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Kolin Aspegren
03-11-2007, 07:03 PM
At the drivers meeting at Rockingham it was anounced there would be no Ecr. Cfr region apparently
is having there own Florida Enduro Series race instead. Can somebody in the know explain how or
what happened. Looks like greed perhaps has taken over.

Kolin

HONDA69
03-11-2007, 08:32 PM
[b]E-Mail Robin Langlotz ([email protected]) and ask him why the change in the schedule :014:
Carol Cone, the ECR Administrator was unaware of the change in the schedule.

IT728
03-12-2007, 08:29 AM
I was hoping to go down and run that weekend. I'm not familiar with the Florida Enduro Series. Last minute changes are a bit unsettling. Still hope to get down there, but I do really enjoy the ECR format/points system.

ECR
03-12-2007, 09:27 PM
This event, the Daytona classic,since the era of the leather helmet,the wire wheel,and the hand-crank starter, has been an ECR.possibly the premier ECR in Florida. As a competitor and preparer who has supported this event, and series with multiple entries (and winners) for over a decade,I find it unfathomable that,without explanation,it would be summarily dropped from the schedule,especially since it is still on the calendar as of 2-15-07.All I can say is that I sincerely hope that I am misinformed,and this is only a bad dream.

Rob May
03-12-2007, 09:34 PM
Yep, heard it straight from the ECR steward in the drivers meeting. I agree with you David, it has been a staple for many years at Daytona. Premier? Yeah, I would say that.

Robin, can you enlighten us on what the deal is?

I will shoot him an e-mail ( [email protected] ) :024:

flaboy
03-13-2007, 06:03 AM
The only thing i have heard was that the double sarrc in august was cancelled do to repaving of the track after the July 4th weekend.That race has been moved to Sebring.

If thats the case about the ECR than that really sucks.That was going to be my next race,not only that it was a local race since i live 20mins away from the track

Carlos G
03-13-2007, 09:41 AM
There is still an Enduro on the schedule, just not an ECR series point race ? While I agree with my 'muy rapido' friends here on the prestige this event has gained over the years ( first ran it in '93 ), this back and forth, ECR - Citrus Endurance Challenge - Florida Endurance Series -ECR, has been going on since the begining. Remember when it was a 3 hour event one year ? Comes down to scheduling issues again with the National race program vs the ECR schedule / rules ?
Would like to hear official word from Robin and Carol.

P.S. Hey Kolin, you are the "muy rapidest" of them all :)
See ya'll in Daytona.
El otro Cubano not so muy rapido,
Carlos Gutierrez

jlinfert
03-13-2007, 02:26 PM
For those who race the ECR series the loss of the Daytona ECR does indeed suck. I have no idea why, but at least there is still an enduro being run that weekend. I know that I'll be there running my Scirocco.
I hope some of you fast B car drivers are ther for me to draft with.

charrbq
03-13-2007, 03:20 PM
Well now that's really wierd! Two years ago three years ago they cancelled the Double SARRC at Daytona and moved it to Sebring for the infield being repaved...that needs to be done again? Plus, they cancel a scheduled race for a ECR series and make it their own race. Something sounds rotten!

I suppose all this makes it easier to design my race schedule for this year. It will only take a little modifying and save me a lot of travel time and money.

GKR_17
03-20-2007, 01:02 PM
After hearing from several officials, it is still not clear why the ECR was dropped from this event. It is surely political though, since the CFR will still use the ECR rule format from what I've been told.

If it's not an ECR our team isn't going. I wonder how many other folks feel the same way. If there are enough of us, maybe they will be inclined to put it back. If you want this race to be an ECR, I'd suggest you contact the CFR registrar: [email protected]

Grafton

Mattberg
03-21-2007, 12:04 AM
Is this really surprising to anyone? Go back and read my posts of over a year ago. I said stuff like this was coming and you didn't want to hear it.

charrbq
03-21-2007, 10:28 AM
Is this really surprising to anyone? Go back and read my posts of over a year ago. I said stuff like this was coming and you didn't want to hear it.
[/b]
The only thing surprising is that it took you this long to climb your bell tower and chime in.

zracre
03-21-2007, 12:10 PM
I don't care who puts it on...its Daytona!!!! I'm there!

Carlos G
03-21-2007, 12:41 PM
I don't care who puts it on...its Daytona!!!! I'm there!
[/b]


Thats the spirit ! There's no other track like Daytona. If I only make two races this year, this one is a must.
Grafton; bring that rocketship of yours, you always run strong at Daytona. I might be in an ITS car again, would be fun drafting your red Panzer :eclipsee_steering: just like the old days.
See you all there,
Carlos Gutierrez

Kolin Aspegren
03-21-2007, 12:52 PM
Guys I will still be there myself just running the national as usaual. Carlos looking forward to seeing you
and the wife. Graftons new panzer is black and very mean. Stilled pissed about no actual Ecr though.

Lets hope the double at Homestead in June stays an Ecr, crosses fingers

see yeah

Kolin

GKR_17
03-21-2007, 01:21 PM
I'd love to be there. In fact I'd already booked plane tickets. But it just isn't worth it to us if the race doesn't count for ECR points.

As Kolin points out, the new car is black, and hopefully won't be much help for drafting ITS cars. But Carlos is typically better than most of the ITS field...

Grafton

GMIV
03-22-2007, 07:35 AM
Guys,

Just heard the news about Daytona. Last year I only ran ECR enduros and ended up winning the trophy for the Florida Enduro Series without even realizing it. There is no reason why we cannot run for both ECR and FES points in the race, unless it has to do with the prize money. We should petition Carol to let us run for points in both series that weekend. Let's have the usual huge field. See you there.

Guy Marvin
ITS 240z

GMIV
03-22-2007, 08:21 AM
Did anyone else notice that the entire ECR page on the SEDIV web site is missing?

Guy Marvin

jmark
03-22-2007, 09:32 AM
Did anyone else notice that the entire ECR page on the SEDIV web site is missing?

Guy Marvin
[/b]Sure is. The 2007 Schedule still shows some ECR events however.

http://www.sedivracing.org/2007Schedule.pdf

charrbq
03-22-2007, 10:51 AM
ECR has its own website...www.sedivecr.com. It's listed at the bottom of the SEDIV webpage.

jmark
03-22-2007, 11:24 AM
ECR has its own website...www.sedivecr.com. It's listed at the bottom of the SEDIV webpage.
[/b]Thanks Chris. The site pretty much says it all once you go to the link.....

ECR
03-22-2007, 06:16 PM
For those competitors in the northern parts of the division who can't justify the tow to Daytona if there are no ECR points(and there are many of us who wholeheartedly support your position) ,please remember that there is an event at Homestead in June. Why not save your Daytona money, and invest it coming a little further south,to a world-class facility,with the possibility of taking home DOUBLE points,since this is a DOUBLE ECR!!!! Just a thought.........

GMIV
03-22-2007, 09:13 PM
Here it is from the horse's mouth:

The change in the race format was strictly a Central Florida Region decision. I was not consulted nor was I notified. I found out because Dave Rollow is married to the person (Sharon) who maintains the SEDIV schedule. He announced it at the Rockingham ECR. Please understand that the ECR Committee is in charge of the ECR Series. I only administer the functioning of the Series.



I have spoken to Robin Langlotz (ECR Committee person). His explanation was that he feels the ECR Series is broken and needs to be fixed (?). Also, only eight ECR registrants last year were from CFR and his Region BOD could not see the benefit of having the event for eight people and they voted to not have the ECR at Daytona.



My advice is to get in touch with the region. Our rules allow regions to add the ECR to their race schedule, but the rules have no say in how the regions run their events. I am as disappointed as you are and I believe that CFR has made a poor decision. Races are put on for the drivers and only the drivers can make a difference.



Wish I could have had better news. I have forwarded this to the ECR Committee.



Carol Cone

ECR Administrator

GKR_17
03-22-2007, 10:12 PM
Also, only eight ECR registrants last year were from CFR and his Region BOD could not see the benefit of having the event for eight people and they voted to not have the ECR at Daytona.
[/b]

So they don't like to draw cars from other regions?

Message received loud and clear. I'll be racing elsewhere.

JeffYoung
03-22-2007, 11:01 PM
There is bad stuff brewing between CFR and the rest of the SEDiv. This is not a good sign.

I read the explanation and still don't get it. How would having this be an ECR in anyway impact or affect them, since the race is being run one way or the other?

What is broken about the ECR? I see huge fields at every track I go to.

jmark
03-23-2007, 06:00 AM
The ECR races I attended last year had huge fields. Why would you want to stop the growth?

flaboy
03-23-2007, 08:01 AM
I don't understand the part about the low CFR entrainants??

are they saying out of the what 70 plus cars there last year there was only 8 from the CFR??

i find that hard to believe.

Tim

GMIV
03-23-2007, 08:28 AM
I read it to mean that only 8 CFR members paid the $35 to officially participate. I wrote Carol with several suggestions, one of which was to waive the registration. I think we should have the SARRC and ECR series represent all SEDIV regional racing and integrate the enduro into the SIC. Any thoughts?

Guy

Kolin Aspegren
03-23-2007, 08:47 AM
Thank you Carol for coming on here and telling us what you know. Perhaps Robin could also
do the same.

sincerly

Kolin (who just likes to drive)

ECR
03-23-2007, 08:56 AM
Robin...any enlightenment??? Why???

GKR_17
03-23-2007, 09:29 AM
I read it to mean that only 8 CFR members paid the $35 to officially participate. I wrote Carol with several suggestions, one of which was to waive the registration. I think we should have the SARRC and ECR series represent all SEDIV regional racing and integrate the enduro into the SIC. Any thoughts?

Guy
[/b]

I'm curious how many folks previously came for the ECR, and didn't care about the CES enduro that usually runs at the same time. Those are the folks CFR is turning away. I can't speak for everyone, but the more cars the better, who cares if some are going for points in different championships?

The ECR series had planned a grand finale at Roebling two years ago. 3 hours, double points, similar to the SIC. For some reason it fell through though. The concept seems like a good idea, especially now that were only counting 6 events for points.

charrbq
03-23-2007, 10:11 AM
Somebody's telling a fib. I know of way over 8 CFR members that ran last year at Daytona, and I don't pretend to know all the membership. If they want all the winners and entrants to be from CFR, then that may be all they end up with. Track rental may be tough to make, though.

I've seen this sort of thing happen before in regions. It usually gets discovered and repaired, but not before the damage has been done.

Besides, having "only 8 CFR members" run in an event of that magnitude is a pretty stupid reason for not having it again. Sounds like no one bothered to proof read the written response to Carol's question.

flaboy
03-23-2007, 10:39 AM
I think i read it the wrong way.Maybe they were talking about sihned up for the series...not just the race.

Chris Wire
03-23-2007, 11:32 AM
I believe that the answer to your questions is politics/control/money.

Those three words will provide all the reasons you need as to why this decision may have been made.

Spite might be another, but you could just lump that in to politics.

Just my $.02.

ECR
03-23-2007, 01:35 PM
I have a question that maybe someone can either answer for me or send me in the right direction so that I can get an answer.Seeing that Daytona is an extremely attractive venue,and for that reason alone is very hard to stay away from,I would like to know more about this "enduro". If it is no longer an ECR,then what is it? Is it a stand-alone enduro? Is it part of the FES? Is CFR reviving the seemingly defunct CES? What is it?

zracre
03-23-2007, 04:49 PM
Here are the results from the big bore event last year...I am sure there are more than 8 people from CFR on this list...probably even more than 8 that post on here!

http://www.sedivracing.org/ECR/06Results/R...aytona%2006.pdf (http://www.sedivracing.org/ECR/06Results/Race2.2%20Daytona%2006.pdf)

CFRRaceBoard
03-23-2007, 06:44 PM
Concerned drivers,

There are problems within the ECR system which ultimately make the regions look bad. The host region has little input and control over how the events are scheduled and run. ECR administration offers little to no support and turns around and criticizes the host regions, post event. CFR has chosen not to participate in this series, with its’ Daytona event and might not conduct further ECRs until the deficiencies are corrected or, at least, addressed.

CFR’s ECR rep (me) brought the problems to the attention of the ECR Committee in January. The remaining members of the Committee chose not to address those issues.

In a conversation with Carol Cone, I stated that only about 8 members of CFR participated as a registered entrant of the ECR series in 2006. In fact, per the final ECR points for 2006, ECR events throughout the division drew over 420 drivers. Of that 420, only 48 (11.5%) were actually registered entrants eligible to accumulate ECR points. Of the 48, only 5 were shown as members of CFR and 4 were members of Florida Region. Point being, if the ECR program was so great and not broken, why then are so few drivers joining the series. Why should the region and drivers continue to participate and support the program financially when there is minimal driver interest in the series, as a series, and just serves to make the regions look bad.

The Daytona event will consist of two 90 minute enduro groups. The formal rules will be posted to the DLB registration site by the end of this month. The basic format of the event remains very similar to that of the ECR series. If only a few cars show in each group, then we’ll combine them into one and have oh, maybe a three hour enduro…. perhaps........

Robin Langlotz
CFR Race Board Chair

ECR
03-24-2007, 04:32 PM
Robin ; Thank you for taking the time to respond.I,however have some issues with the responses herein. As a longtime IT competitor,I have had the priviledge to participate in a great many ECR races,both in and out of your region.Now,being just a racer,I don't profess to know all of the political ins and outs of what it takes to put on an event,and I realize that EVERYONE involved is a volunteer,but ,in my simple mind,I cannot see how,as if you say the series is"broken",it can be "fixed" by alienating a dedicated group of traveling racers. I believe I speak for the vast majority of enduro racers, and more than the majority of the ECR racers, when I ask you to please reconsider your decision and re-establish the Daytona Classic as an ECR event. Sincerely, David Leira

charrbq
03-25-2007, 08:09 AM
Oh well, it's your ball field, so you can opt to use your own ball to play with. This is the same reasoning that Tony George used, and the whole sport still suffers.

Mattberg
03-25-2007, 11:19 AM
Oh well, it's your ball field, so you can opt to use your own ball to play with. This is the same reasoning that Tony George used, and the whole sport still suffers.
[/b]

NO. THat's not the way it went. Barry Hair and Martin Bartlett played the role of TOny George here coveting the votes of non-racing regions in order to get their way and "socialize" SEDIV racing. Not strong enough to do it on their own they cozied up to the little regions that have like two participants but one FULL vote and then strong armed Florida... or at least tried to. Now they'll end up with exactly that. Little tiny regions with no racers or workers. I suggest you get Barry Hair out there on a corner every weekend.

I told you two years ago what was going on and you didn't want to hear it. Now that Barry and Martin have ruined your racing and done EXACTLY what I said they were trying to do then, you want to blame Florida? Nice try. Tell it to the 74 other racers that show up for the lousy races you'll NOT be having when they cancel them due to lack of workers. You can thank Barry Hair for all of it.

GO FLORIDA! B)

Capt.John
03-25-2007, 01:09 PM
To clear up a few misconeptions about the FES and CES endurance series. The CES, Citrus Endurance Series, was started by Bill Weston when he was the RE of the FL. Region. It combined any of the Endurance races held by the Central Fl. Region (CFR) and The FL. Region into a stand alone series with end of the year Champions etc. The actual races were run at the same time an ECR was run. in either of the Regions. The idea was that those who didn't wish to participate in all the ECR series races and tow to all of the many tracks in the SEDIV would have a mini-series to participate in. Thus it was possible to get points in both ECR(if registered) and the CES at the same time. It was also possible to get CES points for Endros run by the Regions that were not ECR'S. The CES,....joint CFR FL.Region venture.... was disbanded after two years and the FL.Region established the FL. Endurances Series...FES... This Series was to be run at ECR'S and Fl. Region Enduros at Moroso and Homestead conducted by the Fl. Region. The FES rules are the same as the ECR rules with one or two slight differences that are covered in the Supps. This series continues to run in 2007 in the FL. Region.

The Fl. Region event at Homestead,in June, will be a DOUBLE ECR as well as a Double FES....same Bat Time, same Bat Channel. Those of you who are running for ECR points might want to give this event some thought. The cancelled ECR at Daytona will be for whatever series points they plan to establish for their races. There has been no talk of reinstituting the joint CES Series at this time. Since this is a CFR event, no FES points are at stake or will be awarded. I hope this answers a few questions and clears up some mis- information.


Capt. John

charrbq
03-25-2007, 04:01 PM
Matt! How's the view from the bell tower? I'm not sure why you have such a woody for Barry Hair, even though you seem to have a fist full of excuses, but it sure does eat at you. Have you seen a professional about this?

Mattberg
03-25-2007, 04:49 PM
Matt! How's the view from the bell tower? I'm not sure why you have such a woody for Barry Hair, even though you seem to have a fist full of excuses, but it sure does eat at you. Have you seen a professional about this?
[/b]


I was right and you were wrong. Pretty simple. In the process you destroyed SEDIV racing. Nice job.

HONDA69
03-25-2007, 09:47 PM
my Fellow ECR Racers:
Carol stated what happened and Robin Langlotz states that the series is broken?? How, why? Low participation count for the whole series by SEDIV Racers, so -- It's CFR'S Race and they want to set the rules!! As my co-driver and I are looking for opportunities to gather ECR Points we will not attend unless Daytona is an ECR. Track is fun to drive, but, I cannot justify the travel and time off without the opportunity to earn a few ECR Points.
As for Robin Langlotz's answer - evasive?? non specific and complaining that the ECR Series team runs the RACE - the last is very true, was agreed on by ECR Committee members and requested by drivers for consistancy within SEDIV for all races. Note: we have had ECR Series Stewards to run the ECR'S for the past 15 years and suddenly CFR is unhappy with the SERIES, and the lack of local control of the RACE??
I say it's time the ECR Series Drivers' vote with their WALLETS and boycott the non-ECR at Daytona.
then again i'm probably :dead_horse:

HONDA 69
2004, 2005 and 2006 ITC ECR Champion
85 Honda Civic DX

GMIV
03-26-2007, 08:02 AM
Does anyone know exactly what is broken with the ECR? If I understand what is being said, the FES is for the folks who do not intend to run enough ECR events and thus will be unlikely to pay the whopping $35 to register. So what there are still those of us who are more serious and pony up the money to qualify for the prize money and want to earn points whenever possible. Why don't we eliminate the $35 fee add $10 to the entry fee and everyone gets points? As I see it, we are there paying entries, buying fuel and tires and there is no reason not to score us in the ECR and FES. Reinstate the points! We could always just score them ourselves.

charrbq
03-26-2007, 08:20 AM
I was right and you were wrong. Pretty simple. In the process you destroyed SEDIV racing. Nice job.
[/b]
Matt, how can you explain that? You being right is only a conjecture on your part, as is me being wrong. I would appreciate some examples of how I destroyed SEDIV racing. That's a pretty tall task from someone who lives in Baton Rouge and only belongs to CFR as do many others. If I destroyed SEDIV racing, as you wrote, then I should be proud of my abilities as I've been able to accomplish, for whatever end, something far greater than you've ever been able to do to Barry Hair or anyone else in SEDIV. I thought your secondary goal was to get Florida to secede from the rest of SEDIV, but that's now a waste of time as I've, according to you, destroyed SEDIV racing. You now have nothing to rescue. You must feel very hollow.

I suppose in your idle time, you'll have to start a campaign against me just as you did Barry. I'll be in good company. After all, he's an R. E. of a racing region, and I'm just a guy that races, belongs to CFR in the SCCA, and has computer access...as do you. We must be more alike than I thought, except that I take my medication, and you must not.

Have you seen a professional about this obsession you have with poor Barry...and now me?

RX3
03-26-2007, 03:50 PM
Here is list of the people that are running ECR this year.
There are a lots of people posting whos name is not on this list!!!!!!!!!!
So are you running ECR or are you just wanting to run an enuduro?


Class Last First '07ECR. Log Book .
ITA Winchester William 7692 83-1692
ITA Douglas Matthew 7030 5-125
ITC White David 7032 03-1633
iTC Sessions Jason 7016 83-1588
ITC Sessions Patrick 7017 83-1708
ITR Boatwright Russell 7019 03-1258
ITS Kent Danielle 7075 03-1591
ITS Bennett Gary 7003 13-726
SM McAdams Michael 7681 83-1466
SM Vicini Donald 7649 83-1378
SM Leonard Joe 7082 007-970
SM Phee Willie 7077 03-1573
SM Long Glenn 7085 42-2337
SM Robertson Taylor 7047 03-1632
SM Harriman Alan 7007 34-571
SSC Robertson Ben 7046 03-1494

Chris Wire
03-26-2007, 04:05 PM
Here is list of the people that are running ECR this year.
There are a lots of people posting whos name is not on this list!!!!!!!!!!
So are you running ECR or are you just wanting to run an enuduro?
[/b]

Good point.

I like to run the enduros whenever I can, but I do so because I love the format, not because it's an ECR, CES, etc. Based on the size of the list compared to the size of the grids, I'm not the only one.

GKR_17
03-26-2007, 04:31 PM
Here is list of the people that are running ECR this year.
There are a lots of people posting whos name is not on this list!!!!!!!!!!
So are you running ECR or are you just wanting to run an enuduro?
Class Last First '07ECR. Log Book .
ITA Winchester William 7692 83-1692
ITA Douglas Matthew 7030 5-125
ITC White David 7032 03-1633
iTC Sessions Jason 7016 83-1588
ITC Sessions Patrick 7017 83-1708
ITR Boatwright Russell 7019 03-1258
ITS Kent Danielle 7075 03-1591
ITS Bennett Gary 7003 13-726
SM McAdams Michael 7681 83-1466
SM Vicini Donald 7649 83-1378
SM Leonard Joe 7082 007-970
SM Phee Willie 7077 03-1573
SM Long Glenn 7085 42-2337
SM Robertson Taylor 7047 03-1632
SM Harriman Alan 7007 34-571
SSC Robertson Ben 7046 03-1494
[/b]

You must have a line off on your data, the classes don't seem to match the drivers.

Taylor Robertson is runing ITR in the ECR series. Ben Robertson is running SM in the ECR series. Neither will be at Daytona if it's not an ECR.

Grafton Robertson

pblracing
03-26-2007, 04:39 PM
Is there something wrong with the SARRC series because only a small percentage of participants actually go to the SIC? I don't think there is. It is just an indicator that some people race for fun, some people race for championship and some people won't bother once they know they can't win.

Is there something wrong with the ECR because only a small percentage of particpants actually pay the fee to run for the championship. I don't think there is. It is just an indicator that some people race for fun.........(etc..)

I would bet that if the SARRC charged a fee in order to participate for the championship but the fee wasn't mandatory in order to be in the races, you would see the same lack of payment as there is with the ECR.

RX3
03-26-2007, 06:46 PM
Grafton Robertson

If my Info is wrong this where it came from may be that is part of your problem. Bad info[u]


http://www.sedivecr.com/

GKR_17
03-29-2007, 01:39 PM
If my Info is wrong this where it came from may be that is part of your problem. Bad info[u]
http://www.sedivecr.com/
[/b]

My problem is no ECR at Daytona, it would be great if that was bad info.

Kolin Aspegren
03-29-2007, 01:40 PM
What about having a town hall meeting at the track ala runoffs style. Everyone could air out there
differences and maybe solve this obvious communication problem between the groups. Is something
that could be done without too much planning. Would the track let us use a room for an hour. Any
support or answers for this would be nice.

Robin thanks for posting.

I'll be at the St. Pete grand prix this weekend with a beer in one hand, girl on another. Hope to
bump in to some of my friends.

Kolin

GKR_17
03-29-2007, 06:03 PM
What about having a town hall meeting at the track ala runoffs style... [/b]

That's good in theory, but if those who want it to be an ECR don't show up for the race, then they won't be heard at this meeting. Enough lost entries ($$$) and maybe CFR will listen.

JeffYoung
03-29-2007, 06:22 PM
This whole thing just makes no sense to me. CFR is pulling the ECR sanction because a lot of people who actually run ECR just don't sign up for the points?

ECR
03-29-2007, 06:53 PM
GKR,Chris Wire,charrbq,and all concerned,I am with you.RX3,the info you present about entrants,althogh accurate,is not a true representation of the ECR entrant/series supporter/CLIENT. I say this because,as stipulated in ECR rules we have until before our third event to register with the series. I believe that,if you wanted a more realistic accounting of the ECR members that have supported CFR over the years you should pull historical data to see the people that have been supportive over 3,5,or more seasons. I believe that the real reason for the exclusion of the ECR from this event is that there seems to be a powerplay within CFR against the ECR,and ultimately against ECR competitor-clients. If the series is broken,please explain how can alienating it fix it? If the series makes the host region look bad post-event,why only CFR.not the other hosting regions? I can only say this. As an entrant-preparer,I hold 8 entries. My clients have decided,as have I,that if we cannot garner ECR points,we will not be attending this event. Yr Fthfl Servant David Leira

Kolin Aspegren
03-29-2007, 07:22 PM
David et all just so its perfectly clear. The enduro team that I drive for will not be entered either
since there is no Ecr. I will still be at Daytona running the national.

We are running the double at homestead, car being towed all the way from washington d.c.

Kolin

its66
03-29-2007, 10:29 PM
I would bet there are several power plays/struggles going on. This could be an effect of another one which was "hinted" about in CFR's monthly publication for Mar '07...and also very subtly mentioned by Mattberg a long time ago... ;)

"The race realignment proposal was
suggested in the 3rd quarter 2006, and
the copy I have came to me from a
member in the Buccaneer Region, which
is in area 12.
Each of the 8 racing regions in SEDiv
would get 4 events.
1 National
1 SARRC
1 Drivers School
1 Regional weekend.
The remaining race dates would be
decided by a lottery drawing with
overworked workers and families in mind
and attention should be given to NO
racing around the year end holidays.......(edit)"

It appears that losing an ECR date may be only the beginning of major changes in the race schedule within the state of Florida. Will the Turkey Trot go away completely? Labor Day ECR??? Is that next?

I'm not trying to be an alarmist. I just wonder how much, if anything is being left out of these stories.

Hammer
03-29-2007, 10:37 PM
The primary difference between the SAARC Series and the ECR is that the ECR pays out prize money at the end of the year. The host region for an ECR race pays $30 per ECR series entrant and $25 per non ECR entrants to the ECR series. The host region of a SAARC race pays $4 per entrant. Last year, the two CFR ECR events had approximately 440 entrants, which using $25 per entrant, comes to $11,000 that CFR paid to ECR. One can argue whether this money would be better spent within the CFR budget given the low number of CFR members that enter the ECR series. The flip side of the arguement is that that CFR may have a lower number of entrants if the enduros are not ECR events and take in a lower amount of entry fees. We will have to wait and see if the number of entries from last year's enduro at Daytona are higher or lower than last years.

One complaint against the ECR series is the amount of time it takes for the race results to be finalized. The host region takes most of the heat from racers when results are not posted in a timely manner and timing protests can not be filed until the results are official.

Mattberg
03-29-2007, 10:47 PM
"It really isn't happening... It really isn't happening!" Yea, right.

Go see Barry Hair and Martin Bartlett. You ignored the obvious and allowed road racing to be used as a tool to support solo and little man egos. Good luck to you all. I feel bad for the racers but also have to scold those racers that supported officials blindly even after they were caught in lies. You don't deserve what's coming, but then again, you had your chance to stop it and you had the facts which I delivered. You chose to believe the liars and rationalize their actions. :018:

You know what happens to Lemmings. :018:

sgallimo
03-30-2007, 12:52 PM
...snip ...It appears that losing an ECR date may be only the beginning of major changes in the race schedule within the state of Florida ...snip ....
[/b]

Just remember that CFR did not "lose" the ECR date. CFR Board of Directors "chose" to give it up. No one, Barry Hair, Martin Bartlett, or otherwise, "took" the ECR race away from CFR.

its66
03-30-2007, 02:04 PM
Just remember that CFR did not "lose" the ECR date. CFR Board of Directors "chose" to give it up. No one, Barry Hair, Martin Bartlett, or otherwise, "took" the ECR race away from CFR.
[/b]

I realize that. Even though you quoted me, I didn't mention Barry, or any other individual as being responsible for taking the ECR away.

My point is that there have already been several changes.(Turkey Trot/SARRC, Daytona double SARRC, etc). If one reads the excerpt from the "Checker", there is a request to change the manner in which the race schedule is decided. IF this request becomes practice, I would imagine(IMHO) that the schedule would see even more changes.

Honest questions--What about the August Double SARRC at Daytona? That event was changed to a regional prior to losing the date due to repaving. Is that as big a problem as the ECR? Turkey Trot-typically has some of the largest fields possible-400+ entrants--now the Halloween race is a SARRC instead.

Just my opinion, FWIW

GKR_17
03-30-2007, 02:16 PM
From what I can find, there were 151 total cars entered in both enduro groups last year at Daytona; so at $25 or $30 each, CFR had to pay the ECR series between $3775 and $4530. Assuming entry fees are similar to last year, the average car will probably bring in about $210 (I assume about 3/4 will pay $30 extra for a second driver).

By those numbers the break even point is between 18 and 22 cars (probably 19 since so few register for the series).

I count at least 12 (maybe 14) cars that aren't going so far.

Leira: 8 cars
Robertson: 2 cars
Aspegren: 1 car
Stiegel/Fine: 1 car

maybe:
May: 1 car
McPeters/White: 1 car


Any more non-entries?

RX3
03-30-2007, 03:52 PM
ECR

This is some of the information I got before the other site went down maybe they will put the information back up and we can look at it again or Carol can help us out. I do not see many entrants.

The 2006 ECR final points show that 420 Drivers accumulated ECR points, (including 40 in SRF). Of those 420 drivers, only 48 were eligible for prize money (11.5%), which I assume means these guys registered as ECR entrants. Of the 48 registered entrants, only 5 were members of CFR and 4 were members of Florida region.

So, ECR you are one of the 4 members from Florida region or Central Fl.?

If I am wrong someone please show me the numbers.[u]

ECR
03-31-2007, 03:40 PM
As an aside......For those of you considering theCFR enduro at Daytona....look at the schedule...qualifying before lunch Saturday,racing at the end of Sunday...the time in between.........PRICELESS

titanium
03-31-2007, 06:41 PM
Where did you find the schedule?
I dont see it on the CFR or DLB website.

Hammer
04-01-2007, 08:17 AM
It is on the DLB website now

handfulz28
04-02-2007, 12:14 PM
so at $25 or $30 each, CFR had to pay the ECR series between $3775 and $4530.[/b]

Aren't the enduro entry fees always higher than the "regional only" fee? I'm guessing not one dime comes out of a region's pocket, it's all paid for by the entrants. The regions are just middle-men in the collection process.

As for this year's Daytona "enduro" schedule...what a joke! I love Daytona (as a track) and was actually looking forward to running this enduro. But if I've got to be there Friday to get a decent spot, qualify late Saturday morning, then d!ck around for the next day and a half only to be the last race on sunday?
Boycott the event, or boycott qualifying, or show up early Sunday morning to register. Enduros seem to be the red-headed stepchild of the region, but I bet they'd be a cash cow if treated fairly.

I thought I was done with that rant but I can't help it...I was at the NASA event at Homestead yesterday. From a racing perspective there's still lots of room "to grow" so to speak. And every event will have its issues. But this crap with SCCA just continues to sour me on the whole "club" racing idea. And for those that don't know me, I've been a licensed racer for ten years, including a few as a National racer. I stopped running Nationals and stayed with a regional-only program because I thought things might be a little "easier". But with all this political bickering, it's not fun anymore.

seckerich
04-02-2007, 12:48 PM
Your regions officers work for you the members. If you do not agree with their decisions and feel they are not properly representing you VOTE THEM OUT. Get your members together and let them know how you feel and expect them to listen.

Kolin Aspegren
04-02-2007, 05:14 PM
As an aside......For those of you considering theCFR enduro at Daytona....look at the schedule...qualifying before lunch Saturday,racing at the end of Sunday...the time in between.........PRICELESS


--------------------

El Cubano Rapido


Now that it too funny,lol


Kolin

ECR
04-03-2007, 07:02 PM
What'ts so funny?

Curmudgeon
04-06-2007, 04:21 PM
OK, now let me get this straight, you put on an event that draws 140 cars, you collect $215.00 from each driver which equals $30,100 and it costs you approximately $600.00 (12% of 140 drivers) in ECR fees, the CFR pockets $29,500 dollars, OR you put on a NON ECR event that only draws 90 cars, you collect $215.00 per car for a total of $19,250.00 , you don’t have to pay the ECR fees so CFR only LOOSES $10,250.00 dollars for the region and you throw the CFR members who DO participate in ECR under the bus?

Something is broke alright, but it sounds like the CFR Race Director to me. <_<

zracre
04-06-2007, 04:48 PM
I am not one to get all political, but this just seems wrong...I will probably go just because I like driving there...but if the top guys do not go it is no fun...We the majority of the members are the ones suffering at the hands of those in control. How does the ECR make the region look bad? Every one I know enjoys the event and looks forward to it every year. If the scoring takes too long or if people just dont get along from ECR/CFR put people in place that look out for the members interests...i.e RACING instead of butting heads with each others power trips. Joe Blow from wherever N.C wants a cool race and to get ECR points. Now they don&#39;t go because of the removal of the ECR status...I am the one who suffers as now I have one less competitor. I do not really know how it works inside (I do not like politics...) but it seems like something that can be fixed the right way. Who do I need to buy beer for to make this happen? :birra:

Mattberg
04-07-2007, 11:33 PM
Just remember that CFR did not "lose" the ECR date. CFR Board of Directors "chose" to give it up. No one, Barry Hair, Martin Bartlett, or otherwise, "took" the ECR race away from CFR.
[/b]


Absolute horse hockey. Martin Bartlett and Barry Hair along with the little non-racing regions the recruited are 100% responsible. I warned you it was happening and you ignored it. THere will be plenty more problems and cancellations. I wouldn&#39;t be surprised to see Martin and Barry quit to avoid blame for f&#39;ing up the whole division so that their solo programs could survive because that was what this was all about.

Chris Wire
04-08-2007, 12:01 AM
I wouldn&#39;t be surprised to see Martin and Barry quit to avoid blame for f&#39;ing up the whole division so that their solo programs could survive because that was what this was all about.
[/b]

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm...

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...topic=11076&hl= (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11076&hl=)

Butch Kummer
04-08-2007, 11:18 AM
As usual, there&#39;s no sense in trying to discuss things rationally with Matt. He blames Barry and the freshly departed Martin for the Florida SARRC schedule as well as the demise of ECR at Daytona and no amount of talk will change his mind. But if Martin was destroying the SEDIV racing program to protect his Solo program, why would he resign just as he&#39;s succeeded?

It&#39;s been known for a LONG time (long before Barry and Martin were elected) that CFR in general feels the rest of of SEDIV is a burden on their racing program. Through the fortunes of population, good weather and a couple of historic racetracks, they have close to 400 entries at each of their events. Perhaps they are correct that they could have successful programs even if no one north of Gainesville ever darkened their doorsteps, and they&#39;re willing to take the chance to find out. The changes in the 2007 CFR racing program came from within the region and are NOT due to any new outside influences brought about by Barry Hair, Martin Bartlett or anyone else outside Florida.

Not that Matt will believe any of this... :dead_horse:

its66
04-08-2007, 10:06 PM
..snip...It&#39;s been known for a LONG time (long before Barry and Martin were elected) that CFR in general feels the rest of of SEDIV is a burden on their racing program. Through the fortunes of population, good weather and a couple of historic racetracks, they have close to 400 entries at each of their events. Perhaps they are correct that they could have successful programs even if no one north of Gainesville ever darkened their doorsteps, and they&#39;re willing to take the chance to find out. The changes in the 2007 CFR racing program came from within the region and are NOT due to any new outside influences brought about by Barry Hair, Martin Bartlett or anyone else outside Florida.

Not that Matt will believe any of this... :dead_horse:
[/b]

Butch,
Just a question on this, especially the highlighted part....How is the rest of the SEDiv a "burden" on CFR&#39;s racing program? Is SEDiv trying to limit the number of races which CFR(or any region) conducts? Is SEDiv trying to change SARRC dates? Is SEDiv trying to control or change the racing program in the state of Florida? If not, then I can&#39;t figure why there is this supposed feeling of burden.

As a member of CFR, and a member of this forum, it does seem more than just a coincidence that some of the things Matt said a long time ago were published in last month&#39;s Checker.

" There are two Divisional issues I need to let our newer members know about. One
is the race realignment proposal made by Regions to the north of us. The other
is the spec tire for SM regional racing. The race realignment proposal was
suggested in the 3rd quarter 2006, and the copy I have came to me from a
member in the Buccaneer Region, which
is in area 12. Each of the 8 racing regions in SEDiv would get 4 events.

1 National
1 SARRC
1 Drivers School
1 Regional weekend.

The remaining race dates would be decided by a lottery drawing with
overworked workers and families in mind and attention should be given to NO
racing around the year end holidays. No National or SARRC events for the
following year after each groups “runoff” until Jan. 1 of the following year."

So, I&#39;m torn as to whether to feel that the SEDiv or the northern regions are truly a burden. (burden is probably the wrong term either way) Are they trying to change our race schedule? Are we going to lose race weekends? Am I going to have to either double my towing budget(not likely) and miss more time off work(also not likely) to make the same number of events, or will I just race less. If what Matt said is wrong, and what Rick said is wrong, then I suppose I have nothing to worry about.

I am rational and have thought at length on this issue. I have not blamed Barry, Martin, or any other individual or group. I just want to know what is going on. Is Rick B&#39;s report of the proposal correct? Or is he making up the same stories that Matt told us last year?

To the others, sorry to drag this out once again.....but the door was already open.

Chris Wire
04-08-2007, 10:10 PM
It&#39;s no secret that on a National/ECR weekend the ECR is the red-headed stepchild of the bunch. It&#39;s pretty much filler. Having said that, it stands to reason that it falls to control of the event first, with economics and politics a distant tie for second.

Therefore, given that CFR has one of the most successful racing programs of any region in the country, it is not surprising that they might want to maintain a little more control over one of their premier events, even if it is at the expense of some entries/money, and especially if there is a difference of opinion on certain matters of how the race weekend should be conducted.

I don&#39;t doubt that there were outside circumstances that lent influence in their decision. And while Butch says that the decision came from within CFR, and I believe that it&#39;s true, I also believe it&#39;s naive to think that the recent stance within the division with regard to scaling back of successful racing programs in favor of a "lottery for remaining events" did not factor into that decision. I also think that Butch is wrong to think that CFR doesn&#39;t want anyone north of Gainesville to ever darken their doorsteps. I believe that the region welcomes racers equally from anywhere in the country; witness the perennial success of the January National at Sebring which draws many racers from the snowbelt. I also believe it&#39;s the politics and undue outside influencing of a very stable and successful race schedule that the region would rather not have to deal with.

Whatever side of the fence you stood on regarding Mattberg&#39;s position and that of his detractors, recent events have at least shown that the truth is definitely somewhere in the middle of "the sky is falling and Barry Hair did it" and "pay no attention to the men behind the curtain".

Personally, I would still like to see the race be an ECR, as I have enjoyed many battles with Tom Fowler and others from outside the region over the years. But I don&#39;t have a dog in the fight this year as I&#39;m sitting this one out. (Unless someone&#39;s got a cheap seat available.....wink, wink)

Curmudgeon
04-08-2007, 10:20 PM
Butch is exactly right, Hell SCCA National office has little or no control over CFR, let alone a couple of small virtually non racing regions, and believe me when I say Barry Hair has NO CHANCE of telling Robin Langlotz what to do, this is a CFR power play, plain and simple and BTW, I have spoken to John Zuccarrelli RE for Florida Region and he told me in no uncertain terms that Florida Region had ZERO interest in splitting SEDIV and joining CFR in a "Florida Division".

With all the other problems we have with a shortage of workers, new sound ordinances springing up, the rising cost of sanctions and insurance, the last thing we need is anyone buying into this cocamamie conspiracy theory Berg has been trying to sell for the last two years, consider the source and let it go, concentrate on making things better. :bash_1_:

Chris Wire
04-08-2007, 10:50 PM
With all the other problems we have with a shortage of workers, new sound ordinances springing up, the rising cost of sanctions and insurance, the last thing we need is anyone buying into this cocamamie conspiracy theory Berg has been trying to sell for the last two years, consider the source and let it go, concentrate on making things better. :bash_1_:
[/b]

Fine then. Maybe you (the unnamed Curmudgeon) or Butch could answer the questions posed by its66. I think they&#39;re pretty reasonable.

Regardless of the level of "cocamamie conspiracy" involved, it&#39;s pretty clear that the division is actively attempting to alter what are very successful racing programs in favor of the what they consider to be the "greater good" (where have we all heard that before?). :rolleyes:

JeffYoung
04-08-2007, 11:06 PM
I&#39;m in the NC region. I&#39;ve been following this stuff over the last year or so.

I am not in NC region leadership. I have a couple of racer friends who are, but I don&#39;t pretend to know anything about how our region works.

I will say that I have NEVER heard anyone in teh NC Region propose that any other region in the SEDiv be limited in the number of races they can/can&#39;t run.

I have heard of the proposal the CFR folks wrote about in their newsletter. I have also seen a lengthy explanation from Butch about it some months ago essentially saying that it was simply that, a proposal that was discussed and not adopted. Butch is that still the case?

While I don&#39;t like the way Matt presents his message, if it is true that some regions are trying to limit racing in the CFR, well then, I have to say that is wrong and Matt has a point. However, if (as I believe) taht is not the case, then I hope good sense will prevail, we&#39;ll all settle down and continue on as we have for the last 4 years (the amount of time I&#39;ve been racing).

I went to Daytona last year and found nothing but hospitable folks. I really enjoy it when guys from Florida make it to Roebling, CMP or VIR. I really hope that continues.

Mattberg
04-09-2007, 12:59 AM
Fine then. Maybe you (the unnamed Curmudgeon) or Butch could answer the questions posed by its66. I think they&#39;re pretty reasonable.

Regardless of the level of "cocamamie conspiracy" involved, it&#39;s pretty clear that the division is actively attempting to alter what are very successful racing programs in favor of the what they consider to be the "greater good" (where have we all heard that before?). :rolleyes:
[/b]

You see folks, Chris has hit the nail on the head. Why change a successful program? Because Barry, Martin and the other RE&#39;s wanted a bigger peice of the pie. It was PURELY greed. The plan I presented to you over a year ago was exactly what they implemented, right down to the letter. They looked us all in the face at Jeckyll and said it wasn&#39;t happening then went and got the votes of every little podunk non-racing region and forced it through just like I said they would. The thought was they could redistribute the wealth and fund their solo programs and other non-racing activities.

You guys lost your ECR and soon, lots of other races because Martin and Barry wanted more money to pay for solo and social events. Road racing... It&#39;s the only money maker in the club. But, as I said it would, it backfired. No workers and no racers means no money. They forced Florida&#39;s hand and tried to socialize it thinking they could force Florida racers north to their events. Read the plan... "No racing during the holidays..." Why not? What does the division care? It&#39;s a strain on the workers? We&#39;ve never had worker problems at the Turkey Trot. This is such absolute nonsense. It was all about keeping racing out of Florida and making Florida racers hungry for THEIR events.

As I said... Atlanta and NC will be the big losers as a result. Look for more cancellations and cutbacks.

Butch Kummer
04-09-2007, 08:57 AM
OK, one more time. And this time, Matt, I&#39;ll speak s-l-o-w-l-y.

The proposal/concept/idea put forth by Fred Clark of Buccanneer Region did in fact offer a suggestion to cut back the racing season for ALL regions and create a method that regions wanting to implement a racing program could find weekends on which to race. It was a SUGGESTION, a stepping-off point for discussion, a way to get things moving - and yes, it worked better than Fred ever thought it might. At the first "secret meeting" at Jekyll back in January 2006 (which I attended as Competition Director for Atlanta Region), Fred apologized to all concerned about the furor his SUGGESTION created and we all had a good laugh about it. No changes to the schedule or guidelines resulted from that meeting, no votes of any kind were taken and there was no clandestine lobbying going on that I was aware of - it was simply an opportunity for the RE&#39;s and Competition Directors from the SEDIV regions to meet in a relaxed atmosphere, get to know each other, and discuss issues that each of us face.

I have no idea why Rick Balderson brings this up in a recent issue of The Checker. It was a dead issue then, it&#39;s a dead issue now. In my discussions with Rick and Robin (at Jekyll in 2007) they both confirmed my suggestion that the moved their SARRC sanctions to "off" weekends because the August Daytona weekend and the Turkey Trot were already oversubscribed and they chose not to "waste" their SARRC sanctions on events that already were approaching 400 entries (which they feel is the maximum number they can handle logistically). As an aside, they (CFR) also do not allow the 2-3 Craftsman Trucks that run SPO in other regions to run their events because they don&#39;t need the extra entries. Is this also a conspiracy among the northern regions?

I agree that "burden" is probably too harsh a word. I have run CFR events in the past and have always been made to feel welcome even though I live north of Gainesville, FL. And I don&#39;t mean to imply that CFR doesn&#39;t want us at their events, all I was saying is that CFR doesn&#39;t NEED the rest of the division to show up in order to have well-subscribed events. There are enough racers in Florida to have a healthy race program. Indeed many racers in Florida rarely venture outside the state because they have ample opportunity for competition within the Sunshine State.

That said, there IS an underlying friction between CFR and the rest of the division (and National) that has been there for years. One such case is the long-standing SARRC rule that the SARRC points race must be the longest race of the weekend and must be the first race in a day if multiple races are being held. Those who run CFR events know that CFR likes to schedule multiple races in a weekend, so this requirement is seen by some within CFR as "telling us how to run our events". Another rule (new this year from National) is that copies of event results MUST be made available to all participants before the weekend is complete, otherwise the host region must send hardcopies of the results to all drivers and entrants. This is a direct result of regions not providing copies of the grid sheets and results at the track. Those who run CFR events will remember having to crowd around the single copy of the grid sheet posted inside the glass of T&S and having to copy down the grid spots while every other racing region in SEDIV makes copies available. Again, some with CFR see this as others telling them how to run their events.

Back about three pages Robin Langlotz posted that he was dissatisfied with the ECR Series and chose not to participate any longer. I&#39;m not on the ECR Committtee and I don&#39;t know the issues, but it is completely Robin&#39;s choice to participate in ECR or not. I do know there has been grumbling among the National drivers about the ECR taking track time away from them at the May Daytona event (we get the same grumbling in Atlanta about our Pro-IT series). As race organizers, we (and Robin and his staff) make decisions that may ruffle some feathers but we need to look at the bottom line for the entire race program, not just a select group of racers. We make our choice to keep Pro-IT, CFR chooses to drop out of ECR - it&#39;s the decision of the host region and is NOT directed by anyone outside that region.

Finally, when determining who is telling the truth and who is lying I ask you to look at the track records (literally and figuratively) of those speaking. I do not hide behind psuedonyms (sp?) and I actually show up at the track on occasion. I&#39;m undecided about attending the Jim Stark weekend at Roebling the end of this month, but I plan on being at VIR May 11-13, Nashville May 19-20 (at a Track Trials), Road Atlanta June 1-3, Little Talladega June 9-10, the Double National at Roebling June 29-July 1, Barber July 7-8, Road Atlanta July 20-22, the Mid-Year Meeting July 28, VIR Aug 10-12, Nashville Sep 1-2, the SIC, the Runoffs, and the ARRC. Some of those events I will be driving, some crewing, some officiating and some all three. Come introduce yourself and I&#39;ll make time to talk.

Butch Kummer

Butch Kummer
04-09-2007, 09:12 AM
Damn, Matt, I&#39;m disappointed. In the time it took me to write my response you (or someone else) went in and deleted the portion of your post where you called me a patent liar. I REALLY want you to introduce yourself at one the events I plan to attend later this year.

JeffYoung
04-09-2007, 09:29 AM
Butch, again, thank you.

its66
04-09-2007, 10:23 AM
Butch,
Thanks for the reply. I hope that you are right, and that this issue/suggestion of limiting race dates, and having a lotto of sorts for remaining dates is truly a dead issue. Even if this wasn&#39;t brought up in an official capacity at an official meeting, it was brought up by officials. Unfortunately, even unofficial actions of officials become part of public scrutiny. That being said, I hope you can understand that some might get their feathers ruffled by an unofficial proposal such as this.

With regards to the Daytona ECR(the real purpose of this thread), I am torn. I can see both sides.

Krysd
04-09-2007, 11:29 AM
Butch,
Thanks for your very well written explanation. I agree that this old saw of Freds has been kicked around the SEDIV for much to long and you are quite correct in saying it is a DEAD issue, will changes be proposed in the future? I certainly hope so, that is what keeps our Division healthy, will they all be adopted? I hope not, but they should be aired out.

I don&#39;t subscribe to everything that Curmudgeon says, but the one thing I do agree with is that the idea that ANY region, large or small, could force CFR to do something they didn&#39;t want to do is ludicrous. CFR is a huge region with may resources and they are used to calling their own shots, being TOLD what to do almost certainly ruffles their feathers and the reaction should have been forseeable. Is dropping the ECR a good thing? I don&#39;t think so, but when you are the 800 pound gorilla you call the shots, at least in your own part of the jungle, and we can complain and gripe all we want, it won&#39;t change a thing. If you want to make a statement, stay away, don&#39;t attend the non ECR events or the non SARRC events, it is your right to NOT participate.

Krys Dean

Mattberg
04-09-2007, 04:29 PM
Butch,
Thanks for your very well written explanation. I agree that this old saw of Freds has been kicked around the SEDIV for much to long and you are quite correct in saying it is a DEAD issue, will changes be proposed in the future? I certainly hope so, that is what keeps our Division healthy, will they all be adopted? I hope not, but they should be aired out.

I don&#39;t subscribe to everything that Curmudgeon says, but the one thing I do agree with is that the idea that ANY region, large or small, could force CFR to do something they didn&#39;t want to do is ludicrous. CFR is a huge region with may resources and they are used to calling their own shots, being TOLD what to do almost certainly ruffles their feathers and the reaction should have been forseeable. Is dropping the ECR a good thing? I don&#39;t think so, but when you are the 800 pound gorilla you call the shots, at least in your own part of the jungle, and we can complain and gripe all we want, it won&#39;t change a thing. If you want to make a statement, stay away, don&#39;t attend the non ECR events or the non SARRC events, it is your right to NOT participate.

Krys Dean
[/b]

Wow. For a "DEAD issue" it seems to have an awful lot of current impact and traction...

And the issue is not dead, just one that many would like to ignore and pretend is dead. It goes way beyond CFR merely being upset or getting their titty in a ringer over the actions of a few rogue REs and regions. It&#39;s about non-racing regions, autocrossers, workers, officials and non-racers controlling road racing in the SEDIV. It&#39;s not about CFR getting pushed around by some little region, it&#39;s about those little regions banding together and exercising greater influence than they should have. The structure of divisional management and voting is ALL wrong. There are TOO many regions, some of which couldn&#39;t put on a tea party let alone a racing event. Yet, they have an equal say in how road racing and policy are carried out. Making matters far worse is that as a group, they constitute a majority that not only has equal say regardless of numbers, but potentially, FINAL say in issues while representing little or none of the road racer/road race worker base.

No it is not a dead issue. What exactly Barry and Martin said and did in their meeting at Jeckyll or have been doing since, I don&#39;t know for sure, but the tune has obvioiusly not changed despite what we were told at the time. The comments in this month&#39;s CFR&#39;s Checker clearly confirm that the Clark proposal is far from a dead issue. And I quote:

"The race realignment proposal was suggested in the 3rd quarter 2006, and the copy I have came to me from a member in the Buccaneer Region... Each of the 8 racing regions in SEDiv would get 4 events.

1 National
1 SARRC
1 Drivers School
1 Regional weekend

The remaining race dates would be decided by a lottery drawing with overworked workers and families in mind and attention should be given to NO racing around the year end holidays.

No National or SARRC events for the following year after each groups "runoff" until Jan. 1 of the following year."

End of quote.

First off, the memo was originally floated in writing by Clark in 2005. We were told it didn&#39;t exist. It had supposedly only been an informal discussion. When I got a copy of the original proving such did exist, we were told it was a dead issue. Leading up to the Jeckyll meeting in December 2005, I caught wind of Barry Hair trying to push for this plan and arranging a separate meeting outside the confines of the Divisional conference. Again, we were told it was not happening. When proof of that meeting was confirmed it was back to calling the proposal a dead issue, yet I received not one but two calls the week of that meeting notifying me that Barry was indeed contacting the smaller non-racing regions for support of the proposal... but of course the issue was still dead. Coming out of that meeting in January 2006 we were again told it was a dead issue. So here we go into 2007 and the issue seems to be very much alive. This damn turd just won&#39;t flush!

Second, you must remember the true intentions of this proposal. Ah yes, there was the window dressing version and then there was the real deal that was ultimately fessed up to by Barry himself. It was not to get non-racing regions more involved or give them a chance at being a race region as claimed but an attempt to redistribute the racing to make struggling regions and events more lucrative by screwing with the existing supply and demand model in which Florida enjoyed an enviable position. Sure they were offering a few crumbs to a few dumpy regions for their support but in the end it was about forcing racers to events by containing competition and shrinking market. I see nothing in the Q3 proposal that would suggest anything other than those original intentions are still in place.

Third, as the proposal floated Q3 2006 looks identical to the one from 2005, combined with the reaction and comments coming out of CFR over the past six months, there is little doubt that the attempts to implement such a plan are back on the table. Everything being said here and at Jeckyll about it being dead are hard to accept as true. You can keep saying it and maybe you can start believing it but it ain&#39;t going away for some reason and no one seems to have any answers. So instead of scratching one&#39;s head wondering what&#39;s going on, groaning over cancelled events and accepting the messing up good racing, perhaps we can find out who is on this continued campaign of redistribution and get them to knock it off. I have a good idea who it is but more importantly, we need to understand the bigger picture and situation here, fix it, and stop it from continuing or happening again.

Lastly, and only as a sidenote; to even suggest no racing through the holidays or post Runoffs is a blatant slap in the face to the Florida folks. The irresponsibility of any RE in the Division endorsing such let alone circulating such a plan leaves me incredulized. The fact that it comes AFTER they had supposedly already said it was not being pursued at the 2006 Jeckyll meeting combined with the sponsors of said plan seeking support from the podunk non-racing regions in the interim is an even greater slap in the face. I give CFR a lot of credit for not taking more extreme action or simply leaving the division.

Butch Kummer
04-09-2007, 10:55 PM
I should probably leave this alone, but I guess it&#39;s like watching a car wreck...

There are a number of differences between you & I, Matt, but one of the biggest (even though I&#39;m a "blatant liar") is that I&#39;m willing to admit I might be mistaken. I completely missed the "third quarter of 2006" reference in Rick&#39;s RE Report, so I checked with Atlanta Region&#39;s RE at our Race Board meeting tonight to see if she had heard anything about the resurrection of the Buccaneer Plan. She had not, but then if we subscribe to your conspiracy theory then we would not have. Barry and his minions are deliberately keeping their plan secret from us (Atlanta Region) to further solidify their power structure before springing it upon the unsuspecting public. If so, I will be the first to admit that I was wrong and you were right.

The only fallacy I can see in Barry&#39;s thinking is that he&#39;s publicly admitted that they cannot put on an event at Barber without Atlanta Region&#39;s assistance. He&#39;s got to know that we would oppose such a plan and that we&#39;d certainly cease to support their efforts, but perhaps he hasn&#39;t thought that far ahead. But then he&#39;s also a power-hungry bureaucrat that is a blatant liar as well. Ah if only we were as enlightened as you, Matt.

What I CAN tell you, however, is that if such a plan is presented to the RE&#39;s and comes up for a vote the Atlanta Region will vote against it. If it passes anyway, I can also guarantee that I will encourage Atlanta Region to join CFR in splitting from what remains of SEDIV even though we&#39;re in the heart of the division.

But then I suppose it&#39;s possible that Rick has gotten ahold of an old version of Bud&#39;s original (discarded) proposal and somehow thinks it&#39;s current. Another possibility is he simply mis-typed "2006" when he meant "2005" when explaining the reasoning behind the investigation into splitting off from SEDIV. What I do know is that when I asked him about the split at Jekyll (which was just before he wrote his March newsletter article), his dismissed concerns and said it was much ado about nothing. But then perhaps HE is a blatant liar as well. You can&#39;t trust anyone, can you?

You&#39;ll also remember that when the talk of CFR and Florida regions splitting off from SEDIV first came up I was non-comittal on whether that was a good thing or bad. There are benefits both ways (mostly for the National racers) and the SARRC series could easily be adjusted to accomodate two divisions. There really are pretty much two separate series with little cross-over now - the Florida racers seldom leave Florida and the northern racers seldom venture south - so it wouldn&#39;t take much to have North and South Champions with a true Runoffs-style event at the end of the season.

I&#39;ll also reiterate that the shuffling of the SARRC sanctions and the elimination of the ECR at Daytona were CFR decisions, not SEDIV decisions. Robin and Rick both told me that in person, but then we know they&#39;re both blatant liars anyway, right?

[For those that missed it, in his 12:59 AM post on April 9 Matt called me, among other things, a blatant liar. I&#39;m sorry I didn&#39;t record that for posterity because by 9:00 AM he (or someone that knows his password) had editted his post and removed that reference. I don&#39;t know if he was worried about slander (or is it libel?), but anyone that knows me understands I don&#39;t deal with lawyers when I&#39;ve been offended. Sure wish you&#39;d show up at one of the events I&#39;m going to, Matt - I&#39;m the 6&#39;7", 265 pound guy with the trick knee.]

I guess it will all come out in the end. I predict the "Fred Clark Resolution" is old news and will be never brought up at any meeting where it can be voted upon. I truly believe that proposal is dead and Rick really meant 2005 instead of 2006. There will (and should) be other discussions about how to allow new regions to build their racing programs, but it will be along the lines of the bigger regions assisting them (as we do with Alabama at Barber and Chattanooga/TVR at Nashville) rather than the smaller regions dictating the terms of surrender to the larger regions. If I&#39;m wrong I&#39;ll be glad to admit it here, but I&#39;m confident I won&#39;t have to.

Will you ever admit that YOU could be wrong, Matt?

No, I didn&#39;t think so.

JeffYoung
04-09-2007, 11:03 PM
And that is the rub. While some of the things Matt "predicted" have come to be, the cause is not (it seems to me) as Matt indicated. CFR appears to be doing this stuff on its own, and not because of anyreal proposal by other regions to limit racing in Florida.

Curmudgeon
04-09-2007, 11:16 PM
Lets see, a division made up of Atlanta, Bucaneer, Central Florida and Florida Regions???? Talk about an 800 pound gorilla!!!!!! :birra:

Mattberg
04-10-2007, 12:00 AM
Lets see, a division made up of Atlanta, Bucaneer, Central Florida and Florida Regions???? Talk about an 800 pound gorilla!!!!!! :birra:
[/b]


Yousa! Now that&#39;s a good idea. See ya&#39; Barry! NC is on their own and Alabama... well, who cares? He caused the whole problem in the first place.

Butch, personal note. Why the heck would Rick Balderson bring up this plan for member input in April 2007 if he was mistakenly referring to the May 2005 memo? Do you read what you write? Think about that a little while and get back to me. :blink:

Racers.... question all from here on in because the whitewashing is in full gear. After a couple more cancellations and screwed up situations you&#39;ll come around. Hope it&#39;s not too late by then.

Chris Wire
04-10-2007, 01:01 AM
I could do without the condescension from either side as it gets a bit tiresome, and actually detracts from what should be a very pertinent topic to many on this board.

I can&#39;t believe that Rick Balderson would mistakenly bring up a topic for input in 07 that has been "dead" for a year now. There is likely something, or at the very least the appearance of something afoot. And while I haven&#39;t spoken to Rick lately on the subject, I have come to trust his judgement over the years.

No amount of name-calling or finger-pointing is really going to solve anything. What is necessary to move forward is to get as many facts on the table as possible. If there are those that have covert motives to change the structure of racing in SEDiv, I would hope that they would realize that no one will be served by subversion, and the end result will be a backlash against the perpetrators. Better to air it out now, and maybe involve more of the membership in search of a solution.

Yes, CFR is a big boy and can make big boy decisions. I just hope that they are not being made in response to outside attempts to drastically alter the makeup of racing in SEDiv. Regardless of who the players are.

Butch, I thank you for your willingness to continue to address this topic. And believe it or not, I thank Mattberg for being the splinter in the lion&#39;s paw! I hope to see more substance and honesty in the matter, and maybe a little less gradeschool sandbox name-calling.

Light always triumphs over darkness. Here&#39;s hoping for a little more light on the subject.

JeffYoung
04-10-2007, 01:04 AM
Guys, other than this statement in the CFR newsletter, can anyone provide any substantiation that anyone in any other region in the SEDiv wants to take races away from CFR?

Butch Kummer
04-10-2007, 09:25 AM
"Butch, personal note. Why the heck would Rick Balderson bring up this plan for member input in April 2007 if he was mistakenly referring to the May 2005 memo? Do you read what you write? Think about that a little while and get back to me."

Answer (and no, I haven&#39;t talked to Rick - have you?): I think Rick was trying to explain to new people on the block as to why there was a motion for CFR and Florida Regions to split from SEDIV. The 2005 Buccaneer Plan and the Spec Miate tire rule override were just some of the more visible issues in the recent past.

I&#39;m a lot closer to the inner workings of SEDIV politics than most and I see no cause for alarm at this point. CFR has chosen to no longer run ECR because they do not feel ECR meets their needs (our ARRC Enduro is not an ECR event either, although we will continue to hold ECR events during the season). CFR has shuffled their SARRC sanctions to do what they feel is best for their overall race program. Perhaps these changes are a reaction to SEDIV rules, but no one within SEDIV has required that CFR make these changes. As far as anyone in Atlanta Region knows, there is no proposal in the wings to further limit the number of races a region may hold.

Perhaps I&#39;m being decieved, so I agree that we need to be aware of what&#39;s going on. However calling people liars and accusing them of clandestine actions does nothing but incite anger and resentment. I will continue to be heavily involved in the politics and administration of the various SEDIV racing programs, and I&#39;ll let you know if something changes.

You don&#39;t have to trust me, but don&#39;t call me a liar either...

Chris Wire
04-10-2007, 10:52 AM
Update:

There is no mention of this topic in the Checker newsletter this month.

Mattberg
04-10-2007, 11:04 AM
Butch,

As I have said to you personally. I don&#39;t believe you have lied to anyone. And, I sincerely apologize publicly for any such comments.

I do believe you have on occasion regurgitated information from sources that may have used your close ties to the racers and presence here to accomplish their goals without interference and under the guise of legitamacy. You yourself denied the existence of any proposal some time ago before finally admitting that when I posted it, it was the first time you had heard or seen of it. That is a far more dangerous situation. We need YOU to start questioning what officials are doing instead of rationalizing their actions and pacifying the racers here.

Races are being lost, shifted and cancelled. It was my fear over a year ago and it&#39;s quite real right now. I doubt it has to do with a typo or petty feud as you suggest. There were no severe problems when it started but it has developed quickly since. Where there&#39;s smoke, there&#39;s fire. How many more races should we expect to lose?

Butch Kummer
04-10-2007, 12:13 PM
Matt,

Apology accepted. And I DO look forward to meeting you sometime.

While I promise to be more diligent in searching for what is going on, I&#39;d ask you to not immediately suspect Barry&#39;s black helicopters any time something happens that you may not agree with.

1. We lost the February SARRC/ECR/Pro-IT event at Road Atlanta because the track was not ready after being repaved over the winter. Nothing sinister there and I fully expect we&#39;ll get our traditional date in 2008 and beyond (assuming Road Atlanta does not become a golf course in the interim - something over which we have no control).

2. The March NCR event was moved from VIR to Rockingham because the track went for the green and accepted a PCA event that would utilize more of the facility at a higher rental rate. You can rail about loyalty, but each track is first and foremost a business. We lost our traditional Labor Day weekend at Road Atlanta because the AMA wanted the date and could put 75,000 people in the place. You adjust the plan and move on.

3. Rick Balderson and Robin Langlotz both told me they moved the CFR sanctions from Daytona and the Turkey Trot because they felt they didn&#39;t need the draw of SARRC to fill those events beyond capacity. They then lost Daytona this August due to track maintenance (see item #1) so it will be at least 2008 before we know for sure whether not shifting that Double SARRC sanction will adversely affect attendance. Robin did say (at Jekyll in an open meeting) that attendance at the 2006 Turkey Trot was down about 20-30 cars from previous years, but he/they felt such a drop was acceptable. Whether or not they make it up through the "new" SARRC races remains to be seen, but it is purely a CFR decision.

4. Florida Region moves it&#39;s SARRC dates around because of track availability plus the desire to take advantage of South Florida&#39;s warm winters and avoid the heat of summer. Again a local decision that was not dictated by anyone in SEDIV or the SARRC Committee.

5. CFR decides to withdraw from the ECR series. Robin posts on here it&#39;s because he/they feel the ECR juice ain&#39;t worth the squeeze (my words, not his). What will be the impact of that change? I guess we&#39;ll find out in a month or so. Can CFR re-join ECR if they decide it&#39;s the right thing to do? Damn straight they can.

6. CCR is talking about dropping their June 16-17 SARRC/ECR at Lowe&#39;s. Yes the (one-time) reschedule of our Feb SARRC event to June 1 (combined with a National) will have some impact on their attendance, but the Lowe&#39;s event has been "iffy" for years. The track rules at Lowe&#39;s are some of the toughest to deal with in SEDIV (I was told to put my 4-wheeler back in the trailer last year, but I could rent a golf cart from them and that was okay?), the rental rates are among the highest in SEDIV and we can&#39;t run race engines before noon on Sunday due to local ordinance. I&#39;m sorry if they blame the event&#39;s demise on Atlanta Region, but last year&#39;s event (and the reason I attended it) was already being billed as the "Last Ever". I&#39;ll take some of the blame, but not all of it.

7. CCR&#39;s RE resigns. I&#39;m not a member of CCR and I don&#39;t know the inside scoop, but I have worked with CCR personnel extensively on their past and current Hill Climb programs. Mr. Bartlett means well, but he&#39;s also pissed off just about everyone in SEDIV (and many of his own members) at one time or another over the years. Apparently they (either mutually or not) decided it was time to go a different direction.

In none of these occurences do I see fingerprints of any conspiracy led by Barry or anyone else. Others may disagree and I may indeed be blind, but I can only go with what I see. What I can promise, however, is that if ANY proposal is ever floated to further limit the number of races any region can host I will lobby against it. If it comes to a vote, I will encourage my RE to vote against it. If she goes against my wishes on said issue, I will resign my position in the Atlanta Region (my car doesn&#39;t care what stickers I run on it).

Things WILL change - that is inevitable:

Against the objections of a vocal few we implemented a "no at track entry" policy at our March National/Pro-IT. The racers appear to have accepted it because it meant there were NO lines more than five minutes long at Registration. Had it not worked, we could always have returned to the old way, but look for that policy at more and more events across SEDIV because it doesn&#39;t kill the Registrars.

There is discussion in the SARRC community to lessen the importance of the SIC by removing finishing position there as the first tie-breaker in the championship. What I believe will be proposed is to make total wins, then seconds, then thirds in SARRC races be used to break ties, then if things are STILL even use the finishing position at the SIC as the final decider. I support that change because it encourages people to run more than the minimum number of SARRC races in a season but doesn&#39;t prohibitively penalize those than can&#39;t. There&#39;s also discussion about counting one&#39;s best eight finishes rather than six, but I&#39;m not yet ready to support that. I&#39;m also looking at expanding the GTA concept (a topic near and dear to me) to include more cars, I LIKE having a choice of only two tires in GTA, I support the idea of a comprehensive survey of competitors when proposing changes (like the SM & IT-7 spec tire rules) and I even see signs (at least locally) of a softening of the negative attitudes many old-time SCCA folks have for NASA. Perhaps the world really IS coming to an end tomorrow! :lol:

And again I offer what I wrote before. I will be at the track throughout the year and hopefully for seasons to come. If you have questions about where things are going (and why!), ask me. I WILL make time to talk to you because more people racing is a good thing.

To paraphrase Forrest Gump: "I&#39;m tired now. I think I&#39;ll go home..."

Krysd
04-10-2007, 12:59 PM
Butch,

Robin Langlotz told me the same thing about moving the SARRC dates, both Daytona and the Turkey Trot were at the very limit with regard to car count and he felt that moving the SARRC dates would spread the car count around a little and ease the impact on the facilities, it simply makes sense for CFR to do this from a Regional perspective. I hate to see those great events go away, but sometimes you just have to accept reality and move on.

You are absolutely correct about Florida Region mixing and matching dates to avoid the hot summer months, our track officials are working their tails off with the schedule we have, and driving or working at Homestead or Moroso in July and August is a truely an act of masochism.

I believe Florida Region, Atlanta Region and CFR will all both support the smaller regions who want to develop a racing program, but not at the expense of our own regions. Frankly they need Florida, CFR, and Atlanta to make those programs work.

And lastly (is that really a word?), I want to congratulate you on the excellent job you have done with GT-A. GT-A has become one of the fastest growing, most exciting and least expensive of all the "Big Bore" classes, that is not an accident, you have served the class well and have done a great service to SEDIV as well.

Thanks

Krys Dean

seckerich
04-10-2007, 02:17 PM
Very good post Butch. The decision to possibly cancel the Lowes event is due to all the factors you previously stated. The cost and restrictions involved in this race are hard to overcome for a club race. Our BOD fully understands Atlanta regions need to move their date this one time and support you 100%. We are currently looking into possible options to keep this event on the schedule. We will evaluate the cost and rate needed to make it fly and see if the market will accept the fee. If not we will move on and make changes necessary to have the event in 08. No blame to share Butch. :D

We are also making changes to out Memorial Monster event at CMP to make it more attractive for the ECR and Carolina Cup drivers. We are planning the CCPS 45 min race for last thing Saturday when it is cooler. We are seeking input on the addition of a 3 hour ECR Monday morning to give drivers the longer races you have asked for and still get the long haul drivers out the door by Noon so you can easily make work on Tuesday. We are looking at a 30 min session for the ECR drivers on Sunday last session to let you check out the track and have cars ready for the race. I need to get my Supps. done by Friday so speak up now if you love or hate it. We are working hard to have happy customers.

ECR
04-10-2007, 03:31 PM
Re Memorial Monster; Steve,as an ECR entrant who comes from the (almost) southernmost point in the division I greatfully applaud anything you can do to expedite my exit after the event since,from what I have been told,I would have a 14 hour tow.This ,coupled with the fact that the ECR has been the last race of the weekend is what has kept me away in the past. If you are able to change the schedule,as you have suggested,I will enthusiastically support this event and recommend it to my fellow competitors. Thanks again, David Leira

Knestis
04-10-2007, 04:08 PM
First, on the big picture: This "conversation" is more evidence that we are our own worst enemy. Seriously. The next time someone asks you about getting involved in SCCA Club Racing, have them read this stinker and watch their reaction. We&#39;ve pretty much lost the same number of members that we&#39;ve gained every year for ages now, and crap like this is just one more reason for that.

More specifically, as a sometimes-ECR-dedicated-enduro-guy, I applaud Steve E&#39;s thinking re: scheduling. Someone&#39;s got to be in the last race group of the weekend but if an enduro is seen as attractive to more distantly located entrants, there&#39;s clearly value to the program for that race NOT drawing the short straw. That said, if an enduro is added to a National weekend, and the Nat&#39;s are thought to be the big draw, the same logic applies...

K

seckerich
04-11-2007, 02:06 PM
The support will be greatly appreciated. We will be working to make our races more driver friendly and give you what you want. The higher attendance allows us to keep your cost down in the future and provide better race venues. Please feel free to offer any suggestions at our events. We are working to offer more ECR opportunities in the near future as well. :eclipsee_steering:

lateapex911
04-15-2007, 04:03 AM
Wow.

And us New Yorkers/Yankees are usually the ones said to have the behind the scenes back stories and other shady dealings! LOL

Butch, I met you breifly at RA at the ARRCs this year, and have enjoyed your part in the running of that event, as well as your posts here. When you meet Matt, you&#39;ll be surprised. Honestly, it&#39;s hard to know where to categorize him...in person, he&#39;s a normal guy (albeit with a bit of a temper, I guess), and he&#39;s more than willing to pitch in and help out a fellow racer. An engaging guy....

On the net, well, it&#39;s a Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde situation. Odd coincidence that! I read his stuff, and honestly, when I finish, my head is spinning...so many grand statements with so little facts, and a whole lot of patting himself on the back.

I assure you, you&#39;ll be a little confused for a bit, but I know you&#39;ll enjoy his company, one way or another...;).

As to this situation, I have to say (and I&#39;m sure I&#39;m oversimplifying) that Robins explanation said more between the lines than it did in the lines. From an outsiders POV, it sounds to me like the CFR is a big player, and just got pissed off and decided to do it their way. Period. I&#39;m sure behind it all, somebody said something that hurt somebodies ego and the next thing you know, someone&#39;s throwing their weight around, and in the end, the racers suffer.

If I&#39;m right, that&#39;s too bad.

rx7racer1
04-15-2007, 12:20 PM
As a member of CFR I have a problem with eliminating the ECR sanction
for the May event. I looked back at last year&#39;s results and it appears that
151 cars attended the event. According to DLB only 82 cars (not drivers)
are entered. Thats a huge financial loss to the region and I don&#39;t think that
makes any sense and I certainly hope that this was not a decision made by
one person.

Mattberg
04-15-2007, 08:22 PM
As a member of CFR I have a problem with eliminating the ECR sanction
for the May event. I looked back at last year&#39;s results and it appears that
151 cars attended the event. According to DLB only 82 cars (not drivers)
are entered. Thats a huge financial loss to the region and I don&#39;t think that
makes any sense and I certainly hope that this was not a decision made by
one person.
[/b]

Yes it was. His name is Barry Hair, RE for the Alabama region.

lateapex911
04-15-2007, 09:12 PM
How about some facts...some easy to follow facts that can be confirmed to back that statement up? Otherwise you&#39;re just on a hair....

its66
04-15-2007, 11:09 PM
I think the big gap in the schedule may be as big a turn off for many as the ECR situation is. Has anyone asked Robin L why the change in the schedule??? I&#39;d be curious to know what happened there.

That could be part of the "lost" entries. There are still almost three weeks left, I doubt we&#39;ve seen all the entries.

Hammer
04-15-2007, 11:42 PM
The schedule was changed to appease the National drivers. The National drivers have complained for years that both IT enduros were held before their races and that most of tne National races were held after lunch on Sunday. The schedule this year has the National races finshed before lunch on Sunday. The National racers also complain that the IT drivers get much more track time that weekend for a similar entry fee.

Chris Wire
04-15-2007, 11:57 PM
The schedule was changed to appease the National drivers. The National drivers have complained for years that both IT enduros were held before their races and that most of tne National races were held after lunch on Sunday. The schedule this year has the National races finshed before lunch on Sunday. The National racers also complain that the IT drivers get much more track time that weekend for a similar entry fee.
[/b]

WWWHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Boo fricken hooooo!

Without us, they&#39;d be shelling out $600 bucks for a National weekend!

Besides, don&#39;t they just parade around on their mule engines just to get a finish?

charrbq
04-16-2007, 10:19 AM
It&#39;s particularly thoughtful of the National drivers to complain and get the schedule changed. After all, we all know that the world revolves around them. With the schedule as it stands, if someone is running one enduro and crewing for someone else in the other one, then someone gets screwed. Add that to picking up all the items needed for an enduro and getting out of there before the DIMS storm troopers come to run you out. Thanks National guys!

sgallimo
04-16-2007, 04:14 PM
Yes it was. His name is Barry Hair, RE for the Alabama region.
[/b]
Mattberg, please post a copy of the minutes from the CFR Board of Directors meeting where Barry Hair decided to eliminate the ECR sanction for the race in question.

Also, could you provide a link to the CFR Bylaws, and or Operations Manual, section that states that Barry Hair specifically, or the Regional Executive for the Alabama Region in general, has a vote at CFR Board of Directors meetings.

Capt.John
04-16-2007, 11:46 PM
Matt, you cetainly have a hard on for Barry Hair. Was you mother frightened by a person named Barry Hair before you were born? Such giant leaps of logic that continually seem to permeate your postings on this and other forums are at best comical. Why is some one from Palo Alto Calif so concerned about what is happening in SEDIV? Go straighten out San Francisco Region and Cal Club and give the SEDIV are rest from your vitriolic inuendo garbage.

Capt. John

Mattberg
04-17-2007, 10:21 AM
...and I think everybody should know that Captain John supported and actually endorsed Barry&#39;s ideas and plans to reduce racing in Florida.


As to this situation, I have to say (and I&#39;m sure I&#39;m oversimplifying) that Robins explanation said more between the lines than it did in the lines. From an outsiders POV, it sounds to me like the CFR is a big player, and just got pissed off and decided to do it their way. Period. I&#39;m sure behind it all, somebody said something that hurt somebodies ego and the next thing you know, someone&#39;s throwing their weight around, and in the end, the racers suffer.

If I&#39;m right, that&#39;s too bad.
[/b]

Pretty much says it all. But we can&#39;t say we weren&#39;t warned.

Krysd
04-17-2007, 10:45 AM
Capt. John,
DON&#39;T RUN MATT OFF!!!!! Florida Region just spent a lot of money on BRAND NEW CALENDARS so we could time that POS neon of his. :026:

Seriously Matt, get some professional help with this Barry Hare thing, I mean it is one thing to have a hair up you’re a$$, but this is ridiculous.

Krys Dean

sgallimo
04-17-2007, 10:46 AM
And while we&#39;re at it, I fully support Fred&#39;s ability to present his proposal. Why? Certainly not because I agree with it. Nor because I think it would solve the issues it perports to address. I support his ability to propose his ideas because (1) he&#39;s a paying member of our club and (2) I signed up to be part of the leadership of my portion of our club and part of that job is to listen to member ideas. We are duty bound to listen to all of the proposals, even the ones that don&#39;t fit.

Frankly, I don&#39;t care if Barry has a copy of Fred&#39;s proposal tattooed on his ass, it does not mean that it, or either of them, was responsible for CFR&#39;s manipulation of their own club racing program. It was a proposal and it was NOT adopted.

Mattberg
04-17-2007, 11:29 AM
So the proposal IS back on the table. Thank you.

I&#39;ll ignore the insult Krys. I did win the ECR and a nice check in that POS.

Butch Kummer
04-17-2007, 11:51 AM
In keeping my promise to try and be more aware of Barry Hair&#39;s nefarious plots to undermine ALL racing in SEDIV, I have to wonder if he&#39;s also behind the movement to require participation at less-subscribed events at Lime Rock Park to qualify for NARRC Double Points! Perhaps Barry&#39;s influence is even more pervasive than even Matt knows? :lol: And while I&#39;m sorry to see NEDIV embroiled in a similar controversy, it&#39;s somehow comforting to know that other divisions (and regions) are being creative in their reactions to local situations (i.e. - all dogs have fleas, it&#39;s just a question of how you want to scratch them).

I&#39;m tired of beating this particular horse. Based on pre-entries in DLB (counts are well over 100 total), it certainly appears at this time that CFR is correct in their assumption that attendance will not be substantially impacted by not making their annual Enduro an ECR-sanctioned event. Apparently racers want to run Daytona regardless of what stickers happen to be on their car. Remember attendance at this event may also be inflated due to no August event being available in 2007, so it will take until 2008 until the full impact of CFR&#39;s shifting SARRC sanctions and dropping out of ECR is determined.

Matt contends that Barry Hair is behind the plot while I am confident it&#39;s totally a CFR reaction to local issues. Time will tell which of us is correct, but in the meantime I will continue my efforts to build ALL racing programs in SEDIV. If some of that carries over to other parts of the country (like my "consultant" role in the Mid-Ohio IT/Spec Festival), then that&#39;s all the better.

And Matt, I&#39;ll repeat that my RE has heard nothing about a resufacing of the Fred Clark proposal. I believe any mention of support is a general statement supporting ANY member&#39;s right to present a proposal, not this one specifically.

I promise to give it a rest. Will you?

sgallimo
04-17-2007, 12:52 PM
So the proposal IS back on the table. ... snip ...
[/b]
Based on what proof?

Capt.John
04-17-2007, 02:32 PM
Matt.... Not to confuse you with fact .....that is a concept you seem to only pick facets of at your convenience.... but; I was the RE of the Florida Region( not to be confused with the Central Florida Region) when the Fred Clark PROPASAL to make changes in the scheduling of racing events was brought to the floor at the Mid-Year meeting in Atlanta in 2005. My Race Director, Mike Finn, was also in attendance. We saw a little sheet of paper that was being passed around with the 1 NAT. 1 SARRC 1 DR School 1 Regional format that you insist is a diabolical plot masterminded by the Devil Incarnate himself, Barry Hair. Mike and I agreed that there was no way that idea was going to fly and we DID NOT SUPPORT IT; NOR WOULD WE IN THE FUTURE!! Neither of us were against dialogue and discussion to achieve a better SEDIV schedule if possible. The RE&#39;s agreed to approach the subject at the SEDIV Convention at Jekyll in 2006. This was the "Great Secret Meeting" held at the Jekyll Island Club on Friday night. Matt you carried on as though you had uncovered a clandestine plot to emasculate the racing in SEDIV as a result of you abilities as a super sleuth. And who were those behind this dastardly act... BARRY HAIR and MARTIN BARTLETT, of course..... I had since stepped down as RE for the FL. Region and my replacement John Zuccarelli had been briefed about the PROPOSAL and did ot support it either.

I do not hold any elected position in the FL. Region at this time, so how I am working in consort with Barry Hair to reduce and undermine the racing in the Fl. Region appears to be another one of those "giant leaps of logic" you are so noted for. The Region chooses not to hold events during the summer July-August-Sept. because of the extreme heat here in South Florida. The volunteers have had a long 6 month seige with the SCCA events, Pro events as well as other activities. Ther seems to be something happening every weekend. The Region is willing to hold events on holidays and at the end of the year. There was a double SARRC race at Moroso Dec. 30-31 2006. I do support an aggressive race program in both the Fl. and Central Florida Regions to benefit the drivers and members. To make that happen, I bust my ass serving as a Steward, a worker, a member of our Race Board, and a competitor. To suggest that I somehow I have a hidden agenda and am working in cahoots with the Emperor of the Evil Empire, Barry Hair, to bring about the downfall of SCCA racing in Florida is ludicrous. Disingenuous statements and inuendo, designed to incite the uninformed and failing to produce factual documentation when asked to do so are trademarks of your numerous posts when you are in full attack mode. I guess you operate on the premise that if one throws enough crap on the wall some of it will probably stick. Give it a rest.

Capt. John

Mattberg
04-17-2007, 04:04 PM
...but I thought the plan was never brought up at the 2005 mid-year meeting? You told me yourself on the phone that it wasn&#39;t brought to the floor and others there say it never even existed and now you say differently? Egads. Furthermore you said there was no documentation and now you say there was? Why didn&#39;t you pass on a copy when we spoke or at least confirm the plan&#39;s existence? You denied anything existed. Why would you withold that information? I got the info and document from a different source long after I talked to you.

Anyone seeing the same pattern here? The story changes like the weather in New England.

Alas... the web one weaves...

But all you have to do is look at what&#39;s currently going on. You rationalize it all by saying CFR is big bad bully. Nonsense. They got pushed too far and will not put up with non-racing regions, autocrossers and posers trying to play divisional top dog vis-a-vis a gang approach on raod racing&#39;s nickel, at least not in Florida. It&#39;s only going to get worse for racers and that part sucks.

charrbq
04-17-2007, 04:13 PM
Disingenuous statements and inuendo, designed to incite the uninformed and failing to produce factual documentation when asked to do so are trademarks of your numerous posts when you are in full attack mode. I guess you operate on the premise that if one throws enough crap on the wall some of it will probably stick. Give it a rest.

Capt. John
[/quote]
This is the same method of attack that Adolph Hitler and his propaganda ministers used prior to and during WW II against the Jewish people.

I understand that some think that Matt is really a nice guy wearing a$$hole clothes, but anyone with this kind of anger issues is dangerous. It&#39;s only a matter of time before the internet is no longer good enough to serve as an outlet for his hateful feelings.

sgallimo
04-17-2007, 04:13 PM
...snip... You rationalize it all by saying CFR is big bad bully. Nonsense. They got pushed too far and will not put up with non-racing regions, autocrossers and posers trying to play divisional top dog vis-a-vis a gang approach on raod racing&#39;s nickel, at least not in Florida. ...snip...[/b]
Based on what proof? Please post copies of minutes from CFR Board of Directors meetings in which this proposal or pressure from other Region Executives changed CFR direction and/or policy. And while you&#39;re at it, please post copies of minutes from SEDIV meetings where this proposal was presented, voted on, and adopted.

Mattberg
04-17-2007, 10:44 PM
Based on what proof? Please post copies of minutes from CFR Board of Directors meetings in which this proposal or pressure from other Region Executives changed CFR direction and/or policy. And while you&#39;re at it, please post copies of minutes from SEDIV meetings where this proposal was presented, voted on, and adopted.
[/b]

You can check earlier in the thread where I quoted our RE directly. And if I recall correctly, in a previous issue of our regional magazine (sorry, I don&#39;t keep them), his words were something like the region would be discussing leaving the division due to unwanted and undue influence from regions to the North. Furthermore, I also know what I&#39;ve been told by regional and divisional officials first hand. So is CFR responsible for all the current issues? Certainly not. They&#39;ve said publicly at least some of what is behind the current situation, albeit in a somewhat nebulous manner. But like Jake said, it&#39;s pretty easy to read between the lines.

And all this nonsense about meeting minutes, bylaws, official documentation, etc. is silly. Use some common sense. Something&#39;s happening and it&#39;s pretty obvious what&#39;s going on. CFR says they&#39;re looking into leaving the division, the famous "dead" proposal that clearly limits Florida racing is clearly not dead and CFR&#39;s position in the division is still as a significant minority which has always been a source of tension. The last one is a clearly a result of actions from the regions north of Florida acting as a group unwilling and unlikely to change such. So, add it all up and you have the strongest region, perhaps in the country, subject to BS from the other regions and they&#39;ve had enough of.

I also don&#39;t remember any of this being as severe an issue before all of this nonsense started back in spring 2005, and now it is. Can you &#39;splain that Lucy? It seemed to me Florida was relatively happy and there was none of the current talk. Simple evaluation of the situation is needed, not bylaws, minutes and documentation. THe northern regions are the ones doing the pushing. Just because you haven&#39;t voted on it or you don&#39;t have it in your minutes doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s not happening. Good Lord! Do have any idea how much discussion our national BoD has off the record? You also have to realize that Florida must always fear any vote or divisional action that might affect their road racing. The minority position leaves Florida powerless to do anything should push come to shove outside of NOT being part of the division.

My best guess would be that CFR might be posturing for an exit from the division and removing divisional influences and establishing "Florida" division elements in their place. Weening Florida racers off of the current divisional related events like ECR would be important. As far as not paying the division for the "big" popular races like Daytona might be part of it as well but if you can still pull the crowd and not pay ECR I&#39;d say that&#39;s a bonus and it looks like that&#39;s the case. Lastly, by establishing a division of it&#39;s own I doubt any Florida racers would be headed out of state for anything but perhaps special events. Remember, as a separate division they&#39;d be entitled to as many as ten nationals at what is soon to be five tracks (Sebring, Moroso, Homestead, Daytona and the new DEI track). And with a regional series of its own and their smaller budgets, getting regional racers out of Florida is going to be REALLY tough.

That makes a big loser in the whole deal, as I said almost two years ago, Atlanta and NC should they decide to stick it to FL. It sure looks like that&#39;s exactly what they did. Unfortunately the biggest loser, at least in the short term, will be the racer.

Butch Kummer
04-18-2007, 08:42 AM
Matt has his opinion, I have mine. The major difference is I actually attended all the meetings (including the Secret One) that he can only provide hearsay evidence of. Be that as it may:

Matt states, "I also don&#39;t remember any of this being as severe an issue before all of this nonsense started back in spring 2005, and now it is. Can you &#39;splain that Lucy? It seemed to me Florida was relatively happy and there was none of the current talk."

If you look at the SARRC rules (available on the SEDIV website), you&#39;ll notice that rule 5.4 was added in January of 2004 (which is before all "this nonsense" started). That rule, which requires that all SARRC races be SCCA-sanctioned events, is a direct result of CFR threatening to run the August 2003 Daytona Double SARRC weekend under a NASA sanction since doing so was not specifically barred by the SARRC rules. I don&#39;t know all the reasons, but back then (early 2003) some within CFR were obviously reacting to being told how to run their race program and were making plans to take their ball and go home. In that instance cooler heads prevailed, but rule 5.4 was added to the SARRC rules to close that particular loophole.

I don&#39;t know how far back it goes, but there have been varying degrees of friction between Central Florida Region and the rest of SEDIV at least since I first got involved in SEDIV meetings back in 1997. Much as CalClub on the West Coast regularly threatens to leave SCCA, so has CFR. It&#39;s not CFR being a big bully, it&#39;s more along the lines of "We&#39;ve got one of the most successful programs in the country, what are you guys bringing to the table that makes it better?" A lot of people despise Tony George because he pulled out of CART and "ruined" open-wheel racing in the US, but he owned the crown jewel of the CART series and had no say in how things were being run. It&#39;s a simple power struggle (or a desire to control one&#39;s own destiny) in both cases.

Although CFR RE Rick Balderson told me face-to-face at the 2007 Jekyll meetings that it&#39;s much ado about nothing, let&#39;s suppose CFR DOES split off from SEDIV. How does that make things worse for the racers (or Atlanta Region)? Other than National drivers, there aren&#39;t that many racers that leave the state of Florida now except for those "special" events like the SIC and the ARRC (and perhaps Barber now that it&#39;s back on the schedule). I would suggest that even MORE Florida National drivers would attend out-of-Florida National races because they&#39;d now get credit for their two allowed OOD events without having to drive 18 hours to Texas, CenDiv or Summud Point. Some changes to the SARRC rules would be required should CFR continue to want to play, but removing the scheduling conflict rules would probably make even MORE weekends available to the racer. And the downside to this is...?

At this point in time, I&#39;m not aware of any proposals on the table (or even being discussed) to further limit the number of races any region can host. Should any come up for discussion in the future, I will contiue to express my opposition to my RE. I&#39;m also willing to wait out the current discussions going on within CFR. Regardless of the outcome of all this, SEDIV, Atlanta Region and NCR will survive. Will it change? Certainly. Is change a bad thing? Absolutely not. Change is not a nuisance, it&#39;s a fact of life.

And Matt - although there&#39;s no chance you&#39;ll change my mind and I&#39;m sure I haven&#39;t changed yours, I&#39;m equally sure that you&#39;ll continue to flail on this issue until your last breath. What I CANNOT figure out is why you haven&#39;t connected the dots and put Barry Hair in the middle of the current uprising in the NARRC series. B)

lateapex911
04-18-2007, 10:17 AM
And Matt - although there&#39;s no chance you&#39;ll change my mind and I&#39;m sure I haven&#39;t changed yours, I&#39;m equally sure that you&#39;ll continue to flail on this issue until your last breath. ....... [/b]

LOL, you don&#39;t know Matt that well....there are PLENTY of other silly things that Matt will get all hot and bothered before his last breath expires. Take a trip on the interenet wayback machine and visit the old Prod site someday. You&#39;ll see Matt demanding resignations from people because they simply didn&#39;t respond to his internet bleatings and his facts that came from "sources I can&#39;t divulge"....

This is just the "scandal of the month"...I&#39;m sure there will be more laughs down the road.

And Matt, really, what is it about autocrossers that you hate so much?? I&#39;ve rarely witnessed such deep seated anger for a subset like that. Have you ever turned a wheel on the pylon strewn course in Kansas??

loboracer
04-30-2007, 12:16 AM
So, do you still want to run an ECR in May. Come join Central Carolinas Region for a 2 hour 5 min run at CMP on May 27th.

Race is on Sunday, so you can be home on Monday for the holiday.

Chris Wire
04-30-2007, 09:14 AM
Monday morning update:

424 total entrants for the weekend

Group 1 enduro:
104 registered drivers
79 cars

Group 2 enduro:

65 registered drivers
51 cars

Still have until Wednesday before late registration charges apply!

Not the glory days of a few years ago when we started 105 cars in the big-bore group (including SpeedSource, Blackforest, ISC and others), but at this point it doesn&#39;t look like the lack of an ECR sanction has affected the car counts much.

Counting the days.........can&#39;t wait! B)