Here's where all the ITS E30s went...

[JeffYoung]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...815091535&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-385101642815091535&hl=en)

It's the new Spec miata! Holy cow that is a lot of cars.

[Knestis]

They have absolutely done a great job with that class. There were a bunch in the enduro, too. They aren't quite up to ITS specs but they seem to have the formula just about right, and it hasn't gotten out of control. Cars are generally kind of scruffy, though as you might expect from running that close. They used to have a slower class for the 318 and the crappy 325e thing but I believe they've scrapped it.

K

[JeffYoung]

Maybe that spec class is just "fringe" enough to keep the $$$ boys that kill other spec classes out.

Pretty impressive, I agree Kirk. That's a lot of cars, quick.

[charrbq]

True...I'm sure you can spend any amount you want to on the cars, but it might not really be cost productive to win. I've always heard a BMW is an expensive car to race, but I can't see it being that bad...just a little strange like all things German. At least, unless for some reason the factory took interest, you shouldn't have to spend $25G on a stock motor to run mid pack like SM. Could have some definite potential. :023:

[AntonioGG]

What's that saying? Those who forget history are bound to repeat it right?

I read the article in GRM about Spec E30 and they slammed Spec Miata by comparing an established very competitive class to one just starting out. They should have compared it to SM 7 years ago...or we can come back 5 years from now and compare Spec E30 to where SM is now.

[IPRESS]

AG is telling the truth. You can bet that just as any class develops the cost of this one will go up as more people try to run up front. SM may have a few warts, but it is still a ton of bang for your buck. Besides, any cars that close in performance will be scruffy after a few races. Especially club racers who do it as a hobby. It is probably a blast to run just like SM, but mistakes by someone will cause some damage nearly every race.
Opinions are just that, but SM is one of the best things club racing has had to hang it's hat on tha last seven years. Probably the same with IT 20 or so years ago. ( And IT seems to still be a really good thing for club racing ...STILL.) Maybe more folks will do like me and start in SM and "elevate" :D (thats for you AG) to IT! But just because I changed classes doesn't make me think something is wrong with SM. It is still a super place to race. Spec E30 looks fun too.

[AntonioGG]

Maybe more folks will do like me and start in SM and "elevate" :D (thats for you AG) to IT!
[/b]
Mac, I would run IT in a heartbeat if it were more competitive in this division. Look at you...you're going to Midiv and SEDIV to compete instead of racing around here. We're trying to build up IT and SRX7 by holding more attractive weekends (double regionals, or regional/enduro, or extended regionals). Lone Star was carrying the torch but with TWS up for sale...who knows what will happen next year.

[ccearlock]

That car #30 with the in-car camera absolutely blew by those other "spec" cars down every long straight. What is spec about the motors in that class? Yep, just like "spec" Miata. I like the idea in theory though... a spec class alternative to the Miatas.

[Knestis]

Spec is spec. Whether something that is supposed to be spec is WITHIN specs, is an issue for enforcement - which in our game generally means someone has to protest it.

An over-fast car isn't necessarily evidence of a cheat, and a cheat isn't an indictment of a rule set.

K

[lateapex911]

Right, that car looked to be well prepped, and I got the impression his starting position wasn't "normal"...and it looked greasy/wet, and drying.

He DID look to have the pull on lots of cars, but who's to say he was more "spec"...or they were "less" spec? Maybe the class is new, and lots of guys are just out there on stock and worn motors?

[ccearlock]

All good points and very well stated answers. However, to my comment regarding "Spec" Miata, I have always wondered why one can be had for $24,000 and is consistantly four to five seconds a lap faster than another Spec Miata that can be picked up for $8000. I'm just trying to understand how spec rules can be so wide open as to allow for that scenario. Some of it, as stated, is obviously age of the motor, the quality of driver, some of it is track setup and other legal factors. All that aside though, I don't understand how the "spec" rules can allow for that kind of variance to make one car so much more expensive and fast. Generally speaking, if it's spec class, isn't everyone supposed to have the same stuff?

To me, the best example we have of a true spec class is Spec Racer Ford. There does not seem to be the huge variance in car cost and correlating lap times. Are there more narrow rules that they follow, or is this just a better policed group? Sorry if this is kind of a hijack of this thread.

[JeffYoung]

Go to www.specmiata.com. Click on the forums, then "Spec Miata Garage." There are 9 or 10 threads, excellent reads, from a guy named Steve Schieffler I think. He tore down 3 SM "pro" motors. Some VERY interesting finds.

Let's just say that "spec miata" is not so "spec," and that there is a reason a top SM motor costs $6-8k.

If Spec E30 is even half as popular as SM, it will suffer from the same affliction.

[mattbatson]

Yeah, I really think the reason srf is so equal is the sealed motors.

If spec miata had sealed motors, it would be much more "fair" for those of us without thick wallets.

And yes, that "spec" bmw had a pretty substantial hp advantage over the guys he was passing. It isnt his fault. He just has the means to spend more money on his motor/car then his competition.
Personally, I wouldnt really savor a victory all that much with that kind of hp advantage. I dont know, kinda takes the fun out of it.

On the other hand, I understand the kind of hurdles/cost's involved with sealing motors.

It is just inevitable that you will have guys willing to spend big bucks to win a plastic trophy and bragging rights. I hold nothing against these guys...it just isnt me. I guess I dont want to win that bad (or cant afford to :P )
I'll just have to be happy tooling along in the lower half of mid pack until I win the lottery.

In the meantime, be sure to give me a wave as you go by on the straights :114:

[AntonioGG]

Some people also enjoy prepping their cars to the top level, just as some enjoy driving them that way.

Just in case any one was confused, I am not saying one class is better or worse, just that they have to be compared fairly. Jeff Young pretty much summed it up in one sentence. Do you think some of those guys that got smoked by the one guy won't be kicking prep up a notch now?

[leggwork]

the way I heard it explained is that the back of the pack was running flat out to catch up with the front of the pack for the start, the front guys slowed waiting for the green but he was still running flat out when the green dropped. The current "norm" in the class is to run the stock or a junkyard motor.
bruce




Right, that car looked to be well prepped, and I got the impression his starting position wasn't "normal"...and it looked greasy/wet, and drying.

He DID look to have the pull on lots of cars, but who's to say he was more "spec"...or they were "less" spec? Maybe the class is new, and lots of guys are just out there on stock and worn motors?
[/b]

[RSTPerformance]

looks like a great class, with fun cars!!! :023:

One thing SM has going for it... Competition just about every weekend just about everywhere all around the country... Other than SRF no other spec class has that to offer from what I know.

Raymond

[kbrewMR2]

the way I heard it explained is that the back of the pack was running flat out to catch up with the front of the pack for the start, the front guys slowed waiting for the green but he was still running flat out when the green dropped. The current "norm" in the class is to run the stock or a junkyard motor.
bruce
[/b]

thats the way I understand it too... you're a "cheating" bastard if you do a standard rebuild.. lol

[mlytle]

And yes, that "spec" bmw had a pretty substantial hp advantage over the guys he was passing. It isnt his fault. He just has the means to spend more money on his motor/car then his competition.
Personally, I wouldnt really savor a victory all that much with that kind of hp advantage. I dont know, kinda takes the fun out of it.

[/b]

he was a normal front runner that got gridded in the back of the pack for the race. the track was wet. some of the spec folks don't have multiple set of tire for different conditions. it wasn't all horsepower happening there.....

bmw cca is starting a spec e36 325/8 class this year. lower prep levels than IT. lots of interest already.

[tnord]

if they keep good car counts throughout this year, get even just a few reasonably serious drivers, and have a 20+ car championship at Mid-Ohio this year.....expect prep to explode over the next 2 years. not on the level SM blew up, but i'm pretty confident $ to compete is about to go up a notch.

i watched it happen in SM from the inside, i think we're watching it happen right now to Spec E30, and if IT goes national, we'll see it happen again.

[JLawton]

and if IT goes national, we'll see it happen again.
[/b]

Too late, it already happened in some areas......

See "NX2000 Dyno" thread............ ;)

[tnord]

Too late, it already happened in some areas......

See "NX2000 Dyno" thread............ ;)
[/b]

i'll have to respectfully disagree.

sure, there may be a couple people who are spending the money and time right now so that they really do get 100% out of the car. but i'm pretty sure i've even seen Amy say himself somewhere that he's still got room for more power. Andy may not be willing to venture into as gray of areas as others, as there is more power to be found in his car as well.

but even so.....even if there are a couple people getting 100% out of the car, there's going to be a big chunk of people who aren't now, but will if it goes national. which means you're going to have more people going faster, which makes the guys at the front spend $ to stay ahead, and the guys behind spend $ to keep up, etc etc etc.

there's plenty of $ to burn out there.

[cmaclean]

It's inevitable Spec E30 will go the exact same way as Spec Miata. Once it gets popular, the guys with money will come into the class for the "close competition" and destroy that close competition with expensively prepped cars. The little secret eventually gets out. It won't be long before some enterprising businessman/woman will launch www.spece30motors.com and sell well prepared and "tear-down-legal" Spec E30 BMW motors. The top guys will buy one to stay ahead of their competitors and so it goes. That's racing folks! I mean, do we know for sure that there aren't already Sunbelt motors in that class? The camera car was stupid fast compared to most of the other cars out there.

NASA have an opportunity to kill that right away with the engine claim rule. Lets learn from the missed opportunities of old.

[leggwork]

the cars are all dyno'd at events (well, so far at major events) so there is at least public visibility of what a car is doing. Rules on how a very well performing engine are handled are still gestating, but the current rules are clear on what engine changes are allowed.
cheers,
bruce



It's inevitable Spec E30 will go the exact same way as Spec Miata. Once it gets popular, the guys with money will come into the class for the "close competition" and destroy that close competition with expensively prepped cars. The little secret eventually gets out. It won't be long before some enterprising businessman/woman will launch www.spece30motors.com and sell well prepared and "tear-down-legal" Spec E30 BMW motors. The top guys will buy one to stay ahead of their competitors and so it goes. That's racing folks! I mean, do we know for sure that there aren't already Sunbelt motors in that class? The camera car was stupid fast compared to most of the other cars out there.

NASA have an opportunity to kill that right away with the engine claim rule. Lets learn from the missed opportunities of old.
[/b]

[spece30DRVR]

Wow I didn't think my video would make it over here haha.

Thanks for the compliments and I just wanted to comment on a couple of things. First off, our car has under 100k on it unlike many of the other cars racing. The car dynoed at 156 and almost all of the other cars were at about ~151hp. The motor has never been opened up for any reason and its just a tight motor. We do have a nice exhaust but it's within the guidlines i.e. it retains the factory header and x-pipe. It did look pretty fast at the start but I didn't lift at the kink when others did. It was wet and I was also on freshly shaved tires :) that I was planning on saving for the enduro. As far as the comment regarding people with money entering the series and building killer motors. Well the problem there is these motors don't really react to modifications very well without increasing the injector size and changing the fuel/timing maps. The ECU's are so easy to check it would be stupid to try and chip the car and race it. We have one guy that runs in the southeast division that rebuilt his motor and he made 156lb/ft or torque and 152hp. I really don't see this series allowing the rules creep that spe c miata has. Next year there will be greater exhaust restrictions and when those rules are in place we will change our exhaust to meet them. Another side note what you cannot see from the video is how close carter hunt in the yellow car is behind me the entire race I did not walk away from him on the straights. I'm not sure why or how I passed as many cars as I did on the first two laps. I just tried to drive a clean race and have a good time doing it. Spec e30 is growing every day and the people that are coming into the series have the same vision as the rest of us. I'm looking forward to the rest of the season.

cheers,
mike





And yes, that "spec" bmw had a pretty substantial hp advantage over the guys he was passing. It isnt his fault. He just has the means to spend more money on his motor/car then his competition.
Personally, I wouldnt really savor a victory all that much with that kind of hp advantage. I dont know, kinda takes the fun out of it.


[/b]


Substantial hp over the rest of the field? I'm not sure you can say that 5hp is a substantial amount of horsepower. ~2 psi in the right/wrong directon on a toyo RA1 will make a bigger difference on lap times than 5hp. And as far as spending money on the motor we spent $200 on the exhaust and we change the oil every two races. We adjust the valves ourselves. That's it, it's never been opened.

[tnord]

Well the problem there is these motors don't really react to modifications very well without increasing the injector size and changing the fuel/timing maps. The ECU's are so easy to check it would be stupid to try and chip the car and race it.
[/b]

when someone with the right combination of money and motivation comes along, they will find a way. what does "not very well" really mean anyway? that you only get 1hp from x modification? that 1hp will become increasingly more important as time goes on and people get more serious. the motor isn't the only place to make power either. do you guys have anything in place that would prevent the $1200 lightweight clutches like we saw in SM? rules to prevent REM finishing of the gearbox and r/p? how much mfg variance did BMW specify in parts such as valves, cams, pistons, etc?

i'm not trying to be critical, i'm just speaking from spending the 'explosive' years inside SM and watching all this happen.



I really don't see this series allowing the rules creep that spec miata has.
cheers,
mike
[/b]

SM really didn't have rules creep is the thing. the rules have been the same since day one for the most part. if anything, they've gotten more restrictive over the past 12mos. if your junkyard motors are making 156hp, i'd shoot for 170hp from a well 'assembled' one.

good junkyard SMs are in the 105-110hp range, with 120 being the benchmark for a good pro motor.

i think it's a GREAT class you guys have going, i'm just trying to warn you what will happen if the class continues to succeed (and it seems to have the momentum to do so). you guys need to take a GOOD HARD LOOK at how the rules are written and see where the holes are that would allow development.

:eclipsee_steering:

[spece30DRVR]

i think it's a GREAT class you guys have going, i'm just trying to warn you what will happen if the class continues to succeed (and it seems to have the momentum to do so). you guys need to take a GOOD HARD LOOK at how the rules are written and see where the holes are that would allow development.

:eclipsee_steering:
[/b]


I can dig that.

<mike>