My first driver's school

[steve b]

I bought an ITA car last fall and I'll be taking my first driver's school at Summit Point in 2 weeks. I was wondering if anyone else here will be at the school and also wondering if anyone can offer any advice.

[JeffYoung]

Myself and Ron Earp will be there crewing for Jeff Roussell in an ITS car (silver 260z). Find us, paddock near us and we will be more than happy to help out.

Advice:

1. Drive just fast enough not to get noticed, and just slow enough not to get noticed.

2. Have car prepped totally for reliability.

3. Shift 1k below redline.

4. Have crew, or someone to help you (and you do, us).

5. Try to relax.

6. Start hydrating early in the a.m.

7. Sleep lots.

8. Don't plan on doing much the Monday after school.

[steve b]

lol... that's about what most people have been telling me...."go slow, but not too slow".

I think I can handle all of your list except getting sleep. There is NO WAY I'll get any sleep Friday night.

[NutDriverRighty]

The only things that I would add to Jeff's list is to be sure to bring a set of rain tires (of 18 sessions in my school at Savannah, IIRC more than 12 were in the rain) and bring some spare dry tires. It would really suck to have to the tires you got with the car last year start throwing their tread or cording. (been there, done that!)

Scott "Righty" Franklin
www.NutDriver.org

IT7 and a flaming[i] SPU Baby Grand

[JimLill]

What kind of car did you get? What tires will you have with you?

What Motosports or HPDE have you done before?

[spnkzss]

I bought an ITA car last fall and I'll be taking my first driver's school at Summit Point in 2 weeks. I was wondering if anyone else here will be at the school and also wondering if anyone can offer any advice.
[/b]

Make sure you have crew. I do not know how people do a school without crew. Do not plan on touching the car at all. You job is to get up in the morning, get some food, go to class, get in car, go to class, get in car, rinse and repeat. You will not have time to even set tire pressures.

Drink lots of water and make sure you go to the bathroom BEFORE you get in the car in case you get into a "fascinating" experience.

Don't plan on drinking too much Friday or Saturday night. You will be well wiped Saturday and Sunday night. Take 2 Tylenol or Advil or whatever Saturday and Sunday night. You are going to use muscles you are not used to using.

Have fun. I always wanted to take a year off of racing so I could go back to school. You get lots of track time for a reasonable price.

Good luck.

[steve b]

The car is an 85 MR2 with a set of Hoosiers that still have about half the rubber (no idea about heat cycles). I have a new set of hoosiers and a set of hoosier dirts for rain (about 2 years old).

I have about 30 track days (all but 2 at the summit point tracks). I ran a street 93 MR2 for those. I have one track day in the ITA car but it was on the Shenandoah circuit.

[JamesB]

Make sure you have crew, water, and some food if you dont want to eat at summit. I had zero time till lunch to even think about the car, much less when something didnt feel right mid day through the first day.

Don't worry about sleep, once your done with the classroom Friday night you will get to sleep pretty easilly. Plan on being asleep shortly after dinner on Saturday (I was out cold by 9pm at both of my schools.)

[CDS]

Having just done my schools last year, I will echo what everyone else has said: Crew is essential. One thing that is easy to forget is to refuel the car. You will be doing a lot of laps, and it's awfully embarrasing to run out of fuel during a session. :P

[grendel]

Having just finished my first school in Feb. and my first race this past weekend, I can tell you this: Be aware of your surroundings. Safety should be your top priority, but looking should be close to it. Watch other cars around you, watch stuff happening way out in front of you, but most of all don't miss flags. I spent my first sessions learning flag stations and it rewarded me throughout the weekend. Once you have grips on whats going on around you, you can start working on going fast.

[RSTPerformance]

If you have a "To Do" list for "school day" don't plan on having the time to do it... Find someone else to do it or get it done in advance... even if it is as simple as figureing out how to get your darn spoiler on, fueling the car or other last minute stuff like taping the lights... Everything should be ready to go so you can just simply concentrate on driving.

you have a somewhat reliable car to start with so that is a +

Good Luck :023:

Raymond "remember this is fun... Keep it that way :) - stress is the #1 reason things stop being fun" Blethen

Edit: As metnioned above, Flags... that is probably one of the key things looked at by the stewards and instructors.

[gran racing]

In addition to what's been said thus far, I'll add another one - Pre school preperation for your racecar and yourself.

- If you haven't already, flush your brakes with new fluid.
- Might as well change the oil and check all other fluids (tranny, water for radiator, ect.)
- You're nuts if you goto a school and don't have an up-to-date log book. If you do not now, guess what you should be doing this weekend?
- Check the thickness of your car's brake pads. I made the mistake at one race and ran out of rear pad during an event.
- Read the GCR. Read it again.
- Read the school's supps if available

Stuff of items to bring:
- registration sheet
- payment for the school
- novice permit
- racecar's log book
- helmet
- driver's suit
- assortment of tools: from a jack, wrenches to windshield cleaner and paper towels.
- extra engine oil and brake fluid
- copy of the GCR

Might as well begin to put this stuff together now or at least a week before the school.

This may sound funny to some, but I put some Pepto pills in my racing suit bag in case my stomach starts feeling the nerves.

You've got a ton of HPDEs and track time, so this should be nice and easy for you. It's just another day at the track. The only difference is you'll now have fun passing people in the turns. While on track, don't let instructors intimidate you. They may get right on your butt to see how you react. You're out there to show you can handle things, if you're following them and a safe passing opportunity comes up, pass them. No matter what anyone at the track says, go at your own pace, focus on your lines and being alert where the other cars are.

You are going to have an absolute blast!! Oh, Spanky, even as a current license holder you can enter a competition school. Or better yet, if you're qualified (and have a national license, grrr - just had to add that :lol: ) look into instructing.

Looking forward to reading your post race report Steve.

[WRXRacer111]

Have a zip-up binder with all your paperwork in it, pens and a notepad. That makes your life a lot easier in terms of organization.

Have a crew member who you trust implicitly. You will jump straight out of your car, have about 10 seconds to bark instructions to your crew member, before meeting with your instructor and heading to classroom. When you leave the classroom, your crew member will probably already have the car in grid for your next track session.

Yes, you have basically NO downtime. Leave your gear in the car so you don't forget a glove/collar etc.

Make a checklist for your crew to go through between every session. Keep a bottle of water with you at all times you aren't driving. Bring snacks to munch on so you don't pass out. Some of the instructor ride-alongs are optional, I think sunday morning's is... it should be mandatory, don't miss any good time you can ride with the instructor (since you already paid for it...)

Besides that, it's a lot of fun, drive smart. I did my school last fall at Summit with DC Region, I had a great time!

[steve b]

Thanks for all the input guys. Most of the things suggested, I've already done. I'm planning on doing the rest this weekend (have a current log book and new annual tech already). But I'll be making a list from all of your input to make sure I don't forget anything.

One last question. I know lap times aren't important for this... but I worry about keeping pace with the field. I know my car is capable of 1:31s on summit main. I drove high 1:35s in my street car. I'm hoping I can run around 1:33 in the ITA car. For those of you who know summit point, what kind of lap times do you think my run group will turn at the school?

I'm not worried about where I run in the pack, I just want to be IN the pack.

[gran racing]

Forget about lap times. Quite honestly, you'll find that your lap times will drop as you begin racing (including the school). My times at HPDEs before racing and once I started racing are much different. You will also find there is a broad range of driver talent including lap times at the school and even at racing events. Seriously, you'll be fine. You have too many other things to be worried about right now. ;)

[JeffYoung]

Unless your instructor says you need to speed up, I wouldn't worry about lap times. I suspect that with your track experience you will be fine comparatively. You can always check the MARRS results for ITA lap times...but i wouldn't! Lol.....

[RacerBill]

Edit: As metnioned above, Flags... that is probably one of the key things looked at by the stewards and instructors.
[/b]

That and attitude. They will watch and grade you on how well you take the pointers your instructors and observers will give you.

Have fun. I have my certificate framed and up on my racing wall.

[spnkzss]

Oh, Spanky, even as a current license holder you can enter a competition school. Or better yet, if you're qualified (and have a national license, grrr - just had to add that :lol: ) look into instructing.

[/b]

I've been contemplating the whole instructing thing (got my national license :) ). I'm just having a hard time deciding wether to do it this year or not.(Long story).

I believe that WDCR does NOT allow you to go to school if you are a current license holder. If they did, I have a car that needs to be shaken down. :)

[JeffYoung]

Justin -- go check out www.joe-racing.com. Watch the video, there is some good video of you at the Roebling school.

Great run at Rockingham and welcome to the fold. Are you racing at VIR in May?

Jeff

[steve b]

Unless your instructor says you need to speed up, I wouldn't worry about lap times. I suspect that with your track experience you will be fine comparatively. You can always check the MARRS results for ITA lap times...but i wouldn't! Lol.....
[/b]

unfortunately, I already know the MARRS ITA lap times. (way faster than me) I was just wondering how the student times would stack up.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Great deatil-oriented suggestions. I wanted to add to the on-track stuff.

Don't try and run at 8/10ths. You will only end up at 6/10ths. Run fast but run safe. Demonstrate your ability but don't put yourself in questionable situations. You can't win a school but you sure as heck can lose one.

Most importantly, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS is what they are looking for. Can you see point-bys? Can you give point-bys? Can you run side by side? Do you get flustered when a faster car approaches? Are you predictable? Do you see (and react to) the flags? Can you make a clean pass? Do you know where other cars are on track?

As has been said - take instruction gracefully. Ask intellegent questions. Demonstrate confidence but not cockiness. Be safe and have fun!

(Edit: Student times will not stack up so don't worry about it. 3 seconds a lap difference is an absolute eternity that you will work on closing at test days and in races - all with 'race time' under your belt.

[dickita15]

Like everybody else is saying lap times are no big deal. I was mid pack in my second school. I later found out I was 10 seconds of the pace. 8 of those went away within 3 real race weekends. The final two I have been working on for the last 8 years.
Drive fast but be prudent in confrontations and you will be fine.

[joeg]

It appears you are already too concerned about track times.

PUT THOSE OUT OF YOUR HEAD.

Read the Supps. Know the Paddock speed limit.

KNOW YOUR FLAGS.

No passing under yellow; come to a safe stop when they show the Red Flag--don't slamm on the brakes.

The tricky one they are likely to pull is the White Flag. When they throw the ambulance on the track with the white flag, do not line up and follow it. Safely pass it and continue at race pace (but no passing if you are in a yellow area).

Finally--Do not crash into anyone.

Have fun.

[ggnagy]

It appears you are already too concerned about track times.

PUT THOSE OUT OF YOUR HEAD.

Read the Supps. Know the Paddock speed limit.

KNOW YOUR FLAGS.

No passing under yellow; come to a safe stop when they show the Red Flag--don't slamm on the brakes.

The tricky one they are likely to pull is the White Flag. When they throw the ambulance on the track with the white flag, do not line up and follow it. Safely pass it and continue at race pace (but no passing if you are in a yellow area).

Finally--Do not crash into anyone.

Have fun.
[/b]

Shhhhhh.. you didn't have to give out the white flag secret. Next You will be telling how many sheep are involved when the green flag with yellow and white on it is shown. :birra:


Do remember that even though they plan on testing you with all the flags sometime during the weekend, including white, black, and red, odds are good that you will see them more than once in a weekend! They can be used at any time for a real emergency. I was at one DS where a driver complained that they had "allready had" a red-black test, and then found out it was for an incident behind him.

[jjjanos]

I'm not worried about where I run in the pack, I just want to be IN the pack.[/b]

Things to remember:
1. They are grading you on whether they think they want to race with you. That means common-sense and fearing to tread where fools rush in. 4-wide passes under the bridge with 2 wheels in the dirt or dive bomb passes that get done JUST before the yellow are warning signs that you lack good judgement.

2. Lap times not so important. Demonstrating knowing the line is important. Getting quicker during the weekend if you start out slow.

3. Courtesy - use your mirrors, give points if you are slow class in the group, wave to the frozen people volunteering their time for this.

4. You will be faster during the first session on Sunday then your car will be. Last night, you got out of a car with warm brakes, warm tires, warm engine, warm track, warm everything. Summit Point on Sunday AM of a school will be cold. The car and the track are as cold as the air temp. Don't expect your car to do what it could do yesterday afternoon right from the get go.

5. Don't argue with the instructors when they say you pulled a Homer. If they mention you, you pulled a Homer. Your only answer is "I screwed up and I'll try to keep it from happening again." Arguing only makes you appear to have an attitude and wastes classroom time.

6. On Saturday afternoon, if you suddenly see corner workers rushing for a flag, you should anticipate a red or black flag VERY soon. On a red flag, DON'T creep. Bring your car to a SAFE and controlled STOP. You can see a flag station no matter where you stop and if you cannot, you will be able to tell when you are allowed to move. If you blow the red flag, see #5.

7. Both feet in.

8. You aren't drinking enough fluids.

9. To finish the school, you need to finish the school.

10. If your car is unable to complete the school, you probably can find a rental VERY easily. Note: I said easily, I did not say cheaply.

[Racerlinn]

Do remember that even though they plan on testing you with all the flags sometime during the weekend, including white, black, and red, odds are good that you will see them more than once in a weekend! [/b]

And to see the flags, you must remember where the worker stations are.
How do you remember where they are?
On every out-lap and every in-lap, wave at the corner workers as you go by. Wave vigorously, they like it! :026:
This aids in implanting in your brain where the corner stations are at, not only for catching flags but also in case you get in some trouble and need to get to a corner station quickly.
I still do this every session on track.

[lateapex911]

Student times will be ALL over the map. Just be clean, hit your marks, be consistet, don't miss a single flag, wave at the flaggers and any flag that requires your action (like a black flag) gets an acknowledgemet wave.

And, remember this: At the end of the day, your instructor will have to answer this question: "Would you race with this student?"

Make sure he says yes!

[Knestis]

...5. Don't argue with the instructors when they say you pulled a Homer. If they mention you, you pulled a Homer. Your only answer is "I screwed up and I'll try to keep it from happening again." Arguing only makes you appear to have an attitude and wastes classroom time. ...[/b]

...BUT on the other hand, if you get told something that you know - and I mean KNOW - is wrong, you might need to be able to respectfully stand up for yourself. If you get something from your instructor that just doesn't seem right, you've got the larger responsibility to find out what's up. If you have read your GCR and get a flag, official's direction, or other input that isn't consistent with what you've seen, you need to be able to question it.

You are ultimately responsible if it turns out you are incorrect but like it or not, you will likely see or hear at least ONE thing over the course of the weekend, that's out of line. It won't do you any good later in the year to say, "But they told me X at my driver's school" if in fact X is messed up. This game is about confidence in both your responsibilities AND your rights and information is power in that regard.

Finally, LISTEN TO THE LITTLE VOICE IN YOUR HEAD. If it says "uh-oh," heed the warning. There's a mighty big motivation to just "git 'er done" but if that means (for example) going out with a belt that adjusted itself too loose on the grid, STOP and rethink your priorities.

K

[Wreckerboy]

These are all excellent points - the DC Region puts on an excellent school - I did mine there, and it was well worth the extra effort to do so (I lived in Charlotte at the time). You will be in sensory overload. Slow down, calm down, and relax. Keep telling yourself this is supposed to be FUN.

Just remember:

*You really need a reliable car and a reliable crew member. You will spend all of your time either in class, driving the car, or sprinting between the two.
*No matter what, you haven't had enough fluids.
*Pay attention to yourself - you are going to be in the car a lot and you are going to be really, really tired. If you find yourself driving badly at some point, park the car before you get worse. Odds are, your instructor will be more impressed at your common sense than your ability to run an enduro.
*Bring every spare consumable for the car you think you'll need (belts, fluids, pads). Better safe than sorry.
*Situational awareness. Situational awareness! SITUATIONAL AWARENESS!!!
*This is not a race. Just like in a HPDE, you cannot "win" your school.
*Your goal is to be a sponge and absorb everything you can.

Oh yeah, have fun.

[grendel]

Justin -- go check out www.joe-racing.com. Watch the video, there is some good video of you at the Roebling school.

Great run at Rockingham and welcome to the fold. Are you racing at VIR in May?

Jeff
[/b]

Thanks Jeff, I really want to. Will have to see how the bucks fold out.

[steve b]

several of you have mentioned a "reliable crew". I have one guy.. non racer, non mechanic. He can put gas in the car and get it to the grid. (and I'm sure check air/change tires).

Is that going to cut it?

[JimLill]

several of you have mentioned a "reliable crew". I have one guy.. non racer, non mechanic. He can put gas in the car and get it to the grid. (and I'm sure check air/change tires).

Is that going to cut it?
[/b]

Be prepared to keep an eye on him........... jacking up on the gastank and things like are no good!

[gran racing]

Steve, he'll be fine. Bring somebody, anybody. It wouldn't be a bad idea to make a check list for him to review each session. Make sure you have enough gas, the windshield is reasonably clean, and tire pressures. You have a nice and reliable car. It's easy on tires, brakes, and just plain works.

One piece of advice I do not believe has been mentioned yet: take time to enjoy the moment. Yeah, you'll be running around at the school but take 30 seconds, a deep breath, and look around to see exactly what you have accomplished. Someone else mentioned that their certificate is framed. Mine is on the wall in my garage. This all means something and you will remember this for the rest of your life. It's just awesome and worth all of the hard work.

Oh, bring a camera and ask your buddy to take tons of pictures of you. Or bring a video camera. In additon to on track, have him take pics when you get out of the car for your first session. This is something you'll cherish later on.

You know now you're obligated to writing up a post school report, right?!!!

[steve b]

You know now you're obligated to writing up a post school report, right?!!!
[/b]

That was a given... I was already asked to write some pre-school write-ups.

http://www.smartracer.net/beckley/beckley_racer.htm

I want to thank everyone who has responded to this thread. I'm sure threads like this have popped up a hundred time, but all of you took the time to help out a newcomer. If any of you ever see my car at a track (pictures in the link above), top by and say hi.

[Knestis]

... non racer, non mechanic. He can put gas in the car and get it to the grid. (and I'm sure check air/change tires).

Is that going to cut it?
[/b]

If there is ANY way you can find - in advance - some experienced help, it might make the difference between a successful school and a very sucky one. It sounds like you have the car pretty well prepared but if you can behave like one of those spoiled arrive-and-drive guys, the whole weekend will be more likely to go your way.

There was a guy in my school (at the beginning of my second "racing career") who I was actually afraid was going to kill himself, simply because his car wasn't ready, he had no help, and was short both the time and expertise to deal with the problems that came up. The experts will tell you that no ONE problem causes an airplane to crash - that instead, it requires a series of cascading mishaps. That's what this guy was. He'd have a little issue, get behind the curve, rush to get in the car, go on-track in a fluster, and create bigger problems. (Lather, rinse, repeat.) He came closer to rolling a car without actually accomplishing it than anyone I've ever seen, I think...

...and the last time I saw him, he was trying to participate in a post-session debrief with our instructor while scraping grass out of a tire bead with a big screwdriver, and wondering where to find air. I think he just melted down.

K

[JeffYoung]

Steve, Ron Earp and I will be there crewing for Jeff Roussell. Silver 260Z, black Dodge Ram tow vehicle. Paddock next to us and we'll help you. I'm not sure I qualify as "experienceced help" but Ron definitely does and we will do all we can to get you through school.

My e-mail is [email protected]. Shoot me a note and we'll discuss logistics. We plan on arriving around 4 or 5 on Friday.

[gran racing]

Steve,
I was looking on your site and saw Peter and Dave Lyle's MR2s. LOL Great guys! My friend Jake Fisher (who owns the MR2 on my book's cover) and I went down to Summit for the Labor Day event for a couple of years and got the pleasure of hanging out with them (primarily Peter and his family). Once you get passed the school, contact them and tap into their MR2 knowledge. You can check out Jake's site - www.racerjake.com . I can also put you in touch with Jake if you'd like.


Oh, take Jeff up on his offer!!! (That's very cool of you Jeff.)

[steve b]

Steve,
I was looking on your site and saw Peter and Dave Lyle's MR2s. LOL Great guys! My friend Jake Fisher (who owns the MR2 on my book's cover) and I went down to Summit for the Labor Day event for a couple of years and got the pleasure of hanging out with them (primarily Peter and his family). Once you get passed the school, contact them and tap into their MR2 knowledge. You can check out Jake's site - www.racerjake.com . I can also put you in touch with Jake if you'd like.
Oh, take Jeff up on his offer!!! (That's very cool of you Jeff.)
[/b]

lol... I'd say I've already tapped into Peter's knowledge. I bought his car. I didn't keep the unmistakable paint scheme though.

[mattbatson]

not to contradict everyone else on here...just my two cents.
I went through my first school by myself, and the second one with just my wife.

Before my first school (2004 Moroso), I had just completed my car days before, having built it from the ground up. All I had was some laps around the neighborhood to see if it was going to fall apart on me.
And, it should be mentioned that I am no mechanic, in any sense of the word...

I never felt rushed, sometimes having an hour or two before having to be back out on track. I had to learn how to get buckled into the car on my own, but always made it to grid on time.

I set the tire pressures at 30 all around the night before the school, and never adjusted them afterwards. I only checked the engine oil and cleaned the windshield during the school. Nothing else.

In fact, I missed one or two outings during the weekend (only because it was so damn hot in south florida in july), and no one ever said anything to me.

It can definitely be done on your own. And you should have no problem with any help, even inexperienced help. It sounds like you have a built car from an ex-racer, so you shouldnt have much mechanical stuff to worry about. And you have more track time than I do (even now), so I wouldnt worry about your lap times.

[gran racing]

Ah, so you're the lucky one he sold it to. I would watch him clean and do what he called routine inspections to the car inbetween sessions in awe. You got yourself a nice car which was very, very well taken care of. Good find!

[JamesB]

Matt I dont know the moroso school, but I have worked and attended the WDCR school, its VERY fast paced. After debreifing and a few minutes with your instructor you where lucky if you could hit the bathroom before you had to get back into the car and get on grid.

I never felt rushed as I had a great crew that kept my car ready for each session. The only diffrence is I banned my crew from pregridding my car for me, it had a locked diff and untill they understood the limit of turning the wheel in the paddock I was not going to risk an avoidable axle failure with barely enough time to swap one out between sessions.

Have a blast, I may try to come up for a few hours if I am out west that weekend so I will come by and say hello.

[steve b]

Steve,
I was looking on your site and saw Peter and Dave Lyle's MR2s. LOL Great guys! My friend Jake Fisher (who owns the MR2 on my book's cover) and I went down to Summit for the Labor Day event for a couple of years and got the pleasure of hanging out with them (primarily Peter and his family). Once you get passed the school, contact them and tap into their MR2 knowledge. You can check out Jake's site - www.racerjake.com . I can also put you in touch with Jake if you'd like.
Oh, take Jeff up on his offer!!! (That's very cool of you Jeff.)
[/b]


I also know David Lyle.. in fact he rode up to Peter's with me two weeks ago to get the rest of the spare parts that came with the car.

I introduced myself to jake last year (Hyperfest maybe?). He was having brake issues and I don't think ever started a race. Understandably, he wasn't very talkative. You may have been the guy that was with him.

[gran racing]

That was me or one of our other friends who was also at the event. We almost had the brakes fixed in time, but were missing some parts and it was questionable. Just wasn't worth risking things when his brakes weren't working properly.

[mattbatson]

I think the schools were set up with three run groups. If your run group was the first one after class, then it could be rushed, no question.
I was always in the second group, and think I had it pretty easy.

I have always loved the first gen MR2's...had an 86 for a few years...mostly autocrossing it.

The first gen MR2 is right up there with the miata for pure handling excellence and steering communication.

I hope you can get it to be competitive in ITA. I always thought they could run with the CRX's and such...just didnt seem to be anyone out there that would develop one to the hilt.

I came THAT close to buying the FP MR2 advertised in the classifieds here recently. Perfect car for me.
Just didnt have the coin at the moment!

[steve b]

I think the schools were set up with three run groups. If your run group was the first one after class, then it could be rushed, no question.
I was always in the second group, and think I had it pretty easy.

I have always loved the first gen MR2's...had an 86 for a few years...mostly autocrossing it.

The first gen MR2 is right up there with the miata for pure handling excellence and steering communication.

I hope you can get it to be competitive in ITA. I always thought they could run with the CRX's and such...just didnt seem to be anyone out there that would develop one to the hilt.

I came THAT close to buying the FP MR2 advertised in the classifieds here recently. Perfect car for me.
Just didnt have the coin at the moment!
[/b]

With the Miatas running the way they are, I think the first gen MR2 is destined to be a mid pack car. The second gen is now in ITA also, I think it can be more competitive. If this racing thing goes okay, I have a deal to buy back my 93 from the guy I sold it to (in a few years) so I can build it for ITA.

[spnkzss]

not to contradict everyone else on here...just my two cents.
I went through my first school by myself, and the second one with just my wife.

Before my first school (2004 Moroso), I had just completed my car days before, having built it from the ground up. All I had was some laps around the neighborhood to see if it was going to fall apart on me.
And, it should be mentioned that I am no mechanic, in any sense of the word...

I never felt rushed, sometimes having an hour or two before having to be back out on track. I had to learn how to get buckled into the car on my own, but always made it to grid on time.

I set the tire pressures at 30 all around the night before the school, and never adjusted them afterwards. I only checked the engine oil and cleaned the windshield during the school. Nothing else.

In fact, I missed one or two outings during the weekend (only because it was so damn hot in south florida in july), and no one ever said anything to me.

It can definitely be done on your own. And you should have no problem with any help, even inexperienced help. It sounds like you have a built car from an ex-racer, so you shouldnt have much mechanical stuff to worry about. And you have more track time than I do (even now), so I wouldnt worry about your lap times.
[/b]


You had a much mor elaid back class then Summit offers. I went to both classes and crewed for 5 cars one year, and 2 cars 3 more years. Each of those events they were in the car for 15-20 minutes. 5 minutes between on track and class. 15-20 minutes in class. 5 minute break (if you were lucky) and back on track to repeat. Most of the time you are late if your car is not on the grid before you get out of class. You get lots of track time and such, but I think it would be impossible to do by your self without missing some sessions or class time.

[WRXRacer111]

I ran my ITA Integra in the fall school at Summit with WDCR...

Yep, definitely no time to do it alone. My crew person has done a ton of autocross, track days, mechanical work on his own track car (also a Honda), and he works on nuclear subs for a living. So he has a fair amount of mechanical aptitude, and it came in very handy to just say "you have good judgement; if you think something needs to be changed/replaced/fixed, go ahead and do it. Tell me before I drive though" That also came in handy when we needed to change the car setup around a bit to make it work in rain.

I could tell you the range of times run by the 3 ITA cars we had in the school, but that won't really help you. The times you posted before will be fine... traffic management, flags etc. are all way more important things to do well on. Your personal instructor may give you go-fast advice if he/she thinks it will be beneficial to you.

The observers give in-class feedback about which cars are doing well in what areas and which ones have room for improvement after each track session. If someone says you may have an area you can improve, don't take it personally; instead, ask them after the classroom session "Hey, I'm in car #__, you mentioned I wasn't doing ____ so well, can you explain how I can do that better?" Use ALL the instructors for info as much as you can. And oh yeah, if Chris Schanzle is your instructor, you pretty much won't be able to come up with a question that can stump him, LOL. Trust me, I came up with some very peculiar ones...

[mattbatson]

Yes, the second gen was just put into ITA...I forgot about that.

Maybe it is time to move the first gen down into B? :P

Well, it sounds like the summit school is very different from both my moroso and CMP schools.
I remember sitting around for quite some time throughout both schools...and still getting out on track about 5 times a day...

One of the reasons many need help on these weekends may be that they are in changing set-ups, or repairing, or bleeding brakes, etc...
I set the tire pressures the night before, and did absolutely nothing to the set-up. In fact, we had rain for half the moroso school, and I changed nothing. No rain tires, no pressure changes, no sway bar adjustments...nothing

I checked the oil a few times a day, and cleaned the windshield a couple of times, and kept gas in it...thats about it.

My times didnt suffer as a result of no rain set up...never had a problem keeping pace.

I guess they do things a little more laid back here in the south :birra:

I'll tell you what, they move the first gen down to B...and I'm all over it :D

[gran racing]

The car Steve has is a very well prepped car. What was just put into engine work recently, $6K? It is a great car to learn, easy on brakes and tires, but not competitive in ITA. There's been discussions on this car and fit (or not fit) into ITB.

[mattbatson]

You know, there are SO many of these first gen's out there for such little money...

I bet if they were classed competitively, they would become pretty popular.
They dont seem to be nearly as expensive as the miata's....they are very reliable (it's a toyota), mid engine RWD, phenomenal manual steering...I would imagine cages would be cheap (small interiors)...I could go on...

Out of curiosity...what kind of HP is the first gen pulling after a 6K dollar investment :114:

[steve b]

You know, there are SO many of these first gen's out there for such little money...

I bet if they were classed competitively, they would become pretty popular.
They dont seem to be nearly as expensive as the miata's....they are very reliable (it's a toyota), mid engine RWD, phenomenal manual steering...I would imagine cages would be cheap (small interiors)...I could go on...

Out of curiosity...what kind of HP is the first gen pulling after a 6K dollar investment :114:
[/b]

Do racer's really divulge info like that? :D The dyno sheet that came with the car shows 108 RWHP. I THINK the engine was rated 112 HP stock

[JeffYoung]

WOW...108??? That's FIFTY less than Greg Amy's NX2000 or a top flight 240sx.

If that is the best the car can do, it shouldn't be in A.

I do think the MkII MR2 in ITA is a GREAT car. If I didn't have 30k in my Triumph, that is probably what I would build.

[Greg Amy]

With the Miatas running the way they are, I think the first gen MR2 is destined to be a mid pack car.[/b]

1991 1.6L Miata = RWD, front-engine, 116 hp stock, 2255 ITA weight
1989 1.6L MR2 = RWD, mid-engine, 115 hp stock, 2270 ITA weight

Nearly identical gear ratios.
Nearly identical valve sizes.
Identical compression ratio.
MR2 has larger brakes.
Miata is a bit of a stroker in comparison, but the MR2 should have better top end.
Miata has a larger transmission and final drive to lug around; the MR2 has a tidy FWD package mounted right in front of the driving (rear) wheels. Thus, the MR2 should be able to put that more efficiently to the ground.

I've been personally mystified as to why the 1st-gen MR2 has not done better in ITA. My personal suspicion is the same as it was for the Nissan NX2000 5 years ago: no one's stepped up to the plate and made it happen.

Time to walk away from the on-deck circle...

(It's another one of those cars I've often threatened to prove to the naysayers that it has potential...)


The dyno sheet that came with the car shows 108 RWHP. [/b]
Without knowing more about what was invested to get there, I'd say there's a KEE-RAPLOAD more potential in that engine. Hell, *any* IT cars should get MINIMUM their rated stock horsepower at the rear wheels. Most pointy-end IT cars will get 25% *or more* improvements in crank horsepower.

Something's not right there.

[JeffYoung]

Greg, good points. The 1st Gen MR2 should be like a 90-91 Miata with better aero.

Didn't that motor get raced in Formula Atlantics? Has to be power there somewhere. Or was that the 2.0 that was in the MR2 Turbo?

[gsbaker]

Casual observation on Greg's point: I've had the opportunity to drive both the Miata and MR2 rather hard (street trim) and agree. Equally developed they should both be running up front.

[gran racing]

One item that hasn't been mentioned is if one can get to that minimum weight, which is an important factor in this all. In conversations with my friend Jake, this weight reduction change didn't sit very well with him. His reasoning was that at the previous weight, at least on paper it showed why he finished where he does. Now that the weight was reduced even further, it looks nice on paper but since he (and others) haven't been able to get close with a LEGAL car it makes his results look worse. I understand that. There are other cars like that. Take a look at the ITA RX7 and their new weight.

It's all good in theory and on paper, but if it can't become a reality it really doesn't matter.

Now the 2nd Gen MR2 is an interesting car.

[mattbatson]

Now, with the comparison to the 1.6 miata....
is the 1.6 competitive in ITA?
Is the MR2 down on torque compared to the miata (and rest of the ITA field)? We all know how important torque is....
Maybe the MR2 doesnt respond as well to the allowable IT modifications as the miata?

I thought the 1.8 miata was the one to have in ITA?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Now, with the comparison to the 1.6 miata....
is the 1.6 competitive in ITA?
Is the MR2 down on torque compared to the miata (and rest of the ITA field)? We all know how important torque is....
Maybe the MR2 doesnt respond as well to the allowable IT modifications as the miata?

I thought the 1.8 miata was the one to have in ITA? [/b]

The 1.6 Miata is rated at 116hp and 100 ftlbs. The MR2 is rated at 115hp and 110ft lbs. Interestingly the 1.8 Miata is ALSO rated at 110ft lbs.

The 1.6 Miata is competitive. It sees a lot more gains in IT trim as a % of stock hp than the 1.8 but still only manages around 100ft/lbs of wheel torque. It excells (as does the 1.8) at momentum tracks but gets really hurt at power tracks. Despite the torque advantage of the MR2, I would expect them to both be 'momentum' cars.

It has been said that the 4A-GE engines suffer from power potential. So much so that Dave's friend Jake has done nothing internally to his ITA car for fear that it is throwing money away. The engine certainly intriques many as the Toyota Atlantic series has seen as much as 240hp out of them...but obviously well outside of IT prep.

The 1.8 Miata is a great car for some tracks and a not-so-great one at others. It has not proven to be the killer everyone was worried about. SM track times clouded their judgement...and has come forward recently, some common pro motor 'tricks' have artifically inflated hp claims while not being legal in IT trim. The guys on this site that have one will tell you that power is hard to come by on the 1.8.

[mattbatson]

And with the better aero then the brick miata....it may be pretty fast I guess.
At least as fast anyways...
But, I guess the first gen is now out of the game with the second gen mr2 now in the class.

I just dont see how both of these cars can be in the same class. :bash_1_:

Give the first gen more weight and put it in ITB :eclipsee_steering:

[Andy Bettencourt]

But, I guess the first gen is now out of the game with the second gen mr2 now in the class.

I just dont see how both of these cars can be in the same class. :bash_1_:

[/b]

Why? There is an almost 300lb difference in minimum weight. It 'works' the same way a 116hp Miata is in the same class as a 140hp 240SX. Weight.

[Greg Amy]

Hard for me to say objectively, but I think I'd rather be trying to get my first-gen down to 2200-and-some-odd pounds in ITA, than fighting the torquey ITB Audi Coupe while lugging around 2500+ libros...

[gran racing]

It only works on paper.

[mattbatson]

I guess I have to wonder how accurate the formula for how much weight = how much power....

I think we underestimate how important torque/hp are in relation to weight.

It seems like in each class, the cars with more torque/hp...despite their extra weight...are faster.

In ITB it is the volvo's, for instance, which are very heavy...but man do they hustle down the track. When on track with a volvo, I am almost in disbelief that they are in the same class as me. There is absolutely nothing I will ever be able to do to my car that will enable me to even stay in the draft of one of those volvo's.

In ITS it may be the BMW's....ITA has the 240 and Nissans with their big torque/hp numbers...

Power is king. Weight seems...well, less important.

As a result, I would think the second gen MR2 would wupp up on a first gen. Despite the extra 300lbs. Much more torque and HP.

I could be wrong though :birra:

[JeffYoung]

Guys, wanted to let everyone know that Steve made it through his school with flying colors (and no help from me). Car ran great, he drove great and everything was great. Except the weather. Those guys on Saturday had the nastiest school weather (50 degrees and raining) I've seen. Carnage level was low. Lots of offs, but guys did a good job avoiding each other. Congrats to all.

[steve b]

I wouldn't say no help from you; your moral support early on was very helpful. Tell Jeff (the other Jeff) that he was very impressive showing up with no track experience and running as well as he did. I can't imagine taking a school on a strange track, let alone the first time on a track ever.

Jeff said he was already thinking about the fall school at SP. Hopefully will get to see you guys there again.

[JeffYoung]

Jeff did great, I totally agree. Way better than great actually, his race was damn good.

Your car looked really good there, through the carousel and up the hill. Impressive to watch. Jeff will I think be back in the fall, I do hope to see you guys there as well.

[jrvisual]

The rain definitely sucked.

It made for an interesting and frustrating introduction to performance driving and a tire wall. :(

Once the rain stopped the fun finally began. My biggest disappointment was after having gotten to the pole in the first practice start, I opened up a huge gap by turn one in the second start, and over cooked it and lost about 11 places by the time I got back on the track before turn three.

Had a great time battling with the RX7 and Miata for the length of the race. The Z torque won that battle as I pulled away coming out of the esses on the final lap.

[Ron Earp]

Hey Steve, it was good to meet you up there at school and you and the MR2 looked great on track! Nice job!

That was a heck of a wet Saturday and I am VERY suprised the carnage wasn't a lot higher than it was. In fact, it was extremely low, even low for a dry school.

Lots of fun to watch, maybe we'll be back up there for the second school. That is a long way for us though in NC, heck of a drive with the last hour or so on some fairly small roads.

Ron

[steve b]

Yeah I felt sorry for you guys having that long drive Sunday night. I know I was glad I didn't have that drive. I think I mentioned to you guys, I'll be down your way at VIR Labor Day weekend running an HPDE with Mazda. Here's the link in case any of you would be interested.

http://www.mazdadrivers.com/

[JamesB]

Im glad you all had a great time. I was tied up this weekend or you would have seen me somewhere on pit lane or pit out. My march comedy of errors of sorts (well funny to everyone but me) involving nearly every car I own kept me from the track.

[jcmotorsports]

Ron and Jeff
I met you guys and didn't even realize it!!!!! I was there with the two Hankook Civics. Thanks for all the help with the bolt issue on the black car. It worked enough to get Greg signed off! I didn't feel comfortable enough to put him out there in the student race and his instructor agreed, but thankfully his instructor felt he was competant enough to pass. Will (white civic(my old car)) also passed so it was a succeessful weekend for all.
John Costello

[JeffYoung]

John, no problem at all. And thanks to you for the toe plates, we were worried that the front end of the Z had been moved around.

Glad your guys made it through school. Snapping a caliper bolt is just bad luck.

Hope to see you at the track sometime.