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timo944
04-09-2007, 04:46 PM
A couple fo weeks ago at Road Atlanta, there were a reported 5 failures of aluminum control arms on 944's - presumably the majorioty at the ball joint.

Whats the story on aftermarket replacements - has anybody in the past seriously lobbied the board to allow in-kind replacements?

timo

Greg Amy
04-09-2007, 05:00 PM
Several have tried to get replacements approved for other failure modes - the Rabbit front wheel hubs jumps to mind - and all have failed. You can use exact replacement aftermarket parts, but improved aftermarket parts are a no-no.

Doesn't hurt to ask, but I can't imagine the ITAC/CRB opening that Pandora's box... - GA

JeffYoung
04-09-2007, 05:02 PM
I believe it has happened twice:

1. Volvo 142 valve springs and

2. Rear hub/disc conversion on the GM Quad 4 cars.

The others as Greg mentioned were shot down.

Seems like a lot of 944 guys do fine --- what are they doing? Loading the suspension differently?

dj10
04-09-2007, 05:12 PM
I believe it has happened twice:

1. Volvo 142 valve springs and

2. Rear hub/disc conversion on the GM Quad 4 cars.

The others as Greg mentioned were shot down.

Seems like a lot of 944 guys do fine --- what are they doing? Loading the suspension differently? [/b]



I have seen many failures of the 944 control arms but I must admit they were the Turbo's. Chris C. would be the one to ask on the NA 944.

latebrake
04-09-2007, 06:16 PM
Lowered cars bind at the ball joint. i am not a big fan of the alm stuff anyway. crack too much and gives no warning. i like the steel a arms. raise the car back up and the risk drops a lot but the car is too high to corner as well. its dangerous so the board should alow aftermarket a arms. could limit bearings or something. the spindels break on the early cars because of the hole for the speedo cable. you can change it out and no one says anything. whys that? (left front)

Knestis
04-09-2007, 07:10 PM
I had a fender get pushed into a tire, cutting the tread. If we hadn't caught it, the tire would have failed. Steel fenders are obviously a safety issue, so the ITAC should allow fiberglass fenders on the MkIII VW Golf. They would be safer.

K

JeffYoung
04-09-2007, 09:16 PM
Depending on the track, I have brake failures, melted caliper seals, every race or every couple of weekends. I sure would like to use vented rotors and change out those drums in the back since this is a safety issue.

RSTPerformance
04-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Audi's are so well built we don't have any of these issues ;) You all need to get a good car :)

Raymond

JeffYoung
04-09-2007, 09:37 PM
Beleive me Raymond, I've thought of that.

Greg Amy
04-09-2007, 09:45 PM
Yep, my power steering system overheats, causing lines to rupture. not only is it a safety hazard to me, but to others on the track as well.

In the interest of safety, the ITAC should let me remove the power steering system on the NX2000.

JeffYoung
04-09-2007, 10:19 PM
Timo, don't want to make light of something that can be a safety issue, but this is one of those things that you just have to deal with in IT unfortunately (or fortunately). If the car can't be lowered past a certain point without risk of failure, then that is a performance limitation (in order to avoid a safety one).

For example, on my side, I have to do a number of things to minimize my brake problems. I have to use a less aggressive pad (with corresponding less stopping power) to minimize heat. I'm going to have to run 15" wheels to get better cooling, even though 13"s are better for gearing at most tracks. I have to run SRF fluid, even though it is expensive. And, I have to manage the brakes during a race. I get 3-4 laps of hard stopping power (hopefully enough to open up a decent gap to the next car) before I have to take it easy on the brakes.

JLawton
04-10-2007, 07:20 AM
Audi's are so well built we don't have any of these issues ;) You all need to get a good car :)

Raymond
[/b]


Hmmmmmm, didn't one of you have a wheel fall of and end up in the swamp?? I'll stick with my Saturn, thank you!! :D

RSTPerformance
04-10-2007, 09:15 AM
Hmmmmmm, didn't one of you have a wheel fall of and end up in the swamp?? I'll stick with my Saturn, thank you!! :D
[/b]

us, never... We have not ever had any safety ot other misc failures from VW Rabit type/sized parts on an Audi boat...

I don't want Timo to go away from this site angry at our sarcastic, but fun reply's... My reply is in good fun, and I wnat to point out that this is the correct place to ask about these questions. All of us "old timers" (not just you Jeff) need to remember that (if anyone was not just "having fun with the reply." I hope that Timo realizes that most of us were/are having fun with the reply's.

Since our family is building a 944S for ITS, I do appreciate Timo for bringing up the topic as it is something that we should maybe keep our eyes on :)

Raymond "Go Germany" Blethen

924Guy
04-10-2007, 09:21 AM
Hmmmmmm, didn't one of you have a wheel fall of and end up in the swamp?? I'll stick with my Saturn, thank you!! :D
[/b]

Oh, yeah, that car's never seen a wheel come loose... :blink: :birra:

JeffYoung
04-10-2007, 10:05 AM
Yep, not trying to piss Timo off, and I feel for him. That is a nasty failure. Just no real way to fix it in the IT milieu.

JamesB
04-10-2007, 10:15 AM
Preventative maintinence. The rabbit/scirocco you replace wheel bearings every few races if not sooner. MK2 golf you replace the wheel bearing and hub every season or face failure. RX7's go through front rotors like flaggers go through beer at the beer party. Each car has its quirks and issues and the only way to avoid them is knowing the problem areas and properly maintaining and preparing the car.

Knestis
04-10-2007, 11:15 AM
Yup. What they said.

I'm out of the rules NERD biz but there's a LONG history in this club of rationalizing allowances by playing the safety card. Almost anything can be put in those terms.

K

924Guy
04-10-2007, 11:28 AM
Yeah, remember what Joey said once upon a time about needing remote reservoir shocks?? LOL!

benspeed
04-10-2007, 11:34 AM
If I remember right, Kip had a failure and hit the wall hard last year in his 944s - big repair bill and a nasty scare. Ball joint or control arm failure.

Comp board really should consider this.

Gary L
04-10-2007, 11:51 AM
I believe it has happened twice:

1. Volvo 142 valve springs and

2. Rear hub/disc conversion on the GM Quad 4 cars.

The others as Greg mentioned were shot down. [/b]

If the Volvo valve spring allowance ever happened, it must've been many years ago. There is no such current allowance, nor has there been for at least the past 4 years. The GM rear hub allowance however, is currently in the ITCS spec table "Notes:" column.

Knestis
04-10-2007, 12:37 PM
...Comp board really should consider this.[/b]
...and be prepared for the flood of requests that they can't argue against on the same grounds, if they approve it. Whee!

K

Team SSR
04-10-2007, 01:07 PM
If you are racing a 944 it is a race car, not a street car and needs to be maintained like a race car, not a street car. Aluminum or steel control arms need to have a consistent and frequent inspection and a scheduled replacement interval. I don't think there are many cases of a catastrphic failure that didn't give any warning signs.

lateapex911
04-10-2007, 04:45 PM
...and be prepared for the flood of requests that they can't argue against on the same grounds, if they approve it. Whee!

K [/b]

It seems like there is a request like this every other month or so, and the ITAC has been pretty unanimous in it's response.

Sorry, but it's one of those things that goes with the turf in IT. I know there are allowances in PCA for it, but if it were allowed, the floodgates would open. Marque clubs have considerabley more freedom to make such allowances than the SCCA does with the hundreds of cars in the IT category. The weird GM thing is very very old, and nobody today really knows how and why it got there. We'd love to eliminatate it, but.......well, thats another story.

ChrisCamadella
04-12-2007, 11:27 AM
The (aluminum, I have no experience with steel) control arms do not break, if you care for them correctly. You DO need to inspect them for each session - if there's ANY play in the ball joint, you change the arm.

I think most of the failures are the result of lowering to the point of the ball joint being bent past its normal limit (you fix this by not lowering the car that much), or by the use of a very big sway bar with stock (or the like) springs.

I never had one fail catastrophically, and I once finished a three hour enduro with a loose ball joint...

YMMV, of course.

KC944
04-12-2007, 03:11 PM
PCA club racing recomends Charlie Arms - replacement A arms, for stock classes. This is a safty issue not a preformance enhancment.

KC944

944 S2 ITR or PCA F Stock

dj10
04-12-2007, 03:21 PM
PCA club racing recomends Charlie Arms - replacement A arms, for stock classes. This is a safty issue not a preformance enhancment.

KC944

944 S2 ITR or PCA F Stock [/b]

The Porsche Club will not let 944 Turbo's race unless they have the control arm replaced.

lateapex911
04-13-2007, 05:32 PM
The Porsche Club will not let 944 Turbo's race unless they have the control arm replaced.

[/b]

Which isn't an indication of a faulty part per se, but perhaps more of a systematic issue, and as a 13/13 club, they are very sensitive to such issues. Also, as a marque club, they have more luxuries in their rules writing than other clubs.

dj10
04-13-2007, 06:46 PM
Which isn't an indication of a faulty part per se, but perhaps more of a systematic issue, and as a 13/13 club, they are very sensitive to such issues. Also, as a marque club, they have more luxuries in their rules writing than other clubs.
[/b]

Jake, you are correct. The control arms are a high maintenance item. Porsche found this out rather quickly when they started to race the 944 NA/ 944 Turbo's. Don't forget they came with about 247 hp in the 944 turbo s while the 944 turbo Escort/ World Challange cars started with 250 hp in there light weight configuration. When I raced mine, I think I was around 340 hp @ rwhp and with 17" wheels. As you can see, there would have been an enormous amount of additional stress placed on the suspension points.

So all you 944 drivers be careful, to break a control arm @ a high speed turn would probably not turn out good.

Knestis
04-13-2007, 10:02 PM
Apropos of nothing (I LOVE that!) is it true that the A-arms in question are the same as on a Golf? I'm thinking I could run me some of those dangerous pieces on something like a NASA GTS car and save some poundage.

K

Team SSR
04-13-2007, 11:37 PM
The aluminum arms are not so bad if you are allowed to put a good ball joint in them or use the bronze bushing track kit from Rennbay. I don't think they would fit a Golf. However, the early steel ones very well may and they are about $24 apiece.

jsilverman
04-14-2007, 09:26 AM
However, the early steel ones very well may and they are about $24 apiece.
[/b]
The early arms are the same as a rabbit.

Bill Miller
04-16-2007, 02:43 PM
I believe it has happened twice:

1. Volvo 142 valve springs and

2. Rear hub/disc conversion on the GM Quad 4 cars.

The others as Greg mentioned were shot down.

Seems like a lot of 944 guys do fine --- what are they doing? Loading the suspension differently?
[/b]

And no one has yet been able to explain how/why/when this came about. Seems there's no documentation on it in Topeka, just what's in the ITCS.

RacerBill
04-18-2007, 07:58 AM
The early arms are the same as a rabbit.
[/b]

Early = <85 1/2
Late = >=85 1/2

My luck, I have the later model :(

timo944
04-18-2007, 10:50 PM
Man, ask a simple question ....

Doesn&#39;t hurt to ask. I watched a Turbo at the PCA enduro come down 12 straight into the tires underneath the start/finich line. Musta gone 6 feet in the air. Lesson: Check the ball joints

Thanks for y&#39;alls input.

Knestis
04-18-2007, 11:06 PM
If the early 944 A-arms are the same as the Rabbit, are the later ones the same as a later Golf? That year break above corresponds pretty closely with the Rabbit/Golf II split.

K

loopracing
04-19-2007, 12:45 AM
No, they are not like the Golf control arms. They are cast aluminum versions of the Rabbit control arms. The ball joint is cast into the arm and is larger dia. than the Rabbit ball joint.

Knestis
04-19-2007, 08:51 AM
Sorry - I wasn&#39;t nearly precise enough with my question. Are they the same dimensions as the VW part? Length, bushing size, etc.?

K

JamesB
04-19-2007, 10:08 AM
Kirk they are the SAME part number on the 924 and early 944 from what I can tell searching 3 different parts databases. Its the late model that are a different part number (and much more expensive.)



Front Control Arm, Left or Right, 2 Per Car, 924S/944 (1983-1/85), Each $28.25

171-407-153D-M6069 Front Control Arm, Left or Right, 2 Per Car, 924S/944 (1983-1/85), Each $28.25

951-341-027-00-M100 Front Control Arm, Cast Aluminum, Left, 944/944 Turbo (02/85-86), Each $417.00

951-341-028-00-M100 Front Control Arm, Cast Aluminum, Right, 944/944 Turbo (02/85-86), Each $418.50

944-341-027-02-M100 Front Control Arm, Cast Aluminum, Left, 944/944S/944 Turbo (1987-88), 944S2 (1989-91), 968 (1991-95), Each $608.00

944-341-028-02-M100 Front Control Arm, Cast Aluminum, Right, 944/944S/944 Turbo (1987-88), 944S2 (1989-91), 968 (1991-95), Each $411.75

[/b]


Ball joints are only seperate on early non aluminum control arms. The rest look cast or pressed in.

924Guy
04-19-2007, 10:13 AM
Now&#39;s a great time for a reminder that 924&#39;s are cheap and competitive!!! No $10k Milledge engines!!! No pricey timing belt failures! Same great brakes and chassis, same great dynamics! Donors and parts cars are stupid cheap! Cheap steel suspension arms, they bend, don&#39;t break!

LOL

JamesB
04-19-2007, 10:17 AM
yeap. Jason bought his for that reason. hes doing HPDE now but eventually move to club racing with a 924.

924Guy
04-19-2007, 12:48 PM
Cool - you know where to send him when he does! Would love to see some pics, meantime... We&#39;ve now got two up and running locally - a rookie starting up this year in a 24 originally from your area. Plus a 924S, old driver/new car, joining 2 or 3 other ITS 944&#39;s - will have to get some pics this year!

OK, back to your regularly scheduled debate! :dead_horse:

jsilverman
05-01-2007, 02:32 PM
Im right here :) I actually have a 924s, but Ive elected to skip the milledge engine, and the timing belt is brand new so hopefully I can get by without any expensive repairs. Im hoping to have the car finished by next year, and in the meantime drive the wheels off of it. :eclipsee_steering: Ill probably end up in 944 cup, but since the local SCCA chapter is so active the car will be kept IT legal so I guess Ill be going through that rite of passage known as replacing torsion bars shortly.

924Guy
05-02-2007, 08:47 AM
Very nice! We just got a new ITS 924S up and running for the season up here, and another ITB 924... will be plenty of those pesky front-Porches at the track this season!