Front Swaybar = How many #'s of spring?

[Sandro]

On my Rabbit (83 GTI) I need to remove the front stock swaybar inorder for my new header to fit.

Does anyone have an approximation as to how much I will need to increase the front springs inorder to compensate for not running the sway bar?

Also any idea on how much spring the Neuspeed 22mm bar would equal?

Thanks

[racer_tim]

Depending on if you run an LSD, some people don't even run a front sway bar.

I have a different setup. The front sway bar, goes "forward" and mounts on a cross member that attaches to the lower control points. Basically, the front sway bar is attached to a lower stress bar.

I also run a locked front diff, so my setup is different. I run about a 22mm front bar, with a 19mm rear bar, with 500 lbs front springs and 350 lbs rear.

I do have access to a Quaife but don't want to have to re-invent my setup.

[BlueStreak]

I'm running the same "relocate forward" setup that Tim is running, and same bar sizes, to avoid my Techtonics long tube header, except I'm running 400lb springs in the back. It makes for a fast car, but it is VERY unforgiving with 400lb springs in the back.

[JamesB]

Meanwhile I am a running no front sway bar, both with a locked diff in the past and a peloquin now. Last years setup was 550f, 350r with a 29mm rear bar. It was nice but i found I still had some issues on certain corners and chose to try a setup another ITB guy had been using and sold to me when he moved to a neon. This season I am going to try out 700# fronts and 400# rears with the 29mm rear swaybar.

[Spinnetti]

I'm not hatin' but whats with the super high spring rates.. The bunny goes all dog leg in nearly stock form as it is doesn't it? I would think super stiff springs would make that worse? I see the Honda guys run real stiff to and it seems to work, but kinda contradicts the "race/tune/build to win" books where they say run just enough spring rate to keep the bodywork off the tires, and use bar for the rest... my rear driver went fine for years under 200lb front and rear (am up to 300 in the front, but 175 in the rear). (I race a Toyota, but Have had several early bunnies, Scirocco, 3 Audis including my current A4 and a Touareg tow car).

[JamesB]

The super high spring rates is to try and keep my inside front wheel on the ground. I have several pictures that even with the 550/350 setup and the rear sway while on 3 I still open up a gap on my inside tire. Now I could try running a front sway and less spring in the front with no sway in the rear and more spring but the last time I ran an mk2 on the track setup that way I was pushing both on and off the throttle. This setup works for me, I am smooth and getting faster and I get the rotation I want out of the car in most corners, I am hoping the higher spring rates will help me.

[Spinnetti]

The super high spring rates is to try and keep my inside front wheel on the ground. I have several pictures that even with the 550/350 setup and the rear sway while on 3 I still open up a gap on my inside tire. Now I could try running a front sway and less spring in the front with no sway in the rear and more spring but the last time I ran an mk2 on the track setup that way I was pushing both on and off the throttle. This setup works for me, I am smooth and getting faster and I get the rotation I want out of the car in most corners, I am hoping the higher spring rates will help me.
[/b]


Hmm.. Ok, thanks for the info. I borrowed a buddies CRX set up real stiff on a track day, and I could barely drive it! (like driving a mustang ;)

[JamesB]

There are some differences in how you setup and drive a RWD car vs. a FWD car. The one thing about a stiff car, you have to be able to push the car fast enough to be able to use the stiff setup. At the begining of last season I know I wasn't working the suspension as much as at the end of the season. pictures, video from behind me show exactly that. But when I can see my car nearly bottomed out on the outside front of the car it means very little weight is on the inside front wheel. So thats why I increased the spring rates and will know for sure in a few weeks how differnt the car is.

[JLawton]

Used to run 600/550 with no front sway bar and two Shine bars on the back on my GTi. That was heavier than most but it worked for me.

[rabbidmk1]

I was running 550# up front with 425# in the rear of my MK1 with a stock front bar. The car handled fairly neutral. In the MK3 we decided to go with an 800# front with a 550# rear. hopefully with this setup I will not have to add a Rear bar to get the rotation I am looking for.


Aaron

[shwah]

I run 550 front and rear, larger Neuspeed rear bar, stock GLI front bar. I have considered running more spring, based on results with a much lighter Rabbit my friend runs. I have also considered a larger front bar, just to see what it does for me - despite all the advise to the contrary.

I just like to prove it to myself sometimes. :bash_1_:

[Bill Miller]

I ran 650F/375R w/ 2 big rear bars and no front bar on my Mk I ITB GTI. Car was very neutral to a tick loose on a dry track when the tires were up to temp. It was treacherous on a wet track or cold track, or before the tires were warm. To solve that problem, I'd remove one of the rear bars.

One of the problems w/ a front bar on an A1 chassis VW is that it tends to lift the inside front wheel as well, and make the car push. I know there are guys that run less front spring and a front bar, but I know way more that run stiffer front springs and no front bar. It worked for me. That's also the way I have my HP Rabbit set up.

[msogren]

I use no front bar and 450# fronts on A1. No bar and about 550# on the A2. The front bar upsets the outer front tire when the car is curbed on the inside of turns. T he big bar pulls down the body , onto the outside front tire, loosing the camber control and upseting the weight transfer, front and rear.
The bar also lowers the inside tire traction. And the weight is substantial.
The handling books say to use a bar. The books dont race very tall VW race cars with struts, or drive over the curbs to shorten the line. They also say to not run the control arms pointed up any, and the fast cars start withthe A arms flat and they point up as soon as the car is turned. That is also why the very stiff springs go faster. The A arm does not travel to the high angles as soon, with the roll center going way high.
Try the welded diff with the big # front and some adjust ment for the rear.
That seems to be the fastest, the welded diff keeps the inside front tire from locking up in the brake zones and pulls a lot better from the apex out. IMHO. When the setup is right , you wear out all the tires at pretty much the same session. with the outer front gone and the outer rear next.
Also, As I mentioned, the bushing induced ,rear steer seems to allow less rear spring wihile returning a very nice, neutral car .
Mike Ogren

[shwah]

Yeah the heavy springs keep our suspension from doing bad things by not letting it move. I don't have what I consider heavy springs on my car right now. It can allow you to run a car lower than the experts say is correct with good results.

[Bill Miller]

Part of the problem w/ the front control arms angled up is the front roll center going under ground, but what I found to be the big problem is that you get nasty bump steer as the tie rod end is already well away from the tangent point in its arc of travel.

[shwah]

Very true. I forgot about correcting that on the Production car. Certainly a limiting factor for IT use.

[Dave Zaslow]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/t...rforce_calc.php (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/torsionbarforce_calc.php)

[deepgrooves74]

I am really loving reading the posts on this thread, but I was wondering if anyone could chime in on one variable that has not come into the conversation...

tires...
1) what pressures are you running (cold/hot) in the front and rears.
2) is everyone here running the same size/brand??
3) please chime in with your spring rates, and front/rear sway bar rates



I would think that this information would also directly influence the way your car is handling... yes?

cj

..............................

2004 WRX Wagon
1984 VW Rabbit

dead...
many vw's rabbits, sciroccos, A2 Golfs...
Toyota celica GT 1984
1st car 1978 Mustang Also (II)

[Sandro]

Im thinking of getting the front struts revalved for 550# springs. What rebound/compression would you guys recommend to go with?

Are most of you running 8" springs?

[msogren]

Different tires have different hot target pressures. The cold # is only for the first time out for the day.
My hot target# is 32 front, that works on the Spec racer 205/60 13 tires, 34 pushes, 30 rolls poor, so 32 is what I want for most of the race. The cold # might be 26 or 27. The front springs need to be 500-650. The 650 wont work with any stock rubber stuff, so i use 500 front because i use the Passat upper strut bearings and lower control arm bearings. Bilstein shox ,standard. 100$ from autozone.
The rear just has to turn in. Add more spring or swaybar and toe out, until it works. usually about 500# wheel rate. The tire pressures can be the final adjustment, along with fuel load. 38-60# in the rear is not uncommon. Welded diff needs about 350 rear wheel rate, open ,stock diff needs a lot of rear spring and is way slow. Quaife is between.
If it wont turn , add air and remove fuel until you look out the side windows, than put 2 gal of gas back in.
My welded diff Rocco is stupid loose until I get heat in the rear tires, then it hooks tight.
8in springs sound right but I may have 7in , along with Coleman adjusters. they are the best and cheapest, MM

[JamesB]

60psi????? I would never go that high on any tire. In road racing you build more heat thus you dont start with pressures like that. The goal of my hoosiers is 40PSI when I come off, usually im very close to that starting with 30-32psi front, 34-36 rear. That is all depending on the ambient temp and track temp.

As for springs, I run 7" now because thats what shine sells with their kit that I bought off someone. The old spring setup was for the original ground control on the car and they where 8" springs.

[JohnRW]

60psi????? I would never go that high on any tire. In road racing you build more heat thus you dont start with pressures like that. [/b]

Au contraire, Pierre.

You do what you need to do to get the car to turn. Mr. Ogren 'Crew Chiefed' (and co-drove a bit, I remember) several of our 24 Hour efforts, and I myownsef had a preference for the car with 75-80+ lbs. of air (hot) in the back of the car to 'loosen the bitch up'. As I recall, we took a couple of "1st Place" trophies home from those 24's.

He may be a mad-man, but sometimes he's right.

[JamesB]

Wow 2x the max PSI of the tire? If I had to do that to make my car rotate I would be seriously reconsidering the cars setup before the next time it was to try to be competitive.

[Lael Cleland]

500# front 650-700# rear no front sway, twin rear sway. 30psi front hot, 35 rear,36-40 if its not rotating.

What kind of tire wear are you getting with 60 psi?

[Bildon]

Wow.. I thought A1 setups were pretty much "a known" after all these years..... :D

So ... :024:

I haven't seen anyone mention rear camber. Stand the tire up so it will rotate in roll. Super high pressure is something I would only accept as an option in an AX car where you had no other legal options to tune. On a road course thats just silly. silly=dangerous. You may wind up with blistered tires or a car that is extremely unstable under braking. If you find you MUST run 60 psi to rotate your setup wrong or your car is really bent.

A good set of shocks as another tuning aid. Something with a rebound adjustment that will help rear rotation. (KW, Koni, PSS9 etc)

A front swaybar does nothing positive on a FWD car. If you wind up with a car/driver that likes (or needs) very soft front springs then and only then can you go with a stock or lighter than stock front bar to limit roll. It still will reduce inside front tire grip and induce wheel spin coming out of corners. A good LSD will help.

>> I also run a locked front diff, so my setup is different. I run about a 22mm front bar, with a 19mm rear bar, with 500 lbs front springs and 350 lbs rear.

Tim what happens on your car when you remove the front bar?

>> It makes for a fast car, but it is VERY unforgiving with 400lb springs in the back.

Eddie, how much camber and what kind of toe do you run back there? Do you have all solid rear bushings?

>> The bunny goes all dog leg in nearly stock form as it is doesn't it? I would think super stiff springs would make that worse?

No a stiff spring will limit roll more and reduce the amount of "3 wheelin". Now having said that there are obvious negatives to a high spring rate ... reduced grip for example. I think you are thinking about the rear axle beam stiffness. If you stiffen the beam with a big sway bar it will lift a wheel immediately. But the benefits of a stiff rear outweigh the loss of traction on the VERY lightly loaded inside rear tire.

>> I am going to try out 700# fronts and 400# rears

James, try swapping your springs front to rear... as long as the rear camber an toe are under control, you'll go faster. You might want to come down on that rear spring rate from 700 to 550 though with a big rear bar.

>> books where they say run just enough spring rate to keep the bodywork off the tires, and use bar for the rest

That advice is a bit more applicable to a RWD setup where the rears are in need of traction coming off a corner. But that is also OLD info... modern shocks allow us to control a much heavier spring which will allow you to have car that will RESPOND quickly to driver inputs and be fast on transitions. If we raced ovals it would be different. Now having said that it is still true that a lighter spring will have a theoretically higher potential for grip than a stiffer one... but the car is raced under non laboratory conditions.


>> to try and keep my inside front wheel on the ground.

It's really not possible on the beam axle cars. You're better off accepting that fact and going for maximum corning speed and drivability than trying to keep all 4 on the ground.

>> I borrowed a buddies CRX set up real stiff on a track day, and I could barely drive it!

A Honda rear suspension (correct me if I'm wrong) has an inboard mounted spring with a motion ration somewhat other than 1:1. therefore a 1000# spring on the rear of a Honda is NOT a 1000# at the wheel like it would be on a VW. The rear sway bar has a largely different effect on the rear of a Honda as well. So you cant just pull a setup off any FWD car and have it work on a beam axle VW.

>> In the MK3 we decided to go with an 800# front with a 550# rear. hopefully with this setup I will not have to add a Rear bar to get the rotation I am looking for.

It's all about "balance". You need to think of the car as a whole and not just what each end wants independently. You may find this works for you but I would argue that removing the front bar, or leaving it there and going with a stiffer rear bar will give you the proper balance you are looking for without going too a real high rear rate. With 800/550 I'm thinking you'll have quite a bit of understeer and poor front grip in slow/tight corners.
You may wind up compensating with toe out up front and rear more camber up front...but both those things are reducing tire grip to true and obtain the effect. Try swapping your front and rear springs.

>> The handling books say to use a bar. The books dont race very tall VW race cars with struts (edit: and a beam axle)

Exactly :026:

>> Try the welded diff with the big # front and some adjust ment for the rear.

What did you find with a welded diff and no front bar?

>> Part of the problem w/ the front control arms angled up is the front roll center going under ground

Here is one area where a stiff front spring can help. (by virtually eliminating roll) but then you have push and grip issues. VWs can NOT be lowered like a Ferrari.. PERIOD. Drive it high and proud or get a Honda :P

>> 1) what pressures are you running (cold/hot) in the front and rears.
>> 3) please chime in with your spring rates, and front/rear sway bar rates

1. Follow the tire manuf. suggestions for their hot pressure target. Adjust your cold pressure so that you reach their hot pressure target noting that sometimes on a light VW the rear will never make it to optimum temp on days below 100* track temps. Once you find that cold pressure, you should work on the suspension setup as that will change your temps. Keep an eye on them and adjust up or down as needed. Then after you've got the kinematics all sorted you can use tire pressure tweaking as a fine tune for flaky sets of tires, rain, hot cold days, odd track surfaces etc. Do not use pressure to cure a massive push etc. Something else is wrong in that case.

3. A lot of what has been said here depends on the driver. There are guys out there who think they are 'bad fast' but if you put them in a car with a loose rear end they will freak out and say it's a scary undrivable mess! :mad1: For them (and take an honest look at your own skills here) they need a car with more understeer to be comfortable. They will always be a bit slower than a loose car since they will not be able to pick up the throttle as soon... which btw is THE name of the game. But their confidence will be higher and they will enjoy their race car more.

For those that CAN handle a loose FWD car. Your goal is to become Pobst/Kleinubing ... Counter-steering while ENTERING the corners is not unheard of in a FWD car.... watch some in-car video of Pierre at Mosport in the RSX for a good example. Picking up the throttle should "set" the car by transferring weight rearward which vertically loads the rear tires causing them to grip and then by mid corner you should be at WOT.

Watch Greg's hand position here at mid corner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_pgUUhIjAw
Notice how he's often bringing his hands back to near center as the rear is leading the front? Well setup.
Also notice how he just blows by all the VWs on the start... and finally Zaslow in the boot. What's up with that Dave?! :P

TRAIL BRAKING is generally very bad in a FWD unless you are on the "defense line". I say a defense line because braking early squaring off the corner and accelerating early will leave you open to attack from behind. Trail braking overloads the front tires. Again the driver is usually one of the biggest influences on this understeer. Trail braking is a recipe for understeer. Did I mention I dont like trailbraking in a FWD? :D

The main problem on corner exit is how to kill the understeer. For those with 100hp it's not a big deal. However on our Corrado (and any VW in damp conditions) it is an issue. Early rotation is key.

For those with adjustable shocks here is what I see working in VWs...Generally I run quite a bit of front & rear rebound to try to keep the car flat on turn in. The rebound is also to stop the front from tending to lift under acceleration after the transition from brake to accelerator... Front bump is kept soft to maximize grip and prevent hop on rough surfaces, rear bump can be set higher. Generally rebound needs to be at least twice the bump setting and depends a lot on the driver and how bumpy or smooth the track is.

The above is from 30 years of experience in putting my nose in where is doesn't belong and picking the brains of those who were fast even before I started driving. The Hackers, Pate Brothers, ICY Racing, Oag, Schwartzott, Pobst, VW Motorsport, and probably a 100 other VW racer's info and data have filtered through my notebooks over the years... When I was working in IMSA back in the late 80s early 90s I was fortunate enough to talk regularly to the pros when the Scirocco 16v, Golf GTI and Corrado G60 were being raced professionally. In almost every case... those who went fastest were softer in front, stiffer in rear and ran little to no bar up front and lots of bar in the rear. Today's setups are not much different. Our cars and cars like those Christian Miller's World Challenge Jetta are playing with similar setups... we're going bigger in the rear bar while lowering spring rates... shocks and shock DATA are keys here.

Remember it's about WHEEL RATE not spring rate. So throw your Honda setups out and remember that the rear bar directly affect your rear spring rate. IOW a 500#/400# setup with a big rear bar means this car is much stiffer in the rear than front contrary to what the spring rates alone show.

I could go on and on about contact patch, camber gain in roll, camber thrust, RC axis wrt to mass centroid, scrub, offset, shock valving relative to wheel motion, shock frequency histograms (very useful tool BTW) ackerman, compromises ... yadda yadda yadda.. but you guys need something to do in between events. :D

:eclipsee_steering:

[JamesB]

Bill true, but see the 700/400 setup is actually what i bought off someone. I chose to keep the cars 550/350 setup on the car because the other spring rates seemed rather high for a 2300# car. But after looking at video and a few well snapped pictures I am hitting the internal bump stops in tight turns where I shouldnt. Others pointed out that say turn 10 in SP I dont lift a wheel my car rolls into the turn. So since I already had the springs and I know the shocks are vavled for it I went with that setup. Its the only major setup change I made for this season so I will let everyone know monday how I like it.

I have also driven a golf with a setup you mentioned and while it was fast in the wram and dry, it was very very twitchy in rain and cold mornings (always looks bad when an instructor goes out and spins on very cold tires.)

[Bildon]

>> I have also driven a golf with a setup you mentioned

I didnt explain the whole set up... :) Yes, It will be very loose in the rear until warm but also you have to do a lot to the rear to stop the beam from twisting, bending, and the bushings from slopping around. If you dont it will be a mess back there. You've seen my posts here about the rear beam anti-toe linkage? That and spherical bearings and things that are also not legal in IT are required to get it "nailed" back there.

http://www.bildon.com/pub/toe_link.jpg

http://www.bildon.com/pub/Rear_Geometry_Fast_002.gif

[JamesB]

Yeap well aware of your discussions about that, problem is I dont know many legal ways to stop it, so instead im trying to reduce the front roll without reducing my traction a great deal. The 550's where nice but I still got inside wheel spin in some hard long corners due to body roll. I figure ill give this a shot and see if this setup that was recomended to the previous owner by SRS will work to my advantage.

I need to make a change, I figured this one didnt cost me more then an alignment so ill try it first.

[Bildon]

>>> It still will reduce inside front tire grip and induce wheel spin coming out of corners. A good LSD will help.

You need this ... It's new. From Europe, comes with its own stub shafts which are integral with the gears.
More plates than the old one. :023: .

http://www.bildon.com/pub/diff/Bildon_020.jpg

[JohnRW]

..Super high pressure is something I would only accept as an option in an AX car where you had no other legal options to tune. ...[/b]

Or, as in our case, it's a Showroom Stock car and you don't have a lot of options for tuning !

[msogren]

I checked my notebook on the Rocco with the welded front end. We put a rain setup in at Lime Rock(1997), 350 fr/ 300 rear , no sway bars(stock strap on rear bar) welded diff, and we never put back in the 500/400. That spring set went into the Golf that I have now.
The welded diff(Rocco) went from a 2:47 car to a 243:3 car at Sebring , which is still a top three time, most weekends. Best, it is killer in the rain, stops true, pulls straight and easy to turn in with the right foot on the floor and modulating the drift with left foot brake. It would be about a 2:26 or 27 car @ WGI
Much faster than a Quaife midturn out, Full power. and very neutral/ to loose on power,but never loose enough to force a lift, (which spins on turn exit, or pushes bad on entry).
Best thing about the welded is that you can "Chitwood" the Tower turn at Sebring. The car still runs and has about 2+ logbooks on it plus some 12 hrs, plus many track days, great car.
FWIW, we ran the ITB Golf with the roundy round cars tonight and had a good time. The fast cars were 17.3 and Michael was 17.6. The race cars use these huge Goodyear slicks , but stock springs. The Jetta should be close to the Golf times, on the slicks.
MM

[Bildon]

>> and modulating the drift with left foot brake.

Curious about this... I'm assuming that by saying the car is in a drift that it's at or near the limit in a 4 wheel drift but still primarily a controlled under steering condition? :eclipsee_steering:

[msogren]

The locked car increases the turn radius with power off, IE: If you are too fast and need to turn in near the trackout point, if you lift, the car goes wider, just the reverse of a normal Quaif car's turn. The left foot jabbing the brake rotates the car a bit more and makes the turn. The normal drift angle for this car was /is about 6-8in.
This i s amazing in the rain, left foot controls the rotation while the right foot controls the total arc. Fast.
Rear; About 10mm toes out each side, 2* camber , KYB ,300#
Front; 2.5 camber 10mm total toe out , Bilstein HD, 350#
Power off under steer, power on neutrl to loose
I raced for 6yrs with the stock diff (3 rear sway bars), never spinning the wheels or having the tack bounce. I discarded the welded advantage because I didnt have a traction problem.
Welded, The front end gains a lot of lateral power, car stops a lot better, goes better on two wheels, and is cheap. It is not easy to race and never gets boring. MM

[Bildon]

>> The left foot jabbing the brake rotates the car a bit more and makes the turn.

I would think that if you went in too hot and lifted, causing the welded diff to increase the tire slip at the front and therefore your radius that "Jabbing" the brakes would only load the front tires even more resulting in less grip. I can see that if you have the car rotating already a quicklift can induce more rotation due to a high rear roll stiffness and "loose" rear alignment as we've already discussed. You are one of many who have described the "juggling act" required to drive a car with a welded diff. If it suits your driving style thats good. I personally am all about "smooth" I try to move my hands and feet as little as possible.

Interesting though.

[deepgrooves74]

>> I have also driven a golf with a setup you mentioned

I didnt explain the whole set up... :) Yes, It will be very loose in the rear until warm but also you have to do a lot to the rear to stop the beam from twisting, bending, and the bushings from slopping around. If you dont it will be a mess back there. You've seen my posts here about the rear beam anti-toe linkage? That and spherical bearings and things that are also not legal in IT are required to get it "nailed" back there.

http://www.bildon.com/pub/toe_link.jpg

http://www.bildon.com/pub/Rear_Geometry_Fast_002.gif
[/b]


[color=#FF0000]What is that connected to the torsion beam in that tech drawing?? Could you explain its purpose?

cj

[Bildon]

The red area is representative of the chassis and axle mounts on an mk4.
Same thing basically as mk1, 2 & 3 with only slight changes to the mounting/bushing designs.

Here are more:
One Wheel Bump
http://www.bildon.com/pub/Rear_Geometry_Onewheelbump_.gif

Steering with minimal (or no) roll
http://www.bildon.com/pub/Rear_Beam_Steering_001.gif

[Bill Miller]

That's some cool stuff there Bill! :023:

[JamesB]

Well race report. the car Rotates so much better. With 10 race weekend old hoosiers I was able to get down to a 1:35.2 slipping and sliding on the greasy tires. The race I put on my fresh tires and turned a respectable (for me) 1:34.8. I think I could have done better in the following laps but I had an off in 10 that put me sideways on the strait and skipping (not sliding) which really messed up the left front camber (had 3 degress positive.) So I limped the rest of the race to finished at least ahead of a few others in my class and I will get the left front figured out. Its either a bent control arm or strut, I didnt really look it that much but I know something is bent.

MARRS 4 I only hope I can improve on my time, but the car felt good. The only thing I have to watch is cold mornings the car REALLY likes to rotate, but once I got used to that and got some heat into the tires before I really got up to speed it was great and MUCH faster for me.