NER Points / Championship rules

[RKramden]

NERRC rules have been in a state of change for the last few years and have patches over patches.

So, here is a set of proposed rules, that might be able to make it until a year or three goes by without being changed.
How many races count? 2/3rds (rounded up) of the races count for points totals. In the case of a tie, the number of 1sts, 2nds, 3rds of ALL races will be used to break the tie. After that, we cut the trophy in half.
Bonus points: One bonus point for each race entered. (You must turn a wheel on the track.) One point for each race (not "qualifying race) that you finish. Note that this is for ALL races, not the 2/3rds that you count points from. Race points: Same as Nationals: 12, 9, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
Stickers: NERRC Decals required on each side of the car. Decals from NON-SCCA series are not allowed.
Classes: All regional classes in the GCR plus SPU, SSM, ITE, and NCF.
Entry levels: Classes must average 3 entries per race. To be considered a champion, a driver must finish 4 races. Also, the driver must have the highest points total in that class.
NCF will be per NEdiv CF rules with the NARRC Ford spec tire rule.
In any one weekend, only two races may be counted for points.

Opinions? (here are mine)

Only 8 races (currently) Ten out of 11 races is nuts. You are forced to do all the doubles, and never have a bad day. 2/3rds rounded up is currently 8 races, and that is two more than the Nationals allow. You can miss one double weekend and one single weekend, and still not get screwed.

Bonus points: You paid your entry fee, you should get the bonus, even if you crash in practice. Finish the race, and get the second point. In the long run, this has so little of an impact, that maybe the bonus (appearence point, finish point) could be doubled. Another way to do it is to offer points on a sliding scale: First five races: one appearence point, one finish point. Races 6,7,8,9: two appearence points, two finish points. Races 10+, 4 appearence points, 4 finish points. And you still only get to count the "tripple" weekend as two races. Under this type of scheme, bonus points (for appearence) would be: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 17, 21
Rewards the person who works hard to make ALL the events. Note that the 4 points for the extra track is gone. No 4 (or 8) extra points for running just 2 races a year.

Entry level: With an average class count of 2, if you show up at Lime Rock and finish dead last in a huge field, then are the only car to go to NHIS for the rest of races, the average will be high enough to get you a trophy, but you sure are not a champion.

The Glen: Does it count for points? What if someone wants to make Pocono a NERRC race as well?

d

[Andy Bettencourt]

I see no real reason to make it any more complicated than the NARRC. Here is the NEDiv sched:

http://www.ner.org/region/docs/2007NEDivschedule.pdf

I only see 9 points events for NERRC. 2/3rds would be the best 6...

Let's not overcomplicate with bonuses. Here is one suggestion: See if the pointskeeper can keep a 'dynamic' spreadsheet that has the point totals in decending order (I would be happy to volunteer to resort the sheets if they send them to me). The sheet is SO hard to read now.

If you wanted to do something special, make the Sept 8-9 Double the NERRC Finale...and pass out special flags at the conclusion of the second day to the Champions (like the NARRC).

[RKramden]

From the NER web site:

September, August, and July at NHIS are all doubles ==> 6 races
Lime Rock has the D/S-Regional and 4th of July ==> 2 races
NHIS has the 3fer weekend plus the regional after the school ==> 3 or 4 races, depending on how you count.

That is 11 or 12 races.

Plus the Glen. (maybe)

We already do the bonus stuff so thats not "more complicated", and in fact, it is simpler than the current one from a keeping track perspective.

Thanks for the offer of help, but the better half is the new points person for NERRC, and after 13 or 14 years of doing NEDiv Nationals, I'll bet she can keep it sorted fairly well.

[StephenB]

From the NER web site:

September, August, and July at NHIS are all doubles ==> 6 races
Lime Rock has the D/S-Regional and 4th of July ==> 2 races
NHIS has the 3fer weekend plus the regional after the school ==> 3 or 4 races, depending on how you count.

That is 11 or 12 races.

Plus the Glen. (maybe)

We already do the bonus stuff so thats not "more complicated", and in fact, it is simpler than the current one from a keeping track perspective.

Thanks for the offer of help, but the better half is the new points person for NERRC, and after 13 or 14 years of doing NEDiv Nationals, I'll bet she can keep it sorted fairly well.
[/b]


Dave,

I agree that we should do the bonus points. I am a bit concerned about making the bonus points larger as you do more races. It does have a big affect. I think the idea of the championship from the regions perspective is to get some "followers" to join in. I think in theory with your points system people would want to do each and every race for those bonus points but only a small % will. I think that some people may get discouraged because they know they cannot run the entire season and are therefor not eligable because those bonus points add up so fast in the end.

I do like the idea that if you paid your entry you get 1 point then if you finish you get an additional point. That way even the 10th place person gets 2 points.

I also still think we should place more emphasis on the points and include it in every entry packet and even take it a step further and use it as the grid for qualifying. It keeps people awaire and keeps them Excited. (IT could also keep the paddock safer by not having a huge line form 2 racegroups prior qualifying!

The last few years the points havn't been "current" That is something that could be improved from race to race.

Also like andy said some type of decending order would be so much better! (This alone would make me much happier!)

Then the 1 big thing which it looks like you are handling is how the system actually works. Last year it was a completly broken system since the rules conflicted eachother. I think last year should be null and void since the rules never were clarified. (I thaught I was 4th and ended up 3rd so the way they calculated it actually worked for me but not for others)

Thanks for trying to fix this up as it is certainly broken and hasn't been a concern or focus in our region for a while.

Stephen

[gran racing]

I also still think we should place more emphasis on the points and include it in every entry packet and even take it a step further and use it as the grid for qualifying. [/b]

There are many reasons why this would not work out well. :(

[Andy Bettencourt]

Maybe there is a conflict in the schedules: look here (http://www.ner.org/region/docs/2007NEDivschedule.pdf)

I see the following as 10 points paying events:

NHIS 4-22 Event 1
NHIS 5-26/27 Event 2/3
LRP 6-16 Event 4
LRP 7-4 Event 5
NHIS 7-14/15 Event 6/7
NHIS 8-26 Event 8
NHIS 9-8/9 Event 9/10

My point on uneeded bonus point complexity is your 'accelerated' attendance suggestion.

Dave - why would grid for qualifying based on points be an issue (besides being a PITA for Grid)?

[lateapex911]

I also still think we should place more emphasis on the points and include it in every entry packet and even take it a step further and use it as the grid for qualifying.

Stephen [/b]

Huh?

If I follow you, you want to use Nerrc points as a basis for qualifying??

Ummm...what about the guy who doesn't give a rats ass about the whole points thing? He gets to be last,? Not exactly fair, is it? As it is, NHIS has very little thats atttractive for me, except that my car is naturally better there than it is going in right circles at LRP. But I'll be sure to attend LESS events if I'm relegated to the back because I'm not a front runner in some points series.

[gran racing]

Dave - why would grid for qualifying based on points be an issue (besides being a PITA for Grid)? [/b]

What Jake said and then some. I personally could care less about either series and set my schedule based on my budget and what sounds like will be fun races. Anyone say Mid Ohio Festival and the ARRC? :D

Let's say that two people decide to run the series. Person one wins the first race; person two had some issues and DNF-ed. The next race, there's a sizeable advantage given to the first person.

[StephenB]

Not the Grid for the Race..... The Grid for the qualifying [/b]session[b]. I wouldn't change anything about qualifying other than what position you park in at False grid. If you want to start last you just pull into your stall in pit lane then go out after everyone or wait until the 1 min warning. I do not think points should have anything to do with where you start the Actual race!

And like Andy said again other than it being more work for grid what is so difficult or bad about it?

I think the benifits would be that it gives you a reason to want to get points throughout the season...
[/indent]you get to have bragging rights while sitting in false grid for qualifying.
[/indent]tou get to wait until 5 minutes are left to decide if you are going out on Rains or Slicks and you can still start around the people you are competitive
<blockquote>It allows for you to be on track with cars that are somewhat equivilent to you... how many times have you gone out to qualifying and every lap you need to pass someone! This would enable it to be more like a race where it would take several laps to catch the back of the feild, instead of all the slower cars being spread out throughtout the feild.
</blockquote>It allows you to be awair of who you are in competition with for the series without actually going on the internet to search for it. I think this would build some series competition not just for first but all the way to the end of the field.

[lateapex911]

Interestingly, I disagree with most of your points... (with all due respect, of course, I just have another point of view)

- Grid/T&S?pointskeepers need more hassle like they need a hole in the head,
- What about traveling guys..."Sorry, you go to the back with the rest of the scum.."...kinda elitist, no ?
- Part of qualifying is the brains it takes to do it....finding a gap in traffic, finding the right drafting partner, whatever, it&#39;s part of racecraft to qualify well. A unique skill set. That gets taken away.
- Lets be honest, the points series reward showing up more than any other single virtue. Is it fair to a guy who races half the events to get second string treatment, and have a DIS advantage in changing weather conditions?


Not a fan, but that&#39;s just me.

[StephenB]

I see your "points" Dave and Jake. I personally will probably only run 1 NER event this year due to finances. (Buying a house) But I wouldn&#39;t mind being last in qualifying if I showed up. I don&#39;t think it is that big of a disadvantage at all since you are not racing for first and like you said if you start last is no worse than what we are doing now with everyone mixed. I think it would be kinda cool to see who is where in the points and be able to go over and socialize/ congratulate them in grid.

The main reason why I think it would be good is because everyone starts to line up at least 1 session ahead of time. that being said I just realized I amone of those fools that tries to get over early to be in the front so there must be an advantage.... Oh-well I was just thinking of a cool way to make grid less congested and rushed. I did just realize another issue that you guys didn&#39;t point out... If your spot is guarenteed then everyone will probably come at the last minute creating more disorganization and confusion as your trying to get out on track.

So now that we have both sides in the end if it could be set up I would like it since I like being "up to date" on the points throughout the year but it&#39;s not that big a deal if we do it or not, just an idea.

I am Very excited that Dave and company are taking the lead on getting the points system fixed for the NERRC serries!

[gran racing]

You do bring up a good point about people sitting outside of the grid area well in advance. That is a bit annoying. I did think you were talking about points dictating the qualfying.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dave and Jake - you gotta read the posts! QUALIFYING spots. It&#39;s a take-it or leave-it idea for me.

- More work for the Grid team

+ A perk for the points leaders

+ Cleans up the paddock by eliminating pre-session line-ups

- Doesn&#39;t allow you to &#39;choose&#39; spot (I purposly grab the LAST spot if I can&#39;t have the first due to the nature of my car needing 100% clear track to get a good lap)

+ Would be nice to see who is leading the points just by a glance at the qual grid

No qualifying strategy goes away, you still have to find that gap or drafting parter...your grid spot is just pre-determined instead of s-luck (like it is for 99% of guys who aren&#39;t strategic with their starting spot)

Bottom line? I like the NERRC series the way it is. Maybe something at the &#39;finale&#39; like I suggested above.

[ner88]

I&#39;m just curious as to how many racers actually care about NERRC or NARRC points????

I see that most of the people who chime in here care but I don&#39;t think you all are a good representation of all racers.

I work hard on preperation, attend practice days and race hard but at the end of the day points mean nothing.

My point; a lot of work for so few who care.

Sorry, I&#39;m just trying to understand.

Jerry

[Greg Amy]

Jerry, I must confess that until around late May of 2006 I couldn&#39;t have given two shakes about NARRC/NERRC points. I, in fact, said as much last year during our pre-season "who&#39;s gonna win" BS sessions on this forum.

That is, until my "good friends" pointed out to me that I was leading the points handily (after the triple win at NHIS). Suddenly, it mattered. Can&#39;t really tell you why (&#39;cause I don&#39;t know), but it suddenly did.

The monetary reward and peer appreciation for winning NARRC and NERRC do have some personal value. The money, of course, comes NO WHERE close to being an economically viable reason, but there&#39;s something about knowing you&#39;ve made the effort and succeeding. Kinda like getting a job in IT with a History undergrad degree: it may not mean much in the end, but it does show you tried.

Now that I&#39;ve won both series I again profess no interest in the chase (BTDT, but this time I really do think I mean it.) In my case I&#39;m changing my desires/goals to try different marquee events at varying tracks. However, remembering how I felt last year, I can&#39;t begrudge others&#39; desires to reach for the brass ring...though I don&#39;t claim to understand it any more than I did last year.

On this particular topic, I have no personal preferences. I&#39;d like to see a points system that rewards consistent results without penalizing someone for A) not being able to hit 100% of the races, or B) having some misfortune in a few races. Like I said this time last year, the NARRC/NERRC should be won by the driver/team that shows the motivation and consistency to truly win a championship, versus a race or two... - GA

[ner88]

Thanks Greg, I suppose if I leave NHIS this Memorial Day with three wins I&#39;ll be looking at this a whole lot differently as well. ;)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jerry,

Maybe a thread on individual goals would be enlightening for all of us. Here are 3 of mine for 2007:

1. Win the NARCC Runoffs
2. Win the NARRC Series
3. Set (or reset) a track record

Now like many, I can only attend a certain amount of races. I concentrate on the NARRC and the NERRC falls into place by itself but isn&#39;t a priority because I consider the NARRC to be a tougher series due to it being a 4-Region series instead of one. Any attempt to make the NERRC a better series than the NARRC could woo my entry fees.

But we all do this for different reasons. Fun is the most important part because none of us are gettin&#39; rich!

[almracing]

I like the points system they used this year for the NERRC results in Pit Talk.

"If Competitor Points are less than desirable then use the car number"

NERRC - 2nd Place - 86 pts!!! :wacko:

PS - Blizzard coming up here - Finally!! Wildcat on Thursday!!

[RKramden]

Andy, of course, understands the basics. What is the goal? I thought about that when I posted the initial question, but I wondered about asking it. It is what drives the change, but it had too much chance of being revolutionary,

For Blethen&#39;s idea about qualifying slots based on points: Forget it. It might be OK in a single class race, but with DP, EP, FP, GP, HP, GTL, T2, T3, SPU, etc. all in one race, who gets the first few slots? It would make life on the grid be pure and total hell. Hmm... Maybe we should consider letting Karen deal with this.... :P

So, here are some points:

Current: 10 of 11 races count
Proposed: 2/3rds (rounded up) of the races count (Note that if the Glen is made a points race, then it may (will) change the counted number of races.)

Current: Bonus point for Starting the race, bonus point for Finishing the race (e.g. going half distance.)
Proposed: Bonus point for turning a wheel, bonus point for Finishing the race

Current: 4 extra points for running at two tracks.
Proposed: None, as it gets ugly with the glen. Does the Glen count, does it need another special rule? an OPTION would be the sliding bonus scale.

Current: Not clear, I think it was burried in the supps for memorial day.
Proposed: In any one weekend, you only get to count 2 races for points.

Current: National points for 1st, 2nd, etc.
Proposed: Same. note: this can be changed as well.....An extra two points for winning, an extra point for 2nd and third.

Current: 2 entries per race for championship status
Proposed: 3 entries per race for championship status

Current: To be considered a champion, a driver must finish 4 races.
Proposed: To be considered a champion, a driver must finish 4 races. Also, the driver must have the most points in that class.


So, bottom line, what types of behavior should the points system reward or encourage?

What would make the series so much better than NARRC that Andy forgets about NARRC and goes for NERRC? :happy204:

As for being timely, Marianne normally has the National points done a day or two after we get a copy. Have you looked at what we do for reporting them? (http://www.grav.net/%7Enedivpoints/stats.pl) (The driver detail is broken, and needs to be fixed, but the idea is there.)