Zekert Excluded from CRB Town Hall by SCCA Pres. New Topic Reply to Topic

[Joe Harlan]

Zekert Excluded from SCCA Annual Convention CRB Town Hall by SCCA President Jim Julow. Allowed to return after paying fee.

San Antonio, TX. February 3, 2007. Before the start of the Club Racing Board (CRB) Town Hall Meeting at the SCCA Annual Convention, SCCA President Jim Julow instructed Peter Zekert, GTLite driver and long time small bore advocate, that he would not be allowed to participate in the meeting's discussion. "[Unless you register], you will not be allowed to ask questions until the end of the meeting and only if there is time left [at the end]" stated Julow. At issue is the fact that Zekert attends Annual SCCA Board of Director (BoD) meetings and Annual CRB meetings without paying registration. "I respect the host region and SCCA's costs. I NEVER attend lunches, dinners or use any of the services provided by the hotel for the convention. I simply come to bring ideas and questions from the small bore community to the BoD and CRB." stated Zekert.

The conflict has shed light on the fact that SCCA Annual Conventions are designed for administrators, stewards, & officials but are not designed to encourage driver (customer) participation. [For Example: The safety symposium has been dropped to leave time for more administrative seminars.]

The immediate conflict was resolved when Julow instructed SCCA staff to begin a modified registration process. Zekert was charged a modified registration fee of $100 to allow him to participate in the CRB Town Hall meeting. Julow assured Zekert that next year a tiered registration system would be implemented to allow drivers to come and participate in meeting without attending, or incurring the expense of, an entire 3-4 day convention.

Julow was aware that Zekert attended Convention Meeting as an unregistered member in an e-mail Zekert sent to him in January outlining the lack of drivers in attendance and the roadblocks the convention structure posed. "I told Jim that for years I would drive to the BoD Town Hall and then drive back for the CRB Town Hall. I encouraged other drivers to do the same. ALL I want to do is to be able to ask MY Directors and MY CRB members questions."

[Greg Amy]

Wow. Try that for shareholders at a meeting of a public corporation and find your Board Members in jail right quick...but this ain't a public corproation; it's a private club, in all senses of the words...

[RSTPerformance]

I think that is great that Mr. Julow responded so quickly and that we now have diffferent tiers for "registration." Seems to me like things are heading in the right direction for wanting driver feedback.

Raymond "The only thing better would be if the entire event was free to everyone, especially workers. However I can understand a charge as we are a club and thus somehow we would be paying for it one way or another..." Blethen

[BobsAuto]

Wow. Try that for shareholders at a meeting of a public corporation and find your Board Members in jail right quick...but this ain't a public corproation; it's a private club, in all senses of the words...
[/b]

I thought that SCCA WAS a corporation. If that's the case, then.....

I'm glad, however, that they responded quickly on this. Imagine the fallout if they hadn't. I would think that they WOULD welcome driver feedback. After all, isn't that the forum for a town hall type meeting?

[tnord]

well, from the whispers i've heard from people that regularly attend the convention, Zekert has a bit of a reputation. he's a character, that's for sure.

[Joe Harlan]

well, from the whispers i've heard from people that regularly attend the convention, Zekert has a bit of a reputation. he's a character, that's for sure.
[/b]

Peter may be a character but there are very few that have the drive and passion for this sport that he has. That said per the bylaws the BOD must hold a yearly business meeting. Why in the hell should we be charged to attend a require meeting? I can see excluding non-paying members from the dinners and social functions but not required meeting.

[tom91ita]

i really don't have an issue with the way this was handled as it is presented here in this thread.

i have been to several things, class reunions, etc., where other people would show up "late" so that they did not have to pay and then their only expense would be the cash bar. their rationale was that the event was too expensive.

but what you can't get through to those types is that the cost of the dinner was what paid for the meeting room that they are now inside and enjoying. meeting rooms are routinely provided for large events because of the number of guest rooms that are booked.

i do think there should be a modified fee for those that do not need to stay at the event, go to all meetings, etc. but no one should be able to just show up and walk in and expect equal treatment when they did not pay the fees.

sort of line-jumping at amusement parks. those that are playing by the rules don't appreciate it. if i had paid to be there and was registered for meetings, i would not want one to be dominated by someone that has not paid.

[Andy Bettencourt]

i do think there should be a modified fee for those that do not need to stay at the event, go to all meetings, etc. but no one should be able to just show up and walk in and expect equal treatment when they did not pay the fees.
[/b]

I agree 100%. Follow the policies as laid out. If the policy stinks, work to get it fixed. Don't be surprised when you do an end-around to the rules, you get called on it.

Let's also not position Zekert as a martyr. He tried to fudge his entry, he got caught. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Joe Harlan]

I agree 100%. Follow the policies as laid out. If the policy stinks, work to get it fixed. Don't be surprised when you do an end-around to the rules, you get called on it.

Let's also not position Zekert as a martyr. He tried to fudge his entry, he got caught. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/b]


I guess I would expect no less than that from you Andy. Everybody should just drop 900 bucks to have a face to face with the BOD that is supposed to be serving its membership.....

[Andy Bettencourt]

I guess I would expect no less than that from you Andy. Everybody should just drop 900 bucks to have a face to face with the BOD that is supposed to be serving its membership..... [/b]

Jump out of the black helicopter Joe. If I wanted to go and saw that price, I would have thrown up in my mouth. It would have prompted an immediate call/e-mail to my BoD rep asking him to either change the policy or make some exceptions while the policy is changed.

You guys kill me. I am sure you guys think it's some conspiracy. Mattberg is already spewing threats. Have fun going after the windmills.

[dj10]

Let's also not position Zekert as a martyr. He tried to fudge his entry, he got caught. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/b]



Ouch Andy! :D I hope you know this as a fact?? I do disagree about having to spend money to attent a board meeting as long as your are eating & drinking with paying members.

[Joe Harlan]

Jump out of the black helicopter Joe. If I wanted to go and saw that price, I would have thrown up in my mouth. It would have prompted an immediate call/e-mail to my BoD rep asking him to either change the policy or make some exceptions while the policy is changed.

You guys kill me. I am sure you guys think it's some conspiracy. Mattberg is already spewing threats. Have fun going after the windmills.
[/b]

Again Andy you assume I or peter did not do this? The only reson I am not there is my wife's accident has had her in a wheelchair Or I would have paid the 300 bucks to raise this exact issue on the floor of the event. It is complete bullshit to think that you would have to pay to have a face to face with the BOD. Save you black helicopter shit for Matt, Andy you know better than that shit with me, There does happen to be a number of people in this club that won't be fed a shit sandwich at everyturn.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ouch Andy! :D I hope you know this as a fact?? I do disagree about having to spend money to attent a board meeting as long as your are eating & drinking with paying members.

[/b]

Dan,

Maybe my words came out wrong. From the info given, he didn't register and didn't pay the required fees to attend. That is how I read it. The $900 Joe is talking about is a padded number that must include other expenses. Full registration for the event was $295 including all meals and activities.

Is it bogus to think you have to pay to attend a general session? Yes. But lets not make it seem like the SCCA doesn't care what it's members think because some guy got called to the carpet on policy - albiet a dumb one. It would seem it will get changed.

As has been stated, registration/head count is key to successful off-site meetings. If "X meeting" was scheduled in "Room Y" and holds 150 people, and 250 show up, it doesn't work.

[Joe Harlan]

Dan,

Maybe my words came out wrong. From the info given, he didn't register and didn't pay the required fees to attend. That is how I read it. The $900 Joe is talking about is a padded number that must include other expenses. Full registration for the event was $295 including all meals and activities.

Is it bogus to think you have to pay to attend a general session? Yes. But lets not make it seem like the SCCA doesn't care what it's members think because some guy got called to the carpet on policy - albiet a dump one. It would seem it will get changed.

As has been stated, registration/head count is key to successful off-site meetings. If "X meeting" was scheduled in "Room Y" and holds 150 people, and 250 show up, it doesn't work.
[/b]

And 900 dollars to fly 300 hotel 300 register 300 and this assumes I had to eat at home no padding it is an accurate number. You want me to fax my travel agents information sheet?

[Andy Bettencourt]

And 900 dollars to fly 300 hotel 300 register 300 and this assumes I had to eat at home no padding it is an accurate number. You want me to fax my travel agents information sheet?
[/b]

Joe, I was clearing up a grey area you created by throwing out $900 to attend. It read like that was the registration fee.

[Greg Amy]

No one should have to spend one thin dime to pay for the privilege to attend their club's board meeting. Pure and simple.

Any other activities? Fine. But the open meeting? Nada dinero.

[charrbq]

No one should have to spend one thin dime to pay for the privilege to attend their club's board meeting. Pure and simple.

Any other activities? Fine. But the open meeting? Nada dinero.
[/b]
Agreed...100%! Where do they come up with these fees, anyway? Or maybe I should ask, where do they come up with the stones to charge these fees?

[tnord]

Let's also not position Zekert as a martyr. He tried to fudge his entry, he got caught.[/b]

there's a little more to it than that i'm guessing.

[Joe Harlan]

Julow was aware that Zekert attended Convention Meeting as an unregistered member in an e-mail Zekert sent to him in January outlining the lack of drivers in attendance and the roadblocks the convention structure posed. "I told Jim that for years I would drive to the BoD Town Hall and then drive back for the CRB Town Hall. I encouraged other drivers to do the same. ALL I want to do is to be able to ask MY Directors and MY CRB members questions."[/b]

To start with they knew he would be there, They knew what his questions were gonna be. All of this has been on GT,prod and save clubracing sites. They could have kindly said to Peter and or any other driver that was planning on attending only this meeting that they had to pay before they left for texas. When I called Mike Dickerson to find out about any special deals for only the town hall and the CRB meetings I was told my only choice was the 295 dollar deal.....Imagine 295 bucks to ask your elected officials a few simple questions.

[RSTPerformance]

They all have e-mail, its on the scca.com website... e-mail thme if you have questions.

The fee for the meeting is fine with me, and if you don't like it you don't need to go. It is NOT the only way to reach your represenatives. YOU ALL KNOW THAT!!!

What is a shame is that drivers are bitching about having to help pay for the annual meeting costs, but workers never complain and continue to PAY to go to every event and volunteer their time... Some of you are pathetic, rich, and completely... whatever, over and out.

Raymond "If it was free none of you would still go anyway, so quit bitching loosers" Blethen

[Joe Harlan]

They all have e-mail, its on the scca.com website... e-mail thme if you have questions.

The fee for the meeting is fine with me, and if you don't like it you don't need to go. It is NOT the only way to reach your represenatives. YOU ALL KNOW THAT!!!

What is a shame is that drivers are bitching about having to help pay for the annual meeting costs, but workers never complain and continue to PAY to go to every event and volunteer their time... Some of you are pathetic, rich, and completely... whatever, over and out.

Raymond "If it was free none of you would still go anyway, so quit bitching loosers" Blethen
[/b]


Yeah Raymond that's it. We are rich whining loosers.....Way to handle yourself....As far as workers go stuff that shit... I am as pro worker as anyone and workers are participants in a hobby just like the rest of us that does not make them a special case it makes them enthusiasts like the rest of us. I don't know about your world part of the world but we feed and provide a fair amount of beer and other spiffs out here. Our worker have the opportunity to have their dues paid in part or whole depending on how much time they work.....I personally stop and give MY victory lap flags to a corner station everytime I win one....So please kiss my rich whining looser butt when it comes to that subject. As far as the business meeting goes there should not be charge one for attending that meeting or any meeting that has to do with the business of SCCA a club that I am a 17 year member of.

OH and BTW....I have emailed my questions and gotten NO response....I emailed my question on how much Roadracing pays for SOLO insurance and got no reply....I do have the official records of our iinsurance payouts from 1998 to 2002 and I bet they will answer when those questions are asked publicly.

[JeffYoung]

If you want to make a free point to the BoD, WRITE THEM.

If you want to attend a meeting they set up, that is catered, etc. and involves a cost, PAY THE COST.

[Greg Amy]

The fee for the meeting is fine with me, and if you don't like it you don't need to go.[/b]
Dude, did you really write that? "Let them eat cake" and all that? Looks like we're back in the fifties. What's next...gotta be a WASP before you can join the "club"...?


If you want to attend a meeting they set up, that is catered, etc. and involves a cost, PAY THE COST.[/b]
See, that's the wrong attitude, Jeff. The annual meeting is something that is required as part of the charter of the club, something that is a part of doing business. As such, the expenses for that meeting - where 'members' can meet with their board annually - should be absorbed as a part of having the club.

Just because the Board decides to make it all part of an optional fun convention does not mean that this required meeting should now be a part of those paid activities. They are mutually exclusive, yet coincidental, events.

The Board meeting should be open and free to all SCCA members.

[zchris]

Well said Greg and Joe. Many of us, not you Raymond, are tired of sticking our head in the sand. We question our leaders. And expect responces. Such is the nature of progress. I am not going to say one or another of the BOD are a problem. Collectively they just are not leading the way many of us feel is in the clubs best interest. I will not go into examples here. But being able to discuss concerns with this BOD in a public forum, should not be another profit center. Jim Julow removing a member was just wrong on many levels. I would imagine that was instigated by a member of the BOD.
Chris Howard

[RSTPerformance]

I might have been a little harsh, but the reality is everyone has a different way of contacting the BOD, if your region (area) has selected a good BOD, then you will probably find him/her at your local events, nevermind sending him/her a specific e-mail. I know I have had issues with SCCA and sent e-mails. I got swormed with imediate responces and phone calls from people in Topeka, and to them I am a nobody, so I know it is possible to get in contact them.

As far as "annual meeting" stuff, it costs money no matter how you look at it. Unfortunatly someone has to pay for it, I would rather see those that feel they need to go to pay for it, rather than all of us seeing an incresed in national dues to pay for it.

Do I think it is entirely fair, no, but that is how it has been forever (as far as I know), the people whom go to meetings have to pay for travel, hotel, meals, etc. no matter if they are just a crew member, driver, worker or steward. I think that IF they were to "raise our dues" to pay for the annual meeting the same people complaining now would be complaining when the policy changed. It is impossible to please you people. Actually that is not true, probably the only thing that would make you happy is if they had an open/free meeting in a SCCA conference room (very limited overhead costs to hold the meeting). I just hope it is big enough to fit the 3 people from out of town that go.

I am sorry for being harsh, but you really need to realize that you nit pick every little thing SCCA does, and it is starting to get anoying. Personally I don't think that we/you should be changing or attacking this sort of stuff and you should take the energy and work on changing things that will make a difference, sort of follow the role of our recent ITAC & CRB, and make a real changes that actually effect us, and make things better for the club as a whole!!!

Raymond

Quick edit- I do not want to say that I don't disagree with you Chris or others, I do think that several of the BOD members could use replacements, and as with chris I wont go into my personal esperiences and give examples, but I have plenty. Every organization has flaws, I don't thank you for bringing them out. To me many of those flaws do not need to be publically protested, as those public protests hurt the club FAR MORE than any of our current or past BOD member has. The organization is great on a whole, keep your complaints on the SCCA forums where working BOD/CRB/ITAC etc. members should actually be responding. Let this forum (website) help grow our freindships and compainions by attracting new members.

[gran racing]

Jim Julow removing a member was just wrong on many levels. [/b]

With the current structure of the event and basing my opinion on what's been said here, he should have been asked to leave. If I were one of the paying participants, it would have frustrated me to know someone took the back door in.

Without knowing many other details involved in the conference, it&#39;s hard to say if it should be opened up to all members for "free". I do agree that a tiered structure does make sense, and people should be required to register in advance. Let&#39;s just say that the SCCA decides to open this up for members to attend for free. That now requires the club to rent a much larger facility, adding to the cost of the conference. These costs must be paid for somehow, wheither that means the regions fees need to be increased, our membership fees need to be increased, or via some other method. In anycase, it will have some impact on the club&#39;s members. O.k. guys, start writing your draft to complain if this gets changed. <_<

It&#39;s interesting to hear see some of the ways people approach this and other topics, complaining how SCCA doesn&#39;t listen to you, or won&#39;t provide answers to your questions. Based on the way you communicate here (you sometimes come off like an ass), I wonder how you communicate when seeking this information. The guys/gals at the National office are not difficult to get in touch with. I&#39;ve had the pleasure of speaking with Mike Dickerson several times and have nothing but very positive things to say about him. Bring any issues up with your region and let them take it up the ladder if appropriate.

[Joe Harlan]

With the current structure of the event and basing my opinion on what&#39;s been said here, he should have been asked to leave. If I were one of the paying participants, it would have frustrated me to know someone took the back door in.

Without knowing many other details involved in the conference, it&#39;s hard to say if it should be opened up to all members for "free". I do agree that a tiered structure does make sense, and people should be required to register in advance. Let&#39;s just say that the SCCA decides to open this up for members to attend for free. That now requires the club to rent a much larger facility, adding to the cost of the conference. These costs must be paid for somehow, wheither that means the regions fees need to be increased, our membership fees need to be increased, or via some other method. In anycase, it will have some impact on the club&#39;s members. O.k. guys, start writing your draft to complain if this gets changed. <_<

It&#39;s interesting to hear see some of the ways people approach this and other topics, complaining how SCCA doesn&#39;t listen to you, or won&#39;t provide answers to your questions. Based on the way you communicate here (you sometimes come off like an ass), I wonder how you communicate when seeking this information. The guys/gals at the National office are not difficult to get in touch with. I&#39;ve had the pleasure of speaking with Mike Dickerson several times and have nothing but very positive things to say about him. Bring any issues up with your region and let them take it up the ladder if appropriate.
[/b]


Dave, I have worked with some nice people at the national office and my complaint was not with Mike Dickerson. He explained the situation and nothing more(his job) As far as coming off like an ass I can promise you that every written request I have ever made to the national office and the BOD has been nothing less than professional. You may be right that I am an Ass from time to time but the fact is I give what I get. Call me a whining looser and you will receive the same in return. Please take the time and read the bylaws, This meeting is a required meeting spelled out in the bylaws. The national convention is a social function they happen to be on the same weekend. There is nothing in the bylaws that indicate there should be a charge to attend the business meeting of OUR club. As a matter a fact if you look at it right our dues our entry fees our membership is what pays the largest share of any of these deals.
We have a BOD that voted to move all of our staff and offices to topeka kansas, our solo nationals are held in Topeka, Our National runoffs are held in Topeka Our offices are in topeka. Why is our convention not in Kansas? As a club we are now paying for our staff to travel to Texas? We paid for a number of our staff to attend the PRI show. You talk about things going up because a driver or two may want to attend a business meeting while ignoring where the real increase in our costs come from. Please if you want to bury your head in the sand do it completely. Don&#39;t just pop it out of the ground to call shit on those of us that are actually looking for real ways to contain costs and grow this sport.

Finally Dave, I do come across as an ass but if you were ever in trouble at a race track you would not find anyone more willing to help. I maybe an ass about it but you could be sure everthing that could be done would be done to make sure you raced.

[charrbq]

Joe,
The next time you prepare a list of questions to the board or whomever, would you please include some of mine that seem to get no response? You could even tie them into yours, if you&#39;d like.

When does SCCA Enterprises plan to pay back the money they took(stole) from club racing to finance their effort...starting in 1983 and continuing today?

Could they take the money used to keep SCCA Enterprises afloat and direct it toward reducing the expenses of things like national conventions?


Having a dues paying member pony up more bucks to attend a mandatory club meeting is like taxing a tax. Didn&#39;t we go to war a while back on such a similar subject?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Bottom line, you should be able to attend the Town Hall for free. But you HAVE TO register. This is a members club so keeping track of non-member participation/disruption is a must.

It is obvious to me that something will be done in terms of a tiered system next year. It makes sense. I am just tired of all the &#39;look at me&#39; ways of shedding light on this stuff. A &#39;press release&#39;? Please. You will find you will catch way more flies with sugar than with piss and vinegar. Most of these people are very resonable when you ask instead of tell. Our BoD member made a presentation at our Annual Meeting. After he was done, I felt good about the future of Pro, financial visability and Enterprises.

As far a Joe being as ass, he is not. He, like all of us at times, has a hard time harnessing his passion through the keyboard. It&#39;s the nature of the beast.

[Joe Harlan]

Bottom line, you should be able to attend the Town Hall for free. But you HAVE TO register. This is a members club so keeping track of non-member participation/disruption is a must.


As far a Joe being as ass, he is not. He, like all of us at times, has a hard time harnessing his passion through the keyboard. It&#39;s the nature of the beast.
[/b]

As stated Andy I did try to register I did not pay the 295 dollars to register but i did buy a plane ticket and I did reserve a room at the Holiday Inn, The only reason I am not there raising the issues myself was Debs accident. When I called and explained I was only attending the town hall meeting and the CRB meeting I expected some effort would be made to allow that to happen. What I got was you should have registered 2 days ago and it would have been 50 dollars less. Again I would have paid it. to ask the questions I had have not gotten a satisfactory answer to.

As far as your last line goes. Your back on my Christmas card list but please don&#39;t be spreading the rumor I am not an Ass. I have spent a lot of time and money building that rep and I don&#39;t want to be exposed as anything less..... :P


Chris: That was one of the questions on the list but I have to tell you. The real issues are loans at below market rate to Pro and insurance. I don&#39;t want to re kindle that flame but the fact is I now have actual payout records for 1998 to 2002 and they show a completely different story than you have been told. I am still working on the total numbers and will have that info on saveclubracing site soon.

[gran racing]

You talk about things going up because a driver or two may want to attend a business meeting while ignoring where the real increase in our costs come from. Please if you want to bury your head in the sand do it completely. Don&#39;t just pop it out of the ground to call shit on those of us that are actually looking for real ways to contain costs and grow this sport. [/b]

I never said a driver or two. To make this open, it would need to allow all members of SCCA to attend.

Burry my head in sand...call shit on those of us looking for real ways to contain costs and grow this sport? Now that&#39;s funny! I&#39;ve put some serious effort and fincial investment into trying to do my small part in growing this sport. Hopefully we&#39;ll be able to think of better ways to grow our sport than this effort. LOL

For the record Joe, I said "(you sometimes come off like an ass)". My point was how one would react to various methods of communication. You&#39;ve said it yourself in your signature, no? "I just type like a pompous ass!" Besides, I haven&#39;t actually called you an ass, yet? ;) (Just teasing.)

[Joe Harlan]

I never said a driver or two. To make this open, it would need to allow all members of SCCA to attend.

Burry my head in sand...call shit on those of us looking for real ways to contain costs and grow this sport? Now that&#39;s funny! I&#39;ve put some serious effort and fincial investment into trying to do my small part in growing this sport. Hopefully we&#39;ll be able to think of better ways to grow our sport than this effort. LOL

For the record Joe, I said "(you sometimes come off like an ass)". My point was how one would react to various methods of communication. Besides, you&#39;ve said it yourself in your signature, no? "I just type like a pompous ass!" Besides, I haven&#39;t actually called you an ass, yet? ;) (Just teasing.)
[/b]


dave, I think I let my brain get ahead of my fingers again. Some of that statement was refering back to raymonds statement. Yes the business meeting should be free to all of our members as a matter a fact I believe it would cost very little to Webcast this meeting so we could all take part in it.....Lets put in in a term we all understand. I will cost you close to two sets of race tires to attend this meeting if you live outside of driving range.....Not right.

Pompous ass will be proudly displayed on my race car this season.....

[charrbq]

Joe,
What&#39;s the safeclubracing site? I&#39;ve heard about it, but can&#39;t find out much.

[tom91ita]

.......but please don&#39;t be spreading the rumor I am not an Ass. I have spent a lot of time and money building that rep and I don&#39;t want to be exposed as anything less..... :P........[/b]

for some reason, seeing "Ass" and "exposed" in the same sentence, cracked me up! :lol:

and i am glad to see someone noting that the passion of the keyboard is a difficult translator, this should be discussed over :birra: and not :024: :D

[Joe Harlan]

Joe,
What&#39;s the safeclubracing site? I&#39;ve heard about it, but can&#39;t find out much.
[/b]


Chris, I started a site to try to pull all this political stuff away from car specific sites and get members workign toward a cause. http://www.saveclubracing.com I bought and paid for this site as my contribution to the membership. I have offered to donate the complete site to a group if moderators so it does not come across as my site.

Tom, you caught that....It would not be the first tiem I exposed my ass in public..... :023:

[88YB1]

I did two new things receintly. Investing in the stock market and driving a rece car. Being familiar with Home Depot it was onre of the first stocks I bought. At the very first stock holders meeting the BOD and CEO laughed in the stock holders face. As A resuld Denardi is no longer there.
A company belongs to the stock holders and a club belongs to it&#39;s members. If you don&#39;t like the way the leadership is handling it speak at the ballot box.

Chuck Willyard
324270

[ddewhurst]

*** Denardi ***

Chuck, I don&#39;t remember his name but it was not the name you stated. It is something starting with an N. (Nardilie ?) Second the entire BoD should be removed for his hire contract with a $210,000,000.00 buy out or whatever it&#39;s called.

[IPRESS]

Boy...... do we need warm weather and the racing season to start.

[planet6racing]

Damn straight we do. It&#39;s -10 here this morning and I walked in my 2 miles just so I can start getting into shape for the season!

You know, every morning I click the IT.com link and wonder why I don&#39;t visit this site as much anymore. I&#39;ve just found my reason.

The rules stated that everyone in attendance must pay a registration fee. Just like the rules state that everyone involved in a club weekend must sign the waiver. Or like, if your car came with a washer bottle, you must have it in IT.

[Bill Miller]

Every organization has flaws, I don&#39;t thank you for bringing them out. To me many of those flaws do not need to be publically protested, as those public protests hurt the club FAR MORE than any of our current or past BOD member has.[/b]

Raymond,

With out trying to be rude or harsh, you really don&#39;t get it. Your attitude is exactly what the people that perpetrate this stuff want. Don&#39;t shine a light on it, so they can keep on doing what they&#39;re doing. That&#39;s exactly what we DON&#39;T need to do. If that&#39;s the approach you take, it will never get any better, or go away.

And as far as the comment about the protests hurting more, I have only 2 words for you. Fran Am!

For the money that we spent on that, we could have held a free meeting for all members for the next several years!

[JamesB]

Bill your absolutely right that oversight is always needed. But the problem is that this clubs members like to spotlight every single issue no matter how big or small the problem is its called out in public. After a while members like me get tired of all the nit-picking on the little stuff as well as the big stuff and we get close to tuning it out. And that is the point I see Raymond making is that by continuing to gripe and overspotlight the little things members will ignore the noise when its a big item being publicly protested.

Believe me, I work nearly one of DC&#39;s favorite protest locations and I can read the news about a protest that had 10k people and I walked right by that park at the same time for lunch and never noticed it.

[Andy Bettencourt]

One thing to understand about the reation to this topic here on IT.com is simple. Our culture. This issue has a TON more traction on the Prod board and the GT board. I believe it&#39;s inherent to the constant bombardment of comp adjustments and political manuevering to improve ones advantages and reduce others competitive advantages. While the constant ebb and flow is very prominant in other organizations like SCCA Pro, Grand Am Cup, NASCAR - there is a big difference - changes are made by a central dictatorship where the appearance of politics is minimized (albiet still there). I have full faith in our CRB to do what they think is right, but there are so many different cars and platforms that changes affect so many people in so many different ways that everyone can never be on the same page.

These guys feel like they are &#39;oppressed&#39; almost daily...and as Chris Howard said, they are tired of burying their heads in the sand...and I am glad they are standing up and being counted...BUT to some of us, the means by which they are standing up is counterproductive and discrediting...hence some of our reaction. Good luck to all.

[jjjanos]

"I respect the host region and SCCA&#39;s costs. I NEVER attend lunches, dinners or use any of the services provided by the hotel for the convention. I simply come to bring ideas and questions from the small bore community to the BoD and CRB." stated Zekert. [/b]

Good gawd, what a load of crap.


Fabrication. Is he sitting in the room? Then he is using the services of the hotel. The hotel doesn&#39;t just give it away.


The conflict has shed light on the fact that SCCA Annual Conventions are designed for administrators, stewards, & officials but are not designed to encourage driver (customer) participation.[/b]

Fabrication.

First, seems to me that by making those who are not paying for attend wait until the end to ask questions, the SCCA is directly serving the paying customers of this event.

Second, you&#39;ve drawn a conclusion without any supporting evidence. The Convention is open to ANYONE who pays the registration fee.



"ALL I want to do is to be able to ask MY Directors and MY CRB members questions."
[/b]

Then pay the damn registration fee. In addition, I think the statement is a lie by ommission. I believe that speaking to the CRB and BoD were not the only reasons this was done the way it was done.



Why in the hell should we be charged to attend a require meeting?[/b]


Cause there ain&#39;t no such thing as a free lunch. Either those attending pay the or the entire general membership foots the bill.


GRegAmy
No one should have to spend one thin dime to pay for the privilege to attend their club&#39;s board meeting.[/b]

Ain&#39;t no such thing as a free lunch. Either those attending pay the or the entire general membership foots the bill.


GRegAmy
Dude.... .....The Board meeting should be open and free to all SCCA members.
[/b]

Ain&#39;t no such thing as a free lunch. Either those attending pay the or the entire general membership foots the bill.

[p.keane]

Guys, I would like to try to clear some of this up. I was at the convention and talked to Peter and also got to hear the other side. I was not present when it all went down, but I did get the story first hand from the people envolved. The following are a few points that I would like submit into the discussion.

1. I like Peter, I had drinks with him Friday night and talked to him Saturday night. I also agree with Joe that you will not find a more passionate person than Peter. He is smart and likes to stir the bucket.

2. Peter was allowed to attend the BOD town hall (I think that was Friday afternoon). He stepped to the microphone several times, spoke freely and nobody said a word to him. All of his questions were answered. I must say Peter was pretty mild mannered this year.

3. Mr. Julow did not get envolved until he was told that Peter had attended other meetings. Mr. Julow quietly talked to Peter before the CRB town hall and told him that he did not believe it was right to attend the convention with out registering. Peter told him he would go register. Peter went to the registration desk and they were going to charge him a fee less that what he paid. The way I heard it from the SCCA staff person is Peter wanted to pay the full fee, but they finally agreed to the $100. Again, she was going to charge him way less and he wanted pay full price.

4. The money the SCCA will charge members to attend the meeting in the future is for the conference room rentals and we had a lot of rooms.

5. The safety siminar was not at this years convention because of funding. We all agree that it was something that was missed. The SCCA staff is trying to figure out a way to continue the program. Maybe do it every other year. Members can help by sending donations to the SCCA Foundation.

Hopefully, this clears some of this up. I think it was handled like adults and wish it would not get whipped up on the web. I know that Peter was trying to make a point and did. I also think that if Peter had not told the world that he was going to attend the convention for free, no one would have ever said anything to him. He left Mr. Julow no choice but to speak to him. I also believe that it was very respectable for Mr. Julow to handle it himself. PK

[Joe Harlan]

Good gawd, what a load of crap.
Fabrication. Is he sitting in the room? Then he is using the services of the hotel. The hotel doesn&#39;t just give it away.
Fabrication.

First, seems to me that by making those who are not paying for attend wait until the end to ask questions, the SCCA is directly serving the paying customers of this event.

Second, you&#39;ve drawn a conclusion without any supporting evidence. The Convention is open to ANYONE who pays the registration fee.
Then pay the damn registration fee. In addition, I think the statement is a lie by ommission. I believe that speaking to the CRB and BoD were not the only reasons this was done the way it was done.
Cause there ain&#39;t no such thing as a free lunch. Either those attending pay the or the entire general membership foots the bill.
Ain&#39;t no such thing as a free lunch. Either those attending pay the or the entire general membership foots the bill.
Ain&#39;t no such thing as a free lunch. Either those attending pay the or the entire general membership foots the bill.
[/b]

So Your probably OK with the BOD making loans to Pro Racing at below market rate and Settling a lawsuit behind closed doors for antitrust violations, Or that Roadracing carries the largest share of all expenses in this club. If you have no issue with any of that then you should just go right past threads like this cause there are some in this club that won&#39;t be feed a shit sandwich and be forced to like it. A 501C4 corp is a public corporation and I believe there could be legal issues with blocking anyone from attending a required business meeting.

[Mattberg]

Just curious...

How many of the officials at the convention got sponsored by their regions? How many of the BoD members and CRB members paid a registration fee of $295 and all of their own travel and lodging expenses? How much of the $75,000 for "meetings and director&#39;s expenses" assigned to club racing was for this event?

[JeffYoung]

Does anyone have a problem with Peter&#39;s explanation of this, since he was THERE?

Or are we going to debate this endlessly?

I remember my organization hating days..down with the rules man! The man is out to get me!

What I&#39;ve learned is that ALL organizations are simply groups of people, and groups of people often make poor decisions or try to do things in the self interest of the majority at the expense of the minority. So the trick is to have rules to limit this stuff, and then use them to change things you don&#39;t like.

So see, rules ain&#39;t so bad...

If you don&#39;t like what the BoD is doing in charging a fee to attend an event that costs the club money, vote and try to change it.

[jjjanos]

So Your probably OK with the BOD making loans to Pro Racing at below market rate and Settling a lawsuit behind closed doors for antitrust violations, Or that Roadracing carries the largest share of all expenses in this club. If you have no issue with any of that then you should just go right past threads like this cause there are some in this club that won&#39;t be feed a shit sandwich and be forced to like it. A 501C4 corp is a public corporation and I believe there could be legal issues with blocking anyone from attending a required business meeting.
[/b]


Obfuscate, ad hominem and attempt to change objection when original cause for panty in a wad is shot down.

Look, we all understand you get a hard one over certain stupid things the BoD has done. The two issues you raise, however, have NOTHING to do with whether a trespasser should be allowed at a meeting.

As for the claims relating to requirements of a 501C4 corp.. how about doing some research to verify whether you are correct, cause until you provide the article and section of the U.S. Code, all you are trying to do is "feed us a shit sandwhich."

[Greg Amy]

Ain&#39;t no such thing as a free lunch. Either those attending pay the or the entire general membership foots the bill. [/b]

I wasn&#39;t going to reply to this topic again, but I really detest arrogance.

Dude, it&#39;s outlined in the by-laws as a REQUIREMENT to have this meeting, thus its existence is ALREADY being paid for by the membership via annual dues. Regardless if it&#39;s happening in a conference room at the main offices in Topeka on a Wednesday night in July, or at a hotel banquet facility in January that&#39;s already being used for something else, the Board meeting and its facilities are already being paid for by the membership as called for in the charter. It&#39;s a cost of doing business as a club under the existing by-laws. My annual dues to the Sports Car Club of America gives me the RIGHT to attend the annual Board of Directors meeting if I so choose, regardless of where or when it&#39;s being held.

If the Board decides it wants to save the membership some money by holding this meeting coincidental with already-rented facilities at an event where all Board members are already going to be, what a SUPER great idea! But don&#39;t ask me to pay for that entry again, &#39;cause I already done paid for it via dues.

And that, Sir, is a fact, not an arrogant opinion.

[lateapex911]

Peter Keane, thanks for the input. Hearing what REALLY happened, from someone who was there is good stuff.

In the future, I am sure there will be a two tiered system that allows members into the meetings as required by the bylaws and the charter but charges for other "value added" aspects.

Gregs point seems valid.



Just curious...

How many of the officials at the convention got sponsored by their regions? How many of the BoD members and CRB members paid a registration fee of $295 and all of their own travel and lodging expenses? [/b]

Just so we have this straight....in your deciding who the "majority" is (From your signiture) that will rule, count my vote as "Not sure if I care" in regards to the above quote...............

[88YB1]

Right on Greg. The rules governing the meeting already exist in the by-laws, and must be followed by the elected, appointed, and hired officials as well as the general membership.

Chuck

[jjjanos]

I wasn&#39;t going to reply to this topic again, but I really detest arrogance.

Dude, it&#39;s outlined in the by-laws as a REQUIREMENT to have this meeting, thus its existence is ALREADY being paid for by the membership via annual dues.[/b]

DUDE not one penny of your dues is specifically set aside to pay for this meeting. If the meeting costs $55,000 to host and we have 55,000 members, then dropping the registration fee raises your dues cetaris paribus.


the Board meeting and its facilities are already being paid for by the membership as called for in the charter. It&#39;s a cost of doing business as a club under the existing by-laws. My annual dues to the Sports Car Club of America gives me the RIGHT to attend the annual Board of Directors meeting if I so choose, regardless of where or when it&#39;s being held.[/b]

1. According to the By-laws posted on the website , you have no right to attend such a meeting nor do you have no right to attend such a meeting at no cost to you. You are, however, required to be notified of such a meeting, but the by-laws to not require that members be allowed to attend the meeting. In fact, your presence at ANY club meetings is by the specific grace of the BoD. (See:Article III and in particular Section 4 of the 1July2000 SCCA By-laws)

2. Please cite the section of the by-laws or articles of incorporation that specify the funding mechanism for this meeting shall be from dues.

3. Given that the by-laws also require SCCA to "...promote interest in sports cars and other fine automobiles and to encourage their safe and skillful operation, by developing, arranging, and regulating closed circuit road racing, rallying, and other forms of automotive competition, by dissemination of information through news releases and Club publications, and through related social and recreation activities for the instruction and enjoyment of its members." Please provide a logically consistent explaination reconciling why it is proper for the Club to charge entry fees for by-law mandated recreation activities (aka a RACE) and the impropriety of charging an entry fee a by-law annual meeting.

Using your logic, there should be no entry fee for any activity required under the by-laws and racing, or should I say organizing a recreational event, is required.



And that, Sir, is a fact, not an arrogant opinion.
[/b]

No, it is an opinion based on a lack of knowledge of the fungibility of money and the by-laws.

[Greg Amy]

You&#39;re a lawyer, aren&#39;t you? It&#39;s starting to make sense now...

I&#39;m already starting to feel pretty embarrased having allowed myself to jump into the mud pit with you. Do NOT interpret any silence on my part as ANYTHING approaching agreement with you on any of this. - GA

[JeffYoung]

Let&#39;s back up a minute and put aside the issue of whether the SCCA should or should not require someone to pay to attend to this meeting.

Let&#39;s ask this question: does it look like anything untoward happened at the meeting, or that Mr. Julow acted in any way inappropriately? Because that is what the gist of this thread is -- that the SCCA is trying to silence its members. It certainly doesn&#39;t look that way to me at all.

Now, back to the cost issue. The SCCA is a 501© non profit organization. Take a look at the salaries it pays its officers. Other than the President, I believe no one is over (or much over) $100,000. There are only 5-6 officers with significant salaries, and by significant I mean more than $50k.

We are not talking about Exxon here. I am sure the SCCA is just as cost conscious as any corporation, and charging to attend the meeting is not unreasonable per se.

If you think it is wrong, write, vote, etc. I probably agree with you on this on some level. But this whole idea of the SCCA is out to screw its membership, and in particular regional club racing -- which is the REAL point of this thread -- just seems wrongheaded to me.

[jjjanos]

You&#39;re a lawyer, aren&#39;t you? It&#39;s starting to make sense now...[/b]

Worse... any economist who works with lawyers who quote actuarial law. :bash_1_:

Fact is, I think the annual meeting should be open to all members and a fee far less than the $100 they charged this guy. Won&#39;t be that many folks taking advantage of it anyway. Somewhat shocking that the rules/procedures for attendance at the annual meeting being set by the BoD. Kind of like Congress deciding who gets to vote.

What I object to is the implication that this was an attempt to Roswell someone.

[CDS]

[quote]
"1. According to the By-laws posted on the website , you have no right to attend such a meeting nor do you have no right to attend such a meeting at no cost to you. You are, however, required to be notified of such a meeting, but the by-laws to not require that members be allowed to attend the meeting. In fact, your presence at ANY club meetings is by the specific grace of the BoD. (See:Article III and in particular Section 4 of the 1July2000 SCCA By-laws)"

Wrong. SCCA is a Conecticut non-stock corporation. Section 33-1061 of the Connecticut Code requires that an annual meeting of members be held. Article III, Section 4 of the Bylaws establishes what constitutes a quorum at the meetings and addresses voting by proxy. The board does not have the authority to prevent any member who is otherwise entitled to vote at a meeting from attending that meeting. Please identify what section of the bylaws authorizes the board to establish a charge for attending the annual meeting.


[quote]
"Given that the by-laws also require SCCA to "...promote interest in sports cars and other fine automobiles and to encourage their safe and skillful operation, by developing, arranging, and regulating closed circuit road racing, rallying, and other forms of automotive competition, by dissemination of information through news releases and Club publications, and through related social and recreation activities for the instruction and enjoyment of its members." Please provide a logically consistent explaination reconciling why it is proper for the Club to charge entry fees for by-law mandated recreation activities (aka a RACE) and the impropriety of charging an entry fee a by-law annual meeting."

Because annual meeting are specifically required by law. The club is free to impose dues, fees, etc. for any other activities it wishes to conduct.

[jjjanos]

Craig:

Government authority granting BoD to set rules for Annual Meeting:

Sec. 33-1061.A of the Connecticut Revised Nonstock Corporation Act.

"A corporation that has members entitled to vote for the election of directors shall hold a meeting of such members annually at a time stated in or fixed in accordance with the bylaws."

How SCCA sets the rules of the Annual Meeting:

Article III, Section 4 SCCA By-laws as posted on the website.

"Presence and voting by proxy may be allowed at the discretion of and in accordance with rules prescribed by the Board of Directors."

When and where Annual Meeting Must Be Held

Article III. Section 1 SCCA By-laws as posted on the website.

"The time and place of the annual meeting, which may be held either within or outside the state of Connecticut, shall be established by the Board of Directors which shall also arrange for an annual convention for the Members to be held in conjunction therewith."

Conclusion: The Annual Meeting must be held in conjunction with the National Convention. The rules of the Annual Meeting are prescribed by the BoD.

In accordance with the by-laws, the BoD has prescribed rules. Those rules require paying an registration fee.


Because annual meeting are specifically required by law. The club is free to impose dues, fees, etc. for any other activities it wishes to conduct.[/b]

What the law does not prohibit is legal. Neither the CT code nor the SCCA Bylaws prohibit a registration fee. In fact, the CT code requires that the meeting be held in accordance with the SCCA Bylaws; The Bylaws require that the Annual Meeting be part of the National Convention. The Bylaws say that the BoD prescribe the rules for the Annual Meeting.

[JeffYoung]

I guess another point is -- what is so atypical about this?

Most corporations don&#39;t pay for their shareholders to come to meetings. They shareholder foots the bill.

I&#39;m just perplexed by the "uproar" here. If the guy wants to talk, he can talk. He just has to register. And that still doesn&#39;t stop him from:

a. Writing to the CRB or SCCA management; or

b. Calling writing to every other SCCA member.

[Joe Harlan]

Jeff, The uproar is this. I am willing to fly myself out to where ever the BOD chooses to hold the meeting, I am willing to take care of my own lodging and food. I have no interest in any of the social functions that are being offered. I was told that it would cost me 295 dollars for the pleasure of sitting in 2 meetings that directly effect my racing. None of us are asking to attend the social function at no charge. There should be no charge for a required business meeting as pointed out above. Now before you go there, I did call and ask about a reduced registration fee for the 2 meetings I planned on going to and I was flat told there was nothing that could be done. None of which has anything to do with why I was not there. I would have paid and then raised it as an issue in the Q&A session. Once again this seams like a stupid little issue but if you start to add up all the stupid little issues you will find a reason for some folks to be upset.

[CDS]

jjjanos, you are confusing the annual convention with the annual meeting required by statute. The club is free to establish a charge and any other rules for the annual convention. The bylaws also state that the annual meeting of members is to be held at the same time as the annual convention. All well and good. What the bylaws do NOT state, nor could they under law unless voted on and approved by the affected members, is that the club may impose a fee for attending the annual meeting. As a member I have a right, enforceable in court, to attend the meeting and to demand inspection of certain club records. To the extent the bylaws purport to give the directors discretion to restrict attendance at the annual meeting then such provision is unenforceable.

[jjjanos]

All well and good. What the bylaws do NOT state, nor could they under law unless voted on and approved by the affected members, is that the club may impose a fee for attending the annual meeting.[/b]

"Presence and voting by proxy may be allowed at the discretion of and in accordance with rules prescribed by the Board of Directors."

We voted on the bylaws. The BoD did not simply impose them by fiat. We have met the enemy and he is us.


As a member I have a right, enforceable in court, to attend the meeting and to demand inspection of certain club records.[/b]

Ummmm... not under the CT statute that someone else gave as the basis. There may be a different statute that covers this.

You are entitled to go to the business office and obtain an alpha list of the members who are entitled to vote at a meeting. (Sec. 33-1070.B)

You are entitled to see certain corporate records at the business office, provided you have given them a 5 business day notice. (Sec. 33-1236)

I find nothing in Sec 33 of the CT Code giving you the right to attend a meeting except in accordance with the bylaws of the organization holding the meeting. The SCCA bylaws do not so state.

There are rules on voting, both in the statute and the bylaws. For example, if SCCA wants to sell any part of ProRacing, it has to be done by a membership vote.


To the extent the bylaws purport to give the directors discretion to restrict attendance at the annual meeting then such provision is unenforceable.[/b]

The annual meeting is open to all members, provided they register and pay the fee. Neither the statute nor the bylaws prohibit setting a fee. Please cite the section of either the code or the bylaws that prohibit it.

Now, if they tried to require that you be present to vote, then you might have a point, but AFAIK, it has been a long time, if ever, since the BoD has put anything at the Annual Meeting to a vote. It&#39;s all just discussion and reports.

[CDS]

jjjanos, review the CT statutes again. I have the right to inspect certain documents at or before the meeting, and the right to request the court to postpone the meeting if I am not allowed this inspection.

Please name any other public corporation that charges a fee to attend its annual shareholders meeting.

I submit that Article III, Section 4 of the bylaws gives the board authority to prescribe when presence is required for voting or when voting by proxy is allowed. Any other reading is contrary to law. The statute requires an annual meeting, and as a voting member in good standing I have a right to attend. The club cannot keep me out, whether by trying to impose a fee or otherwise.

I would propose that the club hold the annual members meeting at the headquarters in Topeka at a different time of the year. This would require amending the bylaws, but it would remove the issue of having to pay the convention fee just to attend the annual meeting. I agree with an earlier poster that it doesn&#39;t make much fiscal sense to incur all the costs to move the headquarters to Topeka, presumably to consolidate everything, and then pay for staff to travel to Texas for the convention.

[jjjanos]

Please name any other public corporation that charges a fee to attend its annual shareholders meeting.[/b]

We aren&#39;t public. Public corporations have different rules. It&#39;s MM that they charge to attend, but there has been a fee for as long as I can remember.


The statute requires an annual meeting, and as a voting member in good standing I have a right to attend. The club cannot keep me out, whether by trying to impose a fee or otherwise.Any other reading is contrary to law.[/b]

Upon, yet again, re-re-reading the CT statute, I have to offer mea culpas and say that you are correct. They must allow a member in good standing to be present.

[mengelke]

Anyone can attend the Annual meeting without paying the convention fee. They can attend the BOD Town Hall meeting as well. Peter did that, he got to ask questions. He was very respectful and passionate about his topics.

The next day he attended a few sessions, I never say him take any of the included breaks for coffee or soda. I never saw him at lunch. The next day he wanted to attend the CRB Town Hall. Mr. Julow offered him an option. Remain quiet during the town hall and if time remained and no body had questions he would be allowed to ask a question. He decided to register and he did pay a tiered fee which is not normal but, I believe they will offer that next year.

Alot of people attend on their own nickel. The BOD has to pay the registration fee just like everything else. Yes, we get some per diem but does not come close to footing the bill. They have held sessions for drivers at great cost and very few showed up. The staff decided to focus on region officials, volunteer workers, etc. What better way to communicate all that is involved in Club Racing, Solo and Rally to this group of people.

[Bill Miller]

Anyone can attend the Annual meeting without paying the convention fee. They can attend the BOD Town Hall meeting as well. Peter did that, he got to ask questions. He was very respectful and passionate about his topics.

The next day he attended a few sessions, I never say him take any of the included breaks for coffee or soda. I never saw him at lunch. The next day he wanted to attend the CRB Town Hall. Mr. Julow offered him an option. Remain quiet during the town hall and if time remained and no body had questions he would be allowed to ask a question. He decided to register and he did pay a tiered fee which is not normal but, I believe they will offer that next year.

Alot of people attend on their own nickel. The BOD has to pay the registration fee just like everything else. Yes, we get some per diem but does not come close to footing the bill. They have held sessions for drivers at great cost and very few showed up. The staff decided to focus on region officials, volunteer workers, etc. What better way to communicate all that is involved in Club Racing, Solo and Rally to this group of people.
[/b]

Geez Mike, if you were &#39;done&#39; w/ this on the Prod board, why would you dredge this up over here?