Possibly experiencing issues with my tranny, but not really sure

[gran racing]

I posted this on honda-tech but maybe someone here has an answer or suggestions on this?

During the off-season I had a new final drive installed in my Prelude and just completed the engine install. When I go to turn the rotor, it is very difficult to move. If I put a tire on it, I am able to turn the wheel with two hands but it is still pretty tough to do. The shop that installed the tranny set it to the same clearances as it was before, and used a 0 backlash (whatever that means). In the past, I do not recall it being that difficult to turn the wheels but am now second guessing myself. Maybe it was? I really can’t say for sure.

Someone mentioned that with my Honda tranny especially with this type of LSD (clutch type from OPM), it is preloaded and normal to be somewhat hard to turn. I used the tranny with the LSD installed the past two years, so am confident that is not causing this new possible issue. I triple confirmed that it was in neutral. (The entire car is off the ground, the brakes are not causing the wheels to be hard to turn, the hub bearings turn properly, and the tranny has fluid in it.) Right now I'm trying to figure out if there really is an issue with the tranny / how the final drive was installed, or if this is just normal. I asked the guy who did the final drive installation if it needs to wear in, but he said that really isn’t the case..

Not that it really plays into the answer to my question, but the shop that did this really knows their stuff and I do trust their work. If it came down to it, they would also make things right.

One other thing, although for this I don't believe it is causing the issue. When I mated the tranny, I didn't install the release bearing. See what happens when I try to work on the car myself. Doh! Since the car is in neutral, that shouldn't have anything to do with this issue. Or would it? How difficult should I expect it to be to turn the wheels? I’m on a tight schedule and shipping the tranny to him would really mess things up timing wise.

Any other thoughts or suggestions? I’m not sure what to do at this point.

[erlrich]

Dave - let me start by stating that I'm a RWD guy, so everything beyond this may be 100% bass ackwards; having said that, the comment about the zero backlash seems a bit odd to me. Do you know if that's what the FSM calls for? I know with a normal ring & pinion there is always some backlash (usually somewhere between .004" and .008"), but again since you don't have a R&P that may not be the case. Still, with zero backlash it seems to me something is going to be binding in there.

What I would do, since you'll have to pull the tranny anyway to install the t/o bearing, is check it while it's out of the car - insert one of the half shafts and see if you still have problems turning it. If it's still hard to turn, then you know the problem is internal.

[gran racing]

I just went into the garage and took the brake pads off, just in case. I then put a tire on, and turned it. It does turn, but just difficult to do. Now I'm wondering if something happened to it when I crashed last year, although I do remember checking it afterwards. Maybe I didn't check it well enough? I'm so frustrated right now. :(

[Conover]

There is a Ring and Pinion in the FWD transaxle, it's just that the pinion gear is part of the out-put shaft. FWD transaxles are usually assembled on the tight side of the specs, when the aluminum case heats it will expand and the preload on the bearings will relax some. is there any gear oil in the transaxle? I'd recommend running it some, drive on it a bit, then check again. there will be some resistance due to drag from the oil, especially really really cold gear oil, also drag on the bearings, etc. If you are on a tight schedule and you obviously trust the fellows who built it, I'd say give it a whirl and report back. there really isn't much adjustment to be had in the backlash dept, it's all in bearing preload in those things, the case dictates the position of the shafts in relation to each other and the differential.

[joeg]

Just put it on the ground, fire it up and take it for a ride.

You are not going to be able to diagnose anything without trying it out.

[Greg Amy]

Well, actually, take the transaxle out, install the throwout bearing (DOOOHH!!!), put the transaxle back in, put it on the ground, fire it up, take it for a ride....

Oh, and make sure to install the wheels before putting it on the ground... ;)

[Jeremy Billiel]

Dave the clutch style LSD is going to be preloaded all the time and be hard to rotate. This coupled with the cold weather and it will be hard to move. Put the car together and take it for a rip!

[gran racing]

Yeah, Matt came over and when I showed him the clutch cable adjustment and how nothing felt right, he said "you did install the throw out bearing, right? "Ummm, what's that??" Matt's other comment was "that's really gonna hurt the power with my engine I just build."

O.k. If I do take it out for ride (after the throw out bearing, putting rims on, lug nuts and all), could I do some serious damage to the tranny if there is an issue? Or do you think the worst I could do is ruin some bearings which if it were that bad anyway, the final drive / tranny would need to be looked at regardless.


BTW, thanks for the support guys. In addition to on this thread, I received a couple IMs from Dave Dewhurst and Tom Blaney. Too cool. :happy204:

[joeg]

no. Since you cannot put it on a race track, a gentle cruise will allow you to listen for bad noises. If you hear something really horrible (or it won't move when you first let out the clutch) roll it back, jack it up and start over again.

Don't you love an Internet diagnosis?

[seckerich]

I would just drive it first Dave. The diff in your car is set with a decent amount of preload. It will not slip on the stands so you are turning everything in the trans when it rotates. A new RP will be a little tight when first installed with the lash setting for a FWD and cold oil as mentioned elsewhere. If you do find a problem just drop it back to Tom and I will check the diff out for you.

[spnkzss]

Yeah, Matt came over and when I showed him the clutch cable adjustment and how nothing felt right, he said "you did install the throw out bearing, right? "Ummm, what's that??" Matt's other comment was "that's really gonna hurt the power with my engine I just build."

O.k. If I do take it out for ride (after the throw out bearing, putting rims on, lug nuts and all), could I do some serious damage to the tranny if there is an issue? Or do you think the worst I could do is ruin some bearings which if it were that bad anyway, the final drive / tranny would need to be looked at regardless.
BTW, thanks for the support guys. In addition to on this thread, I received a couple IMs from Dave Dewhurst and Tom Blaney. Too cool. :happy204:
[/b]

Reiterate throw out bearing first. :)

Put both front wheels in the air, start the car, put it in first, slowly release the clutch without any gas, have someone see if both front wheels are turning, shift it to second, release slowly without gas again, have someone watch, repeat through all 4........ o wait...... I'm the only bastard with 4, most people have 5.

Then push the clutch in, step on the brake so the front wheels stop turning completely, put it in reverse and let out slowly. Again make sure they are going the right way. If it passes all of that, lower it on the ground and take it for a spin.

[gran racing]

Assuming it passes that test (with the wheels off the ground), when taking it out I'll just look for bad noises or other weird stuff while driving it. If it is too tight in reality but still feels o.k. based on my drive, I wonder if the bearings would overheat and cause issues? I'm also curious how much this could impact HP / torque numbers. Now I'm getting ahead of myself, but since Matt and I have spent a lot of effort and $$ doing the engine right, it is something I can't help but think about.

[Conover]

Run it, it's probably ok. just fix the clutch first! if the bearings go away get new ones, a short run shouldn't hurt anything important.

[JLawton]

"shouldn't" .
[/b]

That's gotta give you the warm and fuzzy's Dave!!

You shouldn't have let the cat out of the bag on Matt building your engine!! Now their going to be calling him MSS, Mechanics Shop South!!! :D

[lateapex911]

That's gotta give you the warm and fuzzy's Dave!!

You shouldn't have let the cat out of the bag on Matt building your engine!! Now their going to be calling him MSS, Mechanics Shop South!!! :D [/b]

Too bad he's actually north of Serras location, LOL...

So, Dave, how many cases of Monster was that motor?

[gran racing]

Actually I believe he is South of Anthony's location. Since it would be pretty close, how about we just use East.

I'd love to see Matt continue growing his business. He knows his stuff and has been extremely helpful and supportive through out the process. Now I just need to see this baby start and actually run. :D

[lateapex911]

Where is Matts locarion? ANthonoy's in Katonah, right?

[Doc Bro]

Kessler engineering is on North Plains Industrial Rd in Wallingford CT.

[lateapex911]

Katonah, NY: 41 degrees, 16 min North
Wallingford, CT, 41 degrees, 27 min North.....

But you're right, the easterly deviation is greater.

Matts getting a bit of a reputation for reliable HP, lets hope he found some in the 'Lude.

[gran racing]

I called "Uncle" and dropped the car of at Kessler Engineering. Today I received the good news / bad news. Who knew the bad news was going to be the good news? :happy204: The tranny is o.k. What was causing the bind was something wrong with the axel which was new. I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo happy. Yee-haw! :026:

[benspeed]

Dave - good news buddy!

PS - I have two newbies studying your book for next season. Both are building cars and using your pointers with great results.

[gran racing]

:D


Just make sure they don't read my "How to install a transmission" book. LOL! I'm looking forward to seeing you out in your new ITA car next year. It will be ready, right?

[JamesB]

:D
Just make sure they don't read my "How to install a transmission" book. LOL! I'm looking forward to seeing you out in your new ITA car next year. It will be ready, right?
[/b]

Either that or you need a better proof reader for leaving out the note to install the throw out bearing.

[Greg Amy]

Well...the box said "throw out bearing", so I did!!

[JamesB]

hahaha, I havn't heard that one in ages.

[spnkzss]

I am not doubting what has been said to you about the axel, but I'm having a hard time picturing it. Did they tell you what was wrong with the axel that was causing the binding? One end is in the trans and the other end is in a bearing. If it spins, then everything spins.

Curiosity killed something.....so I've heard.

[JamesB]

That is correct, except you also have to include the CV joint in that equasion if you have everything hooked up. If either CV has locked up then it wont want to move as well to the angle required to keep everything spinning.

[Greg Amy]

Did they tell you what was wrong with the axel that was causing the binding?[/b]
I was at Matt's shop yesterday and saw the driveshaft myself. The outer CV is very, very tight; it takes a good bit of effort to "bend" the outer shaft, far more than I expect it should. It feels almost as if the balls are binding up in it.

Since Matt didn't build the axles, it's highly unlikely he's going to disassemble them to find out what's wrong. Dave will need to send them to the original builder and ask to have them inspected. - GA

[gran racing]

All I know is that I was cheering in the car when Matt gave me the good news. I didn't really understand what is wrong with the axel (got a general idea), but since it was coming from Matt I was confident he was correct.


Well...the box said "throw out bearing", so I did!![/b]

Ha, ha. Maybe I should keep more of my stories to myself, like my adventure towing with the trailer I recently bought. :( It's all a learning experience.

[lateapex911]

.



Ha, ha. Maybe I should keep more of my stories to myself, like my adventure towing with the trailer I recently bought. :( It's all a learning experience. [/b]

And in rush hour traffic to boot! That's rich...;) (Give them commuters a reason to stop putting on makup and reading the paper and actually pay attention to driving! You are a service to your community friend!)

[JamesB]

Oh im sure we all have had towing adventures. I have had few with this rig, but lets just say when I was a towing novice I had many interesting adventures with the 12x7 trailer I used to motocross.

[kermode]

I had many interesting adventures with the 12x7 trailer I used to motocross.
[/b]
Must have been kind of slow racing against motorcycles :D

[JamesB]

hahaha, depending on if my father 'borrowed' my diesel or not that tow could be slow. Amazingly a ford 6cyl does not like carting 3 bikes, 5 guys and all the gear that comes with it up the NYS thru-way.

[spnkzss]

That is correct, except you also have to include the CV joint in that equasion if you have everything hooked up. If either CV has locked up then it wont want to move as well to the angle required to keep everything spinning.
[/b]


Fair enough. I didn't take the angle into consideration.

Thanks. Had a hard time picturing it.

[benspeed]

:D
Just make sure they don't read my "How to install a transmission" book. LOL! I'm looking forward to seeing you out in your new ITA car next year. It will be ready, right?
[/b]

We'll see - my wife bought many pretty little rocks on vacation last week - swear to god I don't know what they do with those shiny little pebbles but they sure love 'em. Gotta get the dyno work done and then if the car is making 140 at the wheels we'll build it. That's looking like the magic number.