Entry Costs Comparison

[seckerich]

I would like feedback from people on the cost for entry to races in different areas of the country and the associated track rental cost. I do not want to turn this into a "I'm getting screwed by SCCA" but rather see what the cost per car is for our different race venues. Please limit it to cost for a single and double weekend with track rental cost. I understand all the variables involved with the other cost for a race weekend. I am trying to get a better idea of the base cost to continue to hold races. I will be more than willing to share this compiled information with other regions. A pm with track cost is no problem. Thanks in advance for your help.

[dickita15]

I think you need one more piece of data and that is average car counts. For a region putting on a race the fixed costs are huge and the variable costs are marginal. A swing as small as 20 cars can mean the difference to the region of success or failure.
One other small thing to keep in mind with track rent is some are all inclusive and some are al a carte

[gran racing]

Typically the date of the event will impact things. At least here in the NE, a June event will cost more than a November event.

[seckerich]

Thanks Dick. I understand the variables. I know one track we rent has all the fire, wrecker, and security included while others have list of options. I am more interested in the entry fees that regions are having to charge to make a profit. Would like the feedback on what the actual entry fee is. I have heard from as low as $150 to highs of $300 plus. Just a post on what you have to pay would be a start.

[dickita15]

LRP 2007 rent Friday and Saturday $53,000 all inclusive (top that ) 2007 entry fees probably 350-395
NHIS $8,800 per day plus insurance, ambulance and wreckers 2007 entry fees probably 200-280

[dj10]

LRP 2007 rent Friday and Saturday $53,000 all inclusive (top that ) 2007 entry fees probably 350-395
[/b]

Is it me or does this sound F&(!#% !!! This sounds highter than Mid Ohio. For some reason I'm thinking 35K for Mid Ohio per weekend. I'll check.
Steve, I asked Todd from the Central Div if he could respond to your requests.

[Bill Miller]

LRP 2007 rent Friday and Saturday $53,000 all inclusive (top that ) 2007 entry fees probably 350-395
NHIS $8,800 per day plus insurance, ambulance and wreckers 2007 entry fees probably 200-280
[/b]

Almost $400 for a Regional AND you have to take a day (an extra day?) off work? :blink:

[erlrich]

LRP 2007 rent Friday and Saturday $53,000 all inclusive (top that ) 2007 entry fees probably 350-395
[/b]

Holy spit, batman, is that for a single race?!?!? I guess LRP just got moved to the bottom of my "must-race" tracks.

IIRC, both of the MARRS doubles, at SP and VIR, were only just over $300 in '06. We've been informed the fees for a single regional at SPR will be going from $195 last year to $225 this year, so I'm guessing the Labor Day double will probably go up proportionally. I have no idea what we pay SP for a weekend.

[dj10]

Holy spit, batman, is that for a single race?!?!? I guess LRP just got moved to the bottom of my "must-race" tracks.
[/b]



If I were the NE region I'd be moving all events to different tracks and I sure would move the NE Runoffs from LRP to Pocono. I also bet you'd get better attendents. Hell, Bridgehampton I sure would be a better track if it were open. Maybe that amount 350 to 395 is in Pecos? :D

[Bill Miller]

Holy spit, batman, is that for a single race?!?!? I guess LRP just got moved to the bottom of my "must-race" tracks.

IIRC, both of the MARRS doubles, at SP and VIR, were only just over $300 in '06. We've been informed the fees for a single regional at SPR will be going from $195 last year to $225 this year, so I'm guessing the Labor Day double will probably go up proportionally. I have no idea what we pay SP for a weekend.
[/b]

A 15% increase? What are you getting for that extra $30? And IIRC, that's more than they gone up, in total, since 2000.

[dickita15]

If I were the NE region I'd be moving all events to different tracks and I sure would move the NE Runoffs from LRP to Pocono. I also bet you'd get better attendents. Hell, Bridgehampton I sure would be a better track if it were open. Maybe that amount 350 to 395 is in Pecos? :D
[/b]

well you would think so but dates are hard to come by up here and poccono does not draw the cars.

[lateapex911]

If I were the NE region I'd be moving all events to different tracks and I sure would move the NE Runoffs from LRP to Pocono. I also bet you'd get better attendents. Hell, Bridgehampton I sure would be a better track if it were open. Maybe that amount 350 to 395 is in Pecos? :D

[/b]

Well, New England Region is what, the 2nd largest Region in the country? Meaning: Lots of members, lots of racers. Lets say the "average NER guy lives a bit west of Boston. That makes a tow to pocono a REALLY long proposition, esp as he has to get near NYC on a Friday afternoon. And lots of guys just can't tow 6 hrs each way to such a crappy destination..their wives and families just say no.

So, if NER were to race in Pocono, it would add roughly 6 hours to the average tow, and cost almost $100 in gas.....and piss off already semi intolerant families, and so on.

Then, we have to remember that Pocono SUCKS! On ALL fronts.

So, Lime Rock is exercising it's muscles and charging what the market will bear. If WE don't take the dates, they WILL sell out to BMWCCA, PCA, Audi club, Trackmasters, Emra, SCDA, and on and on.

Yup, it sucks, What is NER doing? Shifting some races to NHIS. To folks like me in the NYC area, thats not attractive...long tow, and while it's better than Pocono, it still sucks compared to WGI, LRP, RA, VIR, etc. As a result, this year I'll actually look to toher events, like the Mid Ohio event, WGI, Road Atlanta, and ViR

What else can we do? Well, for a number of years, NER has been searching for a site to build it's own track, and things are progressing nicely, at last. I know that all the permits aren't approved yet, but the town is positive and things are moving along. It's a huge undertaking, but the region MUST be proactive if it wants to race in 5 or 10 years.





A 15% increase? What are you getting for that extra $30? And IIRC, that's more than they gone up, in total, since 2000.

[/b]

Ummm...they're getting to race.

Things cost more, for one thing, and there are more participants vying for the same dates for another.

[erlrich]

A 15% increase? What are you getting for that extra $30? And IIRC, that's more than they gone up, in total, since 2000.

[/b]

Bill - Gregg and the others on the comp committee are working on getting a more detailed breakdown of the increase, but the following reasons were given when they asked: $3-5 for an included Sat. night dinner. Essentially the "worker dinner" becomes a dinner for everyone.Oh, and Steve I apologize for the highjack - we should probably start another thread if we want to discuss this one further.

[seckerich]

No need to apologise--this is exactly what kind of information I was looking for. I am working hard in our region (CCR) to keep cost in line and still provide plenty of track time for the dollar. It has been a real eye opener to see the increase in costs for a race weekend compared to just last year. I do not want to see people stop racing because we reach the point they can no longer justify the expense. Thanks to all for the input so far.

[Bill Miller]

Bill - Gregg and the others on the comp committee are working on getting a more detailed breakdown of the increase, but the following reasons were given when they asked: $3-5 for an included Sat. night dinner. Essentially the "worker dinner" becomes a dinner for everyone.Oh, and Steve I apologize for the highjack - we should probably start another thread if we want to discuss this one further.
[/b]

Thanks Earl. While I haven't compiled the numbers for '06, IIRC, the average car count for the '04 or '05 season was ~250 cars per event for the races held at Summit Point. That works out to an extra $7500/year. Or, if you look at it another way, $30 x 6 (number of weekends at SP) = $180. That's almost one extra entry fee.

Don't even want to get into the forced subsidizing of the workers, or the mandatory meal fee.

As a side note about the '07 MARRS schedule, I noticed that the Labor Day event is listed as a single-sanction event (and is no longer called a double). What's up w/ that? The Labor Day double has been a SP tradition for as long as I can remember.

[erlrich]

Don't even want to get into the forced subsidizing of the workers, or the mandatory meal fee.[/b]I know, and while nobody has an issue with helping out the workers, I think the concensus was that this will probably hurt the voluntary donations a lot of us used to add to our entry fees.



As a side note about the '07 MARRS schedule, I noticed that the Labor Day event is listed as a single-sanction event (and is no longer called a double). What's up w/ that? The Labor Day double has been a SP tradition for as long as I can remember. [/b] Labor Day will still be a double, but it will be held under one sanction number. I believe the primary reason this was done was to discourage the guys who only come out for this one weekend to retain their licenses.

[Andy Bettencourt]

A little more on LRP - expensive? Heck yes. But although some races are singles, they are mostly two-day singles - so cost per minute of track time isn't THAT outrageous. Best value is a $220 Double at NHIS.

Pocono is a horrible track. It's a 5-turn flat track connected by two rediculous straights.

[AntonioGG]

You guys need to include expected # of entries and avg. # of entries. As Dick Patullo mentioned above, a small number of racers can swing the event quite a bit.

IIRC Texas World Speedway is ~$20k (for SCCA, I'm convinced other clubs get in cheaper IMHO) including wreckers/ambulances for a weekend (2 days). So $10k per day. For the double national this weekend (Friday practice) our entry will be $400 for both races roughly. I don't have the details on this one but we get anywhere between 150-200 entries for a double.

A regional 2 day single sanction event is much cheaper. Same track cost but lower sanction fees at $285 regular entry or $245 early discount (I forgot the distribution of early/late assumed). We have very low regional attendance in this division so the assumed number is 110-120 and we hit just about that every year. One year in fact the race was break-even and we made $1300 on merchandise sales (t-shirts, region stuff, etc.)

For other tracks like MSR Cresson I hear it's $5k/day + ambulances/wreckers so I have no idea how much that costs. For the double regional in January (high risk of bad weather) they assumed 100-110 drivers IIRC, so the entry was pricey for a double regional at $335. The weather was bad for 2 weeks prior so I think they ended up with 30 cancellations and about 70-75 entries.

Finally, the 2.4 Mile MSR Houston track and Houston region have some kind of arrangement and pretty sweet price (no clue what it is) so their entry for the double national last month was $320 or so. I don't know how many entries they assumed or got to be honest, but I believe ~150 IIRC.

[tnord]

Single Regional at HPT at the end of the month is $285. i was planning on racing this weekend, but changed my mind. i'm not looking forward to what the double regional entry is.

double regionals at MAM in omaha were $275 last year iirc.

we do lots of regional/nationals and i think an entry for that is like $15 higher than a double regional.

[TAC]

Mid-Ohio will keep the same weekend rental cost as last year $32,000 all inclusive. But has added a clause in their contract this year for damage to the track surface as well as barriers and catch fencing. Thank goodness SCCA competition insurance covers the extras.
There were four Dbl. Regionals at Mid-Ohio last year. The range was $ 275 - $290 entry fee for the standard 80 - 90 minutes of track time. Most of the weekends lost money due to a marked drop off in attendance. So general thought is $300 and slightly above will be the standard entry fee for a Dbl. Regional weekend this year.

The Cincinnati Event this year will feature 150 minutes of track time for the weekend and stay within the general train of thought.

Todd C.
Great Lakes Division
Cincinnati Race Chair

[Bill Miller]

I know, and while nobody has an issue with helping out the workers, I think the concensus was that this will probably hurt the voluntary donations a lot of us used to add to our entry fees.

Labor Day will still be a double, but it will be held under one sanction number. I believe the primary reason this was done was to discourage the guys who only come out for this one weekend to retain their licenses.
[/b]


That's what I was thinking Earl. I always kicked in an extra $10 or $20 to the worker fund. And while the things I'm about to say may sound like worker-bashing, they are anything but that. It just seems to me, if you're paying for people's membership dues, and feeding them at the track, they start becoming less volunteers and more paid staff.

As far as running two races over a 3-day event, under one sanction, there's all kinds of implications to that one. The first thing that comes to mind is that the cost should actually go down from last year, since they're not paying for the second sanction. And what does it matter if people only decide to race that one weekend all year? National racers have been getting away w/ running 3 or 4 weekends just to 'go to the show' for years. Why would you want those people to potentially spend their money elsewhere (e.g. Nelson dbl, Pocono dbl)? I just don't get that one. And how do you handle the folks that only want to run one day? I would imagine that they have to declare which race gets the sanction number. Gotta wonder about insurance coverage too, since one of those races will not be an SCCA-sanctioned race, will the WDCR have to get additional insurance?


Ummm...they're getting to race.

Things cost more, for one thing, and there are more participants vying for the same dates for another.[/b]

Is that how you look at it Jake? Everybody should just roll over and say 'thank you, may I have another'?

Andy,

I agree, Pocono is not much of a track, and the track mgmt. really could care less about the SCCA.

[dj10]

Well, New England Region is what, the 2nd largest Region in the country? Meaning: Lots of members, lots of racers. Lets say the "average NER guy lives a bit west of Boston. That makes a tow to pocono a REALLY long proposition, esp as he has to get near NYC on a Friday afternoon. And lots of guys just can't tow 6 hrs each way to such a crappy destination..their wives and families just say no.

So, if NER were to race in Pocono, it would add roughly 6 hours to the average tow, and cost almost $100 in gas.....and piss off already semi intolerant families, and so on.

Then, we have to remember that Pocono SUCKS! On ALL fronts.

So, Lime Rock is exercising it's muscles and charging what the market will bear. If WE don't take the dates, they WILL sell out to BMWCCA, PCA, Audi club, Trackmasters, Emra, SCDA, and on and on.

Yup, it sucks, What is NER doing? Shifting some races to NHIS. To folks like me in the NYC area, thats not attractive...long tow, and while it's better than Pocono, it still sucks compared to WGI, LRP, RA, VIR, etc. As a result, this year I'll actually look to toher events, like the Mid Ohio event, WGI, Road Atlanta, and ViR

What else can we do? Well, for a number of years, NER has been searching for a site to build it's own track, and things are progressing nicely, at last. I know that all the permits aren't approved yet, but the town is positive and things are moving along. It's a huge undertaking, but the region MUST be proactive if it wants to race in 5 or 10 years.
[/b]

Damn, I forgot how bad Pocono was, I haven't been there in 25 years since I raced my TZ250. I guess or just took it for granted how many tracks and great tracks I have around me. Like the oil company's, LRP is taking advantage of the NE people, I hate that!!! Summit Point might be a track to go to for you guys? It should be a shorter trip than WGI, I would think.

I don't want to hijack this thread any more. I do feel bad you you NE guys.



Todd, thanks for posting.

[fastbenz]

Bill - Gregg and the others on the comp committee are working on getting a more detailed breakdown of the increase, but the following reasons were given when they asked:[list]
Contribution to a fund designed to reimburse dedicated volunteers who work a majority of region events for their yearly SCCA membership dues
[font=sans-serif][size=2]$3-5 for an included Sat. night dinner. Essentially the "worker dinner" becomes a dinner for everyone[/b]


I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit !

[Andy Bettencourt]

Don't feel bad Dan! An extra $50-$60 per event for a few events is OK until we get ourt track up and running (insert knock on wood). NHIS has been SO good to us, WGI event on the schedule and a Double at Pocono. While cost IS a factor, figure an extra $200 max to run LRP for the whole year. Wash that into your annual budget and it isn't a deal breaker for most.

Now if/when PMP (http://www.palmermotorsportspark.com/) comes on line, things will change - LRP will either lower prices or we will go there WAY less.







I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing.[/b]

No workers - no race. Some Regions have incentives to ensure full corners.


Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? [/b]

The fun we have. We CHOOSE to waste our money on the money-pit of a sport. If you aren't having enough fun, try something else.

[TAC]

The subject of Race volunteers is a difficult one. As the number of tracks and events have grown they are competing for an ever shrinking volunteer pool. I personally work corners 24 days a year and am constantly bombarded with e-mails begging me to volunteer more. So, most regions find it a necessity to reimburse volunteers if they want to have a race weekend.

[Bill Miller]

No workers - no race. Some Regions have incentives to ensure full corners.

[/b]


No Andy, no racers = no race. EMRA figured this out years ago. You want to run for championship points, you have to work events. WDCR requires people that want to get credit for the races on their novice book to work events.


If you aren't having enough fun, try something else.[/b]

And you could make that very same comment to the workers.

This is really a case of the tail wagging the dog.

[erlrich]

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit ! [/b]

I'm guessing this is a spoof, right? You can't be serious.

[lateapex911]

Is that how you look at it Jake? Everybody should just roll over and say 'thank you, may I have another'?

[/b]

Well, Bill, that's not exactly what I said, but....it is pretty simple really. You referenced 2000...in the last 7 years, does it not make sense that costs have gone up?? The track pays more taxes, more overhead costs (fuel, etc), has more staffing expenses, and insurance, the region has greater expenses as well in staging the race.

Tracks have found (I've seen a general trend here) that SCCA isn't the only game in town, and the other games are far more preferable. Renting the track to the Ferrari club, or the Porsche club, or any of the Drivers Ed clubs results in far less hassles for the track, in terms of emergency stafing, track cleanup, track repair, facility repair, noise issues, etc. And as each year goes by, there are more independent clubs wanting dates.

So, tracks do whats best for them.....they raise rates to cover the hassles and expenses. Lime Rock discovered that they were losing money renting to SCCA vs the other clubs, when they sat down and really crunched the numbers. Now, maybe they weren't being "smart" in their procurement of insurance and other services, but be that as it may, two day weekend rental went form the $23K range a few years ago to $53K now, IIRC. Gulp.

While Lime Rock is in a unique position, being close to a major affluent area, and the NYC metro area, with lots of people with toys and disposable income, you can see other tracks trending in the same direction. Maybe rates at other tracks haven't doubled, but I bet most have increased to some degree, and all regions are seeing greater expenses.








I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit ! [/b]

Yea, you HAVE to be kidding, right??

One thing that's obvious, but never gets mentioned is freedom. As drivers, we show up when we want to. And when we get there, we do what we want when we want. Want to skip a session? Fine! Want to work on the car? go right ahead. Want to go spectate? Sure! Spectate whereever you want! Time to race? Have fun! When you're done, you can leave...or stay and watch.. It's up to you. Heck, if you want to go hang at a flag station for a session or two, you can do that too! Is it too cold? Hang in the heated motorhome, or car, or trailer. Raining? Stay under the canopy....

But the typical flagger gets there early AM, has a mandatory meeting, gets loaded into a truck, driven to a corner ...not of his choosing, and paired with either 0, 2 or 2 other people, ...not of his choosng, and then spends the morning looking up, or down track. Then back in the truck, rush in for lunch, stand in line, eat, then back to do it again. In the sun, the rain, the wind, even the occasional snow. Somedays they might get to pick the corner, or their corner buddies, but not always.

Now, who has it better.???

[dj10]

Andy, I don't feel bad about the extra money you have to pay at LRP as much as I fell bad that you NE guys don't have a lot of tracks to choose from that are close to you. I live 40 miles SE of Pittsburgh and I have 3 tracks within 3 hrs of me, Summit Point, Beaver Run & Nelson Ledges. Mid Ohio & Watkins Glenn are with in 5 hrs. Geographically speaking, I though Summit Point would be another option where you NE guys could race.

Jake, as for fastbenz's comments on workers, this guy better not forget about the workers that are injured and killed trying to help us drivers! Where's the guy's head is at (actually I think I know)!?!? There like pilots, 99% boredom with 1% sheer terror! Our workers are like our militiary, where would we be with out them! Workers should come 1st all the time.

[jjjanos]

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit ![/b]

Well, we always could directly pay someone to do these things. I'm guessing somewhere around 70-75 bodies to replace all of the volunteers at $85-$100/day, we're looking at something around $7000-$7500 or about $25/entry (250 entries). Of course, quality would go down. Forget blue flags. Forget hot pulls. Forget seeing a friendly face popping their head into window as you hang upside down. Forget someone knowing that your car always smokes the first 2 laps. Forget having someone on the grid who checks your chin strap because they actually want you to be safe.

Then again, you always could volunteer on race weekends and get credit towards membership reimbursements. I'm pretty certain that grid and pit would welcome help on a part-time basis. I bet F&C would love the extra body too.

We are having a school on the 24-25. It would be a perfect time to learn your 2007 speciality.

[seckerich]

Well, we always could directly pay someone to do these things. I'm guessing somewhere around 70-75 bodies to replace all of the volunteers at $85-$100/day, we're looking at something around $7000-$7500 or about $25/entry (250 entries). Of course, quality would go down. Forget blue flags. Forget hot pulls. Forget seeing a friendly face popping their head into window as you hang upside down. Forget someone knowing that your car always smokes the first 2 laps. Forget having someone on the grid who checks your chin strap because they actually want you to be safe.

Then again, you always could volunteer on race weekends and get credit towards membership reimbursements. I'm pretty certain that grid and pit would welcome help on a part-time basis. I bet F&C would love the extra body too.

We are having a school on the 24-25. It would be a perfect time to learn your 2007 speciality.
[/b]
You are spot on with this post. It would cost the average racer at our events an extra $40 on every entrant to pay for just the minimum workers to hold an event. The extra $10-$20 to cover the worker expenses is a bargain. Not to mention the talent these people bring to the table.

[charrbq]

Antonio,
From what I've been told by some people who should know, Houston Region has a VERY significant monetary investment in MSRH. I don't know what is included in the money spent, or the rental fee, but I'm sure it helps on the bottom line.

Andy,
I've got some mixed opinions on the worker fund thing. I agree with you that the workers are there for the same kind of fun that the drivers are. I work grid and attempt to race, too. (not on the same weekends, though). I'd lie to say that I enjoy working more than driving, but I do really enjoy working the races. We sometimes get stuck with people that we don't really enjoy being with, as on a corner, but it's never that bad. I've endured horrible freezing wind, blinding downpours, insufferable heat, flu, sunburn, indignant, arrogant drivers and crew, high speed lunches, etc. while working, but I've always enjoyed it.
Workers work because they enjoy it...same as drivers. No one makes us.

I always refer back a few years ago to the Champ Car race at Texas Motor Speedway that never happened. Tickets were sold and the workers were at the track when the announcement was made that the drivers felt that the course was unsafe at the speeds they were attaining, and the race was cancelled. It kind of shoots a hole in the " without the workers, there would be no race" theory. While being true, it's not the only side of the coin.
SOWDIV is, by comparison to other divisions, a weak one in terms of tracks, racing regions, and participation. The SCCA is only one of many sanctioning organizations that demand time from workers. As a result, they have a lot more opportunities to get their working fix than we, as racers, have to get ours. Some tracks pay the workers as much as $75-$100 per day, per person to waive a flag or whatever. Of course, that usually comes out of entry fees, but that's something I'm not privy to. The SCCA puts a $10 surcharge on entries to cover a worker fund. This fund is distributed in the form of coupons to all the workers (one/day) and can be redeemed for a number of things from Koozies to membership to gas to motel rooms. I've never redeemed mine, so I'm not sure of all the goodies.
My point is, why not? If it means that I pony up ten bones to help encourage workers to be at a track that I want to race at...big deal. When it comes to a race weekend, I can lose that much in change. If I had to come up with a hundred, that's a different deal. But whether I work or race, the money for the gas, the motel, most of the food, etc. still comes from my hip pocket. And don't think that driving six hours to the closest track to work is cheap.

We're all there to have a good time, whether we work or race. Without one another, we might as well stay home and watch championship poker on ESPN.

[Racerlinn]

From the distinct opposite end of LRP / MO spectrum, our track costs in Indy Region per weekend at IRP / O'Reilly Raceway Park (be it a Double Regional or National) run in the realm of $15k per weekend, all inclusive, but this will be going up in 2008 as we made a deal a couple years ago to pay $25k for track resurfacing in exchange for some free track rental and no increase in fixed costs thru the 2007 season. We also see about $9k in other weekend costs (sanction, insurance, food, etc.) depending on car counts.
Our car counts are low in comparison to most race weekends and we are very happy if we reach 100 cars for a Double Regional so that we have a chance of breaking even. Our entry fees are $250.00 per standard Double Regional weekend (1 driver, 1 car, 2 days).
We also have a Worker Dues program where the workers receive credit against their SCCA membership renewal dependant upon the number of days they work at the track during the season. It was well received last season and we are doing it again next season.
My guess is "fastbenz" has never worked an event in his life. :(
And we do not see that many of our racers pony up the extra cash at registration for the worker fund, although we have had some extreme act's of graciousness by individual drivers that will donate cash or items specifically for workers. :birra:

[dickita15]

That is exactly the supply and demand equation that determines track rent. Two stories.

I was up in Portland for the Rose Cup an few years back and the RE of NW region was telling me about a regional they put on for 25 cars. I asked how they afforded that and he said it was a park and the rent was something like $1000.

Years before that I was at a national convention in Baltimore and there was a panel discussion on region track relations. One of the panelists was Jim Haynes, I think Jim was working for Road America then but he might have still been at Lime Rock. He was asked how tracks decided how much to charge for rent. He said he thinks about what a club can get for car count, what the entry fee will be, leaves the region a little profit and charges the rest for rent.

[bhudson]

And while the things I'm about to say may sound like worker-bashing, they are anything but that. It just seems to me, if you're paying for people's membership dues, and feeding them at the track, they start becoming less volunteers and more paid staff.
[/b]

Maybe I'm getting a little off subject - I know you don't mean to bash the workers and the only reason I read these forums is that I drove IT in a past life before setting different monetary priorities. Believe me - paying for lunch and dues for the workers at SCCA events doesn't even come close to the definition of paid staff. It's a bargain compared to what other organizations pay. For example, Porsche Club in Atlanta pays each worker $150 per weekend, plus a really nice event shirt. Many of the Atlanta Region volunteers also work for Road Atlanta for various other car clubs and motorcycle events for similar pay.

Compare that with the typical SCCA compensation. Atlanta Region provides lunch on Saturday, the Saturday social (to which drivers are also welcome) and a $20 Walmart card if you work both days. And to make sure Atlanta Region is allowed to use Road Atlanta, those same volunteers staff the vintage races and the Petit LeMans, but without the pay they can get from AMA events at the same track.

Under those circumstances, when track paid events coincide with SCCA club races, its SCCA that suffers.

I still have a lot of fun doing this, and I'm at a point in my life where the dues payments is not as much of a stuggle as it is for some volunteers. And you'll be happy to know that I am not one of those who advocates requiring that drivers work races to keep a license. I know you butter the bread, and it's really up to the organizing regions to use the resources generated by entry fees to find ways to attract and compensate the volunteer staff.

But I can tell you from personal experience - the view from behind the wheel of the slowest, most ill-prepared IT car on the track is much better than the view from the best flag station.

Bob Hudson
Atlanta Region Membership Chairman
National F&C/Divisional Steward

[CaptainWho]

But I can tell you from personal experience - the view from behind the wheel of the slowest, most ill-prepared IT car on the track is much better than the view from the best flag station.
[/b]

Can I get an "aaaaaamen!"? :happy204:

Edit: Wellll, unless that car is on fire or something. :D

[RacerBill]

Can I get an "aaaaaamen!"? :happy204:

Edit: Wellll, unless that car is on fire or something. :D
[/b]


aaaaaaaammmmmeeeeennnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :happy204: :happy204: :happy204:

:OLA: :023: :)

BTW I started with SCCA in T&S, F&C, Start, worked 18 years in Sound Control, Pits, and still work a couple of events a year at Start. I do think that is in the best interest of the club to show those that just volunteer that they are appreciated.

One thing that we can do that does not even cost anything is to watch our tempers around them, even when we are mad at ourselves! Remember, they are there so that we can have fun and be safe.

[fastbenz]

One thing that's obvious, but never gets mentioned is freedom. As drivers, we show up when we want to. And when we get there, we do what we want when we want. Want to skip a session? Fine! Want to work on the car? go right ahead. Want to go spectate? Sure! Spectate whereever you want! Time to race? Have fun! When you're done, you can leave...or stay and watch.. It's up to you. Heck, if you want to go hang at a flag station for a session or two, you can do that too! Is it too cold? Hang in the heated motorhome, or car, or trailer. Raining? Stay under the canopy....

But the typical flagger gets there early AM, has a mandatory meeting, gets loaded into a truck, driven to a corner ...not of his choosing, and paired with either 0, 2 or 2 other people, ...not of his choosng, and then spends the morning looking up, or down track. Then back in the truck, rush in for lunch, stand in line, eat, then back to do it again. In the sun, the rain, the wind, even the occasional snow. Somedays they might get to pick the corner, or their corner buddies, but not always.

Now, who has it better.???
[/b]

But the FACT is Jake that everybody is making their own choice of how they want to participate in this sport. :D Why can EMRA put on an event with just a hand full of workers ?

[seckerich]

But the FACT is Jake that everybody is making their own choice of how they want to participate in this sport. :D Why can EMRA put on an event with just a hand full of workers ?
[/b]
Because you do not have the minimum safety standards we have in place. If you have to ask this question you havent got a clue what happens behind the scenes. When you have problems you will be glad they were there to help you out. The workers I know are first class. :happy204:

[dickita15]

But the FACT is Jake that everybody is making their own choice of how they want to participate in this sport. :D Why can EMRA put on an event with just a hand full of workers ?
[/b]

as to the first part, if we want more and better workers we can make the choice more attactive.

as to the second part Steve got that right

[charrbq]

I've worked some SCCA events with people that have some strange personalities that I didn't enjoy being with, but every one of them took their job seriously and performed it to the best of their ability. I've also worked some events sanctioned by other organizations that were understaffed to the point of being substandard. If I have to cough up ten or twenty bucks extra to get the better worker staff out there, it doesn't bother me a bit.

When I come up on an incident, I'd rather see a corner worker with a flag than a camera.

[Doc Bro]

I've done about 30+ SCCA events and witnessed some big wrecks, with minimal injuries.

I've done 1 (one) EMRA event and watched someone get killed. I don't mean to slam EMRA, it may have been bad luck......but I haven't done another event with them.

I don't know if I agree with fastbenz's logic about putting on an event with a handful of workers.


.02


R

[lateapex911]

I just don't get this worker reimbursement thing. Who gives back to us drivers who foot the bill ?? Why is this region drawing a line in the membership ? I for one am sick of this are workers, officials & drivers members of different clubs ? This is bull shit ! [/b]

Wow, so either you're just a troll, or you really mean this.

How about a real name and location?

As to why is EMRA able to run an event with less workers?
Don't get me started...I've run EMRA events, and trust me sir, no offense to EMRA, (they are running a more casual event, and thats their intent), but the lack of staffing IS noticable and effects the event. I led my race for 3 laps until a black flag all, was demoted to 4th in the pits, and when I quesstioned the (one) grid girl, said "I don't know, thats where they think you belong....and theres not enough people for me go to figure it out, or find out why" and walked away. Um, no it wasn't "OK" and they had to go out of their way to pull me out of line and put me back. (I know a little about race operstions, and there was NO reason for me to be demoted..I had held the spot long before the yellow and black flags, made no questionable passes, they made a mistake, pure and simple)

And lets not even talk about my considering a mech protest that weekend for some obvious illegalities that resulted in real performance advantages. I could see where that would go, so I just kept my mouth shut and had fun.

Having ONE flagger at a corner is fine as long as nothing happens, but having a fully staffed corner is safer....thats just common sense.

Point being that staffing and event operation are much different than SCCA, and there are prices for that..

[fastbenz]

I've done about 30+ SCCA events and witnessed some big wrecks, with minimal injuries.

I've done 1 (one) EMRA event and watched someone get killed. I don't mean to slam EMRA, it may have been bad luck......but I haven't done another event with them.

I don't know if I agree with fastbenz's logic about putting on an event with a handful of workers.
.02
R
[/b]

So now when there is an accident it's the organizations fault ? Please. Is the death your referring to take place at Lime Rock a couple of years ago ? If so I'm sure A SCCA worker would have stepped out on the track and prevented that accident. I have raced in SCCA events with a handfull of workers. So you guys are saying that the more workers you have makes drivers drive safer ? Questions for all you smart guys; Do you think that there are any lazy, incompetent, overweight flaggers out there who could not sprint with a fire bottle for 10 yards without going into cardiac arrest ? :rolleyes:

[dickita15]

for christ sake, Rob says right in what you quoted that it was not thier fault but bad luck.

why don't you just crawl back under your rock

[lateapex911]

Wow, so either you're just a troll, or you really mean this.

How about a real name and location?
[/b]

Yup...a troll, and a pretty chickens$!t one at that...

(Oh, and yes, having three flaggers at a station DOES make it safer, all things being equal..It's just common sense...lacking in the benz poster, obviously)

[charrbq]

His name is David Kicak
[email protected]
315-422-0281

He is currently looking for a ride in some pretty serious endurance races. Says he has a bunch of experience.

I suppose he expects to have the corners, pits, rescue staff, etc. only partially manned as that's all that's needed.

[Bill Miller]

for christ sake, Rob says right in what you quoted that it was not thier fault but bad luck.

why don't you just crawl back under your rock
[/b]

Actually Dick, he said it may have been bad luck, implying that it may not have been.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Actually Dick, he said it may have been bad luck, implying that it may not have been. [/b]

Which, either way, doesn't specifically blame the organization - which was the point.

Drivers need workers Bill. Without them we don't race. That is the whole point. Without drivers, workers don't work you are right - but is that any skin off of their back? All that is in it for them is the pure love of the sport and the comroderie. It isn't the tail wagging the dog dude, it's looking at the situation from 10,000 feet and realizing that some areas just don't have the 'perfect' supply of workers and a need to figure out how to keep the pipeline full is a concern.

If it costs me an extra $25 per race to have workers, no brainer. Obviously there is a breaking point where drivers won't come. Each individual will have to decide what his/her threshold is if/when that time comes.

[gran racing]

One idea that was mentioned is hiring workers for an event. That would get expensive quickly. Some have used a per day cost of $85 - $100 to obtain workers. That number seems awefully low if they are actually trained workers. They day is longer than 8 hours, so right there that brings the hourly rate to under $10 / hour. Would there be overtime involved? What about benefits? When you start to add up how much is saved in salary expenses, it is pretty amazing. So what if a part of my entry fee goes to workers? Maybe it buys them lunch, helps pay for transportation to the event, their membership fee, whatever. Without them, entry fees would be much and thus the events' entry fees would rise accordingly. Take a look at other successful organizations that rely upon volunteers to do their business. People can volunteer and still be taken care of, infact that is key to get them to keep on coming back.

[CRXsi]

Where I race we are suffering a severe shortage of marshals...I can honestly say that without them we can't race! We did experience that a year or two ago where there weren't enough marshals to man the corners and all of us were in our cars at pre-grid...we waited in our cars at pre-grid for roughly 45min while race control scrambled to find crews and other people at the track who would go out to corners so that they could release us. Pretty frustrating when you've paid the money but can't play. If it wasn't for drivers marshals wouldn't come to the track but they would find something else they were passionate about to do. Us drivers...what's our passion? Playing poker, playing at the zoo...No! It's RACING!

Anyways trying to keep the thread on track but hijack it at the same time. The cost's at Race City in Calgary per driver is $350(Canadian) for a 2 day weekend. The field is roughly 40+ cars (sedans) with separate sessions for Vintage and open wheel. Huge track time for the weekend for the driver. usually we see roughly 3-4 20-30min sprints, 1 1-2hrs endurance race (if you can call 1-2 hrs and endurance) as well as practice both days and of course qualifying on Saturday. We usually hold a social BBQ or something at the track on Saturday evening for the marshals and drivers to socialize and keep the warm fuzzy feeling between the 2 party's . Many sponsors buck up items for door prizes for the marshals and there is usually 1 door prize for the drivers. Last year we even had West Jet buck up some airline tickets at each event. Marshals generally walk away from every event with a few things such as a event t-shirt, hat, umbrella, folding chair or something.

I am not certain of the expenses associated to rent the track but I could find out roughly if enough parties were interested...keeping in mind that Race City is not as high quality a venues as some others but none the less an OK track to race at with continuous improvements happening year by year. Keep in mind that SCCA licenses are also recognized by our region (WCMA)

Now back the problem of marshals. What have other areas found to work at attracting and retaining marshals...does this $20 fee seem to work? Are there other methods being used? We try to use the BBQ and door prizes and freebies. I like the thought of small financial compensation especially for those from out of town to help with fuel, accommodations and food....but is it working or enough... Just looking for ideas on how we can make it better.

[Joe Harlan]

I have not read all 3 pages of this ugly thread, I will say this though. You can't have races without race cars and as costs continue to increase car numbers will continue to drop. You do need workers at races also but please remember workers are there for a hobby just as much as the rest of us. There needs to be a balance. If we need to give away memberships to have workers then we should do that but those memberships should have no voting rights. I also feel that the largest problem with getting workers is exactly the same problem with getting drivers adn that is recruiting. This club does nothing to market itself to anyone other than itself. The money we spend on sports car magazine is obscene and the information in the magazine is really only going to current SCCA members. We pay for Pro racing to exist and yet in an hour race you hardly ever hear about SCCA the organization or how to become part of it. We spend more money on the SCCA university but what does it do? Why not turn some of these worthless programs into a marketing budget that would gain new members for a worker base. Why not create a program that would allow college kids to gain elective credits by working in specialty areas such as E-crew ect? There are lots of whys and lots of people to blame for most of the problems of the club. But you need to first look in the mirror and ask yourself what you have done lately to solve any of the problems. Start with the easy one first...did you vote in the last election? David is not a bad guy, he believes as many that the club has lost sight of why we are here, He as many others (me included) presents it in a fairly coarse.

[seckerich]

The debate about who is more important is not the intention of this thread. Thanks to all who have provided so much useful information. The amount of time, money, and logistics involved in a single race weekend is amazing. Regardless of how we got to where we are today we must face the fact that all the costs associated with racing are getting way out of hand. There is a lot of competition for peoples time and money (workers included) and we must find ways to give our customer (the racer) more for the money. That cost from National are way out of line is a given. I don't even want to get into the insurance debate here. I appreciate the PM's with some great info and suggestions. Please save the worker discussions for another thread. :dead_horse:

[tnord]

i'm with you on some things Joe, but not all, not as much as i was on the ECU issue.


entry fee's keep going up, as i think we're up about $40 in entry fees in the 3 years i've been around. can't keep that up for long before people say "screw this, i'm buying a boat." i think you have to keep entry fees below $300 for a double for average people to consider racing financially feasable.

i don't think we pay pro racing to exist, didn't they make about $100k last year?

i agree that SCCA sucks at recruiting though. this year i think it was our RE (Dale Smith KC Region) created a new position for a worker retention/recruitment chair for the division, and we got one of our divisions best race chairs (Jennifer Igou) to take on this role. hopefully this will help.

i'm also optimistic about the new "street survivors" series ability to recruit new members as it's essentially recruiting both high school kids and their parents. and from what we heard from national at a presentation last week, there's a long line of people waiting to sign up.

as was said, SCCA seriously lacks in this area, but i at least see some prospects on the horizon that may help the situation.

[Andy Bettencourt]

i don't think we pay pro racing to exist, didn't they make about $100k last year?

[/b] OMG! No. Pro has been a loser for years now. It has a new man in charge and he has been tasked with turning it around. If it doesn't, it's gone. Pro just got it's last 'loan' from the coffers...lets hope they do a good job with it.

Back on topic.

[Joe Harlan]

OMG! No. Pro has been a loser for years now. It has a new man in charge and he has been tasked with turning it around. If it doesn't, it's gone. Pro just got it's last 'loan' from the coffers...lets hope they do a good job with it.

Back on topic.
[/b] Thanks Andy, You saved me from myself.... :)

[tnord]

i coulda swore i heard when they reported financials at national convention that the club made about $400k last year, of which $100k came from Pro.

anyone confirm this or set me straight who was at convention?

[kermode]

If we need to give away memberships to have workers then we should do that but those memberships should have no voting rights.
[/b]
The logical conclusion from your position is that an IT driver (remember Regional only) who recieves credits for working Nationals would have no voting rights.

[Joe Harlan]

The logical conclusion from your position is that an IT driver (remember Regional only) who recieves credits for working Nationals would have no voting rights.
[/b]
No the logical conclusion is if you want to pay to be a member then you should have a right to vote. All else is an associate membership. Why not give me a fee membership if I run all races held by my region? Please don't try to drag me into an antiworker situation here cause thats not the case. Why should anyone be compensated for participating in their hobby? If the participants don't want to play then they shouldn't. I will bet money that if we did a better job of recruiting we would not have a shortage of people.

[Anubis]

So how far are you willing to go to get rid of compensation? End of day social gets canceled? Remote tracks can no longer spring for hotel rooms so they can actually hold the event? Any type of worker re-imbursement programs are trashed? No more water at the track, we'll have to bring our own? How much would this knock off entry fees? Would it be worth it?

One thing about paid peeps, last year someone I knows brother was racing karts. He headed out to a corner to watch, and the guy was fast asleep. Being paid doesn't necessarily mean you'll get quality.

fastbenz, you want to rip on fatass workers... what about the fatass drivers we'll have to yank out of a car. The driving population is not filled with Mr./Mrs. Slim Goodbodies ya know.

[KelleyHux]

Since Travis mentioned MAM (MidAmerica Motorplex) - I thought I'd provide the facts for entry fees at that venue. I've been the Chief Registrar since August 2004. I don't have the details on the track rental costs.

Aug 2004 - Fun In the Sun Regional/National
Regional (Sat) - $195
IT Restricted Regl (Sun) - $195
National (Sun) - $230
Reg/Natl - $270
Regl/IT RR - $260
CoDriver - $60 (same car, same class - two drivers - one Sat/one Sun)

Total Entries - 69 R/N, 37 R/IT, 6 Regl Only, 21 Natl Only, 4 CoDrivers = 137

Oct 2004 - Octoberfest III Drivers School/Regional & Whoomah!! ™ Enduro
Drivers School - $185
Regional - $185
Enduro - $185
DS/Regl - $250
Regl/End - $250
CoDriver - $60
Enduro CoDriver - $45

Total Entries - 29 DS, 73 Regl, 22 Enduro = 124

Apr/Aug 2005
Regional (Sat) - $210
IT Restricted Regl (Sun) - $210
National (Sun) - $245
Reg/Natl - $280
Regl/IT RR - $275
CoDriver - $60 (same car, same class - two drivers - one Sat/one Sun)

April-
Total Entries - 7 Regl Only, 57 R/N, 30 Natl Only, 31 R/IT, 5 CoDrivers = 135

Aug -
Total Entries - 12 Regl Only, 53 R/N, 24 Natl Only, 32 R/IT, 7 CoDrivers = 128

Oct 2005 - Octoberfest IV Drivers School/Regional & Whoomah!! ™ Enduro
Drivers School - $200
Regional - $200
Enduro - $200
DS/Regl - $265
Regl/End - $265
DS/Regl/End - $330
CoDriver - $60
Enduro CoDriver - $45

Total Entries - 19 DS, 72 Regl, 36 Enduro = 127

Apr/Jul 2006
Regional (Sat) - $220
IT Restricted Regl (Sun) - $220
National (Sun) - $260
Reg/Natl - $300
Regl/IT RR - $285
CoDriver - $60 (same car, same class - two drivers - one Sat/one Sun)

April-
Total Entries - 10 Regl Only, 82 R/N, 28 Natl Only, 24 R/IT, 8 CoDrivers = 162
(Largest event held at MidAmerica Motorplex)

July -
Total Entries - 13 Regl Only, 75 R/N, 47 Natl Only, 11 R/IT, 4 CoDrivers = 151

Sept 2006 - Wild & Wacky Drivers School/Regional & Whoomah!! ™ Enduro
Drivers School - $210
Regional - $210
Enduro - $210
DS/Regl - $275
Regl/End - $275
DS/Regl/End - $340
CoDriver - $65

Total Entries - 22 DS, 65 Regl, 22 Enduro = 109

Keep in mind as you review these figures and get upset because the fees have risen - keep in mind that most regions try to operate on a break-even basis. Not only have sanction and insurance costs risen, the variety of costs needed for a weekend have risen as well - postage, printing, trophies, driver/worker goodies, Saturday night party fees, etc. The list is long. While race chairs do the best they can to control costs, certain expenses have just risen.

The Enduro was added to the Drivers School/Regional weekend to help that event not lose money. That goal was achieved in the years when the Spec Miatas weren't yet a national class. We were hampered in 2006 because we had to move out of October (end of season) into September (prior to RunOffs). Many of our enduro drivers went to the RunOffs. (MidAmerica is only about 180 miles from Heartland Park.)

The MVRG board has agreed to allow me to have on-line registration this year. :happy204: Unfortunately for the drivers, that may mean the cost will go up. Sorry guys - but many drivers wanted the option to pay by credit card, and this is the way you'll get it!

Now - to deviate just slightly "off-topic" - As a worker with over 30 years experience in a variety of specialties (I currently hold three licenses), it is expensive for me to volunteer my time at an event. Our budget doesn't allow any race car in our present, although my husband would dearly love one. We do what we can to help with the race organization. In that fashion, we are at least able to be involved in this fabulous sport.

I'm sorry that some folks feel they're not getting any "value" from having trained, licensed, experienced volunteers who staff the events. I know that I have made several wonderful friends in the driver ranks. Part of what we do, we do to help our friends enjoy their passion more safely.

Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"Worker Bee"
National F&C/National Registration
Sr Timing & Scoring

[seckerich]

Now that is a detailed report. Thanks Kelley.

[JIgou]

Thank you, Kelley!

Steve, take Kelley's numbers and figure that it costs MVRG around $13-$14k for track rental per weekend (it varies, as we pay on a per car/per day basis with no minimum, but even when we had a minimum I think we always exceeded it).

That number is for track rental ONLY - anything else we require is above and beyond that number.

Examples of the standard stuff:
Guard at the gate? Extra, hourly.
Overnight camping for everyone? Extra, flat fee.
Fire and ambulance were extra, by the hour
Extra Porta-johns: extra
Saturday night party? extra
And the list goes on, of course.


If you want to get more details on that stuff (I won't dump it all in here and bore everyone to tears), just drop me a note at [email protected].

Jarrod

[Wreckerboy]

I've done about 30+ SCCA events and witnessed some big wrecks, with minimal injuries.

I've done 1 (one) EMRA event and watched someone get killed. I don't mean to slam EMRA, it may have been bad luck......but I haven't done another event with them.

I don't know if I agree with fastbenz's logic about putting on an event with a handful of workers.
.02
R
[/b]

Okay, nothing personal taken here, but let's clear up a basic misconception... but first, my name is Rob Myles, and I am the EMRA Chief of Tech. I'm also a racer. I've worked nearly every EMRA event in the last 18 years. For the last three I have worked and driven and every EMRA event. It makes for a busy weekend.

I read this thread with interest because EMRA faces the same hellacious rental rates that NER does - we operate on largely the same turf. I came to the thread looking to learn how other groups and how racers feel about these things.

I am very aware of the terrible tragedy you witnessed that day at Lime Rock. And though you don't come out and say it, by implication the tragedy occurred because of a lack of workers, or the skill set of them.

Unless you have access to the accident report (that still hasn't been released) or a compleatly different set of facts than the ones I, as an "official EMRA muckety muck in charge of something or other" have, you would know that the worker staffing was not considered a cause by anybody or any official party connected to the event. And for the record, the session immediately prior to the incident was staffed with two people. The appropriate flags were displayed and several vehicles went through the incident area before the second, and fatal incident occurred.

Would we love to have more workers? Hell yes. Were the workers a contributing factor in the terrible incident? Not at all.

Rob Myles
EMRA Chief of Tech

[Wreckerboy]

As to why is EMRA able to run an event with less workers?

Don't get me started...I've run EMRA events, and trust me sir, no offense to EMRA, (they are running a more casual event, and thats their intent), but the lack of staffing IS noticable and effects the event. I led my race for 3 laps until a black flag all, was demoted to 4th in the pits, and when I quesstioned the (one) grid girl, said "I don't know, thats where they think you belong....and theres not enough people for me go to figure it out, or find out why" and walked away. Um, no it wasn't "OK" and they had to go out of their way to pull me out of line and put me back. (I know a little about race operstions, and there was NO reason for me to be demoted..I had held the spot long before the yellow and black flags, made no questionable passes, they made a mistake, pure and simple) [/b]

Jake, first, no offense is taken. I approach these things with an open mind, and feel that a healthy critique only benefits all of us. Are we perfect? Not even close.

First, perhaps it is our bad for not making EMRA restart policy in the event of a black flag all situation more clear in advance of the event. For that one, I'll take it on the chin, and apologize. For the record, EMRA policy in the event of a black flag all situation is to reset the field to the running order of the last green flag lap. That information comes to us directly from timing and scoring. We time electronically with strips as a backup. Also, for the record, we do discuss that policy at the driver's meetings at every event now because we have learned there is some confusion about it.

That "grid girl" to whom you refer is my wife, Jean, and she was following that policy. In fact, in all probability, I had given her that direction. I am not asking for special compensation because of who she is, I am just putting a name to the face for you.



And lets not even talk about my considering a mech protest that weekend for some obvious illegalities that resulted in real performance advantages. I could see where that would go, so I just kept my mouth shut and had fun.[/b]

Given the general tenor around here of "policing oneself" that is an interesting statement. If you saw "obvious illegalities" did you bring them to anyone's attention? Even if you didn't know where to find the Chief of Tech (moi), did you ask anybody how to deal with the issues you had concern about? I try to remain very approachable, and if you have a concern, am more than happy to discuss the matter with you at any time and to investigate the problem. More than once I have sat down with the EMRA Car Prep Guide and reviewed a concern with a driver. It's a shame, really, because know that I might have learned something interesting from the exchange. A driver can always file a protest in writing if need be, but if we can get things resolved informally before a race happens, all the better. I'm sorry you left the event with such a bad taste in your mouth.

As an example, I refer you to the EMRA night enduro at Summit Point last year. Some who post here attend that event. During the course of the weekend multiple competitors came to me with concerns about illegalities of other cars in the field. Some were legit, others stemmed from some misunderstanding of the EMRA rules. Ask anybody here what happens at the end of that event - all cars are impounded, and I made a point of walking the entire grid to spot check those issues. For example, all of the SM 1.8 guys had to show me their restrictor plates right then and there.

Rob Myles
EMRA Chief of Tech, etc.

[lateapex911]

. For the record, EMRA policy in the event of a black flag all situation is to reset the field to the running order of the last green flag lap. That information comes to us directly from timing and scoring. We time electronically with strips as a backup. Also, for the record, we do discuss that policy at the driver's meetings at every event now because we have learned there is some confusion about it.
[/b]

Rod, I'll be beif, as I don't want to sray off topic too far, and sorry to the original posater, but I don't want anyone to think that I have an issues with EMRA. I was aware of the policy, and it's pretty common, actually. But I had been leading for a number of laps, hence my confusion. And I could see she was trying hard and had LOTS to do.



Given the general tenor around here of "policing oneself" that is an interesting statement. If you saw "obvious illegalities" did you bring them to anyone's attention?

Rob Myles
EMRA Chief of Tech, etc. [/b]

Rob, it was one of those things that was obvious if you knew what to look for, so to speak, but rather invasive to prove, and after consideration, I decided it wasn't proper for someone that wasn't a regular runner to bring up, and it just didn't match the tenor of the event. Resolving it would have been a large task, well beyond the capacities of everyone involved, including myself, LOL. As I said, I decided I was there to have fun, and went out and did just that.

I merely brought it up to highlight that indeed it is difficult to run an event without staff. Staffing gives options that don't exist otherwise, and getting and keeping the staff is a critical aspect of an event, and needs to be accomodated for in some manner, which might include financial....adding to the expenses of the event, and therefore, the entry fee, all else being equal.

[Wreckerboy]

Rob, it was one of those things that was obvious if you knew what to look for, so to speak, but rather invasive to prove, and after consideration, I decided it wasn't proper for someone that wasn't a regular runner to bring up, and it just didn't match the tenor of the event. Resolving it would have been a large task, well beyond the capacities of everyone involved, including myself, LOL. As I said, I decided I was there to have fun, and went out and did just that.
[/b]

Thanks for the somewhat muddy clarification. Although what you saw might have been considered invasive, it still was a concern to you and may or may not have been legal. EMRA is run by racers for racers, and if you've got issues, questions, or concerns, please feel free to raise them. I don't care if you are a "regular runner" or a first time visitor, the last time I checked the rulebook we made no distinction like that. If you don't feel comfortable talking to me (it's my charming personality, I know) there are any number of EMRA types around you can speak with.

Either way, I would have appreciated knowing about it, both to address the issue with you, and for my own edification. In fact, I would welcome a PM from you regarding what you saw. (Contact me at wreckerboy at g mail dot com ) Any time I can learn something it's A Good Thing. As has been discussed here many times, the Tech inspector cannot be an expert on the minutia of all the cars out there. Heck, the "Protest Story' documents that very well. I freely admit that I concentrate on safety issues first and foremost because I'm no expert on the eleventy seven varieties of cars that .

But at least you had fun.

But back to the original topic - staffing can make or break an event, without question. When talking about an event like a small club race weekend, the sheer amount of manpower that goes into the preparation before the event and the execution during is amazing. I was at a NASA event at SP last fall and was amazed at the sheer numbers of staff they get - there must have been five people just working false grid alone. It certainly goes a long way to keeping stress levels manageable.

[tdw6974]

Just back from Glen region Comp board meeting. we where finalizing details for the 2 races the Glen region will have this year. The Fingerlakes Region will be doing the National event this year. The July sprints entry fee will be $240.00 last Year it was $225.00, The Last Chance Drivers school,Enduro and regional fees have been set. School will be $360.00, Enduro $360.00, and the Sunday regional will be $180.00 the regional race will go from 20 minutes plus one lap to 25 minutes plus one lap. Track rental and insurance costs are up from last year. The July sprint will be a NYSRRC,NERRC AND NARRC RACE. Marrs is going to nelson ledges for its other out of region race for 2007. There where several new classes to work into the schedule and still try to avoid overtime and the charge for the overtime. Tom Weaver :eclipsee_steering: