Lime Rock - what are they preparing for?

[Andy Bettencourt]

http://www.limerock.com/news/read/lime-roc...lubwant-to-join (http://www.limerock.com/news/read/lime-rock-race-clubwant-to-join)

Looks like LRP is trying to staff up it's own worker core. Why? Could it be because they know the SCCA grows tired of the crazy costs they jamb down our throats every year? Could it be because Palmer Motorsports Park could actually get built? Could it be because the SCCA is hesitant to staff their Pro events anymore? I love that track but gee-whiz.

[ner88]

LRP has events daily, they need workers everyday, not just weekends.
SCCA/NER is not their only source of income.
There are other regions willing to take on pro events, so let them!

[stevel]

http://www.limerock.com/news/read/lime-roc...lubwant-to-join (http://www.limerock.com/news/read/lime-rock-race-clubwant-to-join)

Looks like LRP is trying to staff up it's own worker core. Why? Could it be because they know the SCCA grows tired of the crazy costs they jamb down our throats every year? Could it be because Palmer Motorsports Park could actually get built? Could it be because the SCCA is hesitant to staff their Pro events anymore? I love that track but gee-whiz.
[/b]

My vote is they're going to use it as another revenue stream. They'll charge clubs an extra fee to staff the track with there own workers, maybe even make it mandatory that you use there workers. In the end it usually all comes down to money.

s

[Jeremy Billiel]

After reading the supps for the May race and this posting, LRP is really pissing me off these days... This is just getting Ridiculous!!!

[dickita15]

LRP already has paid flaggers for test days and some club events, it sound like in this case they are trying to generate a cadre of volunteers to do other thing like gate guards and such in order to save payroll.
Kind of like the candy stripers at the hospital.
Interesting idea.

[lateapex911]

You mean the $53,000.00 in income from SCCA wekends, as well as the increased fees marque clubs pay STILL hasn't stemmed the losses??? :rolleyes:


After reading the supps for the May race and this posting, LRP is really pissing me off these days... This is just getting Ridiculous!!!

[/b]

What about the supps is the issue?? (I'd assume the $400, but we all know about assumptions...)

[gran racing]

I'm trying to think about this from a perspective of someone presently outside of the SCCA or another club - just as someone who loves to watch racing. It would be very easy to have a different viewpoint given some of the BS that’s gone on, but here’s a shot.

I grew-up going to races at LRP with my father and we always thought it would be cool to be involved somehow. If only we had know how easy it is to get involved. Lime Rock is advertising that becoming involved is easy. Using this outside perspective I think that pretty darn cool. Why shouldn’t LRP and other tracks do something like this?

_____________

Racer's hat back on.

I've chosen not to participate in the May LRP event for a few reasons. The biggest is because at some point, things get too expensive to justify. This has become a bit crazy.

[Jeremy Billiel]

_____________

Racer's hat back on.

I've chosen not to participate in the May LRP event for a few reasons. The biggest is because at some point, things get too expensive to justify. This has become a bit crazy.
[/b]

I am with you... I am skipping the May double as well and I will see everyone at NHIS the weekend after.

[lateapex911]

Does anyone know what the NER will charge for the June event, and the format? (Interesting double format for the May event by MoHud)

[RSTPerformance]

Holly crap $399 entry???

This is out of hand. The regions that actually will charge that much are as rediculouse as Lime Rock... Between the "NEW" NARRC rules and these completely outragiouse entry fees, I have to say I am VERY VERY glad that I am not running the NARRC series this year. I also have to say that I think our volunteers in charge are not whom I will vote for next year or work with this year, they are doing an awful job representing the drivers.

I STRONGLY (I can't believe that I am saying this) encourage a boycot of these LRP events. The price is crazy, and the prestige of winning the NARRC championship is out the window IMO. If you win the race or the NARRC championship, you have won because you are crazy enough to pay stupid entries like this. I don't support the regions who don't stand up to the inflation of the cost, and I don't support the drivers whom support a $400 entry for a 2 day regional. I love the track, but the cost is NOT justified.

Raymond "I hope Palmer is a go next year, when I am ready, this is crazy" Blethen

PS: Sorry in advance for the negative comments, but enough is enough

[JohnRW]

Yeah, but that $399 is for a true DOUBLE race weekend at LRP. Doubles usually cost more...and LRP racing costs more (track rental etc. etc.).

Regions are fighing to NOT lose money at race weekends these days. Boycotts will just make it worse at this point. Yeah...if/when Palmer is in operation, it'll be great to thumb noses at LRP, but don't count your chickens yet....

[dickita15]

Holly crap $399 entry???

This is out of hand. The regions that actually will charge that much are as rediculouse as Lime Rock...
[/b]
Raymond for crying out loud what do you want the regions to do, hold a bake sale to subsidize you entry fee. Really unless you know some way to influence management at the track there are only two choices for the region. Price the event so may break even or give up the date.
LRP does not want us there. They think we are too much work. They charge us more than any other club that I know of. They say it is because they need to have more staff for us. All efforts to help them identify where costs can be reduced have been ignored.
Raymond your simplistic view is tiresome.

[RSTPerformance]

I had a nice chat with NER club racing chairman of the board and it is not the regions fault. I was on my way home so I could not edit my post in time before others read it. As it always has been it comes down to suply and demand. SCCA drivers continue to pay outrageouse entry fees, and as the entries continue to rise we continue to pay.

This is a very very bad situation that we are ALL in. Until drivers stop going to events how can the region say to Lime Rock that they are charging to much? If the drivers stop going then the region will loose considerable amounts of money, effecting all of us. If the regions decide to just not go to Lime Rock in protest then other clubs will take the events, and we likely wont get them back. No matter how you look at it we loose. I am not sure what to do, probably knowbody does...

What I can say is that I can't afford even if I wanted to to pay $400 for 2 days (4 sessions) of racing. A 2 day 2 race event or a 2 day 1 race event doesn't give me any more or less track time. Certainly I have a bit more fun with more races and I am willing to pay for that, but I cannot afford this much. If it was a restricted regional, where I recieved more track time or some other benefit then maybe things would be different, but this is a normal weekend with a 2 race format.

The thought that Lime Rock doesn't want us at their track, is even more discouraging as it is a great track to play on.

Raymond "The other thing I don't understand is why doesn't NHIS charge a higher rate? It is obviose we will pay..." Blethen

[Jeremy Billiel]

Raymond for crying out loud what do you want the regions to do, hold a bake sale to subsidize you entry fee. Really unless you know some way to influence management at the track there are only two choices for the region. Price the event so may break even or give up the date.
LRP does not want us there. They think we are too much work. They charge us more than any other club that I know of. They say it is because they need to have more staff for us. All efforts to help them identify where costs can be reduced have been ignored.
Raymond your simplistic view is tiresome.
[/b]

I would agree with Dick here... Raymond your view is too simplistic. I simply do not have that much money to spend on one weekend when you include the test day on Tuesday. Yes I believe the car counts will be down, yes its a lot of money, yes the facility charging too much, but its all about economics.

Our board members are trying their best given that they are in a no win situation. If we loose the day people will scream. If we put the fee at $400 we scream.

Palmer can hopefully alleviate this situation, but there are still many, many hurdles to jump before we get there.

[RSTPerformance]

Palmer can hopefully alleviate this situation, but there are still many, many hurdles to jump before we get there.
[/b]


Agreed to the above, Palmer cant come fast enought!!! I hope it all goes through for the benefit of all of us.

I am just disapointed that I have been priced out of compeating, I don't see it changing next year... I am also still very upset about the NARRC committees decisions on the series and the requirement that people have to pay these entry fees inorder to realisticly compete for a championship.

It is all simple economics, ones that I and MANY others can no longer afford.

Raymond

[BobsAuto]

$400????? I can see why people are upset. And add $3.00 gallon for fuel on top of that (or more in CT). The economy just can't handle that. It's crazy!

[Mattberg]

Not to go off topic but I was just curious. Doesn't this May race usually get pretty good turn out, at least historically?

[theracinglawyer]

When you say $400 is crazy and on top of that $4.00 per gallon for gas. Remember if only 3% of the drivers in this country cut their gas consumption 10% the oil industry would have to bring gas prices down to less than $ 1.75 per gallon. That will not happen because the American public keep paying what ever they, the oil companies charge. LRP will get racers to rent the track if not SCCA then someone else. There is a lot of wealth in this country, too bad its not evenly distributed. Next year $400 may look like a great bargin. Lets hope that new track opens tomorrow.

[Tkczecheredflag]

As a driver I find the $399 a bit steep but to boycott is a double edge sword. If we take a 'pass" on the event we hurt the sanctioning club - ultimately they (MoHud) loose money if drivers don't show - they're already on the hook for the fees - right???

I must say that I found it offensive that drivers were required to attend this event if they wanted the bonus points for the NARRC - OFF's for regions with limited offerings- something about that doesn't feel right. We are all subject to that rule change again in August with NNJR - nothing against these regions but it feels like a political squeeze. I would have favored more opportunities to make a Pocono or Watkins Glenn event, and have an opportuity to earn the "third track" bonus points. It seems like we have plenty of LRP opportunities this year but only a limited supply of Pocono and WGI. My hope is that we look to these other tracks as a way to get off the LRP "nipple." This would make the North Atlantic part of NARRC feel more appropriate. I would even try to add Summit to complement the North Atlantic feel - if that's possible - just a thought not a bitch.

No one was more disappointed than me having to cancel three tix to Gran Am at Laguna Seca for 5-19 because I didn't re-read the NARRC rules carefully enough - my bad. So in addition to the $399 track fee but I had to eat $75 in cancellation fees for the airfare for me and some of my friends - yes I have a friend or two. I can't let the Birthday Boy or Mr Ambassador run away with the ITA NARRC just yet, with their lighter, torque hungry, cam turnin' cars.

On that note, I now hear there will be some local celebrities racing that weekend (5-18, 5-19) at LRP. They are all "dusting off" the the old equipment and a "stable" of cars are on ther way to the "dyno." I couldn't resist the invitation from this group of drivers for the dyno, so I put my car on the hauler too - I was promised some more ponies for my home track event - still looking for a set of "gonads" though - I need all the help I can get. See ya all at LRP if we survive Pocono.

[Rabbit05]

I pose this question :

8 race groups...Usually you get , what, 3 race groups in before lunch, then 5 more after that . How many racing laps are you going to get per race on Saturday ?



If someone wrecks, your race is done. So then you get one more ,what 8-10 lap race in the afternoon ?
Trying to stuff a double in on one day at Lime Rock will be a trick , especially when you have Conn. finest cruising around to ensure motors are off by 6 pm. I would hate to be the last race group. But I hope everything does go well , I am just a bit skeptical on the whole deal.

I might cruise down to watch. But even if I had a car , I would pass on this race. And like Tim, this is my home track too. And I would hate to lose Lime Rock as a place to play.

And, as a side note, hopfully , if all goes well ($) , I plan to have the new car out later in the year... :eclipsee_steering:



John VanDenburgh

VanDenburgh Motorsports
IT......?

[lateapex911]

Holly crap $399 entry???

This is out of hand. ...... If you win the race or the NARRC championship, you have won because you are crazy enough to pay stupid entries like this.[/b]

Raymond...where have you been? Entry fees are a drop in the bucket compared to the costs some guys have spent to win the NARRCs or the NERRCs, or whatever. How about the guy who had new tires every weekend? Thats what, about a thou? Or the new motors twice a season? Think about it....it's not the $400 thats extra, it's the difference between 400 and the old entry fees, which were what, 300? That's $100....you think a guy buying a fresh set of tires every event is going to care? he won't.


I don't support the regions who don't stand up to the inflation of the cost, and I don't support the drivers whom support a $400 entry for a 2 day regional. I love the track, but the cost is NOT justified.[/b]

But........HOW do YOU know what IS or is NOT justified???? It's fine to say that, "Thats more than my budget will allow", but you haven't seen the balnce sheet, have you? Think about it...just the track rental alone of $54,000.00 (I think that's right) requires a lot of entry fees to cover, and thats not to mention all the other expenses a region incurs in staging a race.

Are you saying that the region is hordeing the money and lining the Regional Exectutives pockets with the surplus?


PS: Sorry in advance for the negative comments, but enough is enough [/b]

Negativity has it's place, but the facts count too....

[RSTPerformance]

Jake if you read my other posts you will see, that I "take back" my negativity towards the SCCA regions in reguards to what they are charging for entries at Lime Rock. Unfortunatly the track has us bent over and the regions are forced to charge that much to make ends meet. I would not want to be on the comp board right now and have to face and deal with these astronomical prices Lime Rock is charging. The whole situation sucks, and the reason is Lime Rock, NOT SCCA... we need Palmer Motorsports bad!!!

What I do think that the SCCA regions have messed up is the NARRC. They have taken a great series and destroyed it by involving this Lime Rock scam. I don't think that is right or fair and I still will hold that against all those on the comp boards now, and will likely not vote for them next season or any other time in the future... I still don't understand how $400 entries can be forced on you to run a series that not to long ago was affordable to ENTER at all levels (Not run at the top).

Also Jake... sure some guys spend thousands of dollars, to run, but not everyone. A select few ITA and ITS guys are spending tons of cash, but if you look throughout the whole class (not everone is running for 1st overall), the biggest expences might be similar to mine... That is entries, next comes repairs/maintenance to the car (due to an accidient at Lime Rock into the downhill wall), then tires, then travel.

Again final version... I am disapointed in Lime Rock for making the SCCA regions have to pay so much thus charge so much for entry fees, and I am disapointed in the fact that the SCCA regions are ruining a great series (the NARRC) to try and keep car counts up at Lime Rock so that they can break even. Lastly I am disapointed that I can't afford to race at this level.

Raymond "I will be at Lime Rock at an event or two to cheer all of you on, but I wont buy anything from the track!!!" Blethen

[lateapex911]

Raymond, sorry, I guess I should have refreshed my screen from last night before I replied this AM...

But, your quote does say "Win the NARRC" and only a select few do that...like 4 (5 this year with ITR), and for the popular classes, you're very lucky if you don't have to be on fresh rubber. I know that Anthony made the tires guy very happy, and I think Nick wasn't shy about spending the coin on tires either. And you are complaining about the costs and keep pointing to the entry fees...but..if you run three LRP events this year, you're looking at around $300 more than last year. I wonder what the percentage of the overall budget that works out to be for , lets say Bettencourt, (since he's been fingered as the NARRC likey guy)..I bet it's about 2- 4%.

Yea, it sucks, but it is what it is.

If you want your thoughts known, why not pick up the phone and call LRP? Tell them you object, that they are being unfair, and that you will never support any of their events at the gate.

They'll thank you for your input. Then they'll probably call the PCA and say, "You guys want another weekend?"

It's sad, but the SCCA is not the biggest fish anymore, and LRP has plenty of what they consider to be better options.

[Mattberg]

Exactly how much is the track rental cost? I've heard $40K, $45K, $53K, $54K... Anyone actually know?

[Jeremy Billiel]

Exactly how much is the track rental cost? I've heard $40K, $45K, $53K, $54K... Anyone actually know?
[/b]

$53k

[lateapex911]

It's been changing every year, but I think about 3 or 4 years ago it was in the $23K range. Now it's up to $52 or 53K. if I recall correctly. Thats for a club that races without the 13/13 rule, on a prime weekend. It's less for other clubs, like the PCA or BMWCCA, and less for drivers ed clubs, and less for non prime weekends (November) But I don't know those rates. My friends in the PCA tell me that the rates have risen though.

I should say that my info is not from looking at the balance sheets directly, so take it with a grain of salt....

[Mattberg]

Call it $53,000. If you get 250 cars, after insurance and sanctions, that's around $40,000 in "other" expenses. I'm curious as to what those other expenses are... :blink: You know me. I'm not one that easily accepts generalizations like "it costs money to run the region too." :D

[emarsden]

First let me say Hello to everyone as I am brand new as of today to the board. I will soon hopefully be sharing hundreds of photos that we have taken throughout the years at LRP and the Glen. I am 27yrs old and a scca member currently AutoXing my '88 scirocco 16v. Myself along with my brother and a close friend are working our way up the steps to obtain our comp license. Our goal is to someday race you guys!

This may be slightly off topic however being a avid spectator at scca club events and a paying member, I find it a bit ridiculous that they would not allow spectators into Palmer Motorsports Park when and if it is developed. If this is the case I prefer LRP over the new park. After all, I believe spectating at these events is one of the ways to bring in new members and/or spark interest in the organization as a whole (crew, workers, drivers, volunteers). It worked on us 7 years ago!!

Is NER stating this on their website to ease local minds that their town will not turn into a huge carnival once a year or more? or will they really allow nobody in the facility that isnt competing?

Again sorry if this is off-topic but I figured since we are discussing both tracks it would fit. If not please delete this posting.

[Greg Amy]

Good morning, "wing"...what's your name?

Speaking only from my personal perspective and experience, and most assuredly not for anyone directly related to the project, having spectators at road racing events is very expensive and not necessarily worth it. It requires people to manage them (ticket sellers/collectors, parking), infrastructure to support them (parking, food, drinks, rest facilities), and - most of all - significantly increased insurance costs.

As I understand it, Palmer is not - and never was - intended to be a spectator facility. In fact, neither is SCCA Club Racing. Given our limited funds and options for when/where we can build a track, it was an easy decision to choose to avoid those expenses and hassles dealing with allowing spectators.

Hell, even those SCCA weekends that spectators are allowed (all handled by the track, mind you), I could seemingly count the numbers of spectators on my hands and feet (old saw: what's the difference between NASCAR and SCCA Club Racing? In NASCAR the spectators know all the drivers' names; in SCCA the drivers know all the spectators' names...)

However, that does not mean that folks cannot get in as volunteers and crew, with or without an SCCA membership. All it means is that Dad and Mom and the kids can't show up unannounced and pay $40 (or whatever) to get in and watch from the side of the track.

It was a compromise that was fairly easy to accept... - GA

[emarsden]

My name is Eric. I apologize for leaving that out.

I do have to say that the crowd at the NARRC last fall was quite large. I was a guest of the region so I didnt pay but I am sure somebody made money on all the tickets sold. To top it off the racing was outstanding! I am sure a vast majority of those that watched last year will be back this year. I know I will. The Glen Nationals also draw a large crowd to their venue and I can tell you for a fact that alot of people go there year after year just to watch.

I understand and agree with your point to a degree. Isnt some of racing all about Mom and Dad bringing the kids to watch racing on the weekend? Would you be involved if you were never allowed to watch it because your parents were not directly involved in it(assuming they werent)? I am not slamming the way Palmer wants to do things, to me it just seems a bit odd that a club such as the scca would turn away spectators. It would be a horrible shame however if other facilities adopt this particular way of hosting grassroots events and not allow "the average joe" to watch racing at its finest and nowadays purest. In my experience AutoXing I know I enjoy seeing people on the sidelines in their lawn chairs watching and applauding a good run or even the best time. It would be a horrible shame (not to overuse the term) for those watching road racing to be turned away because they cost to much to be there. Bragging about your drive to win to the only two people you had to pass to get it doesn’t sound very appealing to me...

I didnt mean to turn this topic I just wanted to add my .02 cents :)

I will shutup now as this is another one of those dead end debates :dead_horse:

[dickita15]

Greg is pretty close to the mark here. There is a cost to building a spectator facility that cannot be justified in the business model for Palmer. It is likely that SCCA Club Racing will be the “highest” form of racing at the Palmer track and the truth is not many people will pay to see that. NER is already on record as saying that guests will be welcome. Sign a waiver and come and watch. Other clubs that rent the track can set their own policy for guests but it will be a lot easier for them than it is now at local tracks as there is pressure not to sign in too many guests because that takes money out of the track’s pockets.
This is not about keeping anyone out it is about having a place to race.
No spectators does not keep you out, it only means you (and the other 12 people who care) do not have to pay.

[stevel]

I It would be a horrible shame however if other facilities adopt this particular way of hosting grassroots events and not allow "the average joe" to watch racing at its finest and nowadays purest.
[/b]

A non-spectator event is nothing new. Regions around the country have/are doing this currently for exactly some of the reasons listed here.

just my .02

s

[emarsden]

Thank you for clarifying that. I just read what they had on the website and I took it to be they would be shutting EVERYONE out. Nice to know they are not.

And there are only 5 of us :OLA: haha j/k

Stevel - I have gotten into the non-spectator events by signing the waiver..

[raffaelli]

Interesting. I did not know that there are SCCA events that I could not go watch. At LRP I pay the guy at the gate and off I go.

The non public events limit everyone from getting in? Or just non members?

[Chipper1]

$53,000 is accurate for a 2-day regional (single or double doesn't matter)

Here are the track rental fees per day at Lime Rock over the last 6 years.
2002 $9250
2003 $7700 (this was the "1/2 day" regional don't know the full price)
2004 $11750
2005 $20500
2006 $22325
2007 $26500

The numbers may be somewhat off because LRP has charged a "paving surcharge" certain years which does not show up in some of the numbers. Most of the other expenses go toward taking care of the workers and insurance both of which have gone up.

The other clubs pay less because they run muffled events, but their prices have gone up also.

Our region has not made a significant amount of money on our race, and has been losing money overall since 2005. 2004 was the last "successful" event we had. That year was the last time entry fees were in the low $200s and we were getting 300 cars per race. At the rate we are going with LRP, we will be out of the racing business by the end of '08.

Our board of directors spent a lot of time trying to decide what the entry fee should be. We discussed $450 but, since most of us are racers, we couldn't stomach it. It's a no win economically. I don't expect we will get the 200+ cars it will take to break even.

I would not hold it against anyone who stayed away because of the price. I am not racing this year for family reasons, but I would probably not be doing any races at LRP except for my region's own. It may not be big compared with the whole budget, but there's no reason LRP should be charging more than WGI or NHIS. It's a free market and people should vote with their dollars.

I believe LRPs price escalation has been caused by primarily 2 things: 1. A desire to push SCCA out, and 2. Legal problems the track has had (of their own making) that have increased operating costs. I think LRPs creation of their own worker corps is exactly for reason #1. I think they prefer to do mark club events where people poke around the track in million dollar cars and don't mind paying $1K for an entry.

Final note: This would have been a double NARRC except that NY Region pushed a motion through the NARRC board which only allows the NARRC runoffs to award double points in one weekend and I apologize if that fooled anyone.

Chip VanSlyke
Treasurer, Mohawk-Hudson Region
#94 ITA, Acura Integra

[dj10]

$53,000 is accurate for a 2-day regional (single or double doesn't matter)

Chip VanSlyke
Treasurer, Mohawk-Hudson Region
#94 ITA, Acura Integra

[/b]

You guys really don't pay this do you!?!?!?!? I would understand if this was in Pecos. Guys go find a small local airport and setup a race course and put 10 to 20 K in your pocket!!

[Greg Amy]

Dan, it's just not that easy...

I moved to CT from Texas, damn near 15 years ago (I call it the "the good ole days" life...) Things are just done DIFFERENTLY once you cross over those political lines...

First, while it was reasonably easy to shut down the Ardmore, OK or Big Spring, TX airport in the late 80's/early 90's for a National or two per year, shutting down the 1-of-only-a-handful of airports being used by a lot of "folks with means" is just technically, fiscally, and politically e-impossible. Ain't gonna happen.

Second, space is at a pee-remium out here. Hell, man, you can't even piss on the side of a country road without a camera taking a zoom lens recollection of it (some requiring more "zoom" than others). Can you imagine someone giving up SPACE for something like a bunch of RICH GUYS driving around in their FEE-rarris and Porches?

Nope, "race track" opportunity is hard to find. Yep, "we" pay the fee, 'cause there just ain't any other way to do it...love them "economics"...

[dj10]

Dan, it's just not that easy...

I moved to CT from Texas, damn near 15 years ago (I call it the "the good ole days" life...) Things are just done DIFFERENTLY once you cross over those political lines...

First, while it was reasonably easy to shut down the Ardmore, OK or Big Spring, TX airport in the late 80's/early 90's for a National or two per year, shutting down the 1-of-only-a-handful of airports being used by a lot of "folks with means" is just technically, fiscally, and politically e-impossible. Ain't gonna happen.

Second, space is at a pee-remium out here. Hell, man, you can't even piss on the side of a country road without a camera taking a zoom lens recollection of it (some requiring more "zoom" than others). Can you imagine someone giving up SPACE for something like a bunch of RICH GUYS driving around in their FEE-rarris and Porches?

Nope, "race track" opportunity is hard to find. Yep, "we" pay the fee, 'cause there just ain't any other way to do it...love them "economics"... [/b]



Greg, I'm not telling you to buy time and shut down a "Class D" like Westchester (I flew a cessna 172 in there, was I shocked). :D Like you could afford it anyway. At least look at your options maybe a member know someone who knows someone, etc. etc. It is a absolute shame you are being F$*#!@ with your pants on. Hell, youn's guys are all invited to move to the Pittsburgh Area. Just a thought. B)

[Greg Amy]

I agree, Dan. Problem is, even the Class E airports (there is no Class F airspace around here) are unobtainable...hell, Windham CT airport, which is a dual-runway-and-taxiways, get-some-gas-and-go type of place, would never agree to shutting down for a weekend...think KLBE *everywhere*...hell, even Thompson Speedway, a roundy-round track that *used* to host SCCA weekends "way back when" is not interested in the business.

It's just too congested around here.

Palmer Motorsports Park is the only viable option for the long-term. If that fails, I strongly suggest that club racing in southern New England is doomed...

[Mattberg]

Palmer Motorsports Park is the only viable option for the long-term. If that fails, I strongly suggest that club racing in southern New England is doomed...
[/b]

Well if that's the case, better get those FOR SALE signs out because that project looks to have about as much chance as Paris Hilton becoming a keynote speaker at a Mensa conference... :rolleyes: Not a word in over a year and what seems to be an underfunded one man show... Smell the coffee folks. I really do hope I'm wrong but I've been around the block a couple of times.

Probably should be looking at other solutions like the way regions are spending the proceeds from road racing revenues, how to get better track deals, improving relationships with tracks, marketing events and improving the product. It's hard for me to believe there are $40,000 in "other" expenses at a single event and that there's nothing left to address these things... well I can believe it actually...

Does anyone have a line item breakout of an event's expenses? Just as an aside I know of one region, not doing terribly well financially that last year spent $25,000 on their newletter and $30,000 on beer, not to mention sending three or four officials to the convention, all expenses paid. Think about it.

"...well I can believe it actually..." Try and think back to those insurance issues and the fact that we basically haven't bid the deal out since Pete Lyon and Wisenberg Insurance came along. Around $10,000 a weekend usually. And think about how you're paying for solo, pro racing and everyone else's liability share (the largest portion I'm sure by far). You all still feel the same way? Think about it knowing that solo's doling out a whole $30 while you're paying $400... :bash_1_: Hell you can enter a solo for $40 without even being a member of the SCCA and get all the insurance benefits we do! We can't even bring a friend as a spectator! That's nuts!

And you wonder why entry fees are $400?

[Greg Amy]

Not a word in over a year and what seems to be an underfunded one man show... Smell the coffee folks.[/b]
Matt, pretty much disrespectfully, you have no effin clue about what you write. Seriously.

I quit reading your post right about there...

[Jeremy Billiel]

Matt, pretty much disrespectfully, you have no effin clue about what you write. Seriously.

I quit reading your post right about there...
[/b]

I would agree Greg. Well said...

Matt there are challenges with the track, but please be a bit tactful. We have an entire group of people who are spending hundreds of hours a month on making this happen, myself included. A very large generalization like that is unwarranted IMO.

[RSTPerformance]

I don't know how palmer got into this conversation, other than it is the answer to all our dreams :)

I certainly hope that it happens, and if anything is going to happen as far as getting a new track in the northeast, the people involved (far more than one) will make it happen. It is a great group with some individuals that are far more dedicated that myself and most others that I know combined.

Raymond "I fully support and appreciate the efforts :023: I am just wondering what the statue will look like at the enterance ;)" Blethen

[RussJones]

Matt, you've never been involved with construction projects, thats obvious. The bull-dozing is the easy part. Planning Boards, Sellectmen Meetings, Board of Health, Conservation Commissions are all part of the process, and require countless meetings, paperwork, filings, engineering and legal consulting etc etc.. So shush on that one, you make a fool of yourself..

Lime Rock: They dont want us there, they put a gun to our head and said pay or dont play. Its obviously a business decision, racers dont run the facility anymore. Sadly, several people I know had planned to attend the double and canceled due to the price. Their attitude was F@#! Lime Rock, but LR doesnt collect the fee at the gate. The SCCA region suffers, and less events are planned at LR, LR wins. Lime Rock should consider changing their name to LIme Rock Drivers Ed International.

[ggnagy]

1. The FAA has taken advantage of 9/11 to restrict alternate uses of airports. You know those racers are a very suspicious bunch.

2. Having followed a north east skiing forum, there has been much discussion of the difficulties faced in opening or improving a ski area in the NE. If there is that much of a problem dealing with a few lift motors or water pumps, imagine the hoops needed to be jumped through for a "dirty" race track.... Hmmm.. then again with all the extant ski areas, has anyone thought of trying to pull a Wilmot Hills at a NE ski area?

3. the "non spectator" event is actually a later SCCA development. Originally, SCCA races was all about the spectator. Of course, it was also the case that most regions only put on a handful of events each year at most. Then again, the above mentioned ski forum is full of stories about ski areas that have disappeared since we entered the litigation era, gone away along with our big spectator events.

[dj10]

I hate to say this, but maybe you guys should start autoX'ing, but you'd probably get greef trying to line-up a parking lot. :( From what you guys are writing, it is a sad day in the NE.

[itracer]

I hate to say this, but maybe you guys should start autoX'ing, but you'd probably get greef trying to line-up a parking lot. :( From what you guys are writing, it is a sad day in the NE.
[/b]

Auto-x can't find sites. They are suffering too. Zoning here takes forever, but if you make it that far, it makes the rest seem really easy.

[dj10]

What's really sad is we have more race tracks down here and not enough racers to fill up the the schedule! I was at Nelson Ledges this past weekend and I would be suprised if the had 40 or 50 cars max for the entire double regional weekend!

[lateapex911]

Sometimes, MAtt is tolerable, then, he goes and blows it by being a total asshat.

This is clearly one of those times. But he's "been around the block" and "knows how these things work".

And he's clearly got his finger on the NE pulse from Fl or Palo Alto, or wherever he happens to be.

Dan, seriously, New England has become very difficult to find places to race...parking lots have dried up. I used to run the autocross events in Stratford on the long runway. Ahhh...those were the days! That facility is long gone....they sold that section of the land to developers.

Local Sports car clubs have been reduced to essentially having bi monthy meetings....

If Palmer fails....I hate to think what will happen. It's what, the tenth possiblie site we've found in a ...has it been ? ,..... 5 year search?

Even the NH project, which was supposed to be all about drivers ed, seems to have stalled for the last time.

[dj10]

Dan, seriously, New England has become very difficult to find places to race...parking lots have dried up. I used to run the autocross events in Stratford on the long runway. Ahhh...those were the days! That facility is long gone....they sold that section of the land to developers.

If Palmer fails....I hate to think what will happen. It's what, the tenth possiblie site we've found in a ...has it been ? ,..... 5 year search?
[/b]

Jake, what are the New England SCCA Regions going to do? They can't be making any money on LRP, people are now racing there now because of the prices, so I hear. Are NHIS and Palmer are your 2 hopes for the future? Can your regions sustain themselves? Your future looks bleak for the roadracing aspect. :( Maybe it's time for another revolution up there in New England. Maybe a tea party or 2. ;) I'll move up there, just vote me in as Governor of Mass. my 1st act would be to level the west side of Boston and put in one hell of a race course and I'd get it done faster than the CRB can decide what to do with the ECU rule. B)

[Doc Bro]

Dan,
Leave Boston alone it's not a bad town....Hartford..now thaaaat's another story. I once won a contest and the Grand Prize was a week vacation in Hartford....second place was two weeks!!!!


Hartford would make a great race track. "New Englands rising star"....what a joke.


R

[tdw6974]

The permits, paper work can be damn near insurmountable and take years. Take a look here http://www.rauschcreekracing.com/rcmp/index.php All the permits,Studies are DONE a Financial backer is needed. I'm sure if when Palmer has all the permits etc etc then they too will need the financial backing also. A shame that Rausch Creek can't be completed Yes it is further from NE than Pocono but has easy access. Tom W :eclipsee_steering:

[tdw6974]

[quote]
I'm curious as to what those other expenses are...
Matt, Perhaps the treasurer of one of the Calif regions would give you exact figures on a race. Here are some of catergories that go into a typical Race weekend. Program Entry list printing, Worker Fund Payments(after driver Donations), Registration & Photo ID supplies, Trophies, worker favors, Insurance, Sanction fees,Track rental,worker/driver crews party, meal tickets for workers, NYSRRC assesment, NARRC assessment,MARRS assessment, When track is rented if we run over then overtime charges apply. TW :eclipsee_steering:

[bg43wex]

race weekend cost break down for a single regional with spectators @ LRP

rent 53000.00
insurance 32.00x200= 6400.00
lunch tickets 2 days 200x8.00= 1600.00
end of day party friday 175x12.00= 2100.00
end of day party sat 60x6.00= 360.00
beer+wine 375.00 per keg 1200.00
lrp golf carts [email protected] per day 400.00
NARRC fee 200x6.00= 1200.00
snacks,ice+fluids 300.00
trophies 1050.00
sanction fee 450.00
volunteer giveaway 600.00
SRF+FE compliance fee 270.00

total expenses $ 68930.00


I would call this a low ball estimate I'm probably 3-5% low, food prices were based on 06 #'s
food and liquor other than snacks+ice must be purchased from LRP (contract).

if you could guarantee 250 entrants $350.00 could cover the costs, unfortunatley we have no guarantee anyone will show.

because we can't predict with any certanty how many will enter you would plan for 180 and hope for 200.

[RSTPerformance]

Thanks Brian... I also appreciate the "going for 180, hoping for 200" It is realistic.

Raymond

[RKramden]

race weekend cost break down for a single regional with spectators @ LRP
[/b]

Some missing items:

2% fee from the Region board of directors - $1,300
This races share of the road racing board's operational costs - about $4,000
Money earmarked for new track development - ????

Operational expenses are those things not directly related to a single race, yet are expenses that must be covered. For example:

Year end trophies
Phone bills
Photo IDs
Radio equipment and service (F&C net and Stewards net)
Tech Equipment
Fire extinguisher servicing
Sound control equipment and service (yearly calibration)
Emergency services equipment and service
Postage
Printing
Timing and scoring equipment and supply.
F&C School and Fire School

So, it looks like Brian's numbers are more like 10% low, and that doesn't include anything for new track development.

[raffaelli]

Wow, with all this doom and gloom...wondering if I should drive my new race car to a bridge so I can jump off it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Oh it's not doom and gloom, it's just people coming to realize what it takes to race at LRP.

$89 more than a typical NHIS Double. Great? No. A death sentance? Hardly.

[lateapex911]

race weekend cost break down for a single regional with spectators @ LRP

rent 53000.00
insurance 32.00x200= 6400.00
lunch tickets 2 days 200x8.00= 1600.00
end of day party friday 175x12.00= 2100.00
end of day party sat 60x6.00= 360.00
beer+wine 375.00 per keg 1200.00
lrp golf carts [email protected] per day 400.00
NARRC fee 200x6.00= 1200.00
snacks,ice+fluids 300.00
trophies 1050.00
sanction fee 450.00
volunteer giveaway 600.00
SRF+FE compliance fee 270.00

total expenses $ 68930.00

[/b]

I have dipped just a toe in this process, but one item bears repeating...the fees you see above for the food, beer, wine and carts are non negotiable. If you dont want to pay them, you don't race at Lime Rock.

And that brings up yet another "squeeze" in the situation. Worker numbers are fading, and reducing the "benefits" they receive (food, wine, beer, giveaways) won't help that.

So, while it appears on the surface that there is an area that could be trimmed, I suggest that's not really the case.

[Dave Patten]

Jake,
The NH project you refer to is, I assume, Club Motorsports, Inc in Tamworth, NH. The developers have every State and Federal permit required to build the project. A portion of the Army Corps of Engineers permit is being questioned by the opposition, but the approval has not been rescinded. CMI requires resolution of the ACOE permit and only one Town Planning Board, Special Use Permit to have everything needed to build the facility. The SUP approval has been denied by the Planning Board and is now under appeal. Tamworth has no Zoning Ordinance, as such there is no Town authority to appeal to on the Planning Board’s decision, CMI was forced to take court action in the Carroll County Court to question the correctness of the Planning Board’s decision.

The project opposition comes from a local group called Focus:Tamworth, specifically formed to oppose this project. One of this group’s key members is Kate Vachon, who is rumored to be a “trust fund baby” worth $400 million. She appears to be funding the opposition's efforts. Focus Tamworth has initiated 2 of the 3 court cases currently surrounding this project. FT’s tactics appear to be, cause as many delays and expenses as possible, in hopes the CMI’s investors will give up on the project.

CMI’s investors have been reported as having $500 million in personal net worth. The 256 acres of land that the track will sit on is owned by CMI. This is a very well funded group of individuals that are very passionate about and committed to completing this project. I have personally been in contact with both the current and past CMI presidents. They and all of CMI’s investors are resolute in completing this project.

Yes, the progress is stalled at this point pending court decisions. But with the current investment in land, engineering costs and the investor’s passion to build the facility, they are not going away quietly or without an all out fight.

This project, completed or not, will have an impact on the motorsports community in New England. It may even set new case law in NH before it is over. If not for any other reason than a learning experience, the progress of CMI’s project should be watched.

[Dave Patten]

Brian,
Thanks for the cost breakdown of an event at LRP. This “real world” cost information is what a typical driver needs to understand. Track rental is the single biggest cost, but the other expenses are what complete the event and make it happen.

It’s like renting your first place, yah the rental is the biggest bill, but you still need heat, electricity, water & sewer, telephone, cable, etc to make it a place to live.

[lateapex911]

Dan, the above post is a great insight into the workings of the area, and the difficulty in getting a track built.

If I read Daves post corrrectly, the area the track is located in has no zoning, but the opposition is such that the project is going into it's (I think) 4th year...and no pavement has been laid for the track.

I can't help but wonder what the business model is....how can such a project turn a profit?

To me, this one seems to be a battle of wills, with reasoning and profit as secondary considerations.

Dave, correct me if I am wrong, but IIRC, this track won't help ease the track congestion for SCCA directly as the agreed upon noise limits are way below what SCCA could meet. Am I correct on that?

It could, however, add club dates, and possibly steal business form Lime Rock and NHIS in that regard, but, it is hours of travel further from Lime Rock for the drivers in the all important NYC region that Lime Rock serves, so that aspect will be minimal.

Assuming of course, that the project comes on line at any point in the future.

[Mattberg]

Greg,

If I'm so off base, please enlighten us as to the progress of Palmer. To not hear one word of news in over a year is more than suspect. I know you're hoping for the best, as am I, but you do have to plan for the worst. I'm sorry if opining analysis and assesment of a business based on what's available upsets you but I call em' like I see em'. You can cry foul but better to offer up something material. Why not ask Dick what the status is. He's been sort of quiet here considering he's the point man. Another bad indicator. Knowing Dick, if things were going well he'd have been all over me by now. :D Who better to ask?

And Russ, I've built and developed more than twenty million square feet of commercial and residential property and facilities. I know what's involved before, during and after. From geologicals to financing. From my experience it looks to me as though Palmer has either over estimated their ability to push the deal through to permit, not paid off the right people or simply run out of money. A combination is my guess but suffice to say, as in most of these race track ideas, I think they may have bit off more than they could chew. Perhaps they were speculating on the real estate and looking to refinance on the appreciation of the property in a hot market?... oopps. Whatever it is, the project has all the telltale signs of one in dormancy if not trouble.

What you need to do is stop with the rah rah dreaming about something that doesn't exist and address what you have, not what you dream of having. It takes away from the effort of fixing things as they stand. the "screw Lime Rock, Palmer is coming" is a dangerous game. My mentor once told me, "you can always sell something you don't have." Keep selling Palmer as an alternative and ignore the problems at Lime Rock and you create a larger problem down the road. Work on fixing what's already in hand.

I'm telling you. Look into your regional finances. You will find waste of significant proportions as well as reassignment of revenues to non road racing activities. I see some ugly numbers coming forth. Do you really believe the bill for 24 trophies is over $1000? Which regional official's buddy is in the trophy business? $4000 in party stuff? $600 for favors? If that's true, their spending more than half of what they spend on trophies on themselves. Think about that next time you see an official with an event specific embroidered $30 golf shirt walking around the paddock. $1200 for a board fee? NARRC, NYRRC, etc fees? It's all going to the same place. It's just dressed up differently to justify it. THere are so many hands in the pot trying to derive cash for their little peice of the club it's frightening. Pork. I got really upset a few years back when they made drivers buy silly helmet envelopes with medical information. The guy selling them of course was a buddy of one of the regional officials. That's just wrong. Making a useless purchase mandatory so your friend can make a few bucks is commonplace though.

I recently read that the Pro Solo portion of an autocross event was FREE. No entry fee was charged. Who do you think paid for that? There's still an insurance charge for the event. Who paid for that? We're still paying for solo's liability insurance on top of that. You think that $32 per driver is going entirely to road racing? Get real. Start questioning the finances and stop supporting these regional officials as hero volunteers. They're not. Some of them are even criminals. YES, criminals. Soloist Carly Chupta ring a bell? How quickly we forget... They're guys pursuing their hobby just like us. But they need money and they need votes. In this case the money doesn't have the votes. Racers don't get officials elected. Run a pro racer platform and you lose. The system is broken. Officials are buying votes by NOT cracking down on this reassignment of revenue or speaking out about it. If they did, they wouldn't get elected and their hobby of being "in charge" and in control would go away. Until you see that get ready to shell out more and more every year in supporting those non-racing programs that keep officials and the voting majority happy.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Matt, being on the finance committee for PMP and BOD, as the treasurer, I can tell you that Palmer Motorsports Park is not dead. In fact, we are getting very close to submitting the permits to the town. We are not talking it up because we are in the process of talking to investors and at this stage it is very critical to keep quiet.

That's it! Please don't read silence as being a bad thing per se.

[Greg Amy]

(Why oh why oh why do I let myself get into these pissing matches...??)



To not hear one word of news in over a year is more than suspect.[/b]
Matt, you're ignorant, in the truest sense of the word.

- The committees spent a couple of hours at our regional convention this past January giving us all a detailed update on the progress. Without wasting a lot of my time explaining the details to you (I've got a graduate presentation tonight and, believe it or not, that's a bit higher on my priority list than you are) it's moving along quite nicely. Shockingly so.
- On a personal level, I have direct contacts with several of the folks directly involved in this track progress, and I'm personally satisfied that it's moving along. In fact, I'd even consider becoming an investor, given the opportunity.

Now, if we're to subscribe to the "Mattberg is the center of the universe" theory, then we can only conclude that since Mattberg isn't aware of the facts, then the facts don't exist. Well, pretty much everyone - except one person - doesn't subscribe to that.

Rest assured that if ignorance is truly bliss, you're one happy moth*****ker.


Knowing Dick, if things were going well he'd have been all over me by now. :D Who better to ask?[/b]
Mr Bliss, I do speak with Dick, on a regular basis. And the reason Dick is not "all over you now" is because he is a much higher class person than I and he, too, has much more important things to worry about than keeping Mattberg informed.

You really, really, really have some issues to get resolved...

[bg43wex]

Some missing items:

2% fee from the Region board of directors - $1,300
This races share of the road racing board's operational costs - about $4,000
Money earmarked for new track development - ????

Operational expenses are those things not directly related to a single race, yet are expenses that must be covered. For example:

Year end trophies
Phone bills
Photo IDs
Radio equipment and service (F&C net and Stewards net)
Tech Equipment
Fire extinguisher servicing
Sound control equipment and service (yearly calibration)
Emergency services equipment and service
Postage
Printing
Timing and scoring equipment and supply.
F&C School and Fire School

So, it looks like Brian's numbers are more like 10% low, and that doesn't include anything for new track development.
[/b]

Actually Dave my #'s are correct, the items you mention come out of our total opperations budget which you and I know is based on us turning a profit at each event.

[lateapex911]

Greg,

IWhy not ask Dick what the status is. He's been sort of quiet here considering he's the point man. Another bad indicator. Knowing Dick, if things were going well he'd have been all over me by now. :D Who better to ask?
[/b]

Ever heard the term "Less is more"

What the Palmer project needs is the right people doing the right things at the right time, and publicity is NOT needed. I trust our point men to do the right thing, and they will go public at the right time. I expect you will retort by calling me a fool, which will actually make me feel better for my decision.


. ..........A combination is my guess but suffice to say, as in most of these race track ideas, I think they may have bit off more than they could chew. Perhaps they were speculating on the real estate and looking to refinance on the appreciation of the property in a hot market?... oopps. Whatever it is, the project has all the telltale signs of one in dormancy if not trouble. [/b]

Typical Mattberger comment here. Shoot mouth off with ZERO knowledge of actual facts. Which is why I suspect every last utterance that comes from your mouth as a complete waste of air and time. I actually know the topic you speak of, and you clearly do not.


What you need to do is stop with the rah rah dreaming about something that doesn't exist and address what you have, not what you dream of having. It takes away from the effort of fixing things as they stand. .... Keep selling Palmer as an alternative and ignore the problems at Lime Rock and you create a larger problem down the road. Work on fixing what's already in hand.[/b]

Thanks for the advice, Mr Weisberg...but tell us, what can be done, in REAL terms, real numbers based on REAL facts, to significanlty help the situation? And, what have you DONE...actually DONE , working withIN the SCCA on a regional level that will cause us to have ANY faith in your suggestions???. And don't spout your paranoid conclusions about buddies in the trophy business! Where'd you come up with the "24 trophies for $1000 dollars" conclusion? Seems to me that there are a lot more than 24 trophies given out at a normal regional....

Again, don't spount...do homework and report back with REAL numbers. The ones you've alluded to are not working in your favor. :


I'm telling you. Look into your regional finances. You will find waste of significant proportions as well as reassignment of revenues to non road racing activities. I see some ugly numbers coming forth. Do you really believe the bill for 24 trophies is over $1000? Which regional official's buddy is in the trophy business? [/b]
....see above ...


$4000 in party stuff? [/b]
What part of "mandated by contract" don't you understand?


$600 for favors? If that's true, their spending more than half of what they spend on trophies on themselves. Think about that next time you see an official with an event specific embroidered $30 golf shirt walking around the paddock. [/b]
Nice misleading example....favors includes huundreds of items that go to workers who stand in the heat and rain to drag our cars out of the mud after we bonehead a shift, like umbrellas and such. Listen, you spin it to make it sound like the regional officials in this area are buying themselves Brooks Brothers suits! For once in your life, shut up, listen, get real facts and THEN spout your mouth...


THere are so many hands in the pot trying to derive cash for their little peice of the club it's frightening. Pork. I got really upset a few years back when they made drivers buy silly helmet envelopes with medical information. The guy selling them of course was a buddy of one of the regional officials. That's just wrong.[/b]
Oh? Better to give the business to a non buddy who could charge more?

Making a useless purchase mandatory so your friend can make a few bucks is commonplace though. [/b]
Yea, the what was it, a dollar? It really broke everyone's bank. I didn't race that season due to the extra expense. Seriously, sure, maybe somebody made a little money selling some silly little item, but honestly, is THAT the issue with Lime Rock! OF COURSE not! Point denied, move on.....


I recently read that the Pro Solo portion of an autocross event was FREE. No entry fee was charged. Who do you think paid for that? .......bla bla bla bla ...my ears are bleeding... bal bla ....get ready to shell out more and more every year in supporting those non-racing programs that keep officials and the voting majority happy.[/b]

Back to the discussion ....and no more spewing about your current obsession, the evil autocross empire....... make your case, make it about THIS situation, and back it up with the REAL numbers, just like they made you do in Junior high School. Actually take the time and open your mind and ears to determine IF the favor expenses, for examle really ARE a waste, and if they represent a significant item. If you do, MAYbe somebody will listen, but at this point, your wecome matt and your credibility are so thin that nobody but historians can find them...

[Andy Bettencourt]

http://damaged.anime.net/archive/go-away.jpg


I have no problem with people questioning the establishment but geez Matt, if this is how you 'attack' other issues you have 'championed', you have lost even more credibility. You have no facts yet you spew like you have been involved since day 1. Bleh.

[dickita15]

Ok Matt you drew me out. As Jeremy and Greg said Palmer is progressing. We have had delays but NO bad news. The town remains supportive. We have another hearing in less than two weeks. Got good news this morning. The endangered species survey was done and we are clean. This survey can only be done at this time of year. As Greg said a full presentation was given at NER’s annual meeting with budgets, pictures and detailed plans. A few weeks late we gave the same presentation to VSCCA at their request.
This is not a slam dunk but I am very optimistic. The reason I am not going around on the web about this project is that does nothing to move the project forward.
In your big pile of crap above you got one paragraph right.





What you need to do is stop with the rah rah dreaming about something that doesn't exist and address what you have, not what you dream of having. It takes away from the effort of fixing things as they stand. the "screw Lime Rock, Palmer is coming" is a dangerous game. My mentor once told me, "you can always sell something you don't have." Keep selling Palmer as an alternative and ignore the problems at Lime Rock and you create a larger problem down the road. Work on fixing what's already in hand.

[/b]

[bg43wex]

Greg,

If I'm so off base, please enlighten us as to the progress of Palmer. [/b]

just yesterday the NER BoD met and was preparing to send you a personized windshirt with all the palmer updates embroidered on it



And Russ, I've built and developed more than twenty million square feet of commercial and residential property and facilities. I know what's involved before, during and after. From geologicals to financing. From my experience it looks to me as though Palmer has either over estimated their ability to push the deal through to permit, not paid off the right people or simply run out of money. A combination is my guess but suffice to say, as in most of these race track ideas, I think they may have bit off more than they could chew. Perhaps they were speculating on the real estate and looking to refinance on the appreciation of the property in a hot market?... oopps. Whatever it is, the project has all the telltale signs of one in dormancy if not trouble. [/b]

So, let me get this straight you are in favor of pay off's to obtain permiting on projects that "you have developed" very interesting


What you need to do is stop with the rah rah dreaming about something that doesn't exist and address what you have, not what you dream of having. It takes away from the effort of fixing things as they stand. the "screw Lime Rock, Palmer is coming" is a dangerous game. My mentor once told me, "you can always sell something you don't have." Keep selling Palmer as an alternative and ignore the problems at Lime Rock and you create a larger problem down the road. Work on fixing what's already in hand. [/b]

Your Mentor, who is that? P.T. Barnum or Ron Pohpeil ( Matt always remember just set it and forget it )



I'm telling you. Look into your regional finances. You will find waste of significant proportions as well as reassignment of revenues to non road racing activities. I see some ugly numbers coming forth. Do you really believe the bill for 24 trophies is over $1000?[/b]

24 trophies? we have the potential of 42 classes at a regional race and some even have enough competition for second, third and fourth place trophies. How about closer to 100 trophies, but what would you know about it anyway?



Which regional official's buddy is in the trophy business?[/b]
DOUCHE BAG



$4000 in party stuff? $600 for favors? [/b]

Must purchase food from LRP it's in the contract. but you don't care, contracts mean nothing to you.



If that's true, their spending more than half of what they spend on trophies on themselves. Think about that next time you see an official with an event specific embroidered $30 golf shirt walking around the paddock. [/b]

Sorry Bunky not in NER, no event specific trinkets in 4 years, but of course you already knew that.

EOY is the only time we hand out embroidered merchandise.


$1200 for a board fee? NARRC, NYRRC, etc fees? It's all going to the same place. [/b]

Where? the NARRC points and EOY trophy fund? I believe the class winners recieve this cash and awards.



I got really upset a few years back when they made drivers buy silly helmet envelopes with medical information. [/b]

What a surprise something upset you, did the buck blow your whole race budget?


The guy selling them of course was a buddy of one of the regional officials. That's just wrong. Making a useless purchase mandatory so your friend can make a few bucks is commonplace though. [/b]

Yup, that was the whole scam you figured it out. can you help us with the linberg baby mystery when you get a second?

people call me Sarcastic, but man you take the cake. I hope your blow up doll doesn't leave, because then you wouldn't have anyone to agree with you.

and always remember never let the facts get in the way of one of your arguments. (they never have before)

[Ed Funk]

Brian, try to say what you really feel!!

My expertise as a veterinarian may be of value here, think about euthanasia as an option---then we can find Matts dog a good home! :happy204: Never met the guy, but I wish he'd walk up and introduce himself sometime, there's always room for one more asshat in my collection. ;)

[Dave Patten]

I like the new Brian Mushnick.

You strip away the official positions and titles and what do you get, true first amendment speech and some released rage!

Way to go Brian, PC is WAYYYY overrated!


Talk about a thread going off topic!

NHIS has a volunteer group as well; they call them “Ambassadors”. I’d bet this is the same type of volunteers that LRP is looking for. These people “work” the Pro events as escorts or guides for VIP’s, politicians and sponsor type people. They take them around the facility and show them the “behind the scenes” operation at the race track. If you have ever been to a NASCAR race at NHIS these are the guys in the red jackets.

[Butch Kummer]

Ain't the internet wonderful? We really ought to take up a collection and pay Matt fair market value for the entertainment he brings to our lives every day. And I heard that Barry Hair is the legal representation for both Lime Rock Park AND the RE's brother-in-law that runs the trophy shop, but then I can't divulge my sources of that information.

Jake was correct. The secession of CFR from the ECR (and SEDIV) is yesterday's news but Matt just keeps on keeping on. Hang in there guys, he'll get tired soon enough of resolving all of NEDIV's obvious shortcomings and decide take on Alaska Region's soon-to-be-announced plan to have Club Racers fund their budding snowmobile autocross series.

[RSTPerformance]

The above conversations are very informative for the most part and I want to thank all those whom have given input, or "eased" my anger at the situation... I guess thats one thing that is great is that sometimes we vent and a lot of people come to the rescue and give you the other view... Sorry Matt I didn't read your post, as at this point I don't think I am worried about the decision that the Northeast regions are making when spending the cash, especially on the "other" expences not included in track rental. IMO the only expence that catches my eye and needs fixing is the Lime Rock track rental. It would be nice if someone from Lime Rock gave input on why they feel the need to charge so much for these days. Is that track in that much trouble?

Now with all that behind me I am trying to look forward as others have in this thread so let me think outside the box a bit with alternate options... and see what people think?

From what I have gathered; With Lime Rock as expensive as it is, some people (like myself) will not pay that much to race, thus this could result in lower than normal entries, and at some point the regions will start loosing money. From what I understand this is a more seriose issue for the smaller regions whom depend on the Lime Rock events to try and break even at the year end. This means that this entire issue has a huge effect on some of the regions. Most of the drivers probably could care less about the politics and could care less what region is running an event as long as it is SCCA as a whole, however thier is that select group in each region that makes the entire thing possible who does care for thier individual regions success. IMO the regions in trouble and/or the regions whom will be most successful need to start thinking now how to re-alighn themselves as this is only going to get worse over the next few years.

Possible solution? Why don't we run a couple muffled events (Be it a new track in Tamworth or at Lime Rock)? Other clubs/organizations are successfully running muffled events, why can't we?
SCCA PDX events have proven successful with a following of people and it can generate a profit to help supliment other events (Be it Road Racing, Rally, or Solo).
In addition to PDX events, I hate to leave out Big Big bore and open wheel cars, but why not have a restriced regional??? All the IT cars at a minimum could run muffled and we could have a very full restricted regional for all the classes that would be able to run muffled cars. Sure some may argue that it would cost over $89 to install a new mufler, but go to the junk yard or use the one you saved that you stripped off the car when it came with one...

Just trying to think outside the box... and we all know that eventually here in the Northeast we will all be running with mufflers... All the neihbors seem very noise sensative no matter where we go to play.

Any other ideas outside the norm for us here in the Northeast?


Raymond "How much is a muffled event at Lime Rock?" Blethen

[lateapex911]

Raymond, in answer to your question, "Why does Lime Rock charge so much?"....because they can.........

They seem to have no trouble filling the calender. It's pure supply and demand.

And it's not about the mufflers..or it's not JUST about the mufflers. The unmuffled dates DO bring a premium, but it's also about RACING. Events like PDAs, and Audi club lapping days have much different rules...and Lime Rock apparently likes that better. We race, and with that, we tear up equipmant and the facilty on occasion. There are costs associated with that, and Lime Rock uses that to justify the extra expense.

Simply, the NY metro region has a lot of money. That wealth brings with it cars. Sports cars and people who want to drive them. So, with a lot of people wanting to do lapping days and marque events, Lime Rock is in the enviable position of essentially having a monopoly on the local market.

When you hold all the cards, you can be king.

[Doc Bro]

Dick,

I'm happy to hear of the progress of PMP. I think this will be very positive for the region. I personally comend you and all others involved for the many hours spent making it happen. I think you need a turn or short chute or something named in your honor when all is done.


Matt,

Thanks for being our "every crowds got one" guy. It really takes some big ones to spend the amount of time you spend trying to offend everyone. Your 20+ million s.f. deals might be beleivable if you didn't waste so much time indulging youself on this BB. I know lots of folks who do what you claim to do, frankly you don't seem to fit the mold. I'll call your bluff.....big hat, no cattle.

R

[dj10]

Dan,
Leave Boston alone it's not a bad town....Hartford..now thaaaat's another story. I once won a contest and the Grand Prize was a week vacation in Hartford....second place was two weeks!!!!

Hartford would make a great race track. "New Englands rising star"....what a joke.

R [/b]

Doc I can't see putting a race course in a state that is smaller than most peoples farms here in PA. ;) Maybe we should level all the houses in a 10 mile radius around Bridgehampton and bring that great track back from the dead. :D Oh and while were at it lets put in a super highway for bridgehampton traffic only from the NE, W and S. That should eliminate a few more homes and people that bitched about one of the greatest tracks ever.

[lateapex911]

Dan Jones for President! Maybe Dan Gurney can be convinced to join as your running mate!

[gran racing]

Nothing new being said here - PDX on Friday, Race on Sat. Why not?

As Jake said, there are many people in the Lime Rock area that have $$$$. How many Lotus', new Corvettes, and other expensive cars were there at the SCDA Glen event this weekend? Lots. For what it's worth, many HPDEs are charging $300 + for a muffled HPDE day at LRP. They sell out quickly and often don't allow people to register early to allow everyone an opportunity to stake their claim. Now only if I could find that money tree farm!

[RKramden]

How many Lotus', new Corvettes, and other expensive cars were there at the SCDA Glen event this weekend? Lots.[/b]

In all fairness, SCDA puts on a much better show than I have ever seen any SCCA region do for a HPDE. They have first class (or better) events that make most others look like newbies. They run like clockwork, and the track time you get leaves you exhausted at the end of the day, enough so that it is a concern that you are getting too tired to do a good job driving. They are 100% focused on providing a quality experience for their customers, not focused on running an HPDE event "per the book" like some SCCA regions. SCCA runs great race events, but it looks like they try to run their HPDE events like races, and it doesn't always work. There is a lesson there, but many SCCA hard core folks don't want to hear it.

(I'm not 'dising SCCA, but saying what a great job SCDA does. I've been a SCCA member for over 25 years. I've never been a SCDA customer, but they have paid me to flag a few of their events.)

If you want to have the **best** HPDE then you need to do better than SCDA. IMHO, they currently set the bar for quality HPDE events.

[lateapex911]

Yup, after just getting back from instructing for them at the Glen with Dave Gran, I have to agree, the events run very well. The schedule thing is great. I think part of that stems from a little time built in for clean up, but also from the fact that they are very careful with the run groups and who gets to move up. They take two and four wheels off seriously, (mandatory black flag) and two spins gets you a mandatory early exit.

The cars were pretty impressive as well. About a dozen Lotus Elise and Exiges, a couple Z06 and other assorted current gen Vettes, a 69 Camaro with fuel cel, a bevy of newer 911s (996s, 997s) and a GT3 version, plus a token Caddy CTS-V, and a flock of Subaru WRXs along with the usual E36, & E46 M3s.. My old 911 was the runt of the litter, LOL.

[gran racing]

Dave,

Speaking as a customer and now as an instructor for SCDA, they are absolutely top notch all the way from their scheduling and keeping things on time, amount of track time received, how friendly and helpful everyone is, and lets not forget the class room instruction.

At first I was thinking that SCDA and SCCA's PDXs are somewhat competitors, but maybe that isn't so much the case. Since SCDA has worked hard during the years and gotten the right formula for running these types of events, maybe SCCA should consider hiring them as a consultant?

[Andy Bettencourt]

At first I was thinking that SCDA and SCCA's PDXs are somewhat competitors, but maybe that isn't so much the case. Since SCDA has worked hard during the years and gotten the right formula for running these types of events, maybe SCCA should consider hiring them as a consultant? [/b]

While I agree with you guys that these events run well, what you are asking is like asking a small local autox club whose events run smooth and well - to consult on how to make the Solo 2 Nationals run better.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.

[RSTPerformance]

I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on, but as far as SCDA and SCCA PDX type events are concerned I don't think they are at all the same. SCDA is a private organization that delivers a product to make a profit. SCCA is designed as a club event to allow its members to have fun and enjoy themselves. SCDA pays the workers (some way or another) while the SCCA (PDX or otherwise) events don't. The list could go on and on on how they are different. SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not recieving the same product. I don't think anyone at SCCA has tried or should think otherwise.

On the original thread... Dave Patten probably has it best... the red jackets, are probably the basic idea... In addition at NHIS the "cleanup crew" whom man the white trucks that respond to any incidents at NASCAR events are also track volunteers, NOT paid for crew from NASCAR. This could be another reason they are trying to "man" the track with a group of Lime Rock dedicated people.

And on my thoughts from before... Jake- Does EMRA (?) and BMW club pay the same rates to have "racing" days or do they take muffled dates at a lower rate? Has anyone from the SCCA Regions ever investigated this idea?

Raymond

[lateapex911]

BMWCCA, as well as PCA run with the 13/13 no contact rule, (I'm pretty sure) which is a much stricter contact rule than what SCCA, NASCAR, Grand AM, etc run with. It is my understnading that the costs associated with that are different.

We have a poster here from EMRA, Rob, so I'll let him adress EMRAs point of view on this.

Just as a point of reference, SCDA charged a driver $240 a day if he entered both days at the Glen, $280 for a single day entry. I am pretty sure that the Glen supplied the flaggers...enough that I saw them in all the usual spots around the long course...but only one per station. Of course there was a wrecker and ambulance on station as well.

SCDA charges $325 for one day at LRP. I am not sure how they handle flaggers.

Track time amounts to (4) 25 minute sessions.

[RSTPerformance]

Thanks for the reply Jake... This is interesting to me.

Maybe someone with more knowledge than us can say if that is or is not a factor in the rental price. it seems that it could be something Lime Rock would do, however turn that around and we now have some power. What other clubs are willing to spend as much as we do whom do not have the 13/13 rule? If Lime Rock charges us more because of these more leinient rules then if we were to go, then whom are these people/clubs who would fill in the dates for the same rates? Is Lime Rock willing to host other clubs at a lower rate on these muffled dates? It seems to me that Lime Rock fights hard to keep those unmuffled dates for us, I am not 100% sold on the fact they don't want us. I am 100% sold that they use whatever they can to charge us more.

Raymond "who is compeating with us for track dates that need unmuffled and no 13/13 rules" Blethen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Raymond "who is compeating with us for track dates that need unmuffled and no 13/13 rules" Blethen [/b]

Pro Weekends. This year here is what is on tap. Grand Am GT, ALMS, Busch North, Rolex Vintage. SCCA has 5 unmuffled weekends. Remember also that LRP makes ziltch at the gate and in merchandise for SCCA weekends...

[Greg Amy]

...SCCA has 5 unmuffled weekends...[/b]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA [/b]

You are correct Greg. I use 'unmuffled' as the term for the 100db+ (103db I think) we get compared to the 89db days everyone else gets. I do not believe any other club gets the 100+.

[gran racing]

While I agree with you guys that these events run well, what you are asking is like asking a small local autox club whose events run smooth and well - to consult on how to make the Solo 2 Nationals run better.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.[/b]

I disagree. If we were talking about using this or other HPDE formulas to run SCCA RACE events, then yes. You’re looking too closely at this instead of viewing what types of things make the events so successful and well run. Why do we need to try and recreate the wheel? There are models out that that have been proven to be successful, use these resources. One problem I’ve seen is some regions try to run the PDX as if it was a race event – it is not the same and shouldn’t be run as if it were. A race event absolutely should be run differently than a PDX and should have resources allocated appropriately. Maybe this means that another group of people should be organizing these events to help with the separation.


I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on…[/b]

Not being a jerk, but didn’t you just recently post this?


Now with all that behind me I am trying to look forward as others have in this thread so let me think outside the box a bit with alternate options... and see what people think?[/b]

I thought looking at HPDEs / PDX was exactly what you asked for. LOL


SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not receiving the same product.[/b]

Define the PDX product. In reality, there are (or should be) many similarities to HPDEs currently being run by numerous clubs especially in the beginning driver levels. Sure, I would hope it would be geared a bit more towards grooming people to race wheel-to-wheel if that’s their desire. It’s also interesting to take a look at how many NASA regions do this and learn from what they’ve done.

We’re looking for potential solutions to the increasing costs associated with running racing events, therefore the PDX discussion is very relevant to this thread. Some of us including myself are bitching about how high the entry fees are especially at Lime Rock (I do understand the track really the source of much of this frustration). We’ve pretty much established that LRP doesn’t care and the rental fees won’t be going down anytime soon. I continually hear what we don’t have control over, but what things do we have control over to reduce these costs? Why is running a PDX and generating some revenue to reduce the cost for the following race day, while providing an excellent service to potential racers so horrible? I do believe that it is critical to effectively utilize the PDXs tool, and not just as a potential source of revenue.

There are also many other methods that could be utilized to generate revenue for the club, but some of these ideas would require a change in mind set. In the end, it’s all be about providing a great product at reasonable prices the average person can afford. How we go about getting there is an interesting debate.

[lateapex911]

I can't believe the tangents this topic has gone on, but as far as SCDA and SCCA PDX type events are concerned I don't think they are at all the same. SCDA is a private organization that delivers a product to make a profit. SCCA is designed as a club event to allow its members to have fun and enjoy themselves. SCDA pays the workers (some way or another) while the SCCA (PDX or otherwise) events don't. The list could go on and on on how they are different. SCCA events shouldn't charge nearly as much as the SCDA events as the "customers" and "Members" are not recieving the same product. I don't think anyone at SCCA has tried or should think otherwise.

Raymond [/b]

I just reread this. I'm curious...assuming that SCCA were to hold an event on a day at Lime Rock that was not a race weekend, how would the "products" be different?

Both events use the customers cars. Both events require safety gear and safety checks. Both events are controlled passing. Both provide instruction in high performance driving to relative newcomers. Both try and provide as much track time as possible, and classroom sessions take up a portion of the off track time.

SCCA does desire, I assume, to create and groom drivers for future wheel to wheel activities.

But, if SCCA chose a point man, and some staff, and rented a stafffed track how different would the product be?

Do the customers see the flaggers as being different? The instruction quality?

Seems to me that as far as the customer is concerned, the experience could be very very similar. SCCA does have a good name to draw on, but to many that won't matter. Help me see the differences, from a customers point of view.

(My suggestion here is that, as far as Lime Rock is concerned, SCCA could rent the track and run a Drivers ed event at the same rate as any other club...and provide the same, or better experience to the client. I don't think it's that hard to put the peices in place .... SCDA has proven that..... but we would need to look at the formula and follow it.)

On edit: Now that I posted, I see Dave has beaten me to many of the same points...

[dickita15]

I think you mean "muffled".

Forgive me, as I'm speaking from memory here, but in LRP-speak, "unmuffled" means exactly that: the ordinance allows only those three (?) pro weekends to truly be unmuffled competition weekends (Memorial Day weekend, July 4th, and one weekend in October). The ordinance further allows a limited number of "muffled" competition weekends; those are the ones SCCA (and others) get at the 100 (?) db level. Finally, the ordinance further restricts all remaining activity to be 89 dB and non-competition (thus, HPDE and Skippy).

Of course, the most obvious result of the ordinance is no on-track activity on Sundays. - GA
[/b]
Actually I believe this is wrong. The injunction that LRP runs under only has two classes of sound level. Unmuffled dates, 10 Fridays and Saturdays the three summer holidays and Tuesday afternoons have no noise restriction. The reason we run at 103 dB is that is the GCR standard.
All the rest of the days are muffled which muffled which has been interpreted as 89 although I do not believe the number is actually in the document.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I disagree. If we were talking about using this or other HPDE formulas to run SCCA RACE events, then yes. You're looking too closely at this instead of viewing what types of things make the events so successful and well run. Why do we need to try and recreate the wheel? There are models out that that have been proven to be successful, use these resources. One problem I've seen is some regions try to run the PDX as if it was a race event – it is not the same and shouldn't be run as if it were. A race event absolutely should be run differently than a PDX and should have resources allocated appropriately. Maybe this means that another group of people should be organizing these events to help with the separation.

[/b]

I stand corrected. I wasn't reading that you were tryingto get help for PDX's, I thought races.

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right?

[Greg Amy]

Thanks for the follow-up, Dick. I used to have a direct link to those 1959 agreements/regulations/ordinances (or least an official oblique reference), but it's gone missing; any ideas? I was becoming curious again today, and can't find them...

[dickita15]

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right?
[/b]

This time. we did it for a few years at LRP with the muffled enduros, but they were called HSCCC.



Thanks for the follow-up, Dick. I used to have a direct link to those 1959 agreements/regulations/ordinances (or least an official oblique reference), but it's gone missing; any ideas? I was becoming curious again today, and can't find them...
[/b]
I have only seen these holy doctrines in hard copy and that was a few years ago.

[RKramden]

Thanks for the follow-up, Dick. I used to have a direct link to those 1959 agreements/regulations/ordinances (or least an official oblique reference), but it's gone missing; any ideas? I was becoming curious again today, and can't find them...
[/b]
I used to have a copy, and from my memory (which is rapidly becoming "senior"), and based on discussions with Jim Haynes many years ago, the 89 db limit is what the state uses (or used to use) for cars and trucks at 60 MPH on the highway. Hence, it can not be louder than what one would expect to hear standing next to I-95.

Of course, this ignores the sound emissions from a highway being, basically, a line source while the single car on the track is a point source, along with a number of other differences like full throttle vs. constant speed. (Along with the injunction, I also had a copy of all the state laws and rules, but those are missing as well.)

[gran racing]

Having said that, this is only the second year for PDX's right? [/b]

I also don't want you to think that we need to run out and obtain consulting services to run PDXs, but do think there's a lot to be learned from other clubs that have been running them for quite some time now. We do need more PDX events here in the N.E.

I know, track time is a challenge but using the other approach (incorporating it into a scheduled weekend) it is do-able.

[Matt Rowe]

Dave,

I'm one of the key people in NEDIV responsible for the Time Trials program which includes PDX. Trust me when I say that we have been out there taking notes on other programs as far as what works and what our target customer wants. Also, my own background in racing started in HPDE within a marque club and the events in NEDIV that I've been involved with build on that experience.

Now, most of the NEDIV events are being put on by people with a heavy background in Club Racing so there is some adjustments that we are working on. In other cases these events are started to be organized and run by a combination of Club and Solo officials as well as people new to race organization. That's the utlimate goal which is to have a program with it' own mix of officials so that we don't increase the workload on our current officials.

If anyone has any more input on PDX's or questions let me know. I'll be happy to answer what I can or listen to ways we can improve.

[dickita15]

Matt brings up a very important point. NER road racing has no interest in running a PDX program forever. This is charity work for them. The only way it will grow in quantity and quality of events is when people who feel strongly about PDX start asking to help.
We went thru a similar start up with rally cross in New England. National had redone the program. We got a solo person to do the timing, a race driver to be event chair and a TSD rally person to secure a site and run registration. We ran one event had people said this is fun. The next year we ran another event and some and someone said why don’t we have more of these. Voila a program was born.
One of the key things that Matt got done when they rewrote the rule from HPCCC to PDX is it is now possible to “grow” instructors from within the program. Under the old rules you needed a road racing or solo 1 license to be an instructor. Track dates are hard to come by but once we have a group that wants to organize more PDXs we will find a couple of more dates.

[tdw6974]

.

There is SO much more that has to go into an SCCA event. Chair one, you will find out.
AMEN!!!!

[pfcs49]

Perhaps we could emulate EMRA. Circa 1980: "Organized Open Practice". Early Tuesday morning, EMRAs zany cadre of grassroots racers convene at LRP, including officials, timing/scoring, and flaggers. Entry is dirt-cheap, the going rate for an open practice/test day ($75?). There is a little initial confusion when we want to put our flaggers on station when LRP already has their own, but the track relents when we explain that we need to "practice" flagging. The 5 or 6 SCCA types are suprised to see such an eclectic mix of cars that stay out the whole first (practice)session and do the same the nest (qualifying) one. We didn't figure the track would be too sanguine if we "practiced" a start, so I, as polesitter, paced the field around to No-Name where we had our start. A good day of racing, unmuffled, and quite economical. EMRA didn't even buy any insurance as I recollect. After the race, an SCCA guy came over and wanted to know why we seemed to be so competetive on track-he's probably still wondering! Phil

[Dave Patten]

Here let me throw this one out. I don’t know the dollar or schedule impact, but just another idea for discussion.

The attendance at the NHIS National is generally quite low. The Pocono National is even worse and they have gone to a Double National format to raise attendance. Why not take the PDX on Monday of Memorial Day at NHIS, move it to LRP on a Friday to cut track rental cost and use the Saturday of that LRP weekend to do a one day Regional to reduce the track rental/entry fees. With the loss of one NEDIV National race at LRP in 2007, add a second National at NHIS by making Memorial Day a Double National which will help attract more attendance and bring the number of Nationals in Division back to the earlier level. Then move the Memorial Day Regional to the early May weekend that was the NHIS National. Also consider using LRP Fridays for non race activities, ie PDX, Schools, Time Trial.

Quick re-cap.
- PDX at LRP on a Friday not NHIS on Memorial Day, lower costs for track rental PDX v. Race @ LRP.
- One day Regional at LRP the Saturday following the PDX, one day track rental not two for the race.
- Move NHIS Regional from Memorial Day to the current National date in early May.
- Change Memorial Day from a 2 day Regional and a PDX to a 3 day, Double National.

The only other real way that I can see cutting costs for races at LRP is to use the Friday as a "non" race day (PDX, School or Time Trial) and only pay race rental for Saturday, making the LRP Regionals all one day races.

This is just an idea(s); I’m sure smarter logisticians than I have already thought of this and “Busted” the myth that it is viable.

[dickita15]

While I appreciate your thinking Dave, there are three problems I see with you suggestion.
1. To run a double national you need permission of the other regions in the division. A 75% vote is required. I believe the only reason Poccono is so endowed is the perception that the double is the only way a region can survive putting on a national there. Poccono also had the advantage of being in the center of the division. NER’s NHIS program is not perceived as threatened and the rest of the regions would not vote to bestow such an opportunity on the big region.
2. NER has no Fridays available except the one with the driver’s school at LRP. NER does a service running the school.
3. The Memorial Day triple regional is new last year and was a big success with regional racers and fills a hole in the NARRC schedule. I would not be willing to diminish the racing for the regional racers who support the region to help the National racers that do not.

[Dave Patten]

Like I said, those smarter than me.

NER does a school and a one day LRP Regional. Maybe it is a format, although not popular one with drivers due to reduced track time, that the other LRP using Regions need to explore to make their entry fees more "palletable" to entrants. It looks like MoHud will find out if the $399 entry amount is beyond the threshold that some drivers are willing to pay. I hope their event is a financial success. No group deserves to take a beating finacially after all the effort put forward to put on an SCCA roadrace.

I agree that a $89 entry fee increase is small in comparison to the whole event costs, but it may be the point where driver's start to question the return on their dollar. I towed to Summit Point in April. I had no idea of what I put into the tow vehicle for gas, dollarwise, until Exxon refused my credit card under their "fraud" policy for too many uses in too many states. The total gas bill was over $650.

[gran racing]

2. NER has no Fridays available except the one with the driver’s school at LRP. NER does a service running the school. [/b]

Just another benefit to Palmer coming - hopefully we can see a more defined "this region has these tracks and that region has those".

Dave, using the Friday PDX to help subsidize a Sat. race day is a good idea (I too thought that). Maybe LRP would reduce the weekend fee since it would be a HPDE on Friday vs. a race day?

[dickita15]

Dave, using the Friday PDX to help subsidize a Sat. race day is a good idea (I too thought that). Maybe LRP would reduce the weekend fee since it would be a HPDE on Friday vs. a race day?
[/b]

yes the rent would be cheaper if we only ran a PDX.

[Wreckerboy]

....Snip

And on my thoughts from before... Jake- Does EMRA (?) and BMW club pay the same rates to have "racing" days or do they take muffled dates at a lower rate? Has anyone from the SCCA Regions ever investigated this idea?

Raymond
[/b]

Raymond -

Sorry to get to this particular party so late.

I'm "the EMRA guy" Jake referred to a few pages back (even though I used to hold a SCCA regional license, EMRA has been my racing home for 19 seasons now). EMRA pays the same horrific rates that the SCCA does for LRP for our race days. For our Time Trial days we pay a slightly discounted rate, equivalent to what the marque clubs pay because we have very limited passing. Lime Rock does not give us any special deal. We're there in October this year because we chose to take advantage of the "off season" rates that are in place after (I think) September. At least ten years ago we had managed to get one of the unmuffled days, but haven't had one since. We run to the same restrictive dB requirements that everyone else faces.

I've been following this thread with interest because we face the same problems as your much larger organization faces. In fact, during last year's event we had an huge amount of rain and had something like 23 cars show up on race day. EMRA is a not for profit organization, and certainly lived up to those standards that day. Just like many of the smaller regions cited in these sorts of threads, a few events like that and we might cease to exist.

Interestingly, our Time Trial days at LRP are always well subscribed and usually have waiting lists. Just like Matt Rove, we're looking at what our customers want, and what we can do to to attract more. At LRP it seems to be a classic case of supply and demand.

Our insurance costs are as stratospheric as the next guy, but we do have an advantage in that we don't have to pay the "Mattberg Black Helicopters Fuel Fund to get our event specific golf shirts delivered."

WB
Grateful to be 100% Mattberg free!



Perhaps we could emulate EMRA. Circa 1980: "Organized Open Practice". Early Tuesday morning, EMRAs zany cadre of grassroots racers convene at LRP, including officials, timing/scoring, and flaggers. Entry is dirt-cheap, the going rate for an open practice/test day ($75?). There is a little initial confusion when we want to put our flaggers on station when LRP already has their own, but the track relents when we explain that we need to "practice" flagging. The 5 or 6 SCCA types are suprised to see such an eclectic mix of cars that stay out the whole first (practice)session and do the same the nest (qualifying) one. We didn't figure the track would be too sanguine if we "practiced" a start, so I, as polesitter, paced the field around to No-Name where we had our start. A good day of racing, unmuffled, and quite economical. EMRA didn't even buy any insurance as I recollect. After the race, an SCCA guy came over and wanted to know why we seemed to be so competetive on track-he's probably still wondering! Phil
[/b]


Phil - not much has changed since then except the dollar amounts and the insurance. And maybe we get a better selection of beer for the trophy and worker award ceremony at the end of the day then we did then!

[JohnRW]

Phil - not much has changed since then except the dollar amounts and the insurance. And maybe we get a better selection of beer for the trophy and worker award ceremony at the end of the day then we did then!
[/b]

...and Jell-O shots, too.

[RSTPerformance]

Rob-

Thanks for the reply... Looks like things are equal, and Lime Rock is just going to be a premier place to race. Those that can afford (and thier are plenty) will enjoy. those whom can't, well come to the other tracks and enjoy the races... but forget about running for the NARRC championship.

I do hope we stay at Lime Rock, simply for the sake it hosts a lot of great races, and a lot of people can afford it, so we will get numbers no matter how expensive it gets.

Raymond

[RKramden]

Back to the topic.....

I had a chat with someone today about the LRP "Club". Seems they had a big meeting with the track last week.

LRP is looking for people to drive golf carts and provide shuttle services for the big name pro racers, or staff their information booth and try to sell stuff to the fans, etc.

For the privilege of being able to volunteer to work for the track, the track will charge club members only $50 per year. That is to cover the cost of those fantastic "bag lunches" that the track will be giving you each day you spent 10 or more hours working for them. If you have ever had the ham or "smoked turkey" bag lunches, you would know what a fantastic offer this really is.

Understand that this is exactly the same types of jobs that NHIS PAYS people to do during Cup Weekends. And there, you might actually meet a race car driver who's name is recognized by more than 16 people in the whole world.

It seems that LRP management is now going to even greater lengths than anyone could have ever guessed to really piss off their hard core fans, along with their regular fans, as well as their customers.

Maybe the current track management is really trying to get all the money they can before going out of business. It sure looks like they are working very hard to cause paying customers to not come back.

[Greg Amy]

Uh, wow. Just...wow.

[Doc Bro]

WOW, Insightful post Dave.

Let me cast the first vote to bring back the restroom "valet". It seems to go well with the current...err......"thinking"


R

As far as I'm concerned LRP is a PITA.....repave it and I'd be more interested in the politics.

[Andy Bettencourt]

pave it and I'd be more interested in the politics. [/b]

Lime Rock is bumpy? :P

[RacerBill]

Let me cast the first vote to bring back the restroom "valet". It seems to go well with the current...err......"thinking"

[/b]

"valet"? To do what? Hose down the urinal walls?

I did get a big kick out of the concession stands that sell wine (or was that whine?)

But every track has it's local flavor. Do you know that there are signs posted at Texas Motor Speedway reminding you that it is against the law to take guns into the suites, and rifles into the stands! And, yes, there were shots fired at our crew one year when we were picking up the timing and scoring equipment in the infield after a night race!

Thread returned to original topic!

[alfa]

Let me cast the first vote to bring back the restroom "valet". [/b]

Are they gone?

On second thought, maybe that's what the new volunteers will be doing.

[16v]

On second thought, maybe that's what the new volunteers will be doing.
[/b]


peeing on the walls? B)

[Eric Parham]

Maybe the current track management is really trying to get all the money they can before going out of business. It sure looks like they are working very hard to cause paying customers to not come back.
[/b]

I've often wondered whether Lime Rock would survive without a substantial Skippy subsidy. Keep in mind that the track is at a tremendous disadvantage due to the church that moved in next door to null out half of almost every potentially profitable weekend. Nice in some respects I suppose, but terrible for business. If we're going to even contemplate conspiracy, consider how much easier it would be for one to infiltrate the other rather than vise-versa.

[lateapex911]

I've often wondered whether Lime Rock would survive without a substantial Skippy subsidy. Keep in mind that the track is at a tremendous disadvantage due to the church that moved in next door to null out half of almost every potentially profitable weekend. Nice in some respects I suppose, but terrible for business. If we're going to even contemplate conspiracy, consider how much easier it would be for one to infiltrate the other rather than vise-versa. [/b]

The church, interestingly, actually predates the race car circuit by over 50 years. it was built in the late 1800s, and designed by a famous NY architect, in response to local desires to have a church, believe it or not, close to where the locals spent a good bit of time on the weekends...the horse racing track. Even stranger, back in the late 1800s, THAT track was located right about where the current skidpack is sited.

Nevertheless, the church and the surrounding buildings and houses (all built to support local industry of the 1800s) predated the actual track built by Jim Vail by over 50 years. The town voted to support the building of the track, but after two years of operation, in 1959, the church was succesful in pushing the injunction through which limited racing to Saturdays, the number of unmuffled days to 10, and the hours of race engine operation to 9AM to 6PM.

Recently, IIRC, Lime Rock attemped to modify that agreement, and wanted to trade certain elements in exchange for certain Sundays. I don't know what the resolution of that action was, but I presume it fell on deaf ears.

[RKramden]

I've often wondered whether Lime Rock would survive without a substantial Skippy subsidy.
[/b]

It was my understanding that it was the other way around. That is, the racing school had a multi year fixed price contract for the days they rented the track that gave them a rate far below market for those days. So, the other clubs who rented the track had to make up the difference.

[lateapex911]

That was my understanding as well.When Skip owned both, his "contract" with, essentially, himself, was friendly towards the school. perhaps in an effort to help sell the school. Somehow, that rate continues.

It does appear however, that the market is strong and they seem to be able to fill the calender ....I wonder when the current Barber contract runs out, and whether they will be able to negotiate a new one that they can afford. Remember, they own a significant building in town that they operate out of.

[Eric Parham]

Thanks Jake, that is a great summary of Lime Rock ("LR") history. I wonder if there's any way to race on Sundays at a further reduced sound level, or if it's more a matter of the church and/or community opposing the additional traffic to/from the track on those days? Just a thought, but electric car races that I've seen elsewhere have been extremely quiet (no intake or exhaust noise) :)

Dave, I didn't understand the details before, but it sounds now like there was mutual benefit to both Skip Barber ("SB") and LR. The benefit to LR was apparently not in the form of subsidy, but perhaps in the form of a minimum guaranteed income. Doesn't SB mostly use weekdays? If so, I would guess that those dates would not normally be (or previously were not) all booked or salable at full price.

EDIT: Just saw Jake's last post. So, do we think that the dates used by SB could ALL be sold at a higher price, or just a few of them? For the track, more filled dates may be more valuable than a higher price for just a few dates. Also, it was my impression when I worked for SB in '94 that they didn't seem to need as much track support as club dates required.

[RKramden]

If Skip Barber Racing closed their doors today, then some of the near term days might not get rented out, because no-one would be ready to jump on those days on such short notice.

But I'd bet that anything more than a month and a half away would be taken. Next year it would be just as full as today.

By comparison, weekdays at NHIS are fully booked as well, and there are often events on the track, using M and J lots, and out in Frontier Land, all at the same time. I have seen days where there were actually 4 different groups using various parts of the track at the same time.

[16v]

maybe the money is to pay for the Track Record? Just got the new, full size, full color edition in the mail today.

[bg43wex]

did you happen to catch the SCCA remarks in the kids birthday party section?

[Jeremy Billiel]

Not to add fuel to the fire... OK maybe I am, but looking at the current car count the LRP race weekend will be a rather large loss...

Currently only 122 registered according to the website.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think you will see more than an average amount of 'write-ins'. This event required mailing the payment in by the 10th so pre-registering on the web wasn't really neccessary because you were mailing anyway.

$399 is a lot of money but if you want to get 2 races in at LRP this year, you can't do it ANY cheaper. It's a DOUBLE!