An Education and Guide to the Protest Process

[gran racing]

Since we're still in the winter months, I might as well stir things up a bit. :D

We’ve often talked about how we are responsible for self-policing our classes, but many of us are intimidated by the protest process. This maybe caused by a lack of knowledge of how the process works, potential costs associated, feedback from others past experiences - et hmm, can you say “The Protest Story” thread? - among other things. I’ll openly admit that I fall into this category, but would like to learn more about the protest process just in case. In the past we’ve discussed other methods to address a potentially illegal car, but at some point protesting makes sense.

I would like to keep the majority of this discussion focused on protests regarding potential illegal parts on a racecar that would provide an unfair advantage versus driving conduct. Lets also leave silly stuff out like the infamous washer bottle, horn, or other similar items out of the discussion. My hope is that through this discussion, people such as myself can become a bit more educated on how to best approach the process, things that should be done / shouldn’t be done from people experiences, a basic idea of what the costs are for various items if the protested car is found legal, as well as other tips on how to conduct a successful protest. My goal with this is not to stir up a significant number of protests, but since it is up to us to self-police I do feel it is valuable for us to be familiar with the process.

For those of you who have never seen a protest form (from my understanding they are uniform from region to region), here is a synopsis of the section the protestor would complete:

“I, ______, Driver of Car # _____ Class _____ do hereby protest Driver of Car # _____ Class _____ Driver _____ or the decision/action of (Official) _______ I hereby charge violation of paragraph _____ of the Supplemental Regulations, specifically, or section ______ of the Supplemental Regulations, specifically _____.”

Later on the form… (If teardown is required, Bond will be set by the SOM & agreed to by all BEFORE work begins)

I’ve also included a link to the sections most pertinent to this discussion from the 2007 GCR Link (http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/videos/protest.pdf).

I personally have many questions, but will try to dive into this slowly. Here’s an easy one. The GCR states that “A protest against the validity of an entry or qualification and conformity to the rules of an entrant, driver, or car shall be lodged no later than one hour before the start of the race segment of a competition.”

So, if a person wants to get a better indication of whether another driver has some extra hidden power, it is not possible to lodge the protest after the race? It would be necessary to get this feeler done during qualification if timing permits (an hour before the start of the race). Sometimes cars obtain a sudden burst of power for specific events, then for other events they are down. I personally would want to try and get an idea of this before protesting, but it sounds like it would be difficult in many cases. Any recommendations on how best to approach this?

Here’s another section: Section 8.3.3 A. 5 – Verification of camshaft specifications
A complete description of the vehicle/engine combination should be included (i.e. make, model, year, VIN #, engine code, displacement, etc.)
A known stock example of the camshaft in question must be included with the protested camshaft.
An accurate description of the intake and exhaust valve arrangement relative to the # 1 cylinder is required.
The engine firing order and crankshaft rotation direction is required.
The cost of each camshaft test is $100. Provisions for shipping to and from the national office should be included in the bond.

I would imagine that it is necessary for the protestor to supply the above information? If that is true, who verifies that it is accurate?

Who obtains a stock example of the camshaft in question (I would have to imagine it would be the SOM of the vent)? Depending upon where this is purchased, I would imagine the cost could vary greatly. The purchase cost of the cam – is that included in the bond? (For example, an OEM camshaft for my car is just under $200.)

What might some of the additional costs associated with a bond to inspect a camshaft be, if there are any? (Necessary work to take the cam out, then re-install. Maybe twice; once for protested cam and another for an interim cam?) Would the protestor need to establish a bond to pay for two OEM cams – one for the protest and another to be used in the car being protested until the process is completed?

_____________

This may not be possible, but I’d really like to see some guidelines regarding the associated bond costs to protest various items.

If a person believes that a car has gained an unfair advantage, what methods can be used to determine how it is being done or at least narrow down the possible parts? Are there some parts that you would recommend inspection of?

[RacerBill]

Where's the 'can of worms' smilie when you need em!!!!

Dang, if we don't watch out, we'll have a set of rules that we can understand!!!

When you get tired of this thread, how about tackling the 'two total openings' phrases.

Seriously, Dave - thanks for having the courage to raise these questions.

[lateapex911]

Here's another section: Section 8.3.3 A. 5 – Verification of camshaft specifications A complete description of the vehicle/engine combination should be included (i.e. make, model, year, VIN #, engine code, displacement, etc.)
A known stock example of the camshaft in question must be included with the protested camshaft.
An accurate description of the intake and exhaust valve arrangement relative to the # 1 cylinder is required.
The engine firing order and crankshaft rotation direction is required.
The cost of each camshaft test is $100. Provisions for shipping to and from the national office should be included in the bond.
I would imagine that it is necessary for the protestor to supply the above information? If that is true, who verifies that it is accurate?


[/b]

Interesting......

On the cam thing.
item 1- When you go and meet with the Steward who will run the protest, you will fill this info out. Don't worry about things like the VIN, he or she will take care of that.
2- You don't supply a stock version..that's a conflict of interest. Topeka (Jeremy or John) will prcure one from a dealer, and then return it when finished. Once the data is "in the books" for a specific cam, they don't even need to do that. So the protest bond includes a charge for the service, and it includes a presumed amount for the restocking charge for the part, usaullly 10 or 20%.
3 & 4 will be filled in by the Steward based on info from the shop/service manual. In cases where that info is lacking, I suppose Topeka could help, but I am unsure of how far they will go, and ultimately, the better prepared the protester is with the facts, the better. In the case of our protest, we provided the service manual and specs on the car we were protesting. The Steward used those, but, as our information was a confilct of interest, he confirmed the stats with other sources.


When protesting, one must keep in mind that even if they provide parts they know to be stock, the Stewards can not accept them, as there is an obvious conflict of interest. It would also violate the "purity of evidence" chain. They have no idea where it came form and even if you THINK it's stock, it might not be. They just don't know, and can't assume. So they source them from neutral sources.

Same is true for parts confiscated. We protested a part, and the part number wasn't able to be ID'ed. We requested the part be sent to Kansas to be measured against a new part from a dealer. Too bad the Stewards gave the part back to the owner of the protested car. Once the part is out of the hands of the Stewards, the gig is up. Evidence tampering and all that.

So, going into a protest, do as much homework as you can. That involves some sluething, thats for sure.

[RSTPerformance]

Dave-

My experience has shown me that each instance is handled a bit differently depending on what is being protested, whom is protesting, whom is being protested, and whom the Stewards are. The most important thing to remember is that the Stewards try to make the process as simple as possible and as fair as possible for BOTH parties. This could mean that if a "stock part" is supplied as compairison by either party it may be used provided that BOTH parties agree on utilizing that part as a "reference" part.

It is also important (no matter wich side you are on) to be very clear (and it is always helpful to put it in writting) what if any specific issues or processes you would like handled. For example: If you are aware of a specific person and place where you would like to do the teardown and measurments then present that person/place ASAP so that it can be investigated as to if that person/place is aggreable to all parties involved to perform those duties.

The basic process that should be followed IMHO:

1) Talk to the driver, tell him/her your concerns and get feedback. Proceed if needed.
2) Talk to the Stewards (Drivers advocate) in your region and get feedback. Proceed if needed
3) File a protest (within the timelimits required) on ALL of the specific parts you want to be checked.
4) While you and the protested party are off prepairing to race and racing the stewards should be hard at work reviewing the protest (and any specific requests) getting info on the specific parts and talking to people who hopefully are at the track or reachable by phone and can be concidered experts in the area of question. During that time the Stewards should be getting a base price on what is reasonable to expect for a bond.
5) Post race the car is inpounded and the meetings start... back and forth determining a bond price and just as importantly where to source the info needed to indeed make a decision on legality. (The sources include but are not limited to the persons with the knowledge to answer questions, the persons with the capability to make honest measurments, and the parts needed to make compairisons.).
5a)After reviewing or making an agreement on all of the above and any other specifics that come up both parties agree to continue and their is no turning back, the checks are written.
6) The car is torn down at a mutually agreed upon time and place (be it at the track or after the track event is completed at an agreed upon location).
7) Comparisons are made and the info is given back to the Stewards.
8) The Stewards make a decision.
9) Parties can appeal as the process allows.

It is important to know that the process allows for variations in how protests are handled so that localy Stewards and the other people involved can make the best decisions for all EVERYONE involved. Be sure that no matter what side of the fence you are on that you are treated fairly. You should be aware NOW (or before you enter a race) how you would want the process to be handled and what can be expected from you. For example, if you are visiting a track 12 hours from home, what do you do if someone at that track protests you and you are required to leave the car behind? Will you build in shipping costs to the bond if the requested protester wants the car torn down at home or will you request that your car gets sealed and you meet a Steward in your local area where the protest tearddown could take place?

I think my biggest complaint is how long some of these protests take. Know what you want before you make the protest and insist that the stewards stay on track and don't get boggled down with stuff. Time is very important and can be very expensive to all parties involved.

Raymond "It is not an easy thing for anyone to go through (the protester, protested, and the officials handling the case)." Blethen

DISCLAIMER: This is my feelings/thoughts on the process, it is in now way the "official" Stewards view of feelings of the process. Many Stewards have very different levels of experience and may handle the situation VERY differently. The best thing you can do for yourself to truly get a grasp on it is to be a steward yourself and go through the process a few times. Anyone interested in being a steward, please feel free to contact me, I will send you in the right direction...

[Bill Miller]

Jake,

Where the ball got dropped on that one, was by not filing a protest against the steward for returning a part that had been protested, yet had not been determined to be in compliance.

[gran racing]

Any other recommendations on filing protests or does anyone else have questions about it?

[JohnRW]

Where the ball got dropped on that one, was by not filing a protest against the steward for returning a part that had been protested, yet had not been determined to be in compliance.
[/b]

And...what would that have accomplished ?

[StephenB]

Any other recommendations on filing protests or does anyone else have questions about it?
[/b]

Can yo protest someone even if you are not racing?

Can you protest someone in a different class?

Can you protest for a non competitive advantage... say I think someone is breaking a safety rule that doesn't really affect me?

Can you protest an entire race group?

Why can't you volenteer to help have an item checked in impound without going through the entire protest process? Or in other words why can't I ask for 1 simple thing even something like ride height be checked then have a volenteer to do it for them?

Why can't I find out if something I did is legal without having someone protest me and then go through the apeals process? Sure I can ask questions here but that doesn't mean it will be interepreted the same. I wish I could go to tech at that event and ask their opinion the day before so if it is an issue it can be fixed.

If I am protested 1 hr before and I know I can fix the issue before I race can I fix it? If I do fix it can you still find out if the original issue is ilegal without racing and then being found ilegal. In other words you go to the stewards and you protest my Brake ducts. I say man this sucks... I think I am legal but this is the last race of the season and all I need is to finish and get my bonus points to win the championship. So I don't care if it is a competitive advantage, I do think I am legal, but it's not worth being proteseted on for this event so I put a stock bumper cover back on. Tehn after I want to argue the point for next season to prove that I think I am legal.


Now you have some work cut out for you dave :) I will see Raymondo tonight and I may pick his brain on some of this stuff but I'm sure some others on these forums might have some imput...

Stephen

PS: After your research you should put together another book for SCCA Driver "Go Ahead... take responsibiliy for the legality of your class" I have not been part of a process ever and I think it honestly would be an interesting read :)

[Bill Miller]

And...what would that have accomplished ?
[/b]


At the very least, I think the steward in question would have a better understanding of how the process worked. Just because you're willing to volunteer for something does not mean that you're qualified for the job.

They guys the filed the protest had every reason to expect that the process would be properly followed. It wasn't. You probably wouldn't have an issue w/ a driver that didn't follow the rules being protested, why should it be any different w/ officials?

[gran racing]

If I am protested 1 hr before and I know I can fix the issue before I race can I fix it?[/b]

When someone protests another entrant, the individual being protested is alerted of this before the car is held by the stewards?

[JohnRW]

You posted:



Where the ball got dropped on that one, was by not filing a protest against the steward for returning a part that had been protested, yet had not been determined to be in compliance.
[/b]


The "ball was dropped" when the questioned part was returned to the competitor. So again I ask, what would have been accomplished ?

[StephenB]

When someone protests another entrant, the individual being protested is alerted of this before the car is held by the stewards?
[/b]

I don't know that's my question. Can if be fixed to be compliant before the race starts? I have heard of protests where the driver has his season points taken away. so in theory if they had fixed the part the person filing the protest would be out the money and the person cheating could be found compliant. I have no idea how it works or what happens thats why I asking if it can be fixed. I know for a fact that if you came over to me and said "I have talked to you in the past about how I feel that your break ducts are illegal so I have filed a protest agains you." I would go and fix my car and not take a chance at loosing my entire investment on the season. Then I would go back and argue about it after I was found compliant. Should I be confident that everything on my car is legal... YES... but maybe after an entire season and thousands of $$ I wouldn't take the chance that tech would be on your side and not mine.

Stephen

PS: I don't have any brake ducts so I'm not really worried... just using this as an example since it is currently being talked about on another thread.

[lateapex911]

The concept of further action regarding the protest in question was considered but dropped, and handled differently.

Dave, the Steward walks over to the car and "locks it down", so to speak.

[Bill Miller]

You posted:
The "ball was dropped" when the questioned part was returned to the competitor. So again I ask, what would have been accomplished ?
[/b]


Geez John, are you that thick? I said it would have educated the steward in question so that he may not have dropped the ball again. May not have fixed the immediate situation, but it may have fixed many potential future situations. Or maybe it would have removed someone that wasn't qualified to do the job, also 'fixing' potential future situations.

You seem to see this as a case of 'no harm, no foul', so it should just be dropped.

[JohnRW]

Geez John, are you that thick? I said it would have educated the steward in question so that he may not have dropped the ball again. May not have fixed the immediate situation, but it may have fixed many potential future situations. Or maybe it would have removed someone that wasn't qualified to do the job, also 'fixing' potential future situations.

You seem to see this as a case of 'no harm, no foul', so it should just be dropped.
[/b]

Actually, that's NOT what you said when you first posted it and I first commented. Read literally, your inference was that a protest at that time would have corrected in error, which it would not have. I do not think that it's a 'no harm, no foul' issue.

You need to write more clearly for us 'thickheaded' racers.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Why can't I find out if something I did is legal without having someone protest me and then go through the apeals process? Sure I can ask questions here but that doesn't mean it will be interepreted the same. I wish I could go to tech at that event and ask their opinion the day before so if it is an issue it can be fixed.
[/b]

To obtain a determination on the legality of a vehicle or component, without filing a formal protest, a competitor may request such a ruling from the Club Racing Office. The Chairman of the Stewards Program will then convene a first court. Their decision would then be reviewed by the Court of Appeals. The fee for this service is $250. A portion of this fee may be refundable at the discretion of either or both courts. Penalties or penalty points will not be assessed in the event of a negative ruling. A non-compliant ruling will be published; a compliant ruling will not be published.

</span>

[RSTPerformance]

Stephen-

We didn&#39;t get a chance to talk last night, and I would want to post this anyway... I hope it answers your question from my perspective. This is an area that I think can be worked with... I believe that a reasonable "protester" and some reasonable Stewards would allow some sort of aggrement that would allow you to race, provided that all parties involved agreed that this was a non-performance advantage.

If it was a performance advantage and it was found illigal (be it before or after the race) then certainly more issues come up, such as how long have you been racing with this "performance advantage." if it was for the entire season then maybe you should be penalized more heavily. At a very least I think that you would proably expect to at least loose your qualifying times and start from the back.

Personaly I think that IF a competitor is going to protest another for an illigal car then he/she should do so as soon as possible when the weekend starts, thus giving everyone time to work out this sort of stuff. It is all reasonable and the goal is to have fun with one another, not push people away and make the weekend hell for all involved.

Raymond "In the end we are all customers and we are all right, and deserve to be treated that way :rolleyes: " Blethen

[lateapex911]

I said it would have educated the steward in question so that he may not have dropped the ball again. May not have fixed the immediate situation, but it may have fixed many potential future situations. Or maybe it would have removed someone that wasn&#39;t qualified to do the job, also &#39;fixing&#39; potential future situations.

You seem to see this as a case of &#39;no harm, no foul&#39;, so it should just be dropped. [/b]

Bill, trust me that there are several ways to handle situations, and not all are visible. The situation was handled thru alternate channels. I am well aware that allowing mistakes to go unchecked can lead to further issues. I&#39;ll also remind you that from my lowly position in the class, the outcome of this protest really had little or no bearing on me and my relative performance and finishes. My involvement was due to my bigger picture views, and no balls were dropped in that department, The sloution was merely one that took another less visible route.



Stephen-

.

Personaly I think that IF a competitor is going to protest another for an illigal car then he/she should do so as soon as possible when the weekend starts, thus giving everyone time to work out this sort of stuff. It is all reasonable and the goal is to have fun with one another, not push people away and make the weekend hell for all involved.

Raymond "In the end we are all customers and we are all right, and deserve to be treated that way :rolleyes: " Blethen [/b]

I think that if you are considering a protest you need to come to some conclusions up front. And the first one is, (to me) is this a malicious act?

Lets say I (and I have been in this situation) have knowledge that I have high confidence in that the competitor is running illegal cams, or increased displacement, or some other black and white cheat. To me, thats something somebody went out of their way to do, and it is clearly an act of malice. My protest against such actions would not take into account "convenience" for the protested party(s). Nope, I willl protest when and how I choose, and I will concentrate on winning the protest. If you are going to kill the king, you must kill the king. .

On the other hand, if I feel that there is a debatable item on a car that the competitor feels is legal, but I do not, then if it gets to the point of a protest, i would work to time it in such a way as to be as convenient as possible to all parties.

But lets face it, most of us won&#39;t protest such judgement calls. We work it out thru other channels. (Some involving beer!)

[gran racing]

Well said Jake.

[RSTPerformance]

Jake-

I agree with your comments, but would encourage all not to wait till the last minute just cause you think it will help your fight, it will only add stress to all involved as time runs out very quick when trying to work with several different people. Once you know you have the King or Queen in "checkmate" do it, don&#39;t just play games ;) Otherwise, I agree 100% Jake. My reply to Stephen was in reference to someone whom doesn&#39;t want the kill, but rather a &#39;disagreement" resolved.

Also for thos wanting "A Guide to Protests" the following link (as posted on the other thread with the similar conversation) will show you an example of how/what Stewards are trained on.

http://www.offtotheraces.net/AGuidetoProtests.doc

Hope this helps, and as mentioned in the other thread doesn&#39;t get me in trouble for revealing those deep dark secrets that Stewards keep to themselves!!! :unsure:

Raymond

[RSTPerformance]

I said that I would post some documents that Stewards use when dealing with protests. I posted one above it is from 06 and is outdated. All of the documents are far to big to edit and post into the forum so I made up a webpage on our RST website and posted the info/documents in that page. Please follow the link, procrastinate and educate yourself on the processes. Then feel free to ask away any new questions/concerns. I will inturn give answers or get answers for each of you ASAP.

http://www.rstperformance.com/Stewards/stewardsinfo.html

I certainly hope this helps and is worth the effort I have put in to educate (at least a little) those that don&#39;t understand the process;

Raymond

[gran racing]

On the cam thing.
item 1- When you go and meet with the Steward who will run the protest, you will fill this info out. Don't worry about things like the VIN, he or she will take care of that.

2- You don't supply a stock version..that's a conflict of interest. Topeka (Jeremy or John) will prcure one from a dealer, and then return it when finished. Once the data is "in the books" for a specific cam, they don't even need to do that. So the protest bond includes a charge for the service, and it includes a presumed amount for the restocking charge for the part, usaullly 10 or 20%.

After re-reading the GCR and since I had Jeremy from National on the phone about something else, I asked for clairification on this. The National office does not procure the cam. Instead, who obtains it is up to the SOM. It might even be that the protestor obtains the OEM cam in a sealed box from a dealership. Now how the box can be properly sealed that a dealer would be okay with doing is beyond me. I would imagine that an official who is part of the protest process would be the one to do this, but who knows and there's no set way of doing it. In calling a few dealerships, I wasn't able to find one that would accept the cam back for a full or partial refund.

Has anyone been through a cam protest? How was the bond amount determined? Just curious to hear others experiences on this.

[jjjanos]

Can yo protest someone even if you are not racing?

If you are an entrant, driver or race official, you may file a protest.


Can you protest someone in a different class?

Yes.


Can you protest for a non competitive advantage... say I think someone is breaking a safety rule that doesn't really affect me?

Yes. Violations of safety rules affect us all - higher insurance when driver gets hurt.


Can you protest an entire race group?
Yes, but it better be a upheld or with a good basis otherwise you likely will get nailed for filing a spurious protest.


Why can't you volenteer to help have an item checked in impound without going through the entire protest process? Or in other words why can't I ask for 1 simple thing even something like ride height be checked then have a volenteer to do it for them?

You can volunteer to have your ride height checked. You can ask that tech check everyone's ride height and they might do it. In short, you don't have a right to have something checked until you file a protest.

IIRC, in DC Region, the driver's rep may ask for a non-invasive (weight, open hoods, ride height, track, etc. Cams, valves, pistons, no.) check of all cars in his class and that request usually is honored.