Racin' is Rubbing, or Is It?

[gran racing]

There's been talk about various moved professional racers have made lately, and personally have conflicting views on the subject. IMO, in club racing people should try to avoid contact as much as possible. Sure, I'd hit (I mean tap) my friends while out on the track but someone who I don't know? I personally am o.k. with the bump draft NOW but others may not be. Why I say now is because when I first started racing, I wasn't so cool with it.

At the pro level, what should the tollerance be for contact? My first few times watching British Touring Car Championship (I think that's the proper series name) I was shocked to see how much contact there was. My first thought was that I doubt I'd want to be in that series! Then I kept watching. The next race on my DVR was German something or other, and it was nice and clean racing. As the weeks progressed, I really watched out for the BTCC races and only got a few minutes into the German series. Now I'm addicted to the series and have become familiar with the drivers who run the series. It made me wonder what makes for good entertainment on the pro level even though in general I'm against contact on purpose unless deserved, which could be a thread by itself. I will also say watching some of this racing and IT videos has made me wonder if I'm not being aggressive enough. Some of my friends may think I'm nuts for saying that. :unsure:

I know, I know. The GCR does not allow for contact but it happens. So, side from that, what is the tollerance in contact within club racing? Avoid at all costs, some with friends, only in certain places.........

[JimLill]

even the greats............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0DEgwLLPXg

[Peter Olivola]

between cars on the race track.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Remember that Enduro that Dale Earnhardt Jr ran in the C5-R when it caught on fire?

http://rankinrob.typepad.com/rankinblog/images/earnhardtjunior-burning.jpg

I remember the broadcaster saying something funny but true: "You know how you can tell if the driver is the car owner? Wheather or not he looks at the car over his shoulder while walking away when it is on fire."

Most of these Pro drivers don't own the cars they are driving. The ones that do rarely run up front. Only a few drivers actually get paid to race, some get free rides and a few foot the bill themselves. The first two categories are the guys who can REALLY drive and WILL.

It's about the culture of the racing organization. The higher you go, the more contact because the stakes are higher. I think JPM's 'pass' was TOTAL BS and should have been fined internally from his team. The P-Car/Ferrari stuff is typical to most Pro events. You know how we all say BTCC is/was some of the best racing on TV? You think it would be without the contact? I like to watch it but don't consider either of those wins to be 'wins'. YMMV.

[BMW RACER]

Hey, back in the good old days when I ran pro stuff for Mitsubishi I remember the team owner telling me "If you have to bump someone out of the way to gain a place do it, we've got plenty of fenders" My proudest moment: Punting George Follmer (It's not like he hasn't punted anyone in his career) And then going up to him afterwards and saying "Gee, George I'm real sorry about that, I didn't mean to do that" to which he responded something about "paybacks being a bitch" Not sure what that meant.

Nowadays in the autumn of my racing career ;-) Racing my own car in club racing I make every effort not to make contact. It costs me money to fix my car and I do genuinly feel bad if I damage someone elses car.

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN!

[dj10]

We (Marines) had a saying in Vietnam, "Payback is a MEDIVAC"

I would warn people that cars can be deadly weapons, just like M16's.

If anyone reads Randy Probst's articles, I'm sure you will agree if you are a good driver there is no need for this kind of BS on the track. But what goes around comes around.

[zracre]

Using the last lap pass at Sebring as an example, thats Pro racing. That pass was for all the marbles at the 12 hour. There was alot more on the line than a piece of wood and an ego. Any one of those racers would have done the same thing. Passes like that are also good for the network. If Bergmeister wanted it he could have turned right and spun Melo in to the wall. After how hard he roughed Berg up I was expecting it. I guess the point is if you can't afford to ball it up then don't. If someone balls it up for you it sucks but thats racing (I guess you could take the guy who wrecks you off track property and turn his face into hamburger though :P )

[charrbq]

Ouch! Where did that last parenthetical sentence come from? Off the track hamburger?!

[dj10]

If Bergmeister wanted it he could have turned right and spun Melo in to the wall. After how hard he roughed Berg up I was expecting it. [/b]



Like Joey Hand's crash last year and this one. What would happen if they or Berg did turn him into the wall and after the crash the guy could never have walked again or had to eat through a straw for the rest of his life. Are any of you ready to live with something like this, and for how much money would it take for you to sleep well at night after turning someones spine into a pretzel? Something to ponder.

[zchris]

There was a video on this site not to long ago. It was an IT? at Watkins Glen smash festing his way thru the field. He had had a bad qualifier or something. I was amazed at how most all responses were applauding this anything but clean performance. That idiot hit everthing but the lottery. And some poeple he hit more than once. This is club racing. All we win is a trophy. Less than 1% of you will go on to a higher form of racing. There is no need to chance wrecking other poeples cars for what could have turned deadly. I have been less than impressed with the tactics of many IT racers in recent years. You want to impress your fellow racers, make the pass without contact. A front straight multi car crash at NHIS comes to mind. Many poeple do not race every year because there car got wrecked by some knucklehead making a low percentage pass attempt. Or someone trying to win the race in the first lap. And get out of the Nascar, hit thy neighbor, mentality. Nobodys going to pay you and your fellow racer to repair the cars you destroyed in your fit of ego. I'll get off my soapbox now.
Chris Howard

[charrbq]

Until I took the time to watch the YouTube video of Senna/Prost at Suzuka, many years ago, I'd forgot about the stupidity of that and the following year's incidents. Oddly, Senna was trying to win a race and a championship, whereas Prost was trying to keep Senna from taking it away from him. The mess was at least low speed. The following year the shoe was on the other foot in the same turn when Senna slammed Prost in excess of 100mph in the same turn. He even had the stones to later admit that he did it on purpose.

Interestingly, Senna is now known as one of the greatest racing car drivers ever, and Prost, in spite of all his racing accomplishments, is remembered as a whiner and a cry baby.

[gran racing]

Sure, I'd hit (I mean tap) my friends while out on the track but someone who I don't know? I personally am o.k. with the bump draft NOW but others may not be. [/b]

I should clarify this a bit. I have yet to intentionally hit anyone on purpose including bump drafting with a friend. If I knew the other driver I can't say that I definately wouldn't bump him or her on a long straight. I also recognize the associated dangers with people bump drafting in the wrong places and thus do not think it should be condoned in club racing. I recognize that may some what contridict my previous statement about bumping a friend. I can say that I would not (club racing or pro racing) ever punt someone on purpose. At the same time, I wouldn't be intimidated by someone using dumb tactics.

[bldn10]

I think Evan's take on it is correct and perhaps even appropriate for pro racing where entertainment value is a factor to the sanctioning body. But the reason the contact occurs is because the sanctioning body allows it; if they wanted to put a stop to it, they could.

In answer to the question how much, if any, contact should be allowed in road racing generally, here is what I think. First of all, what mechanical and driving attributes do we want to be rewarded in racing? Don't we want the team who has built and set up the fastest car w/i the rules to prevail? Likewise, don't we want the driver to win who is best at the various skills necessary to drive a car to the limit, negotiate traffic, preserve tires, etc., along w/ a healthy set of balls? I suggest so. Therefore the driver-car combo that got the better run off the last corner, had the better speed down the straight, took the best line, braked later, carried most speed through the corner, etc. should be and deserves to be the one who exits first. The guy behind him who did not do as good a job, but who blows up the inside w/ the intention of using the first guy as cushion to keep him from overshooting corner, who bangs into him side to side, stays in the throttle, and bulls his way in front of the first guy does not deserve to win because he got out front not by displaying the skills road racing is supposed to honor but by balls only. So, in theory, I say any contact that tends to encourage sheer aggression at the expense of driving talent should not be allowed. E.g. if Driver 1 did all the things to put his car in front in the final corner, and Driver 2 did not, and the only way Driver 2 could get past was by hitting Driver 1, Driver 2 should be sanctioned by giving Driver 1 the win. I suppose this would be a purist point of view. Probably anachronistic too.

Finally, I am of the oft-stated opinion that our rules of the road are insufficient and lead too often to inconsistent interpretations by stewards, the COA, and drivers. Sure, we are supposed to try to avoid contact but sometimes a Driver 2 like above puts a Driver 1 in the position of being the last one w/ the ability to avoid contact, and Driver 1 gets penalized for not doing it. Or does so but is penalized by losing the race. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think we need some clarity re who "has" the corner in various routine circumstances. Someone mentioned Randy Pobst's articles, that I think are almost always right on the mark and articulate what most of us think the rules of the road are. You would also logically think that you should heed what he says because, after all, he is writing in the official SCCA publication. However, I have corresponded w/ Randy and he told me that his columns are NOT reviewed by anyone in Topeka and DO NOT have official SCCA imprimatur. Indeed, I ran some contact protest decisions by him and he disagreed w/ the actions taken.

[RSTPerformance]

Their is a difference between rubbing is racing and a hit. Rubbing is when we get a tire mark on the door or maybe get our mirror bent back, or even the occational bumpdraft. All of those things are unacceptable in our rulebook (SCCA GCR), however this stuff does happen by accident or on purpose. I highly doubt that our fellow club racers purposly put a donut on eachothers doors, but I may be wrong. When you are running that close accidents do happen, some find it acceptable, many do not. It is best if you know your competition to ensure the safest and most fun during and after the race. From a workers standpoint it is near impossible to tell if contact was made or not, and we have had lengthy discussions about workers and stewards being more proactive. TV replays certainly makes it easier for us at home to make a judgement on fault.

A hit (especialy one that takes someone out of the race) on the other hand is unacceptable in anybook IMO. The tough part comes when a unintentional rub takes out a tire and puts someone out of the race :blink:

The other part in club racing is any hit that makes significant damage is costly and may take someone out for a year or more simply due to finances.

Raymond " :birra: Cheers to clean driving" Blethen

[gsbaker]

It's about the culture of the racing organization.[/b]
That's the bottom line. It becomes a matter of what is allowed and expected. There are certain oval track series in England where drivers are expected to punt the opposition off the track. No one bothers with set up; they just get bigger bumpers.

[Spinnetti]

Their is a difference between rubbing is racing and a hit. Rubbing is when we get a tire mark on the door or maybe get our mirror bent back, or even the occational bumpdraft. All of those things are unacceptable in our rulebook (SCCA GCR), however this stuff does happen by accident or on purpose. I highly doubt that our fellow club racers purposly put a donut on eachothers doors, but I may be wrong. When you are running that close accidents do happen, some find it acceptable, many do not. It is best if you know your competition to ensure the safest and most fun during and after the race. From a workers standpoint it is near impossible to tell if contact was made or not, and we have had lengthy discussions about workers and stewards being more proactive. TV replays certainly makes it easier for us at home to make a judgement on fault.

A hit (especialy one that takes someone out of the race) on the other hand is unacceptable in anybook IMO. The tough part comes when a unintentional rub takes out a tire and puts someone out of the race :blink:

The other part in club racing is any hit that makes significant damage is costly and may take someone out for a year or more simply due to finances.

Raymond " :birra: Cheers to clean driving" Blethen
[/b]

Huzzah! I agree totally.
We are NOT pros. Pros get PAID and don't do their own bodywork and paint.
If I didn't have to care about my car, I'd be up for that kind of driving too, but I LIKE my car, and have a budget!

I race becasue its where I can exercise the car that I enjoy driving so much; Its not supposed to be a demolition derby! (some of the videos I see on the web from out east are just nuts - I'd never want to race with those guys).

Here's me after Mike Wiggens was done smashing his way into me and Chuck (forget his last name) back in 93' You can see where the first of many hits was just ahead of the left rear wheel - that was no tap. That didn't wreck me; he had to hit me a couple more times first - I still wish I could return the favor.

[charrbq]

Cheez, that was a nice looking car. I would think such a manuever would be grounds to open up a 303 can of whoopass on the guy and do like Evan wrote.

[CaptainWho]

... he had to hit me a couple more times first ...
[/b]

Is that an ex-Long Beach Celebrity Challenge, ex-Fast Lane Celica?

[NutDriverRighty]

Here's my $0.02 worth on the BTCC's prodigious propensity for punting......The majority of these cars are FWD and can be much more easily "saved" from a 15 degree, 30 degree, or even 45 degree slide than a RWD car. When is the last time that you saw a RWD car finish in the top half of a BTCC field? "Catch-ability" of the car, IMHO, is a major factor in their ability to punt at will (seemingly) and the sanctioning body's tolerance for same. If the majority of the front runners were RWD cars, I believe that the number of people in gravel traps and bouncing off of walls would go pu significantly. Having your "money men" DNF every third race due to rough driving would not be good for the ratings. I think the fans are awed by the driver's ability to save what seems to be an "un-savable" car so many times without wrecking (even though it is easier in a FWD than a RWD). Just my opinion.

Scott "Righty" Franklin
www.NutDriver.org

[Spinnetti]

Is that an ex-Long Beach Celebrity Challenge, ex-Fast Lane Celica?
[/b]


This is the Ex-Celeb, then Ex-TRD, then Ex-Nick Craw/Bob Anderson Corolla.
The good news (if there was any in this) is that I built a near identical car with the good bits, and did it all myself, and was a bunch faster! :)

[CaptainWho]

This is the Ex-Celeb, then Ex-TRD, then Ex-Nick Craw/Bob Anderson Corolla.
The good news (if there was any in this) is that I built a near identical car with the good bits, and did it all myself, and was a bunch faster! :)
[/b]

That's cool! I was curious because we had a '90 Celica GTS that came a similar route. http://NutDriver.org/Celica.shtml.

[Spinnetti]

That's cool! I was curious because we had a '90 Celica GTS that came a similar route. http://NutDriver.org/Celica.shtml.
[/b]


Funny.. Thats where I the graphics idea from; look familiar? :)

This car was a TRD show car and is the one that used to be the one shown in the old TRD catalog for all the Corolla parts (and has ALL of the TRD stuff, from bushings,shift knob,springs,shocks, seat, steering wheel etc).

I orginally bought it in about the condition in the picture (not quite that bad, but almost).
I put a whole new front except the right tower on, fixed it up and ran until Mike totalled me. Then I got another tub, and did it again! Its in the garage now getting a new rear main and a fresh coat of paint. After that, cage updates and away we go (maybe next year at this point)

The guy behind me in this pic punted me off track too, nearly totalling me (totally unapologetically I might add).. Still wondering if its all worth it or not, but I sure do love to drive the car... Maybe a 20v VVTi engine and trackdays is where I should go with it?