What's with the no station wagon rule?

[JoshS]

What's with this rule? To me, station wagons are just sedans with a longer roof. Not to mention that a few modern station wagons are marketed directly to our demographic: the Audi A3, the Mazda3 "hatchback", even the Scion xB. These are all station wagons by the common market definition even if the manufacturers are avoiding the term.

Is there some good reason for the ban?

[Gary L]

I've often wondered about that one myself, particularly since it is unique to IT. Also, there is a glaring incongruity within the ITCS on this subject... one of the opening paragraphs (9.1.3.C) specifically addresses updating and/or backdating by using station wagon components. :blink:

[Greg Amy]

According to Prof Knestis on another board:

"The argument against wagons was based on the olden-days practice of putting "towing package" or other heavy-doody parts in them, that the sedan equivalents didn't have. While I'd tend to agree with the earlier suggestion that it was just "they ain't sports cars" bias, when we made an inquiry with SCCA Global HQ in CO (working on our own regional IT rules, before the national set got published) we were told that there was a worry that station wagon parts would be an unfair advantage.

Now whether this was EVER really an issue with Datsun 510s, Mazda RX3s, and Dodge Colts is open to question..."

[Joe Harlan]

According to Prof Knestis on another board:

"The argument against wagons was based on the olden-days practice of putting "towing package" or other heavy-doody parts in them, that the sedan equivalents didn't have. While I'd tend to agree with the earlier suggestion that it was just "they ain't sports cars" bias, when we made an inquiry with SCCA Global HQ in CO (working on our own regional IT rules, before the national set got published) we were told that there was a worry that station wagon parts would be an unfair advantage.

Now whether this was EVER really an issue with Datsun 510s, Mazda RX3s, and Dodge Colts is open to question..."
[/b]

I don't know but I think I would like to draft off one of these.....:)

[Gary L]

Draft a Datsun 510 wagon? Naahh... way too small to push (or pull) any serious air. Think Volvo 145!

[Darren]

FWIW, back in the mid '80s, Overton Motorsport ran a Volvo 740 Turbo wagon in the SCCA Endurance Series.

Personally not crazy about the idea, but what the heck. Not sure that the "tow package" would be any big advantage as they usually only consist of alternate springs, larger radiator & maybe an oil cooler. All of which are open in IT anyway. One thing for sure, the guy who does yer roll cage is gonna love ya. :026:

[RSTPerformance]

I would love for "Wagons" to be included in the mix... I am sure that the ITAC would look at each car individually and class/weight accordinlgy.

Taking it a step further I would love to see the small pickups included as well... basically the ITT type we see running around from time to time, esp in the southeast!!!

Bring it!!!


Raymond

[bldn10]

I saw a Subaru "wagon" either win or place up front (don't recall which) in Grand-Am last July at Barber. Wet track.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Everyone knows what a station wagon is:



http://www.hollywood-diecast.com/truckster.jpg

[bldn10]

I wonder what the Family Truckster would go for at Barrett-Jackson? :P

[zracre]

station wagon? Try just about every SUV out there...Escalade? station wagon...Excursion? you know the drill...

[tom_sprecher]

I wish they would allow station wagons. I want one just like the neighbors had in the early '70's. It was an Oldsmobile with simulated wood panels on the side and the stepped roof line had glass windows in the step. Great for seeing the green.

It had fold down sideways mounted seats in the very rear of the thing. Nobody worried about seat belt useage back then.

[jhooten]

I though I was going to get banned from the region when I asked about an IT truck class something like Atlanta region's. Good luck on the wagons. Resistance to change seems to be thoroughly imbedded in this organization

[JeffYoung]

If any of you guys know Dave Blum at Pete Krause's shop in Raleigh, NC, he just finished up (or it looked that way when I saw it) a burnt orange mid 80s Ford Fairmont station wagon. It is way cool. I think he intends to run it in NASA's American Iron series.

I, for one, am pulling for it.

[Ron Earp]

Awwww hell, here I come!!!! How many people here know they made those raise your hand?

http://www.gt40s.com/images/gt.jpg

[JoshS]

I love that car. But I don't think that's a station wagon (only 2 doors), but then, the term is not defined either. Frankly it's a lot like the Z3 Coupe I'm building right now, so I hope it's not a station wagon :-)

Let's just suppose for a moment that we removed the "no station wagon" wording but changed nothing else. What would be the effect?

A quick look through the IT listings shows the following cars that would now be legal:
ITS Volvo 850 GLT wagon
ITA Mazda RX-3 wagon
ITA Mazda RX-4 wagon
ITB Ford Pinto/Mercury Bobcat wagon
ITB Volvo wagons
ITC Honda Civic wagons (early)
ITC Datsun 510 wagons

And maybe a few others that I missed during my quick scan. There are other wagons that COULD be allowed, but the listings explicitly show body types that would exclude them.

Are we really afraid of these wagons? Don't some people think that a volvo wagon could be a pretty cool ITB car (although not faster than a sedan equivalent, due to the weight and location of the additional glass)?

I don't think any one of these cars would be faster than their alternate-bodystyle equivalents. I just question why the ban would be there? If the ITAC really was concerned about some particular wagon variant being too fast, then it can have its own spec line with its own weight, or as today for some cars, that body style could be excluded from the listings.

Would anyone have a problem with that?

[JeffYoung]

Bring on the wagons!

[Z3_GoCar]

Awwww hell, here I come!!!! How many people here know they made those raise your hand?

http://www.gt40s.com/images/gt.jpg
[/b]
http://www.conti.net/albums/dorkfest06/DSC_3681.sized.jpg

THEY'RE HERE !

Josh,

Gee, I don't know but it looks like you've got a station-wagon on your hands :lol:

BTW, congratulation on the birth of your son.

James

[NutDriverRighty]

IIRC, didn't a Volvo 850 wagon win the British Touring Car Championship about 10 years (or maybe a little more) ago?

[JoelG]

IIRC, didn't a Volvo 850 wagon win the British Touring Car Championship about 10 years (or maybe a little more) ago?
[/b]

Yes, in '94 I think.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Awwww hell, here I come!!!! How many people here know they made those raise your hand?

http://www.gt40s.com/images/gt.jpg [/b]



I will see your jenson and raise you 1 of 3 LeMans Tigers...

http://www.classictiger.com/pictures/Barkers/LMLHFront1.jpg

[JeffYoung]

Andy, Lemans Tiger process class is, what, ITC?

[lateapex911]

Awwww hell, here I come!!!! How many people here know they made those raise your hand?

http://www.gt40s.com/images/gt.jpg [/b]

That's no station wagon!! That's a Shooting brake! Pulleeeeze, lets get it right people...;)

I for one agreee, bring 'em on!

(And I imagine that if we were to peel away the onion that is the IT ruleset, we'd see that at some point in time, the equipment that came with wagons may have been feared, but was later allowed acrosss the board, rendering the "no wagons" rule pointless. )

[JeffYoung]

It was probably those big scary leaf springs, and maybe even the frightening efficient aero of the "wagon."

[Wreckerboy]

What about the guy about 10 years back who showed up at a regional at LRP with a mid '80's Malibu wagon that was modded beyond the pale, basically to GT-1 specs? He ran the thing (and a few NASCAR spec mid-60's Malibu's before that) with EMRA for a while. When he got to LRP, apparently the first thing he was told was "no wagons" before he was finally found a home in something like A Sports Racer.

I think he and his brother were named the Murray's or something like that, but they built some way impressive stuff.

[Gary L]

...and maybe even the frightening efficient aero of the "wagon." [/b]Poke fun if you will, but the aero advantage can be significant. When Volvo brought out the 1800ES wagon in '72, engine changes that same model year (drastically lower compression, slightly different porting) resulted in about 8% less SAE net HP. The ES wagon was as a result, measurably slower in acceleration than the previous year 1800E coupe, despite being only about 1 or 2% heavier. But road tests of the day also showed the wagon at least as fast as the '71 coupe at top end (some tests actually showed the wagon faster), despite the lower output engine. These two cars were absolutely identical from the front bumper to the B pillar... the only difference was in the shape of the rear of the cars. And yes, they were otherwise mechanically identical, to include gearing.

[JeffYoung]

Gary, I love those 1800ES wagons. They are a bit of a fastback though right?

I am not knocking aero on any car. I am learning the hard way with my car the importance of aero even on IT cars.

I think the 1800ES is just a good design aero wise. Some of the other wagons-- the Vista Cruiser! -- not so much I think.

But, I do agree and bet on this -- when tha rule was created, a wagon probably had WAY better aero than some of the open top cars running around that the SCCA apparently likes to protect.

[Gary L]

Actually, the ES is not really a fastback... the roof sheet metal is dead straight in side view, until it gets to the rear lift gate, which is all glass. I tried to post the full size photo of my ES, but it wouldn't work due to something about a dynamic address on my photo hosting site??? Here's a thumbnail of the same shot that does appear to display, you can at least get an idea of the shape.



http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/E0/20/GaryE/1/1da.jpg

[lateapex911]

I am sure that some wagons have aero advantages over their identical brothers, but, on a road course, I would think that any advantage would be a wash at best when the higher center of gravity of all that matal and glass get figured into the equation.

In other words, if you took two versions of a Volvo XYZ, and prepped the wagon and sedan version the same, the same driver would NOT show better lap times in the "aero" sedan....

[JeffYoung]

What do P1800s go for these days Gary? I have always really liked those cars, might have to get one.

[Ron Earp]

That is correct Jake, a shooting brake! I must admit, while I know the term and use it, I don't know where it comes from. Anyone know?

I don't think wagons would fare that well, at least not on my JH version and a few of the others listed. The JH SB is heavier with the same power, so that isn't a good thing.

I like that Leman Tiger and the P1800s. P1800s were always cool little cars I thought.

R

[JamesB]

I am not knocking aero on any car. I am learning the hard way with my car the importance of aero even on IT cars.

[/b]


This I know well when people 4-5 carlengths behind me can pick up the draft of my flying brick.

[gsbaker]

I am sure that some wagons have aero advantages over their identical brothers, but, on a road course, I would think that any advantage would be a wash at best when the higher center of gravity of all that matal and glass get figured into the equation.

In other words, if you took two versions of a Volvo XYZ, and prepped the wagon and sedan version the same, the same driver would NOT show better lap times in the "aero" sedan....
[/b]
Amen. My daily driver is a wagon which, IIRC, weighs 200-300 more than its sedan version. That's a bunch of pounds to carry that high on a road course.

[Gary L]

What do P1800s go for these days Gary? I have always really liked those cars, might have to get one. [/b] Despite the fact they were built in fairly small numbers (about 8000 over 2 years), they've never really caught the collectors' eyes... Four or five grand for a daily driver in decent shape, to fifteeen or twenty for a well restored example. Like most 30+ year old cars though, ya gotta be careful about rust in the unibody.

[Gary L]

I am sure that some wagons have aero advantages over their identical brothers, but, on a road course, I would think that any advantage would be a wash at best when the higher center of gravity of all that matal and glass get figured into the equation.

In other words, if you took two versions of a Volvo XYZ, and prepped the wagon and sedan version the same, the same driver would NOT show better lap times in the "aero" sedan....
[/b]

Didn't say it would. :D I was simply pointing out that there is a significant aero difference in some cases. And yes, it will make a lot more difference at Atlanta than it does at Hallett. But incidentally, all that weight you're concerned about being too high? Also remember... it's 100% over the rear wheels. This is good, don't care whether that Volvo you're running is an antique rear drive 145 or a "modern" 850 front driver. Hmmmm.... if both are classified at the same overall weight, I might be betting on the wagon after all!

[x-ring]

That is correct Jake, a shooting brake! I must admit, while I know the term and use it, I don't know where it comes from. Anyone know?

[/b]

Not sure either, but I bet that you could find out here: http://www.shooting-brake.com/

[Ron Earp]

Not sure either, but I bet that you could find out here: http://www.shooting-brake.com/
[/b]

Nice find, those are some cool cars! I'll report back.

R

[kermode]

That is correct Jake, a shooting brake! I must admit, while I know the term and use it, I don't know where it comes from. Anyone know?

IR
[/b]

I've developed the Wiki theory - If I can't find in Wikpedia it really is inconsoquntial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_brake

[ggnagy]

One frequent difference is that many wagons have a longer wheelbase compared to their sedan/coupe brothers.

Oh, and Adam Malley seemed to think that Civic wagon brakes were enough of an advantage that he had them on his H Prod car.

[JoshS]

One frequent difference is that many wagons have a longer wheelbase compared to their sedan/coupe brothers.
[/b]

Frequent? Many? I don't think that's true, at least not with more recent cars. Got some examples?

[Stan]

Let me get this straight...

This is legal because it's NOT a station wagon...

http://www.conti.net/albums/dorkfest06/DSC_3681.sized.jpg

While this is not because it IS a station wagon...

http://www.pestalozzi.net/sb/volvo_1800es/volvo_1800es_410.jpg

Can someone explain that to me...? :P

Stan

[gsbaker]

You have to squint your eyes, Stan. :D

Personally, I'm going to begin referring to my old 528iT as an "estate car". I'd post more, but Jeeves and I are off to polo...

[Gary L]

Can someone explain that to me...? :P

Stan [/b]

Actually, the 1800ES is a bad example... SCCA would have a tough time excluding that car from IT based on the fact that it's a wagon. Many, many (pre-Improved Touring) years ago, they said it was a sports car by putting it in E and F production!

Meanwhile, hope I'm not offending anyone ;) but I have to say it... that BMW is just butt-ugly. What were they thinking???

[Stan]

Volvo 142 calling the Bimmer butt-ugly? :blink:

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot... :smilie_pokal:

Stan :cavallo:

[Gary L]

Volvo 142 calling the Bimmer butt-ugly? :blink:

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot... :smilie_pokal:

Stan :cavallo: [/b]

Yowbutt... Volvo's are supposed to be ugly. BMW did it by accident! :P

[JimLill]

That is correct Jake, a shooting brake! I must admit, while I know the term and use it, I don't know where it comes from. Anyone know? [/b]

IIRC... the English call them a brake, the French call them a break.... in both cases a station wagon of sorts. The "shooting" parts comes from just that.... a sporty wagon that an English Gent could put his long guns in to go out bird hunting or shoot some clays.

[JeffYoung]

I had a 2000 M Coupe. Best car I have ever owned.

The neighbor's kid called it....The Flying Shoe.

[RacerBill]

You have to squint your eyes, Stan. :D

Personally, I'm going to begin referring to my old 528iT as an "estate car". I'd post more, but Jeeves and I are off to polo...
[/b]

hey, Greg! go ahead and call it a shooting brake. There ain't enough of us around to know what that is!

[lateapex911]

Let me get this straight...

This is legal because it's NOT a station wagon...

http://www.conti.net/albums/dorkfest06/DSC_3681.sized.jpg

While this is not because it IS a station wagon...

http://www.pestalozzi.net/sb/volvo_1800es/volvo_1800es_410.jpg

Can someone explain that to me...? :P

Stan [/b]

I can totally see the Volvo being used to hold the rifle of a shooting gentleman...

And the BMW holding a sawed off shotgun...LOL.

Nothing says "Stubby" like that thing!

[gsbaker]

hey, Greg! go ahead and call it a shooting brake. There ain't enough of us around to know what that is!
[/b]
:) Maybe we could form a club, with a gang signs and all.

[CDS]

I always thought the M Coupe was kinda like an MGB GT on steriods. Personally I think they are really cool; odd looking but not ugly.

Of course, I also thought the no station wagon rule had to do with not wanting all that extra glass out there just waiting to be broken. (This is based on nothing more than it was the only reason I could think of :) )

[JimLill]

more detail on the origin of shooting brake....

Shooting Brake is named after the sporting estate wagons favored by Europe’s landed gentry for hunting parties in the 1920s and 1930s.