What's a screwed racer to do?

[Chris Wire]

As we all debated the lack of ECR sanction at Daytona, it appeared that the region was self-serving in it's position. Well that was reinforced loud and clear at the track yesterday.

The schedule was setup to have enduro qualifying (2 groups) on Saturday morning, with the races being the last two on Sunday. This was fine. Although it created a bunch of downtime, it allowed an early departure on Saturday, and a late arrival at the track on Sunday, which worked out well for me.

So the first enduro goes off at 12:46 pm by my watch. An hour into the race it is raining, not storming but steady. The race finishes on time at 2:16. The rain has stopped. A worker break was to follow on the schedule. By 2:45 we are getting announcements that 'severe' weather is being forcast with high winds and possibly hail. No more rain has fallen since the end of the first enduro and the track is beginning to dry on the banking. By 3pm a pit lane marshall informs me that race officials are deciding whether to go forward or not. By 3:05 the race is cancelled and everyone is escorted off the grid. Bear in mind, IT'S NOT RAINING!!!

At 3:10 the rain starts. It rains steady, not storming, for about 15 minutes before beginning to subside. There is lightning in the area. By 3:30, the rain has mostly disappeared; no high winds, no hail. The lightning is gone as well. By the time I leave the track at 4:05 the rain is history and much of the sky has lightened. I don't see another drop of rain.

So many questions remain unanswered. Why the hair-trigger response? Why the total lack of patience to see what the weather would actually do? Why risk pi$$ing off the 60+ drivers who, to that point, had only been on-track for one 30 minute session on Saturday? Why not start the race right after the first one and attempt to at least get some of the race in? Why not wait, and run the race when the weather cleared, even if it had to be reduced to a 60 min race?

The comments above are facts as best as I can remember. The following are my opinions based on those facts.

The racers got screwed. It appears that the region made a calculated decision to take the money and run. Once a car hits the track, they are under no obligation to refund any money. It also appears that they saw an opportunity to be able to get out early and jumped on it. How else do you explain calling the race when no rain had fallen in more than 1/2 hour? It appears that the decision was made without serious consideration to waiting it out. There were over 420 entrants this past weekend. There were 42 cars and over 60 drivers qualified for the race. It seems that they were willing to take their chances pi$$ing off only 10% of the racers, because hey, at least they get the money.

We are reminded time and again how financially healthy our region is. The money we are sitting on is safe, properly invested, and quite large compared to most regions I would guess. Our relationship with the Daytona speedway is good. I believe the race should have been run in its entirety. I believe that if darkness was going to be an issue, the region should have requested that the lights be turned on and paid to have it done. Where does the region think that the money comes from? It's the members money! And while it may have only benefitted directly maybe 50 or so members, it would have gone a long way toward solidifying CFR as a region that puts its members over the money. Doesn't look that way anymore. How many racers would have been bragging from the roof tops today that they got to run Daytona under the lights? And while it may seem like a small amount of people would benefit from a large cash outlay, I'm quite certain that there are other non-racing regional events that get subsidized to varying degrees by the money that the racers contribute. To underline that point about the money, I walked over to Tech at about 3:45. Tech had long since cleared out, but there was one official listening to the weather radio. I overheard the same description of the storm we were warned about come over the radio again. Oddly though, the storm was 30+ miles south of us between Titusville and Christmas and moving away! When another competitor walked in and jokingly asked if we would all get refunds, this official smiled a big smile and gave the competitor a wink with a slight chuckle. I'm sure inside he was all broken up though.

So what does the region do? The racers are clearly, if not technically, owed something. Free entry into the next enduro? Half-price vouchers for a future race? Or, take it in the shorts if you don't like it. All three are possibilities, what ends up happening will be the real story here.

[JeffYoung]

I am in Raleigh. A buddy of mine towed from Durham to Daytona for the ECR (he runs an IT7 car). 20 hours towing, plus food, gas, etc. He got 30 minutes on track. He's a pretty laid back guy and was not as upset about it as I would have been, but if it stopped raining by 4 there was no reason not to run that race. Wow.

[jlinfert]

Chris,
I absolutely understand what you are saying as far as being pissed about no race and then the weather clearing. I was acually in the Stewards room getting my novice permit when the Chief Steward made the call. It was based on a 2hr tornado watch issued for the Daytona area and the fact that this same system had caused serious havoc in the midwest the day before. I agree it totally sucks for all the group 6 racers who got screwed but I don't know of anybody with a crystal ball. Also anytime there is lightnig within 25 miles of the speedway, they (the speedway management ) shut things down.
Also I gotta say that running for 30 minutes in pouring rain on slicks during my fisrt ever rel race was SCARY. but fun.

[jmark]

I was shooting pics for a couple of friends/racers and I would add that the Speedway pulled their safety crews before the SCCA called the race. There was a tornado warning & thunder could be heard. I don't disagree with pulling everyone in but I do think they could have waited an hour to see. The group 6 race ran in very hard driving rain. By the time I drove out the weather was clearing around 3:30 PM.

[Mike Guenther]

Chris,
I know that this was very disappointing to you and to all of us that paid a lot of money to be there. I took Thursday off to prep the car, Friday to travel, register and tech, two nights hotel, meals for Bob and myself, $310 in batteries for the video camera and radios, gas and entry fee. I was a very expensive 30 minutes.

I do feel that it would be fair for the club to re-imburse 50% to 75% of the registration fee. After all, if it is justified to keep all the money if your motor blows up in the first minute or some other reason that you can not complete your end of the agreement and have to withdrawal, then it should also be fair if the table is reversed. Since it was necessary to cancel the event for safety reasons after we only got 25% of the agreement, it seems fair that the registered racers for group 7 receive some refund.

I can not object to any decision based on the safety considerations of the workers or racers. That's a given. Who knows, maybe the officials are deciding on how to handle a reimbursement as we write. We'll see.

Maybe Best Buy will give me back the $105 for the Sony battery and Speed Com will give me back $210 for the 3 radio batteries, but I doubt that Sunoco will give me anything for the gas I burned. Does anyone want the old batteries before I pitch them?

[Xian]

I was also at the race this weekend and was unfortunate enough to be in the 2nd Enduro. I agree that it really sucks to have the race cancelled and I was one of the half dozen or so cars actually on grid and ready to roll onto the track before the 5 minute warning had expired (they then post-poned rolling cars and kept the grid on hold for about 20 minutes or so).

Here's my $0.02 on the event: Was I ready to roll? Yes. Do I wish we had gone out? Yes. With the information we have now (or even later that afternoon) would it have been safe to run the race? Yes. Let's just take a moment and imagine what could have happened if the weather forecast info had been correct and it had suddenly started hailing... is hitting hail at 135 on the banking your idea of a good time? FWIW, it's not mine. How about the lighting? Would the race be worth it if a course worker had been hit by lighting and killed? I know the last two scenarios are a bit of a long shot but they could have happened if the weather had turned worse instead of better.

The SCCA and Stewards made the conservative and "right" call, imo, and fully have my support and backing.

Christian, who'd also like to note that he qualifed on the pole for ITA for the first time ever so, yeah, this race was going to be a big deal personally.

[Chris Wire]

The SCCA and Stewards made the conservative and "right" call, imo, and fully have my support and backing.[/b]

Look, I'm not out to get anyone struck by lightning or cars damaged by hail, but it never came to that. And the immediacy of the decision with little or no apparent consideration to wait it out just sticks in my craw.

It would have taken very little effort to secure all the corners, clear the grid, bring the workers to safe cover, and attempt to wait it out. We still had the track for 3 hours, and a window of over 90 minutes to at least attempt to get the race in. The seemingly callous response to the fellow competitors question didn't help.

I'll give the region every opportunity to make this right with the racers in the group. The question remains; will they?

[handfulz28]

Sounds like the speedway pulling their crew may have forced the stewards to call it a weekend.

Consider yourselves lucky you didn't get the weather. I was in Wildwood, (Turnpike and I-75) and had to drive through just the edge of it. First time I have EVER come to a complete stop in the middle of a highway (everybody was stopping) because we just could not see 50ft out.

[Junktech]

Lets look at this from a different perspective. What if it was the national cars on grid and 2 races left to run? Do you think they would have canceled those races? The national guys would have been fuming. Lets face it, although the I.T. cars are most regions bread and butter, they are made to feel like the red headed step child. I totally understand Chris' point of view, the issue here is not workers or drivers safety, its about the officials premature canceling of a race. There is no reason why they could not have waited it out, if they would have made an attempt to wait and weather was still a factor, then at least an attempt was made, but to call a race that quickly because a severe storm might hit is ridiculous. After racing and autocrossing in Florida for 18 years, I, like most other racers, have realized the 2 things; don't listen to weathermen and the weather changes constantly. If I had spent the time and money to race last weekend, I would be just as, if not more, upset as Chris is. The officials need to look at some situations as if they were drivers and how their decision will affect the people who have spent a lot of time and money to be there that weekend. What about the driver who traveled 8-10 hours for 30 minutes of seat time, he, and maybe some of his or her friends, may not return. Just my 2 cents.

[RSTPerformance]

Bum deal, I would be pi$$ed as well.

NER has a history of giving partial or full refunds and/or credits when races have been cancled for whatever reason. I think it would be unreasonable if the region doesn't try to make a reasonable accomodiation, even if it is a rescheduled race at a future event, keep the qualifying from the sessions you already completed.

Raymond

[IT728]

The weather got bad enough to briefly postpone activities because of the thunder. The race was cancelled while I was sitting on the grid. No efforts were made to wait for the weather to clear. The weather did clear and the race could have been run based on the time of day. In my opinion a 3 p.m. thunderstorm in Florida doesn't have to shut things down for the day. I would expect 75% of my entry fee back.
A little surprised that such a large facility with a regional airport over the back fence doesn't have a better handle on the storm movements in the area.

[Richy Gonzalez]

I can agree with both Chris and Xian but I really think it was called too quickly. I think we should have waited 30 minutes or so before simply calling it quits. As far as refunds, I never gotten one yet. Even last year's Daytona sprint race, my car never made it on the track and because I didn't go to the timing and scoring that same day (sunday at the end of the day), I was not issued a refund. I have email several officials about the matter several times and almost a year later, I still haven't received my refund. So, what are my hopes or getting a refund this time? I've basically donated $500 to this region just this past year. I wonder if I could have claimed that in my tax refund :mad1:

[Knestis]

My perspective is dorked up because I learned to race in the Northwest, and you don't race if you don't race in the rain.

Problem is that in the SE, the difference between wet and dead can be a pretty narrow line. Based on the information available, an additional 1/2 hour of standing in the pits looking up at the sky wouldn't have changed anything in terms of the input on which the decision seems actually to have been made.

It's also not fair to look at the deal with 20/20 hindsight and use the fact that no severe weather hit as evidence that none MIGHT have.

I LOVE to race in the rain but once lightning and corner workers are in the same patch of land, call it.

The question of refunds is a different one, however...

K

[GKR_17]

GCR 3.2.7.B.2: Cancellation. If an entire event (all classes, all sessions) is postponed for more than 24 hours, it is considered to be cancelled, and entry fees shall be returned. If an event is cancelled during the competition, then the entry fees shall be prorated by class and a reasonable portion of the entry fee shall be returned.

Reasonable in this case would be a full refund for those who didn't race in my opinion. Certainly not less than 75% since only 30 minutes of 120 total (including qualifying) was run.

[Drew Aldred]

GCR 3.2.7.B.2: Cancellation. If an entire event (all classes, all sessions) is postponed for more than 24 hours, it is considered to be cancelled, and entry fees shall be returned. [/b]

The key phrase being "ALL classes, ALL sessions". Since you did get 30 mins of qualifying in, I'd say you're screwed. I'd be stunned if the region gave back anyone a dime, keep hope alive though.

:bash_1_:

[GKR_17]

The key phrase being "ALL classes, ALL sessions". Since you did get 30 mins of qualifying in, I'd say you're screwed. I'd be stunned if the region gave back anyone a dime, keep hope alive though.
[/b]

No. Read it again.

GCR 3.2.7.B.2: Cancellation. If an entire event (all classes, all sessions) is postponed for more than 24 hours, it is considered to be cancelled, and entry fees shall be returned. If an event is cancelled during the competition, then the entry fees shall be prorated by class and a reasonable portion of the entry fee shall be returned.

[CaptainWho]

I've basically donated $500 to this region just this past year. I wonder if I could have claimed that in my tax refund :mad1:
[/b]

Claim them as gambling losses? :D

[camop]

Man what a drag. . .

Sure hope CFR comes through with a refund. I have only good experiences with the people running things in the CFR and I'll bet they come through given a chance.

Neal Norton

[Rob May]

I knew I liked Grafton for a reason. :023:

Looks like it is laid out in the GCR very clearly.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I have been involved in two shortned raced in the past 5 years up here in NER. The first involved a very unfortunate set of circumstances. My run group didn't get to go out on track for our race because a driver had a heart attack and died while racing. The track is governed by the State Police in matters like this and the remaining run groups were sent home. Understadable and whith concern for respect for the driver and his family, nobody asked about refunds, but we all secretly wondered. The region refunded us a portion in the form of a credit.

The other was just last year where we had monumental rain before our Sat race. Lightning, the works. They adjusted the schedule, giving us 100% of our Sat race time first thing on Sunday morning, then shortening the entire Sunday schedule to allow all to run the same time. It was fair and smart IMHO.

I believe some sort of refund is due, but understand the track probably won't refund anything to the region, so the region may have to decide if it to take a loss in this instance. I DO find it fairly offensive that you don't just imply, but you say that you think that the region tried to find a way to take your money and run.
It appears that the region made a calculated decision to take the money and run.[/b] Do you really think they were out to steal from you or were you just overly hot when you wrote that initial post?

[Goodrad]

Drivers,

Got this email this morning.

The Central Florida Region wishes to extend it’s regret at the cancellation of your enduro race this past Sunday. Unfortunately, the predicted approach of severe weather, which included a tornado warning, thunder storms, heavy rain and large hail caused Speedway Management to shut the event down in the name of safety.

The fact that these storms did not materialize to the level of severity predicted is not important. If they had struck with the intensity with which airport weather reports indicated, it would have been a very dangerous situation for all participants had we proceeded with the event. Hindsight is always 20-20. The Speedway chose to err on the side of caution and protect it’s employees, facility and you.

We understand your disappointment. Many of you came a great distance and spent many hours/dollars preparing your cars for competition, not to mention the expectation of competing.

Please bear with us, we are developing a plan to compensate your entry fee. We will be contacting you shortly with that plan.

Sincerely,
Robin Langlotz
Race Board Chairman

[lateapex911]

Well, thats reasonable. I think they'd be wise to issue a credit for a future entry. It would allow them to keep the cash and pay the expenses now, and might encourage extra attendence down the road at a future event. If they've done well and have good cash reserves, there is no reason they can't issue credits. They aren't a run for profit organization. I'd expect 50% credit in the future, and be thrilled if it were 75%. (But I think 75% would be fair)

[Chris Wire]

I DO find it fairly offensive that you don't just imply, but you say that you think that the region tried to find a way to take your money and run. Do you really think they were out to steal from you or were you just overly hot when you wrote that initial post?
[/b]

I don't know why you would be offended, since it wasn't directed at you.

And no, I don't think that the region was out to "steal" from me or my fellow competitors. When I wrote that, perception was reality. The reality was that there was NO severe weather that ever materialized. The reality was that the race was called before any rainfall occured after the small-bore race ended. The reality was that the region provided ABSOLUTELY NO information besides the race is cancelled, clear out and go home. So the perception, based on that reality, is that the race was looking like a washout and rather than wait it out and make an attempt to get the race in, the officials called the race.

Now add to that the latest information that the speedway had some say in it, and maybe the region's hands were tied. I don't know if there was ever any discussion with the speedway to the possibility of waiting it out, and we'll probably never know that. I hope that there was and it was given more than just casual consideration. I hope that the region went to bat for us before just accepting the speedway's decision.

[Chris Wire]

The fact that these storms did not materialize to the level of severity predicted is not important.
[/b]
Sorry Robin, but I call BS. It is important. The storms never materialized AT ALL.



Hindsight is always 20-20. The Speedway chose to err on the side of caution and protect it’s employees, facility and you.[/b]
It's not hindsight, my statements were based on the reality AS IT HAPPENED. Why didn't we just clear the grid, clear the corners, and wait to see what happened? I think it's presumptuous to assume that it's safer to have 60+ drivers and plus crew milling about the pits loading up cars/gear than it is to have the same amount of people sheltered in the garage waiting out the storm.



Please bear with us, we are developing a plan to compensate your entry fee. We will be contacting you shortly with that plan.[/b]
Robin, thank you for responding. I also thank Fran for her preliminary email yesterday. Since this is all we're left with, thank you for attempting to make it right. Still too many unanswered questions though.

[charrbq]

I've never been to Daytona that there wasn't a major rain storm at some time each day. Most often, when lightning or the ability to maintain visual contact between corners is compromised, the event is stopped until safety is restored. It may kink my timing and day, etc., but I've never had a problem with this. I tow 14 hrs. to Daytona...one way. A race normally involves four days of motel rooms, several meals that cost more than I would've spent at home, and a ton of some of the most expensive gasoline in the nation. I've raced in the rain, I've crewed in the rain, and I've even spectated in the rain...it all sucks, but it's better than drag racing.

I've been going to Daytona for this event and others for several years, and I've never been there that the DIMS personel didn't control the SCCA officials actions throughout the event. I've even been told by one of the stewards that the Daytona personel changed their minds with the wind, and told the SCCA what they could and couldn't do, and that it was impossible to keep up.

I've had my membership card taken, because someone forgot to put a dot on my windshield indicating that I was working out of my truck rather than my trailer. I've been refused entry (along with about 60 others) into where my car was located (15 min. before my session), because "security" had found a vehicle within the confines that didn't have a parking sticker. I've had a friend refused entry into a garage area, because "parking was full", even though is never was, and had to tote his tools, etc. across the parking lot to his garage where he'd had to push his car. DIMS personell has changed the entry gate open from day to day regardless of where it was published. And any number of things that are aggravating, at best.

However, I'll go again to race there. I didn't make this race for a number of reasons...one of which was the screwed up schedule that, once again, gave preferential treatment to the whines of the national racers. I would've been saddled with having my buddy crew for my race while he could be doing final prep on his car and then immediately coming in and doing the same for him when I could be loading mine before the Daytona "security" physically ran me out.

I'd venture a thought that, with the mess over the ECR/FER debacle, and the ravings of a certain mad man claiming to represent the sentiments of that area, and the rumors of seperation of the state of Florida, SCCA, combined with the rain cancellation, that no good will came from this last weekend.

Dos centavos

[GKR_17]

Well, thats reasonable. I think they'd be wise to issue a credit for a future entry. It would allow them to keep the cash and pay the expenses now, and might encourage extra attendence down the road at a future event. If they've done well and have good cash reserves, there is no reason they can't issue credits. They aren't a run for profit organization. I'd expect 50% credit in the future, and be thrilled if it were 75%. (But I think 75% would be fair)
[/b]

That may very well be acceptable to most involved. But it is not what is required by the GCR. Cash refund, not credit. The only part up for debate is what amount is 'reasonable'.

[raceit]

The racers got screwed. It appears that the region made a calculated decision to take the money and run. Once a car hits the track, they are under no obligation to refund any money. It also appears that they saw an opportunity to be able to get out early and jumped on it. How else do you explain calling the race when no rain had fallen in more than 1/2 hour? It appears that the decision was made without serious consideration to waiting it out. There were over 420 entrants this past weekend. There were 42 cars and over 60 drivers qualified for the race. It seems that they were willing to take their chances pi$$ing off only 10% of the racers, because hey, at least they get the money.[/b]

This coming from a 2nd driver who only paid a $35 entry. I suppose he wants it all back, despite he may have gotten his $35 worth of track time in qualifying.

[Richy Gonzalez]

This coming from a 2nd driver who only paid a $35 entry. I suppose he wants it all back, despite he may have gotten his $35 worth of track time in qualifying.
[/b]

Great first post, raceit! How mysterious it is that this comes from a brand new account with no point of contact information supplied.

[mattbatson]

Its amazing to me the amount of bad blood for Daytona...from both this board and the production guys too.

Apparently it is a boring track to boot?
Never been myself ....

Perhaps we should all boycott it?

I know from what I've heard that I'll probably never attend... :018:

[Chris Wire]

This coming from a 2nd driver who only paid a $35 entry. I suppose he wants it all back, despite he may have gotten his $35 worth of track time in qualifying.
[/b]

raceit, do you actually race anything? If you did you might understand a bit better that just because the add'l driver fee is $35, doesn't mean that's all the 2nd driver pays. Point of fact, you have absolutely zero idea what I paid.

Way to knock off a tremendous initial post! :wacko:

[Chris Wire]

Its amazing to me the amount of bad blood for Daytona...from both this board and the production guys too.

Apparently it is a boring track to boot?
Never been myself ....

Perhaps we should all boycott it?

I know from what I've heard that I'll probably never attend... :018:
[/b]

I don't have much animosity for Daytona. They do run their facility quite differently than most I've experienced, but once you get used to how they do things it's not such a big deal.

The track is boring to some, mostly in lower powered cars I would guess. I rather enjoy it. I think the more you race it, the more it grows on you.

You can't argue with being in SEDiv and having Daytona, Sebring, Homestead, Road Atlanta, Barber, Charlotte, and VIR. And since you're here, you might as well race 'em all!

[jlinfert]

The track is boring to some, mostly in lower powered cars I would guess. I rather enjoy it. I think the more you race it, the more it grows on you.

[/b]
As The driver of an ITC car (and the don't get any lower powered) I don't find the track boring at all. While it might not be as technically challenging as say Savannah or Sebring or Road Atlanta, where else do you get to go so fast? It also seems to me that while there are a lot more rules to follow at Daytona, hey it's still DAYTONA!!!!!! I mean come on... I wonder what the rules are like at Indy? anywho that's just my 2 cents

Jeff Linfert
CFR #77 ITC Scirocco

[Goodrad]

just got my 160.00 credit in the mail. Thanks Central Florida Region.
Neil

[Xian]

As we all debated the lack of ECR sanction at Daytona, it appeared that the region was self-serving in it's position. Well that was reinforced loud and clear at the track yesterday.

snip...

The racers got screwed. It appears that the region made a calculated decision to take the money and run. Once a car hits the track, they are under no obligation to refund any money. It also appears that they saw an opportunity to be able to get out early and jumped on it.

snip....
[/b]
Well, I think the actions of the race officials and registration since this race was cancelled should make it pretty clear that the abve speculation was not the case.

Thank you CFR!!!!

Christian, who's still bummed about the race but is very pleased with the final outcome of events.

[Chris Wire]

Well, I think the actions of the race officials and registration since this race was cancelled should make it pretty clear that the abve speculation was not the case.
[/b]

Well, as GKR_17 pointed out, it's required by the GCR to respond in this fashion. That is a point of fact I was not aware of at the time of my initial post. My apologies to the region for jumping the gun and not being more aware of the GCR mandates.

I'm glad the region is making restitution, but I don't think it changes our standing within the region any. As was pointed out by Junktech; can you imagine the race being called so quickly with 2 or 3 National races to go instead of a measley enduro?

Many questions......few answers.

Reasonable people can disagree.

[Richy Gonzalez]

Got my refund/credit and just applied it to the Sebring "June Bug" event. I do have give props to Region 83. They did do something for us which, I'm happy to see. Thanks CFR!

[wpspeedracer]

[attachmentid=956]I don't know how many out there remember August 2002 - The Saturday IT race started under the same conditions - The sky to the west was Purple - Thunderstorm - Lightning - and Tornado warnings were in effect and out we went.( btw - it was my First race with rookie school having been completed just 3 weeks prior) The picture attached was taken at the beginning of the race just as the sky turned Pruple.By the third lap it hit. The storm was so sever that there was substantial damage to all awnings/tents that were up. We sat at a total dead stop on the track for over an hour in a torrential downpour unable to move. For a novice - first race, the experience was something I will remember for ever, however, had the race officials had the same warning technology at the time, in retrospect, I would have appreciated them callling the race. I'm sure that some of the SOM's and staff in the booth last week were also there 5 years ago and they remembered what had happened back then which may have contributed to their decision they made last week. I too was disappointed since it was my first time back since the total destruction of my car last August, but I put it aside and I'm looking forward to Sebring in two weeks.

Mark
#54

[its66]

Now Mark, it wasn't quite that bad. Just because it dumped so fast that 10 of us thought we turn left into Lake Lloyd instead of T1, doesn't mean the water was too deep. That was quite a downpour. What was even crazier was the 4 guys that continued to circle the track under the red flag. They probably couldn't see the flag, so figured it must be safe. :bash_1_:

See ya at sebring. lets hope for a dry weekend.