NARRC Rule changes?

[TimM ITB]

I'll take any help on this one, and I guess this would come under the general heading of "I should have read the instructions BEFORE I started putting together the tricycle", but the quote below is from the 2007 NARRC rules (which I JUST read), and if I read this correctly, I MUST race at LRP at certain races according to this?

"To be eligible for double points at the NARRC Runoffs, a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races. [That is, at least one race presented by each of the those 3 Regions.]"

So, this means that I MUST race at the May 19th race (Mo-Hud), AND I MUST race at the August 11th race (NNJR) (now I that I have already made my committments for the Cincy IT Fest, which looks like it's going to be a BLAST and a great value for seat time!) and that I must race in one of the two NER races at LRP, that are scheduled for a either a one day event in June after a Driver's School, or a one day event ON THE FOURTH OF JULY! If I don't do the above, I give up double points for the NARRC? Is this NEW for this year? I don't recall this being part of the requirements in any other year?

And, on a slightly separate note, the CHEAP DATE at NHIS is no longer a NARRC event? But the single day event (sprint race) at the RAL is a NARRC race?

In any event, it's not the end of the world one way or the other, because I was really trying to do as many doubles this year as possible to get the best use of my "racing budget", it just seems odd to me that we are being "required" this year to race at LRP as much as this if we want to have double points at the NARRCs.

There is probably a very good reason for the change this year (if it IS a change), just as there is a good reason to read the instructions before you start to put together the tricycle (as my wife has been so kind to point out to me in the past!), so if anyone can enlighten me, thanks.

Tim M

[Greg Amy]

There is probably a very good reason for the change this year...[/b]

"Reason"? Yes. "Good"? No.

Chalk it up to inter-region political power struggles/squabbles. Really, really stupid ones.

Yet another reason Greg won't be bothering with NARRC points this year...there are bigger ponds with bigger fish to fry...

Purely my personal opinion.

[Andy Bettencourt]

There have been a couple interations of the rules with this one being the latest. The one thing I will say is that the way I read the rules, you don't have to go to either of the NER events at LRP to be eligible, you have to go to ANY NER event...track independent. I could be wrong on that one now that I read it for the 100th time.

IMHO, the reason for the change is to stimulate attendance at the more 'poorly' subscribed LRP events in an effort to keep losses for those smaller Regions at a minimum. Also, being a multi-regional series, it is important that you can't just stick to your 'home' track and collect a Championship. The NARRC, as recently as 2-3 years ago, has been very NHIS-centric. This move, with the effective bonus points for the Pocono event, promote inter-track travel and IMHO make for more well-balanced Champions. It costs me money but we do need to be fair to drivers closer to WGI, LRP and Pocono. NNJ, MoHud and NYR members just aren't close to New Hampshire.

Having said that, there are political influences at work here. I have been in contact with the people in charge from the beginning but for the real scoop, you need to talk with all the NARRC reps from every Region. They will each have a different take and point of view. You will have to piece your own together. I have mine and will share at the track should anyone care.

Thanks to NER RE Doug M. for listening to me on the phone...

[Dave Zaslow]

Sure looks like there was as much intra-committee warfare at the spring meeting as there was at the fall one:

POINTS: Points are awarded to the top ten positions to all NARRC-eligible finishers as follows:

First through 9th places = 12-9-7-6-5-4-3-2-1.

Double points – NARRC Runoffs only (if eligible) = 24-18-14-12-10-8-6-4-2-1.

See immediately below for eligibility requirements.

To be eligible for double points at the NARRC Runoffs, a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races. [That is, at least one race presented by each of the those 3 Regions.]

Totals = Finishing points earned in the best eight (8) class finishes of all NARRC races held + plus one extra point for each start per the final, official Timing & Scoring results, + bonus points awarded in the following manner. Four (4) bonus points for one start at one circuit; four (4) additional bonus points for one start at a 2nd circuit; and 12 additional bonus points for one start at a 3rd circuit. (4 + 4 + 12 = 20 bonus points maximum).

NOTE; Bonus points are only available at races sanctioned by the four Regions comprising NARRC.

Example: A driver competes in 14 races & wins the maximum allowed. Multiply 12 points per win by 7 wins = 84; 14 starts = 14; all 3 tracks =20 bonus points. This equals 118 points and is the maximum available upon entering the NARRC Runoffs. This would also qualify the driver for the double points available at the NARRC Runoffs. Winning the NARRC Runoffs would add an additional 24 points to the driver’s total. Therefore, the maximum points possible for each class champion is 118 + 24 = 142

[RKramden]

we do need to be fair to drivers closer to WGI, LRP and Pocono.
[/b]

We need to be fair to the largest majority of the drivers.

Last time I ran the numbers over 75% of the drivers were from NER, and only 5% were from New York Region.

How about being fair to drivers from Maine? How is forcing them to tow all the way to Pocono and WGI fair to them?

Looks to me like trying to favour the very few at the expense of the many. Government committees at their worst. :(

[gran racing]

Yet another reason Dave won't be bothering with NARRC points this year...there are bigger ponds with bigger fish to fry...

Purely my personal opinion. [/b]

Mid Ohio IT Fest and ARRC, here I come!

Tim, you already have one series championship on the wall, come play at some of these other events with us.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We need to be fair to the largest majority of the drivers.

Last time I ran the numbers over 75% of the drivers were from NER, and only 5% were from New York Region.

How about being fair to drivers from Maine? How is forcing them to tow all the way to Pocono and WGI fair to them?

Looks to me like trying to favour the very few at the expense of the many. Government committees at their worst. :( [/b]

Well, you can rub the numbers anyway you want to make an arguement. It COULD be argued that drivers from the other drivers from other Regions DIDN'T come because of preponderance of NHIS events in the NARRC series - making it undesirable.

The 'Drivers from Maine' comment isn't a good arguement. They just don't live near the series. You can't use one extreme to make a rule. 'Maine' drivers have the NERRC if they want a local series. If they want a inter-regional series, they have to travel. Same with drivers from NY, NJ and CT.

Understand I am fully aware of the political issues at play and I don't like it...but this is a decent middle-ground, trust me.






Mid Ohio IT Fest and ARRC, here I come!

[/b]

Dave,

This info should FAVOR someone like you who doesn't like to travel to NHIS. A more balanced schedule allows you to stay closer to home more often - but not exclusively. Right now the 2007 schedule looks like this:

NHIS - 6 points paying events
LRP - 5
Pocono - 2
WGI - 1

I would argue that LRP is the most centrally located track to the Regions included in the series.

You could do 7 NARRC events and get double points for the Runoffs without setting foot in New Hampshire. Could you win the whole thing? I doubt it as you will have someone 'winning' up North without any blocking and it would come down to the Runoffs - plus you wouldn't have the 8 event max...

I am a Massachusetts guy and I have to travel more for the NARRC now. I see value in running against the best from all 4 Regions so I don't mind so much. If I don't want to travel, the NERRC is where I would stay. There are options for both.

[tom_sprecher]

A series forcing drivers to race at particular events and tracks is new to me. With the SARRC (http://www.sedivracing.org/SARRC/sarrc_sop_2007.pdf), except not allowing races at two tracks within 450 miles of each other on the same or consecutive weekends, we tend to let capitalism do it's thing. If a region can not put on a race and break even or make a little that's too bad. We figure maybe they should get out of the way for someone who can.

Unlike other parts of the country we also have a tendency to be "red" states. Unions, seniority and protectionism mean little here. It's kind of way of life that treats everyone the same and I for one like it.

[JLawton]

This info should FAVOR someone like you who's afraid to drive at NHIS.

[/b]


There, that's more realistic. He's worried the Canadians will beat him!

[gran racing]

This info should FAVOR someone like you who doesn't like to travel to NHIS.[/b]

It isn't the traveling, it is I do not care for NHIS or similar types of tracks (Pocono comes to mind). I do get the point you were trying to make with this though.

Afraid? Not this year. LOL Besides, I'm sure I will see them down at the ARRC and am fully aware of just how crazy fast they are. Oh, I didn't tell you yet that I'm getting a new custom Koni suspension and will have Kessler Engineering tune it with me at the track. No more of these soft 400/600 springs. :D I won't be surprised if the car/driver is slower before the package becomes faster. I guess time will only tell.

[Jeremy Billiel]

It isn't the traveling, it is I do not care for NHIS or similar types of tracks (Pocono comes to mind). I do get the point you were trying to make with this though.

Afraid? Not this year. LOL Besides, I'm sure I will see them down at the ARRC and am fully aware of just how crazy fast they are. Oh, I didn't tell you yet that I'm getting a new custom Koni suspension and will have Kessler Engineering tune it with me at the track. No more of these soft 400/600 springs. :D I won't be surprised if the car/driver is slower before the package becomes faster. I guess time will only tell.
[/b]

Are you feeling ok? Did Melissa get a raise? Boy that book must be selling!

Dave is on a spending spree!

:D :D :D

[dominojd]

It isn't the traveling, it is I do not care for NHIS or similar types of tracks (Pocono comes to mind). I do get the point you were trying to make with this though.

Afraid? Not this year. LOL Besides, I'm sure I will see them down at the ARRC and am fully aware of just how crazy fast they are. Oh, I didn't tell you yet that I'm getting a new custom Koni suspension and will have Kessler Engineering tune it with me at the track. No more of these soft 400/600 springs. :D I won't be surprised if the car/driver is slower before the package becomes faster. I guess time will only tell.
[/b]


If you need someone to make the car go fast me or Greg will drive it for you. :P

Is that a better insult Jeremy?

[Jeremy Billiel]

If you need someone to make the car go fast me or Greg will drive it for you. :P

Is that a better insult Jeremy?
[/b]

MUCH Better... I missed you Joe!

[RSTPerformance]

To be eligible for double points at the NARRC Runoffs, a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races. [That is, at least one race presented by each of the those 3 Regions.]
[/b]

As far as I see it, you have two options to get double points for the NARRC runoffs double points:

1) Qualify for the race: Basicaly just run in the qualifying session and earn a qualifying spot (see GCR for reasons someone wouldn't qualify, such as not enough laps, not fast enough, non compliant car, etc.)

or

2) race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races. [That is, at least one race presented by each of the those 3 Regions.]


I would submit a protest just in a simple protest of the lousy people that are on the NARRC committee. You people simply SUCK. I wish we had a way to vote those people out... actually lets figure out how to do a pole at the track and give feedback to the comittee. I think that this year I will probably figure out how to make anti NARRC stickers and I probably wont run the NARRC Runoffs even though I respect that race a lot simply because it has some great competitors.

On a side note... It really sucks to be the "southern" racer who plans on running all Lime Rock, Pocono, WGI races, but unfortunatly is busy and will miss one of those Lime Rock races they need for double points, thus completely taking them out of a chance for even the top 5 in class.

Raymond "Not impressed" Blethen

[gran racing]

Are you feeling ok? Did Melissa get a raise? Boy that book must be selling! [/b]

I haven't even broken even from my book yet but having the ability to write off my car build did help with taxes. He, he, he. I also decided to pursue some sponsors this year, worked several extra hours, and with my not racing last year, I was able to save up a bit. Besides, Melissa is talking about having a baby next year so I better build the car up now!! By the June LRP race, the car will be built very well.


Dave is on a spending spree![/b]

I know. :bash_1_: I.......can't.......stop! Today my new AEM air intake system arrived at the front door. :D Where do I sign up for racers anomyous?

[StephenB]

As far as I see it, you have two options to get double points for the NARRC runoffs double points:

1) Qualify for the race: Basicaly just run in the qualifying session and earn a qualifying spot (see GCR for reasons someone wouldn't qualify, such as not enough laps, not fast enough, non compliant car, etc.)

or

2) race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races. [That is, at least one race presented by each of the those 3 Regions.][/b]


Raymond is correct on this in my opinion... If the following isn't the intention they incorrectly wrote the rules and it will need a revision for 2008.

It says you must Qualifyat the NARRC Runnoffs event OR race at the other 3 regions races to be eligable for double points. So basically if you run at least one race presented by each of the three regions you could skip qualifying on friday and then just start from last and still be eligable fro double points. If you don't run all three races you must qualify on Friday to be eligable for the points.

There is always a loophole! NARRC is still not a lost series afterall!
Stephen

PS: I am not a representitive of the committe so I cannot speak on the original intention I can only read the rule as stated.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Raymond is correct on this in my opinion... If the following isn't the intention they incorrectly wrote the rules and it will need a revision for 2008.

It says you must Qualifyat the NARRC Runnoffs event OR race at the other 3 regions races to be eligable for double points. So basically if you run at least one race presented by each of the three regions you could skip qualifying on friday and then just start from last and still be eligable fro double points. If you don't run all three races you must qualify on Friday to be eligable for the points.

There is always a loophole! NARRC is still not a lost series afterall!
Stephen

PS: I am not a representitive of the committe so I cannot speak on the original intention I can only read the rule as stated. [/b]

Are you guys sharing the same brain today?

"To be eligible for double points at the NARRC Runoffs, a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races."

Where does it say OR?

[Eagle7]

Are you guys sharing the same brain today?

"To be eligible for double points at the NARRC Runoffs, a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races."

Where does it say OR?

[/b]

Took me a while to see it. Quite creative.

"To be eligible for double points at the NARRC Runoffs, a driver must (qualify) OR (race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races)."

[Dave Zaslow]

What makes up a championship?

Should it be a requirement that a NARRC championship goes to a driver that has raced at one of each sponsoring regions events? In that case you must race at the Mo-Hud May 19 and NYR Narrc-offs. Miss the Mo-Hud race and all you lose is a shot at the double points at the Narrc-offs. You still get the regular points.

Should it be a requirement that a NARRC championship goes to a driver that has raced at each of the Narrc region's tracks? Then you must get yourself to Pocono. We already have an incentive for this in the 4+4+12=20 bonus points for running three tracks. Note that the Glen is our 'out of region' event and does not add to the 4/20 point kicker for a Narrc region track.

So we either have the best or worst of both worlds. Each region wants their races to be financially successful. To win the championship you do not need to run a race at every track, nor do you need to run at every region's race. Your benefit in the rules are track bonus points and a double points race at the end of the year.

You do not have to do anything different to win the championship other than show up and race. The points kickers are nothing but crutches that support the series sponors. Not necessarily a bad thing.

So the philosophy this year is to encourage participation at each regions races. Given the enmity between regions that I saw, based on their representaitves beliefs of what was best for the series and their region, this is the result.

So it goes.... (RIP Kurt)

Dave Zaslow

[ed325its]

"To be eligible for double points at the NARRC Runoffs, a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races. [That is, at least one race presented by each of the those 3 Regions.]"

So, this means that I MUST race at the May 19th race (Mo-Hud), AND I MUST race at the August 11th race (NNJR) (now I that I have already made my committments for the Cincy IT Fest, which looks like it's going to be a BLAST and a great value for seat time!) and that I must race in one of the two NER races at LRP, that are scheduled for a either a one day event in June after a Driver's School, or a one day event ON THE FOURTH OF JULY! If I don't do the above, I give up double points for the NARRC? Is this NEW for this year? I don't recall this being part of the requirements in any other year?
Tim M
[/b]

Where are all of the english majors?
In my opinion Tim has this correct. Others have tried to add words, commas, or brackets to make the sentance read differently.

...a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock... means that he must either qualify or race at each of the listed events. The addition of the word qualify allows for an accident, error, or car breakage that would not allow the competitor to race at that event to still qualify for double points at the runoffs.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Where are all of the english majors?
In my opinion Tim has this correct. Others have tried to add words, commas, or brackets to make the sentance read differently.

...a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock... means that he must either qualify or race at each of the listed events. The addition of the word qualify allows for an accident, error, or car breakage that would not allow the competitor to race at that event to still qualify for double points at the runoffs. [/b]

Ed is correct. To qualify for the NARRC Runoffs, you have to race or qual at one of the specific races. The NARRC Runoffs is held by New York Region - so it IS NOT an eligible event for 'qualification' for 'itself'.

[Andy Bettencourt]

What makes up a championship?

Should it be a requirement that a NARRC championship goes to a driver that has raced at one of each sponsoring regions events? In that case you must race at the Mo-Hud May 19 and NYR Narrc-offs. Miss the Mo-Hud race and all you lose is a shot at the double points at the Narrc-offs. You still get the regular points.

Should it be a requirement that a NARRC championship goes to a driver that has raced at each of the Narrc region's tracks? Then you must get yourself to Pocono. We already have an incentive for this in the 4+4+12=20 bonus points for running three tracks. Note that the Glen is our 'out of region' event and does not add to the 4/20 point kicker for a Narrc region track.

So we either have the best or worst of both worlds. Each region wants their races to be financially successful. To win the championship you do not need to run a race at every track, nor do you need to run at every region's race. Your benefit in the rules are track bonus points and a double points race at the end of the year.

You do not have to do anything different to win the championship other than show up and race. The points kickers are nothing but crutches that support the series sponors. Not necessarily a bad thing.

So the philosophy this year is to encourage participation at each regions races. Given the enmity between regions that I saw, based on their representaitves beliefs of what was best for the series and their region, this is the result.

So it goes.... (RIP Kurt)

Dave Zaslow [/b]

I wanted to make sure evenyone read this again. Excellent comments.

And to your question about what is a Championship? For me, the NARRC is a multi-Regional thing. To ME, it carries more prestige if you win. You have beaten the 'travelling team' from the Northeast. I think it should include the 3 tracks and a manditory start at the Runoffs. I also think the runoffs should rotate tracks...but many do not consider NHIS or Pocono to be 'worthy' of such an event -and I pretty much agree.

When I sent my thoughts to the NARRC Committee twice this off-season on the first cut of the rules (of which many of you didn't catch), I offered to head up a drivers rep group for the NARRC committee. Heard nothing. I see no reason we couldn't pull Doug and Serge aside at NHIS and learn, and then provide input. That is the next productive step I believe.

[RSTPerformance]

I wanted to make sure evenyone read this again. Excellent comments.

And to your question about what is a Championship? For me, the NARRC is a multi-Regional thing. To ME, it carries more prestige if you win. You have beaten the 'travelling team' from the Northeast. I think it should include the 3 tracks and a manditory start at the Runoffs. I also think the runoffs should rotate tracks...but many do not consider NHIS or Pocono to be 'worthy' of such an event -and I pretty much agree.

When I sent my thoughts to the NARRC Committee twice this off-season on the first cut of the rules (of which many of you didn't catch), I offered to head up a drivers rep group for the NARRC committee. Heard nothing. I see no reason we couldn't pull Doug and Serge aside at NHIS and learn, and then provide input. That is the next productive step I believe.
[/b]


I do want to second Andy's comments.. Dave I think you do make some good points (lol). However I do worry at the thought that the series is becoming more influenced by its ability to create a financial gain rather than an intent to provide a good series for the drivers/teams that are compeating in the series.

I also questin that one of the issues may be that the people running the regions are the people running the series, thus a conflict of interests. Maybe we need to find more volunteers... some whom are not involved at the top level of the individual reagions the series runs through.

Andy, if you do get a meeting set up, I would love to know about incase I have time to attend.

Raymond

[RSTPerformance]

oh and BTW... I only added the "OR" options for fun, and to bring back what I think the rules should be ;)

Hope all is well...

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

I do want to second Andy's comments.. Dave I think you do make some good points (lol). However I do worry at the thought that the series is becoming more influenced by its ability to create a financial gain rather than an intent to provide a good series for the drivers/teams that are compeating in the series.

I also questin that one of the issues may be that the people running the regions are the people running the series, thus a conflict of interests. Maybe we need to find more volunteers... some whom are not involved at the top level of the individual reagions the series runs through.

Andy, if you do get a meeting set up, I would love to know about incase I have time to attend.

Raymond [/b]

I think we all have to understand that 'for finacial gain' and 'financially viable' can be two different things. Some Regions can't take a multi-thousand dollar hit when a race is undersubscibed. The Series has to make sense for BOTH the racers AND the Regions. There is no two ways about it. We just all have to come to a happy middle ground.

[JLawton]

Have we really had any under subscribed events at any LRP event??

[dickita15]

Have we really had any under subscribed events at any LRP event??
[/b]
under subscribed events takes on a different meaning when the track rent is $53,000. the regions whose racing program is closely tied to LRP are nervous.

[Dave Zaslow]

I have mis-read and mis-spoken.

To be eligible for double points at the NARRC Runoffs, a driver must qualify or race at NARRC races at Lime Rock presented by Mo-Hud AND Northern New Jersey, AND one of the New England races.

As many times as I have read that paragraph I missed the requirement that the NNJ race at LRP was required for double points, not just any NNJ race.

Was it the NARRC committee's intent to make the choice of 'any' NER race be one of the two they are running at LRP or to also include one of the six they are running at NHIS? The language does not specifically state that it must be at LRP.

Dave Z

[RSTPerformance]

I think that the intent is that you must race a total of 3 races at Lime Rock to be eligable. One event has to be presented by Mo-Hud, one by Northern New Jersey, and one by New England Region.

[RSTPerformance]

I saw Serge Lentz at NHIS tonight and he said that you do not have to attend races at Lime rock, you only need to attend 1 race hosted by each region... I have not looked at the schedule, but he said that those regions hosted races at other tracks.

I don't see how the rules represent what he said... I think I will try to print it out and present it to him and ask him to explain this weekend. I hope others ask questions especialy if they don't like the new rules.

Another suggestion that I herd (before tonight) was that the NARRC runoffs would NOT be double points no matter what, and that this was a compromise. I also don't like that line of thinking for multiple reasons.

In the poll I put up it looks like it is split, half the people seem to like it and half don't. interesting...

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

I saw Serge Lentz at NHIS tonight and he said that you do not have to attend races at Lime rock, you only need to attend 1 race hosted by each region... I have not looked at the schedule, but he said that those regions hosted races at other tracks.

I don't see how the rules represent what he said... I think I will try to print it out and present it to him and ask him to explain this weekend. I hope others ask questions especialy if they don't like the new rules.

Another suggestion that I herd (before tonight) was that the NARRC runoffs would NOT be double points no matter what, and that this was a compromise. I also don't like that line of thinking for multiple reasons.

In the poll I put up it looks like it is split, half the people seem to like it and half don't. interesting...

Raymond [/b]

MoHud and NNJ have only one LRP race on the NARRC schedule so I fail to see how you can miss those and become eligible for double points. The only grey area to me is whether or not the 'one NER' event you must attend is one of their 2 LRP events of one of their NHIS events.

[Dave Zaslow]

I have another question.

The MoHud double is listed as a single NARRC race. Is this correct? If so which one? If not, the calendar needs to show 15 eligible races rather than 14.

Dave Z

[Andy Bettencourt]

I have another question.

The MoHud double is listed as a single NARRC race. Is this correct? If so which one? If not, the calendar needs to show 15 eligible races rather than 14.

Dave Z [/b]

Take a quick look at the supps. While it's a Double event, the points flow as follows:

Q1 and R1 - John Stim Memorial: NARRC and NYSRRC points

Q2 and R2 - Dave Riggi Memorial: Just NYSRRC

So it's a double event, with single NARRC points and Double NYSRRC points.

[Bill Miller]

Given that the LRP entry fees are almost $400 this year, it's my guess that the agenda behind all this is to coerce the drivers into running the LRP events. You may be less inclined to pass on that $400 entry fee if they hold the double points at the NARRC over your head. Otherwise, why not make it a requirement that you just have to run one race hosted by each Region, and let the drivers pick which race to run?

[Andy Bettencourt]

This is a very tough situation. On one hand, many of us would love to tell LRP to pound sand but on the other, one of the best tracks in the Northeast is at stake.

It's a lose-lose. Region's can't continue to hold races that lose money. Entry fees have to reflect true costs and with weekend costs like these, race weekend aren't cheap. The threshold for what races will pay is getting tested in a big way.

LRP only allows a finite amount of unmuffled days per year. They come at a premium.

So what is the solution? There is no good one. If we 'boycott' races, the Regions lose money and refuse to hold one in subsiquent years. Then we have no more races at LRP. Word is they want us out like Dick says. Word is that there are plenty of marque clubs that are ready to take the dates should the SCCA drop them.

It would be nice if we can get a laymans breakdown of the expenses vs. revenues to get a better idea of why $400 per enrty is needed. 225 cars is about what the June event did last year...that's $90K in registration fees.

The bottom line is that the racers need to do what is best for them. If the costs are too much, the interest will dwindle. But don't boycott - it won't do ANYTHING as this situation is out of our control. Prayers for Palmer!

[RKramden]

It would be nice if we can get a laymans breakdown of the expenses vs. revenues to get a better idea of why $400 per enrty is needed. 225 cars is about what the June event did last year...that's $90K in registration fees.

The bottom line is that the racers need to do what is best for them. If the costs are too much, the interest will dwindle. But don't boycott - it won't do ANYTHING as this situation is out of our control. Prayers for Palmer!
[/b]
For NER, there ain't no secrets (that I know of :) )

Go to any regional Comp Board Meeting (all dates and places announced in January for the entire year as well as on the NER web site) and the first order of business at just about any meeting is the comptrollers report, wherein Ms. Ames presents a very detailed rundown of all the expenses and income for road racing, including breakdowns BY EVENT, and by specialty or area for overhead that is not event assignable, like equipment purchase, training, etc.

Also, track rental isn't the only way the track takes money from the regions. For example, they require that we deal with their on site food service and pay the outrageous fees for worker lunches and the Friday night racers party. It seems that the food just keeps getting worse every year while the prices keep going up.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think we are all aware that the info is available at a meeting. It would just be nice for someone 'in the know' to give us some round figures so we can all understand what it costs to put an event on at LRP.

It may help people decide to spend a little extra and support the Regions and enjoy the venue, shut 'er down altogether or something inbetween...

[RKramden]

I think we are all aware that the info is available at a meeting. It would just be nice for someone 'in the know' to give us some round figures so we can all understand what it costs to put an event on at LRP.

It may help people decide to spend a little extra and support the Regions and enjoy the venue, shut 'er down altogether or something inbetween...
[/b]

I went down stairs, picked up one of Ms. Ames balance sheets and sent Andy a PM.
(At the same time he was typing his reply...)

Another viewpoint on the size of the entry fee:

Back when I started racing, the entry fee I paid was just about 2 Formula Ford rears or one GT1 car tire (take your pick.) That was 20 years ago.

Today, FF rears (any compound) are about $195 each, and the GT1 tires (depending on front or rear) are just under or over $400.

Seems like not all that much has changed. :(

[WillM]

I think we are all aware that the info is available at a meeting. It would just be nice for someone 'in the know' to give us some round figures so we can all understand what it costs to put an event on at LRP.
[/b]

Agreed! How about publishing it in the FastTrack?

[Andy Bettencourt]

So it appears that it will cost about (and this is a BIG 'about') $75K to put on this event. It being a Double (two sanction fees) and a full two days of on-track lends itself to big money. Some cost centers are:

- Track rental
- Equipment rental, printing, misc
- Insurance
- Worker lunches and evening party
- Sanction fees
- Trophies (alomst 90 of them)
- Operations

An estimate using last years numbers and this years track fees @ $400 for the double has us at 188 cars to break even. Going to $350 brings that number to 215. Having 3 back-to-back Doubles on the NARRC May schedule will not help ANY event but remember, tracks tell US when we can race.

Wasn't one of the NHIS Doubles last year $310 for both days? The Pocono Double next weekend is $310. I know money is tight but is the extra $89 gonna wreck evenyones racing budget for the year? I hate it as much as the next guy but a boycott isn't the way to go. Let's let the Regions back out on their own terms instead of forcing them too by not supporting them. If you want to go, and it fits your yearly plan, go.

[zchris]

Andy, I think poeples concern is that gas will cost 50% more and entry will cost x% more and most of us make the same when you factor in inflation vs our pay so most will have to reduce the # of races or go into debt to race. I do not believe the term boycott is in order, just sensible spending. Its to bad LR has increased fees. It will cost the club in reduced #'s racing and hence our need to rent LR. Oh well. I to hope Palmer comes online.

[RSTPerformance]

For me the breaking point for a normal 2 day event is around $300 +/- $25 depending the event. For a single day event it is probably around $200 or so, but I have to have a specific reason for wanting to go to any single day regional...

Obviosly I am willing to pay more than my cut off point for "special" events. Every race at Lime Rock is not special to me, although I absolutely love the track.

Sure Andy I agree it is only $89 more, but at some point I have to say when... It is sorta like looking at options when buying a car, or even a diamond... The sales people are very good at saying for only $X more you can get this... and before you know it you have lots an arm and a leg. Some can afford "everything" while others can not. I can't. Those that can I encourage you to attend the races as you always have, thier is nothing wrong with you or someone else being able to afford to play at certain places even though others can not or will not.

With all that said I still think that it is rotten that the regions have forced people who want to be contenders in the NARRC series to go to these races, I hope it changes back for next year.

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Sure Andy I agree it is only $89 more, but at some point I have to say when... It is sorta like looking at options when buying a car, or even a diamond... The sales people are very good at saying for only $X more you can get this... and before you know it you have lots an arm and a leg. Some can afford "everything" while others can not. I can't. Those that can I encourage you to attend the races as you always have, thier is nothing wrong with you or someone else being able to afford to play at certain places even though others can not or will not.

With all that said I still think that it is rotten that the regions have forced people who want to be contenders in the NARRC series to go to these races, I hope it changes back for next year.

Raymond



[/b]

I guess my point was that nobody complains about the costs at NHIS - and for $89 more LRP is 'outrageous'. We all have our breaking points but the numbers don't make sense to me.

Look at the NARRC 'requirements' in a different light. Without them, these events may dry up and die. Loosing LRP all together won't be far behind...and how many events are you going to travel to at Pocono and WGI every year? You will burn up that $89 in gas the first time you go...

Every event on a ROVAL isn't my idea of a great road racing series.

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

I'd drive twice as far to race at Watkins Glen over LRP any day of the week. And that's even w/ the crappy track mgmt/policies at WG. I don't disagree that you have to be really good to be really fast at LRP, but it was just never that interesting to me. I'm not saying that it's boring, just not interesting to me. I think it's much better suited for marque events though. And I do agree, rovals suck.

[Tkczecheredflag]

I think I agree with Andy regarding the entry fees - it is an additional $89.00 but how does that measure up against the other racing costs? Sometimes LRP feels like we get a lot less track time but - the "double" format offers a bit more time - or at least on paper it feels that way - and it offers more NARRC points too.

I happen to like LRP for racing - it is technically challenging (lord knows I have not mastered it), and it challenges me to improve everytime I go there - especially with the new TEG. I am still slow in West Bend and look forward to the day that I can get from the "uphill" to Big Bend with my foot in the floor and stop feathering the gas- sounds like fun - no????

I too would welcome more WG and Pocono events and suspect I would have to support those regions that sanction those events - Tough to do when I am running the NARRC/NERRC schedule and I don't have a bottomless money pit.

Oh well.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Andy,

I'd drive twice as far to race at Watkins Glen over LRP any day of the week. And that's even w/ the crappy track mgmt/policies at WG. I don't disagree that you have to be really good to be really fast at LRP, but it was just never that interesting to me. I'm not saying that it's boring, just not interesting to me. I think it's much better suited for marque events though. And I do agree, rovals suck. [/b]

And I respect that. But at that point it isn't about cost because you would be throwing all that money in 'saved' saved entry fees right out at the gas pumps.

[Bill Miller]

And I respect that. But at that point it isn't about cost because you would be throwing all that money in 'saved' saved entry fees right out at the gas pumps.
[/b]

Actually, what you would be doing is spending the same amount, but racing at a much better track (IMHO).

[Andy Bettencourt]

Actually, what you would be doing is spending the same amount, but racing at a much better track (IMHO). [/b]

Now THAT would be debatable! :)

[dominojd]

Now THAT would be debatable! :)
[/b]

Quit man lovin LRP so much. We all know if your car didn't like LRP so much niether would you :P

[Bill Miller]

Now THAT would be debatable! :)
[/b]


That LRP is a better track than WG? You leave the cap off that jug of race gas again?? :D

Seriously, I have yet to meet anyone that's driven both tracks that would say that LRP is a better track.

[gran racing]

I've driven both tracks and like LRP more for multiple reasons.

[lateapex911]

Kinda like deciding between Jennifer Aniston and Courney Cox. Yea, I'd go with Jennifer in a hearbeat, but........

The Glen is great...a classic roadcourse, but Lime Rock has it's merits as well. Theres something about the place....it has subtlety. And armco isn't whacko baby blue .

[Greg Amy]

I've driven both tracks and like LRP more for multiple reasons.[/b]
Such as...?



Kinda like deciding between Jennifer Aniston and Courney Cox.[/b]
No, more like deciding between Jennifer and Kate Winslet. Kate's probably a nice romp, but it's not something you'd really prefer, given the choice...

But, then, there's always the guys that love the fat chicks.


...but Lime Rock has it's merits as well.[/b]
Such as... (part deaux...)?


Theres something about the place...[/b]
Yeah, "history", "legacy", "tradition", etc. We've been brainwashed by 50 years of SCCA/road racing history into thinking this was a really cool place...in actuality, it's got the same "je ne sais quoi" qualities of the old Mercury and Gemini launch pads at KSC: not particularly useful, but you feel compelled to go there anyway.

And LRP management takes advantage of that as much as possible.

[gran racing]

What’s so special about Lime Rock in my opinion?

I’ll start from an in-car perspective. There are two sections at LRP that I really love – the uphill and the down hill. I have several reasons why I enjoy these sections. Just to start: the uphill, going into it and feeling the car get light as the car crests the top. Too cool. Then there’s the down hill and seeing what type of guts I’ve got that day. (Usually not enough.) Now that was fun! I also like that the track is fairly short since I enjoy working with traffic. Sure, sometimes it works against me but that’s a part of racing.

A club racing weekend for me is more than just my on-track racing. Next time you’re at the track, take a minute and enjoy the surroundings. I truly enjoy watching the other races and friends I’ve gotten to know out there. The experience also extends beyond myself. My friends and family also enjoy attending events at LRP. There’s something special about bringing cooler, lawn chairs and blanket then sitting on the infield hill. It’s a great place to watch road racing! (Watching from the Glen is nothing in comparison.)

Those are the real reasons, but my heart does listen to the history be it a bit different than you might think. I grew up going to pro races with my father at LRP and the Memorial Day weekend event was always something I really, really looked forward to. I sat on those hills for many years watching and fantasizing that would be me out there. Now I am.

Go on, tell me how wrong I am with all of this. I really don’t care because this is how I personally view things.

[lateapex911]

OK, heres why I like Lime Rock.

I realize these are not all pure racing reasons, but hey, they are MY reasons, LOL.

- The area.... it's close and the area is nice to go to....pretty drive, and all that.
- the track is arguably one of the better looking tracks around. Parklike.
- it's not easy to get it really right there as it's a bit risky, with some close walls.
- it's tough to figure out the subtleties
- easy to get around.from paddock to pits to hill etc.
- lots of good viewing locations. I like racing, both doing and watching.
- it has showers, LOL. (barely)

Why I don't like Lime Rock-'

- The reverse oval nature of the place doesn't suit the built in inbalances inherent in my car
- The showers..not enough, and kinda "campy"
- Those close walls.
- No racing on Sundays. (see "area" above)
- The paddock is a lake in the rain, and theres often not enough in a large event.
- THe "Tough s8it attitude from the management.

As you can see, I am a bit conflicted on some items!

[Greg Amy]

What if I told you I just hit the Power Ball, and my goal in life was to build my own race track. I'm gonna make an exact replica of Lime Rock Park, only 1.5 miles around, same hills and turns, and even to the earthen walls, Aarmco close to the track (and the part sticking out at the drivers at the top of the Uphill), and I'm even going to replicate the "smoothness" of the asphalt surface. Can't race on Sunday, and I'll charge SCCA $53k (this year) for the track, and I'll even hire the same caterer to offer the same food selections. It'll be smack-dab in the middle of CT, halfway between Boston and NYC.

Will you show up? Will you herald my track as a great wonder and thank me for building it? Probably not. Hell, I'd probably hate it too...

The things that attract you guys to LRP are not always specifically the black stuff in between the steel walls and things that make it worth driving...so, basically, you're saying the view and the trees at the Left Hander (I tend to gag at the "park-like setting" comments from LRP's marketing department, especially when walking through the dusty infield, the vendors along the "midway", the asphalt skidpad, or through all the drunken spectators along No Name Straight) make it worth the entry fee.

Yeah, I used to sit at home in Texas and glue myself to the tube to watch the Memorial Day race(s) here, but I've gotten over it...it's no longer the Mecca/shrine it was to me 20 years ago.

[Doc Bro]

What I like...

Good for local friends to come and watch. Offers the best balance of "hey this is kinda nice, mixed with this isn't redneck at all!" It's as close to horse racing as car racing gets (if you don't get that one go to Saratoga to see the ponies.)

What I can't stand....

Obnoxiously prevalent CT attitude
The bridge leaving is just as challenging as the race itself.
The bumps...unless you've got the SCORE offroad suspension
When the summer storms come through hang on (06 runoffs)

R

[tom_sprecher]

What I can't stand....

Obnoxiously prevalent CT attitude

[/b]

I don't want to highjack this thread but what is a CT attitute? I have a buddy from CT and I love feed him crap. Help me out here.

Thanks

[gran racing]

Why even bother ask then Greg.

[Doc Bro]

Drive your rig through the NW corner of the state, you'll see. I ALWAYS go over the "picturesque" Cornwall bridge too!!! The cell phone tower they were proposing for that part of the state made the evening news as a headline for a week.

It's a time warp back to 1957.

Sorry to be biased I'm just not in love with living in CT. It's an educated opinion too....I've been to 48 of the 50 states.


R

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's OK Dave, Greg doesn't like it because his CAR doesn't like it. :P

My boy Leverone has driven a lot of 'out of state' tracks in the past few years (Laguna, Miller, Phoenix, RA, Three Rivers, VIR, Mid Ohio) along with all of our locals (LRP, NHIS, Pocono and WGI).

He will tell you that his fav is WGI - hands down - and he has no 'bad' tracks... :D I will get there in 08 and decide for myself. I DO like the uphill and downhill like you...

[Bill Miller]

I'm pretty much w/ Greg on this one. While the uphill and the downhill at LRP are both challenges, and for sure get your attention, that's about it. I honestly don't see it as being any more 'parklike' than WGI. The fall race up there is beautiful, not to mention the added bonus of the wineries. And while you may be able to see more of the track, as a spectator, at LRP, part of that is because it's about the size of the local Sat. night bull ring. And as far as history, etc. goes, I think WGI gets the nod there as well (USGP).

For those of you that have been around long enough to have raced at Bridgehampton, I'd like to hear how you compare it to LRP.

PS Sorry for the thread hijack.

[philstireservice]

I'm pretty much w/ Greg on this one. While the uphill and the downhill at LRP are both challenges, and for sure get your attention, that's about it. I honestly don't see it as being any more 'parklike' than WGI. The fall race up there is beautiful, not to mention the added bonus of the wineries. And while you may be able to see more of the track, as a spectator, at LRP, part of that is because it's about the size of the local Sat. night bull ring. And as far as history, etc. goes, I think WGI gets the nod there as well (USGP).

For those of you that have been around long enough to have raced at Bridgehampton, I'd like to hear how you compare it to LRP.

PS Sorry for the thread hijack.
[/b]

Ahhh The Bridge........One of the great tracks also. Bill and I spent almost an entire ride down to VIR last fall discussing all the wonders of this challenging and rewarding icon of American road racing history.

Limerock is a very deceiving track. It may look easy at first glance/ride....but to be fast, you need to put a few thousand miles on it and then re-think that easy comment.

Bridgehampton ...not deceiving at all. Fast and Furious, as they say.............encompasses just about everything in every track that I have ever come across in my racing career. I have had many great memories and reached many self accomplishments at The Bridge. Not to mention, a few disappointments also. Would have had my first win there, if it wasn't for a red flag incident on the last lap, caused by me and Tom Natasi. The Bridge was my most favorite track......now it's Watkins Glen. But there are still more to drive and throw into the mix.


Phil

[alfa]

For those of you that have been around long enough to have raced at Bridgehampton, I'd like to hear how you compare it to LRP.[/b]

No comparison, other than the track surfaces. I like LRP and Watkins Glen way better than NHIS, but Bridgehampton was a completely different ballgame.

The only current track layout that is comparable is Mont Tremblant. But Mont Tremblant was recently paved and sections of Bridgehampton may never have been paved.

The other big difference was that without competetive horses, you couldn't keep up at the Bridge (as at the Glen). At LRP, you can get by with good driving and preserving momentum.

[RSTPerformance]

The only current track layout that is comparable is Mont Tremblant. But Mont Tremblant was recently paved and sections of Bridgehampton may never have been paved.

[/b]


Tremblant is my #1 choice!!! Long track or short track, both are a blast IMO :) To me it has all the best parts about Lime Rock and WG put together :) Not to mention the best Ski Area in North America is the backdrop scenery!!!

Raymond

[Eric Parham]

I only did one lap at the Bridge, just before they pulled the plug. Not enough time to really form an impression, other than wishing I had a deer whistle on that old Formula Ford... No harm done, but I'm sure that both me and that deer would have given that blind right (uphill as I recall) a little more respect in the future!

My favorite semi-local track is the Glen. Beautiful area, too. For those who like the Glen, there's a fantastic new track in Canada called Calabogie (near Ottawa). I ran it hard last year in my street car (GTI VR6, and hard enough to fall off a couple of times). It's both beautiful and incredibly challenging :D

I do love Lime Rock, though. It is definitely not "easy" to approach the limit there. One has to be acutely aware of changing track conditions, and the fastest way through some corners is also the riskiest (e.g., double-apex Big Bend with threshold braking to edge, sometimes sandy, for 2nd turn-in). Keeping the go-pedal flat from the Esses to Big Bend can take more than courage and skill; sometimes it seems to need a bit of magic wishing dust too.

I've crewed at many other tracks across the US that looked interesting, but haven't managed to race at most of them yet. Have to say I liked the old Bryer course a bit more than NHIS, even though I only saw it once for my first-ever track experience with COM (great club, BTW).

Palmer, Palmer, Palmer, . . .