Tow Rigs

[MikeITA240SX]

About a month ago, I was driving down I-5 in my somewhat tired, but still serviceable 1994 GMC K2500 Suburban when it went "bang" and decided not to "go" anymore. Turns out that the transfer case had failed, for the second time in about 45000 miles. So that prompted me to consider next steps and options for a heavy hauler.

In my research, I think I have discovered a "hole" in the market!

I really like the functionality of a large SUV. I need to have the ability to haul a heavy trailer (10,000 lbs.), and also haul up to 8 people. The only solutions have been the Suburban or the Excursion. Since the Excursion's last year was 2005, that left the Suburban/Yukon XL - or so I thought!

I went to the GMC web site and tried to build a Yukon XL 3/4 ton with 4WD and it doesn't appear to handle a 10,000 lbs. load anymore!

I have looked around at the SUV market, and it seems that there are no more heavy duty SUVs being made. Does anyone here know more/different?

Anybody know why Ford quit making the Excursion? What a fine machine it was! Wish I would have taken advantage of some great deals back a few years ago...

Hmm...to keep feeding the GMC as it deteriorates, or look for another newer used tow rig??

Thanks,
Mike

[JoshS]

I'm in a very similar situation and also wonder what happened to this market segment. I just replaced our 40' 2-car gooseneck trailer with a 24' enclosed trailer (probably about 7500-8000 lbs loaded). We had always used my racing partner's diesel truck to tow the gooseneck, which was great. But now that I'm on my own, I need a proper tow vehicle for this trailer. I'll be replacing my 5.4L Expedition, which has the rated capacity for this trailer but isn't really big enough to be good at it.

I like the big SUVs. My 24' trailer is only about 8K lbs. I will buy used, something from 2002-2004 or so. So the way I see it, I have three choices:
1) '02-'03 7.3L diesel Excursion
2) '03-'04 6.0L diesel Excursion
3) '02-'04 8.1L gas Suburban/Yukon XL

I love towing with diesels, and I know that if this SUV was going to be permanently attached to the trailer, it would be the only right answer. But although it won't be a daily driver, this truck will see some around-town duty. Gas is a little easier to live with.

I've been reading reviews and almost universally, the Excursion is panned for its excessive size and weight, even compared with a Suburban. So I'm sure that the Suburban is a more manageable thing when the trailer isn't hooked up.

So some days I lean towards the Excursion ... I love diesels and I've had good luck with my Fords. But I'm torn about WHICH diesel engine ... the more modern, but generally less reliable 6.0 with the nice 5-speed automatic, or the older, noisier, less powerful, but more reliable 7.3L with the 4-speed? Tough choice.

But then other days, I think about my wife driving it, and I know she'd hate driving the Expedition, especially a diesel. Besides, the Suburbans are cheaper.

I'm really torn about this. Right now I think I'll just get a big-block Suburban and be done with it. But does anyone have any words of advice? Experience towing this kind of weight with one of these big SUVs?

[JeffYoung]

Dump that 94 Burb. I had a 99. When it started to fall apart, it dropped off a cliff. I was lucky to get $4k on a trade in on a Dodge diesel.

Speaking off, consider the new Dodge diesel Megacab truck with a cap. While it obviously does not have a third row seat, the "back seat" in teh cab has more room than the second row did on my Burb. Put a cap on the short bed and you have basically a heavy duty SUV.

[Rabbit07]

I use a Chevy 1 ton Van for all my hauling. 10,000 lbs and 15 people!

[JoshS]

15 people weigh about 2250 lbs. Can the thing really tow 10K *and* 15 people without exceeding the GCWR?

[racer_tim]

Josh, how many people do you really want to be with you when your towing to the track? Since it's only my wife and I, my 1998 Dodge 2500 4x4 Turbo Diesel works just fine. I have a "Roll-n-Lock" cover over the bed, which keeps things "out of site, out of mind" and even though I only have a dual axle open trailer to tow the Wabbit, the simple tows that we do here on the left coast, Laguna Seca, Sears Point, TH, Portland, Seattle, BW, Willow Springs, I can get around 16 mpg with everything loaded.

[MikeITA240SX]

I use a Chevy 1 ton Van for all my hauling. 10,000 lbs and 15 people!
[/b]

A van would be great for me, except I haven't found one with the towing capacity that also has 4WD, which is a requirement for me for taking the family skiing and crossing the Cascades in the winter.

I have thought about the 4WD van conversions, but they are expensive, and they are "non-standard", meaning I can't just wheel in to any dealership for repairs while on the road.

If I could have a stock 4WD 1 ton van, that would be PERFECT!

[shwah]

GMC now offers the Duramax in the 2500 and 3500 cargo vans. Turning one of these into a conversion would make a sweet tow rig. Get a locker rear axle and it would be decent in foul weather as well.

[Rabbit07]

15 people weigh about 2250 lbs. Can the thing really tow 10K *and* 15 people without exceeding the GCWR?
[/b]

That was tounge and cheek :bash_1_: A Van is best if you want to haul extra people aswell as the trailer.

[JoshS]

Josh, how many people do you really want to be with you when your towing to the track? Since it's only my wife and I, my 1998 Dodge 2500 4x4 Turbo Diesel works just fine. I have a "Roll-n-Lock" cover over the bed, which keeps things "out of site, out of mind" and even though I only have a dual axle open trailer to tow the Wabbit, the simple tows that we do here on the left coast, Laguna Seca, Sears Point, TH, Portland, Seattle, BW, Willow Springs, I can get around 16 mpg with everything loaded.
[/b]
It's not that we need a 3rd row seat. It would be my wife and I, our baby, and occasionally, our dogs. Sometimes a crew member with us.

We just like SUVs better than pickups. Have more use for enclosed cargo area (dogs) than a pickup bed (even enclosed). The trailer has enough room for all of the race supplies, so it's just people stuff in the tow vehicle. Frankly, the Expedition is physically big enough for the people job, it's just not big enough to tow an 8K trailer comfortably, either in stability or in engine, despite being rated at 8650 for our 4x4.

So the big SUVs make sense. I just wish there were a Duramax Suburban.

[shwah]

What about a big block avalanche?

[ed325its]

Love that Avalanche!! :D

[handfulz28]

I've got an '01 Yukon XL 4wd with the 8.1L and 3.73 gears. It tows my 24' enclosed pretty easily and my 10k lb boat not as easily, but gets it done in fine fashion. Just about ready to show 158k miles on it.
GM stopped offering the 8.1L in the SUVs, hence the reduction in tow ratings. I heard a rumor that Ford was going to offer a "small" diesel on the Expedition; don't know if it was late '07 as '08 Model Year or in '08 as '09 MY.
It's always cheaper to repair rather than replace, so if you like the '94 get a good 4x4 shop to rebuild the t-case.
For those looking for diesels, there's always a gas-diesel conversion. Quite a few shops are offering GM SUVs (Suburban/Yuk XL/H2 Hummers) with the Duramax/Allison combo. Figure at least 10k PLUS the diesel donor PLUS the recipient. I've seen already built models go for 40-50k.

[MikeITA240SX]

Handfulz28 - that is one of the things I have thought about for when the 454 dies.

Maybe find a late model DuraMax/Allison combo that has been crunched and retrofit it into the 94 Sub. I do like the Sub. It is very comfortable and quite sturdy. But it is almost 14 years old, and I am starting to see basic components like hinges and seats failing.

One of my best buddies has a shop and just rebuilt the driver's seat frame structure (and transfer case). I have been through all of the running gear except the differentials. The transmission, power steering pump, radiator, water pump, radiator, hydro-boost, alternator, starter and a/c compressor/condenser have all been replaced in the last 5 years. Yikes! I have been spending about $2k/year on it, maybe more.

So I ask myself "when do I stop"? Well, it isn't worth much from a resale perspective - maybe $5 or $6k if I am lucky. And with a fresh engine, it will be worth what? Maybe $5 or $6k if I'm lucky! But then, what would a new or late model used replacement cost? Can't get what I want new (and if I could it would be $50k - which is a couple years racing budget). Used units set up the way I want one would be at least $30k, and 10 years from now they are worth $5 or $6k also!

So maybe I have again convinced myself to just keep the old 'Burb and keep fixing her up! I guess if the right Excursion deal comes my way, I might jump on that.....14 MPG Diesel is better than 8 MPG gasoline (towing the 24' trailer), but still would take a number of years to reach the break-even point.

So what about the differences between the larger/older and the newer/smaller PowerStrokes? I know very little about these engines, other than they seem to work very well for a very long time (based on friends' experiences).

I can't imagine why GM isn't putting a DuraMax in the Sub/YXL! CAFE or some sort of emissions limits?

[Andy Bettencourt]

How about a Quad Cab 7.3 Powerstroke? :)



http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...23&#entry110023 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10721&st=0&gopid=110023&#entry110023)

[Jeremy Billiel]

I'm in a very similar situation and also wonder what happened to this market segment. I just replaced our 40' 2-car gooseneck trailer with a 24' enclosed trailer (probably about 7500-8000 lbs loaded). We had always used my racing partner's diesel truck to tow the gooseneck, which was great. But now that I'm on my own, I need a proper tow vehicle for this trailer. I'll be replacing my 5.4L Expedition, which has the rated capacity for this trailer but isn't really big enough to be good at it.

I like the big SUVs. My 24' trailer is only about 8K lbs. I will buy used, something from 2002-2004 or so. So the way I see it, I have three choices:
1) '02-'03 7.3L diesel Excursion
2) '03-'04 6.0L diesel Excursion
3) '02-'04 8.1L gas Suburban/Yukon XL

I love towing with diesels, and I know that if this SUV was going to be permanently attached to the trailer, it would be the only right answer. But although it won't be a daily driver, this truck will see some around-town duty. Gas is a little easier to live with.

I've been reading reviews and almost universally, the Excursion is panned for its excessive size and weight, even compared with a Suburban. So I'm sure that the Suburban is a more manageable thing when the trailer isn't hooked up.

So some days I lean towards the Excursion ... I love diesels and I've had good luck with my Fords. But I'm torn about WHICH diesel engine ... the more modern, but generally less reliable 6.0 with the nice 5-speed automatic, or the older, noisier, less powerful, but more reliable 7.3L with the 4-speed? Tough choice.

But then other days, I think about my wife driving it, and I know she'd hate driving the Expedition, especially a diesel. Besides, the Suburbans are cheaper.

I'm really torn about this. Right now I think I'll just get a big-block Suburban and be done with it. But does anyone have any words of advice? Experience towing this kind of weight with one of these big SUVs?
[/b]

I researched the Ford Diesel market for many months before I bought my 06 Diesel.

The 7.3L are a VERY reliable motor and desirable, but are getting harder to find and the automatic tranny's weren't great. The new 6.0 has very good power and the tranny is great. However, I would strongly stay away from 03 and 04 6.0's as they were riddled with problems. I also am not going to put a tuner on my truck as 6.0's are notorious for stretching head bolts in stock form and is only worse with a tuner on it.

With that said, I would say that Andy's truck above is a hell of a good price and the truck is mint!

[JIgou]

Josh, I can tell you that I've towed a 24' enclosed trailer a few times with my diesel Excursion and it's done a very good job. Do note that, while rated at 11k lbs, the suspension in the Excursion is a bit softer than that from a 3/4 pickup of the same vintage - primarily a nod to the soccer moms who might end up with them. The wheelbase is also a fair bit shorter than a crew cab 3/4 ton shortbed Ford, which surprised me a bit. (Didn't realize that until I parked next to one.)

My '03 has 56k miles on it now (got it new) and I've had none of the serious problems with the engine (although I do suspect I'm beginning to have an injector leak a bit)....and I LOVE the 5-speed tranny.

It's seen a bit of around-town driving, but if it's a short trip we take something else 'cause it's just plain hard on a diesel to do short trips and not get fully warmed up.

Jarrod

[tom_sprecher]

My 2004 F-250 6.0 Diesel Crew Cab 4WD tows the 24' trailer fully loaded and you can barely tell it's back there. With the 5 speed auto in Tow/Haul mode (raises shift points and downshifts to save the brakes) it's a breeze. It's not an SUV but a pickup bed really comes in handy and I've slept in the back seat before because it's like a sofa back there. You can seat 6 but a couple of them better be chicks and not the big kind either. Seems the Fords are much bigger on the inside than the Chevys.

I had to have an EGR valve replaced but that's about it...so far at 60k miles.

The current diesel models have a 6.4 and a trailer brake controller I believe.

[DavidM]

The 7.3L are good motors, though a bit loud. Down on power a bit to the 6.0 motors, but most people add a chip/programmer without issues. My F350 is stock and it tows my 26' trailer just fine. The 4-speed transmission is kind of lame compared to the new 5 speed (and I think even 6 speed on the new ones), but it gets the job done. The tranny will be where you have issues. You can still find good used 7.3L trucks.

I'd stay away from the early 6.0L motor. They had injector issues as well as some other things. I think most of the issues were ironed out in later models. I don't think there's a whole lot of info yet on the new 6.4L motors. I personally stay away from anything new like that for a year or two till they get the bugs worked out.

www.thedieselstop.com has good info on all the Ford diesel motors.

David

[BlueStreak]

I'm using a 2002 Yukon XL, 5.3L, 3.42 gears, prodigy brake controller, and have towed up to 6k with it and been happy (not thrilled mind you, just happy - I'm thrilled with it at 4k pounds). If I were towing any more weight it would need either more gear or more motor or both.

The 2002 and 2003 3/4 ton Yukon XL/Suburban with the 8.x liter is a great value on the used market if you can find one that doesn't have a bazillion miles on it.

[MMiskoe]

I've got a 4 door 3/4 ton pick up (GM) and knowing how the SUV's get built, the back seat of my truck is no smaller than it would be if it were a Suburban. My dad has a similar truck, but a Dodge and the back seat is a tad smaller. Both are diesels and both are very comfortable and if they can't tow it, I suspect it was intended to stay put.

If you go w/ a pick up, you can get just about any combination of motor & trans that you like, same with bed length.