Time for IT to go national?

[racer14itc]

Here's something I posted to the prod website regarding the "best 24 classes participate in the Runoffs" discussion. Please keep in mind that the idea of the post is to get everyone thinking about national racing as a whole and not to cast dispersions at any individuals.

In principle, I like the idea of the survival of the fittest. Introduce new classes and let them fight it out for the 24 slots at the Runoffs with the established classes. If the new classes truly are desirable then racers will migrate towards them. This will work if the CRB and BOD follow their own rules. Evil or Very Mad Unfortunately, history tells us otherwise.

Over time, I guess classes can become obsolete. The production classes just don't seem to fit the racing enthusiasts' demographic anymore. People just don't seem to want to re-engineer their cars to the level that the prod rules permit. I see fewer and fewer people who like to do their own engine work, suspension work, testing, engineering, etc. Instead it's migrated more towards the arrive and drive crowd and the growth of the spec classes probably reflects that. So if the popularity of a class wanes perhaps it should be replaced, sort of a natural evolution if you will.

It will be interesting to see if the BPrepared and Super Touring guys will quietly sit at home this year while the CSR, GTL, GT3, GP and HP guys are racing at Topeka. Wink All five of the classes I just mentioned are for the most part "tinkerer" classes and all are having trouble growing their numbers.

I long for the days when the racing was confined to just a few categories. Production, Sedan, Formula, and Sports Racers. (Did I miss any?). Now an entry form looks like alphabet soup! Even as an insider I have trouble keeping up with the class structures and additions. Can you imagine what it looks like to a newbie or outsider looking in?

Lastly, I think the BOD needs to look at the national racing structure and how regions/divisions are treating it. More and more, regions are putting on nationals as an afterthought to their regional racing programs. When was the last time you saw a stand-alone national weekend? Now the national race schedule gets crammed in with regional races, enduros, "Pro-It" races, and PDX events. And then the region's race organizers complain about the low national race turnout!! I know that I as a national racer am not interested in sitting around during the weekend watching the same SMs race 2, 3, or 4 times during the weekend while I get a measly 20 min practice (that can be shared with a regional class race group), a 25 minute qualifying session and race. Oh, and the SMs get their own race group while we (Prod and GTL) get to race with SSB, SSC, T3, etc. Rolling Eyes

If the national race program is going to be the premier amateur series put on by the SCCA then it should be treated that way by the club and regions. It's getting to the point that national races are an afterthought to the regions, IMHO. I understand totally about the financial aspects and that the regions don't want to put on unprofitable race weekends, which necessitates adding a regional race component to the weekend. But do they think about the racers, like me, who are likely to skip that national if the national racers are treated as a side show?

The whole thing has me thinking long and hard about what direction I want to go with this hobby. I have enjoyed the last 12 years immensely but as each year passes the enjoyment wanes due to the increased hassles of national racing. There doesn't seem to be a clear and concise direction that our club is heading. Rather it seems to be a compilation of various strategies being pulled in all sorts of directions by special interests and people who desire to create the "next big thing" in amateur sports car racing. Why do we need F1000? Where did Super Touring come from? FSCCA? FSCCASportsRacer (or whatever the hell it is)? Sheesh.

Everytime the "next big thing" comes along, all it does is dilute and cannibalize the current set of classes. The first to do this was Improved Touring, which basically wiped out the feeder classes to national production and GT racing. No longer did regional racers start out with a production car or sedan, now it was an improved touring car that could not migrate upwards to national racing. Then at some point that driver had to make a choice: sell what they had worked so hard to develop and buy another car to go national racing or remain in regional racing. The result was a bitter divide between national and regional racers which exists to this day. The limited prep classifications were an attempt to soothe this divide and has been moderately successful. But what if those old showroom stock cars back in the 80's had simply been classified in production or GT (with the rules sets in THOSE classes frozen or severely reined in)? Where would we be today? Now very few folks start out in a production car or GT car and this really limits the future growth of those classes. And it's now getting to the point where regions want to put on IT and SM only (and occasionally SRF) restricted regionals to increase the track time for the regional racers, since so few non-IT and non-fendered cars show up for regionals. How do you suppose THAT impacts the future growth of classes other than IT and SM??

Speaking of Spec Renault/Ford. What classes did that dilute and cannibalize? CSR? DSR? FV? FF?

What about SM? It has really hurt classes in the SEDIV such as ITB and ITC, where people used to start out in racing. Instead, people start out in SM, which is great but what about those folks that don't really want to race a Miata (a VW for example!). Now that SM is a national class, a lot of people love it because they can start out in regionals and move up to nationals without changing their car. Sound familiar?

I guess my point of this whole ramble is that there really needs to be a CLEAR direction for national racing as a whole and it needs to be WRITTEN DOWN and FOLLOWED. (what a concept). A strategy needs to be formulated, communicated to the divisional and regional level, and then monitored. Otherwise, we need not bother with a national racing program that culminates in the Runoffs.

Oh, and if we're letting "survival of the fittest" be our guide to classes at the Runoffs I recommend that the BOD let ITR==>ITC also race at the national level. It would DEFINITELY increase the car counts at national race, perhaps negating the need for National/regional weekends.

Would that mean the elimination of a prod class or two from competing at the Runoffs? Probably...but maybe it's time to move on and let the class structures that more closely fit the demographics and desires of the members take over. In the past when the discussion came up regarding national status for IT, I was against it but over the years the arguments against it became less and less convincing. Now with the free for all that has become national classing, why not? Let's face it, IT cars are what production cars were 20 years ago (rules wise) except for the engine mods. Heck, I can remember when prod cars had to run STOCK GEAR ratios. That was relaxed to allow "cheaper" alternate gear sets, if I recall correctly.

MC

[tnord]

a lot of things i agree with here, a lot of things i'm steadfastly against. i'll try and formulate a calm response.

1) survival of the fittest is absolutely the policy that should be followed.
1a) i only support the "top 24 classes at the runoffs" to include IT IF we do away with the entire regional/national distinction

2) regions should put on the races with the most profitable structure they can, regardless of national/regional status. nationals are an afterthought because there aren't as many national competitors in prod/FV/F500/CSR as there are in IT/SM. whose fault is it that a low number of national competitors show up, the event organizers or the drivers? i'm not sure that it's either, but it's absolutely NOT the event organizer's.
2a) SM gets their own group and SSC/SSB/T3/etc gets combined for purely logistical reasons. there are 30-50 SMs at a race and 20 total of the other 3. i find it absurdly arrogant for anyone to think that they deserve their own run group because they&#39;re a "national" class. give me a break. <_<

3) national racing is treated as the "premier" amatuer SCCA series. you guys get the runoffs, the TV coverage, the prime run groups, the longer races, the longer qualifying sessions, and a practice session regional drivers don&#39;t. how much more do you want to be coddled?
3a) i&#39;ve got news for you, in some instances, the national "races" are just a side show. in MiDiv, other than SM, most national races resemble a lapping day than a race. less actual racing happening and far lower car counts than the regional guys. if the regional guys are the ones financially supporting the event, how can you argue that they shouldn&#39;t be given some consideration (besides the benefits the national guys get i mentioned in #3).

4) "the next big thing" happens because there is currently a void in the existing class structure. SM happened because there was no spec sedan racing in SCCA. FSCCA happened because there was no spec formula car. F1000 happened because Atlantics are dying, and FC cars are getting very old. IIRC, FC&#39;s can all be easily converted to F1000. the new touring classes happened because of mfg support, prepared happened because well.....i&#39;m not really sure. perhaps to try and replace the slowing prod classes. new classes every so often isn&#39;t a bad thing, but new classes without eliminating old ones is.

i&#39;m tired, i&#39;m done for now.

[racer14itc]

Travis,

Your points are all valid. I just want to make it clear that I didn&#39;t post this to be a troll or to start any sort of flame war. I posted it because I think the national club racing program is broken and needs to be fixed. And for those who don&#39;t know me, my name is Mark Coffin and I raced ITC for 6 years (1996-2001) and switched to production partly because I wanted to go to the Runoffs and couldn&#39;t because of ITC not being a national class.

FWIW, I think there is a place for regional racing. It is a good, lower stress environment for people to learn to race. When they&#39;re ready to step up to nationals, then they should be able to. I think part of the reason that some might think the whole regional/national status thing should go away is that the IT racers are used to racing with top-notch, full-tilt efforts simply because those guys have nowhere to go. If IT was national, I think you&#39;d find the regional IT races a lot more laid back and lower stress.

Lastly, my comment about being grouped with SSB/SSC/T3 is primarily based on the fact that racing slick shod prod cars are WAAAY faster in the corners than the DOT guys and it just doesn&#39;t make for good racing. Nothing personal and no class snobbery intended!

Keep the ideas coming, I think this is a great opportunity for IT to go national IF the desire is there from the IT community. Who knows, if IT goes national I might come back to my roots. :happy204:

MC

[zracre]

I actually like the idea of IT going National. I am not a fan of how much money it will cost when (if) it does but we deal with that now...If they put IT national they (we) will have to completely restructure the National/Regional programs and schedules. If it was money permitting it would be cool to see a completely separate IT/SM National race schedule. That would be cool. No matter how it is done even the smallest changes affect someone good or bad.

[tnord]

i agree evan, i would be ok with IT going national if the whole shootin match got restructured. as in doing away with the distinction between regional/national. instead you could have something like a "runoffs qualifying/non qualifying" events. i wouldn&#39;t like it, because like you alluded to, it would cost more for me to maintain my current finishing spot, but i think it would be best for the club.

[ddewhurst]

For those who to date have not met Mark he is a GREAT guy. I met Mark on the IT site & then face to face during his first entry year at the Runoffs. His racing history dates a bunch earlier to the time when he was a little guy. ;)

***Over time, I guess classes can become obsolete. The production classes just don&#39;t seem to fit the racing enthusiasts&#39; demographic anymore. People just don&#39;t seem to want to re-engineer their cars to the level that the prod rules permit. I see fewer and fewer people who like to do their own engine work, suspension work, testing, engineering, etc. Instead it&#39;s migrated more towards the arrive and drive crowd and the growth of the spec classes probably reflects that. So if the popularity of a class wanes perhaps it should be replaced, sort of a natural evolution if you will.***

It is my beleif that Mark has hit the nail ^ on the head with reference to traditional Production cars (full prep turn er loose). I & others would like to prepare a 1st gen Mazda RX-7 non-ported for G Production. The response from the CRB is that "creating another level of prep is incositant with with class philosophy". In my mind being almost one of the racers Mark described above (stripped & ready for a cage 1990 Miata with hardtop for sale) the CRB response TODAY is not consistant with the entire logic of Restricted Suspension cars with Limited Prep motors. I have a 1997 Sports car article to support the Comp Board (CRB) original thought process. Not to start a fight with anyone BUT one horse the CRB let out of the barn with Restricted Suspension cars is the alternate control arm rule. Another is that after the CRB stated they will no longer class cars in full prep they included the Hybird. Full prep suspension with a Limited Prep motor pleasing a long time Production car memeber.

My 1st point is, the CRB caters to traditionalsists Production car folks but they will not create another level of prep that includes/allows more different marque Production cars. If the CRB beleives that racers that Mark described above are going to prep cars that THE CRB thinks are correct Production car classes WILL continue to dwindle. The CRB has done GREAT by adding so called Restricted Prep cars to F & E Production. Just maybe what they have missed or ignored is that there are not a large bunch of economical cars at 100 hp to class in H Production. The hp scale needs to slide upward or the dwindle continues.

My 2nd point is, that if the CRB/PCA folks would impliment identical (the 6/8 point roll cage within the tin top car cab) roll cage rules for IT & Production cars the transition (with roll cage additions/& other Prod car requirements) from IT to Production would be much more seamless similar to Regional Spec Miata to National Spec Miata. People don&#39;t always know both sets of roll cage rules at the get go & they don&#39;t always think that far ahead as would people who have been around a while.

My 3rd point is, that there is no way in hell that 5 IT classes fit into a National schedule with 4 Production classes along with all the other classes. CRB, make the transition from IT to Production more seamless so that the racers choice is as simple as a Spec Miata moving from Regional to National. Please note I didn&#39;t suggest that a car that moved to National could simply move back to IT.

This ^ of course is IMHJ ;)
David

[JoshS]

Lastly, I think the BOD needs to look at the national racing structure and how regions/divisions are treating it. More and more, regions are putting on nationals as an afterthought to their regional racing programs. When was the last time you saw a stand-alone national weekend? Now the national race schedule gets crammed in with regional races, enduros, "Pro-It" races, and PDX events. And then the region&#39;s race organizers complain about the low national race turnout!! I know that I as[/b]

I&#39;m a big advocate of IT going National. But whether or not there are standalone National weekends is a very local question. Last year, I ran 3 National-only weekends (two were doubles), in three different regions (Cal Club/SoPac, San Francisco/NorPac, and Northwest/NorPac). So they still exist at least out here on the left coast.



I have enjoyed the last 12 years immensely but as each year passes the enjoyment wanes due to the increased hassles of national racing. [/b]

I agree. That&#39;s one of the reasons I&#39;m switching to regional racing in 2007.



Oh, and if we&#39;re letting "survival of the fittest" be our guide to classes at the Runoffs I recommend that the BOD let ITR==>ITC also race at the national level. It would DEFINITELY increase the car counts at national race, perhaps negating the need for National/regional weekends.[/b]
I&#39;ve written two letters to that effect in the last year. Would love to see it happen.

[Darren]

I am going to oh so very gently tip toe out onto the ice w/this topic. Lots of thoughts right now, so pardon the randomness as I try to put some of them to print. :024:

Is the value of a Runoffs trophy really worth the increase in the cost to your race car program? There will be a lot of individual argument here, but history has shown that a "rule of thumb" in going from Regional to National racing is anywhere from 2 to 4 times your current cost (depending upon marque). This is not a simple matter of "Well, I am spending the $$$ now, so why not go National racing?" It&#39;s a case of "I am spending $5K a year now, do I want to spend $10K (or $15K, or ...) in order to merely get to the Runoffs?"

OK, now you have spent the $$$ & qualified for the Runoffs. You now have travel (to & from), lodging, food, etc., & we haven&#39;t even gotten to the spare transmission & complete spare suspension + 2 extra engines (after all, if you are planning on running w/the big dogs, you&#39;ll need a practice, qualifying & race engine). Then there is the week&#39;s vacation that will have nothing to do w/quality time spent enjoying the scenery (such as it is in KS) w/the wife & kids. :eclipsee_steering:

Now here is the really "good part" for those of you who do not want to go for the brass ring. Bubba goes & wins a National championship by 20 lengths in his $50K+ Bullsnot 3000 ITS car &, true to form, SCCA gives him: 1) a checkered flag; 2) a bottle of bubby; 3) a medal; 4) 15 minutes of fame AND (a little drum role here) a nice 50 lb lead trophy to take back to the regional racers cuz Bubba made the mistake of winning by too much!

Can SCCA add weight now? Yes, they can. But it doesn&#39;t happen overnight. (Look how long it took the CRB to even think about doing it in IT ... over 20 years). Due to its regional only status, SCCA has been kind enough to leave the class pretty much alone except for driver requested items. However, once you choose to step into the spotlight of being a potential Runoffs entrant, things will happen a lot quicker. And those things will directly & immediately affect those who enjoy the nice low key racing that IT provides. Just imagine living in a peaceful little town somewhere & then having a WalMart move in next door.

Except for the cam, pistons & cyl head mods, the original production classes (&#39;72 & earlier) were pretty much IT prep cars. The GT cars you see at any SCCA race today are the end result of what the CRB calls "rules creep". Right now SCCA promises you nothing more than a place to race in IT. But, & trust me on this one, that concept will have to go if IT goes National. The entire premise of National racing is to WIN, not to just go out & have fun w/whatever you happen to be driving. And any & all "upgrades" given to those National IT cars in the name of competitive racing WILL trickle down to the regional level (along w/the associated costs, of course).

Racers are, as a whole, very short sighted. They tend to see no more than the car/issue directly in front of them. They will only see how a ruling will benefit them. For example, they will gladly push for something that will give them 5hp ... never, for a minute, thinking that the same ruling will give someone else 10hp. The evolution from the original (pre &#39;72) production car to the current GT car was done w/almost 100% driver input (as opposed to SCCA mandated items). And those options, upgrades & mods were proposed by drivers who chose not to look at the future of the class, but only at their immediate wants.

Another downside will be reduced grid size. Ask any IT driver & he/she will tell you that is one of the major perks to running IT. Drivers who run a National schedule seldom run Regional races ... can&#39;t afford to. Without being able to quantify this loss of entrants, it is possible that the IT classes could lose their favored status at National & restricted Regional events. Face it, IT (& SM) classes are brought in as "grid fillers" cuz the OA # of IT cars means more $$$ for the sanctioning club. If the entries drop, expect that the available # of events that the average IT racer can now compete it will drop off also. Look at what IT cars (due to their #s) can run at now ... National (as supplemental classes to increase revenue), Regional, restricted Regional, enduros, road courses, oval tracks, etc.

If IT goes National, so be it. I will not flame those for wanting to do that. All I ask is that those people really, really think about not just the higher cost of racing to yourselves (which you are choosing to accept), but the increased costs that you are forcing those who enjoy the status quo to have to bear (higher cost of car prep, fewer races, smaller grids, etc.). :bash_1_:

Just some food for thought from someone who has been involved in IT racing since the beginning. B)

[racer14itc]

Old Guy,

You are right on so many counts. I wonder if as a whole, the SM community is glad that the class went national. Has that change affected SM racing at the regional level as you hypothesize for IT? If so, then that would be solid evidence in agreement with your views.

Keep the ideas flowing, this is YOUR club!

MC

[Andy Bettencourt]

As has been stated in other threads when this has come up, the fears are real in some Regions and the fears are REALIZED in others. There are Regions where National status would change NOTHING and there are Regions where it would completely change the current situation.

Same thing happened with SM.

[tnord]

I wonder if as a whole, the SM community is glad that the class went national. Has that change affected SM racing at the regional level as you hypothesize for IT? If so, then that would be solid evidence in agreement with your views.

[/b]

i would say the jury is still out on if people are happy about the national SM move. i admit to writing a letter in support of it because my hope was that people with the toter and 3 car hauler with 90k worth of cars in tow would go national racing and leave the regional guys alone.

as suggested, the prep level went up across the board, 25lbs got stamped on the 1.6L cars after one won the runoffs (i know Andy, you say the runoffs result had nothing to do with it), most regions followed the crap national spec tire rule, and SM fields at regional only events are about 1/2 the size they were the year before.

that&#39;s at least what i see from inside the dead center of the country, Kansas.

[ddewhurst]

With the Spec Miata Regional/National thing IIRC at the Sprints this year there were 27 National Spec Miata. The previous year at the Cat National when the Regional Spec Miata were invited there some where between 55/70 Regional Spec Miata. I would need to look up the results to be sure but the numbers given are close. At the two nationals this year at Blackhawk farm there were approx half the National Spec Miata that there were the year before for several Regional Spec Miata. <_<

I think without looking at numbers within the new CenDiv the total Regional car counts are down over the last 3 to 4 years. :(

***It&#39;s a case of "I am spending $5K a year now, do I want to spend $10K (or $15K, or ...) in order to merely get to the Runoffs?"***

Old Guy, not to argue with you. This ^ may be true for many but many aren&#39;t coming close to spending 10/15k to do their 4 races & go to the Runoffs. Many things you posted are very true from my perspective. :D


Have Fun ;)
David

[JohnRW]

Amen to the "Old Guy".

Old saying: "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it."

[Joe Harlan]

Amen to the "Old Guy".

Old saying: "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it."
[/b]


Ditto

[John McFarland]

I would like to say that I feel that national and regional designations should be dropped. It would be "club racing" and the top 24 classes go to the runoffs. I run a LPGP Scirocco. I run regionals because I can&#39;t afford to run nationals against the developed cars there. I run regionals for the fun, less pressure and GP is still pretty well represented regionally here in GL Div.

I started off in IT, love IT and my car was an IT car that I made into a prod car. Not to run nationals, but because of my family schedule, I could pick weekends that fit the schedule. Plus my GP car is much faster than the IT car it once was. I have less in my car than some of the fast ITB cars on the track! And I get a trophy and a victory lap every once and a while!

[RacerBill]

And I get a trophy and a victory lap every once and a while!
[/b]

Long as the nuts are not loose in the switch box!!!!!

[lateapex911]

Good points have been raised here, but using SM as a comparision might not be entirely appropriate.

SM is a very new category, and in the begining, the promise of close racing at a cheap price in a reliable, fun to drive car was a huge carrot. And lots of guys who thought, "I&#39;m a MUCH better diver, its my CAR thats holding me back, because the guys at HQ won&#39;t class it fairly" thought they&#39;d jump in SM and run right to the front. And at first, some did....the cars weren&#39;t THAT well prepped, and the fields were still forming. But gradually, as more guys decided to join the party, the guys who thought they&#39;d be stars began to discover that maybe their driving wasn&#39;t THAT good, and we&#39;re seeing some understandable loss of subscription.

Some guys of course are still crying that they ARE great drivers, but they are being outspent, and in some cases, they might just be.

The bottom line?

If you want to be at the top of a popular category/class, you&#39;re going to need lots of talent, and it&#39;s going to cost, .....

If you want to win cheap, find the smallest pond.

[mustanghammer]

Should IT go National....Yes.

In MiDiv IT cars are used as field fillers at Regional/National events and at some venues - HPT - the amount of Regional track time has decreased and may go away completely in a few years. Because of the locaton of the Run Offs MiDiv is National Racing focused in my opinion. Actually it was even before the Run Offs came to HPT, now that I think about it.

My reasons for wanting National Status

* It insures track time in my corner of the world - Regional Races get cancelled not National races in MiDiv.
* I pay almost the same entry fee as a National Racer at a R/N event but get less track time
* Newer cars are classed and raced in IT and there are more car choices in IT
* The ITAC does a better job of adding new cars
* The IT rules set is stable, easier to understand and creates a reliable race car that more people can afford
* More contengency and manuafacturer suppport.

[Joe Harlan]

Good points have been raised here, but using SM as a comparision might not be entirely appropriate.

SM is a very new category, and in the begining, the promise of close racing at a cheap price in a reliable, fun to drive car was a huge carrot. And lots of guys who thought, "I&#39;m a MUCH better diver, its my CAR thats holding me back, because the guys at HQ won&#39;t class it fairly" thought they&#39;d jump in SM and run right to the front. And at first, some did....the cars weren&#39;t THAT well prepped, and the fields were still forming. But gradually, as more guys decided to join the party, the guys who thought they&#39;d be stars began to discover that maybe their driving wasn&#39;t THAT good, and we&#39;re seeing some understandable loss of subscription.

Some guys of course are still crying that they ARE great drivers, but they are being outspent, and in some cases, they might just be.

The bottom line?

If you want to be at the top of a popular category/class, you&#39;re going to need lots of talent, and it&#39;s going to cost, .....

If you want to win cheap, find the smallest pond.
[/b]

Yeah Jake if you ignore the rules creep that started as soon as SM went national then your right the examples have not been good ones. As far as everything should cost what it cost argument you are starting to sound like Mattberg with that stuff. The Cup guys would never have replacements if there were not local dirt tracks to get guys started.

[RacerBill]

Seriously, back in the 60&#39;s the thought was that racers built a regional motor to last 15 minutes and a national motor to run 30 minutes. With the implication that the 30 minute motor cost more than the 15 minute motor. I think that if IT went National, then the folks who wanted to go to the Runoffs, and run the longer races would move in that direction. And those who did not want to spend as much, would stay with regional races. We are stipulating that there would be no differences in the rules between national and regional IT classes.

But there would be more choices for us (not always a good thing!!!). Do I race regionals or nationals? Do I go to the June Sprints and the Runoffs, or do I go to the IT Fest and the ARRC. Would there be someone who put a lot of bucks into his car and still run regionals instead of nationals? Probably, but what&#39;s different with than compared to what we got now.

I guess that originally I was against IT going national, but I can see the benefits to the club overall of increasing the car counts at nationals (some regions are doing this artificially by adding restricted regionals to their nationals). This would also provide a path from regional racing to national racing and the runoffs(no guarantee anymore - only as long as the classes are in the top 24!).

Go to go for now.

[ddewhurst]

*** It insures track time in my corner of the world - Regional Races get cancelled not National races in MiDiv.***

This post is not aimed at Scott BUT maybe it&#39;s time for Regional IT racers to quit supporting the National races. I read that more & more of this IT racers supporting National races across the U.S. If Regions started loosing money maybe the Regions & the CRB will start listening a little bit to the Regional customers. Hence making the transission/classing from IT to Production more seamless. Moving back to IT from Production would not be seamless nor should it be IMHJ.

The only race that I know of in CenDiv area 4 that invites IT Regional racers to a National was the Cat National at Road America. Once the Spec Miata came along the Region said adios to the IT classes & started inviting the Regional Spec Miata to the Cat National & now there is no Regional cars at the Cat National IIRC.

Have Fun ;)
David

[Darren]

RacerBill ... "We are stipulating that there would be no differences in the rules between National & Regional IT classes."

2007 SCCA Rulebook 9.1.3.B ... "Entrants shall not be guaranteed the competitiveness of any car, & competition adjustments, other than as outlined in section 9.1.3.C, are not allowed." :018:

Does anyone seriously believe for one minute that someone would be willing to spend the time & $$$ to build a Nationally competitive IT car w/that rule in place? Especially since every other (non spec) class in SCCA has some form of competition adjustment.

[lateapex911]

RacerBill ... "We are stipulating that there would be no differences in the rules between National & Regional IT classes."

2007 SCCA Rulebook 9.1.3.B ... "Entrants shall not be guaranteed the competitiveness of any car, & competition adjustments, other than as outlined in section 9.1.3.C, are not allowed." :018:

Does anyone seriously believe for one minute that someone would be willing to spend the time & $$$ to build a Nationally competitive IT car w/that rule in place? Especially since every other (non spec) class in SCCA has some form of competition adjustment. [/b]

Actually, yes. I think perception of fair treatment is important, and I bet more people out there are happier with the method the ITAC uses than the Prod guys.

[Greg Amy]

Does anyone seriously believe for one minute that someone would be willing to spend the time & $$$ to build a Nationally competitive IT car w/that rule in place?[/b]
Crap, Dude, what are we doing now...?

[Darren]

ddewhurst ... "... maybe it&#39;s time for IT racers to quit supporting the National races. I read more & more that IT racers are supporting National races across the U.S."

Interesting concept. However, I think that the IT racers might be shooting themselves in the foot here for the very reason you stated ... "Once SM came along, the Region said adios to the IT classes." It looks as tho SM has taken over as the Big Dog on the porch from IT (in terms of entry #s).

[Knestis]

I&#39;ve been watching this one percolate for a while, before sharing some thoughts based on having been around for a while. In no particular order...

** It may be a false assumption that SCCA Nationals are the premier amateur race series. First, the distinction between "amateur" and "professional" in this game is meaningless. Second, it must be clarified if we are talking about "premier-ness" as a result of the policy inputs (Nationals rise to the top) or as assumptions - Nationals should be treated as the pinnacle, so they get more track time, etc. As Travis (et al.) point out, by many measures, National races are not typically superior to Regionals (car counts, competitiveness, ability to generate revenue) but by others, they may be (TV exposure?).

** It&#39;s equally not safe to assume that "National status" will make IT more expensive. It might encourage some entrants to commit more $$ to their programs in an effort to win a National Championship but in all likelihood, it will still probably cost about as much to be about as competitive as any given entrant is now. No - you won&#39;t be able to win on TV from Topeka for the same money you can currently win a NW Region ITC championship but it would be silly to expect that to be the case.

** If you haven&#39;t read Old Guy&#39;s post on p. 1 of this thread, you need to. His point about increased attention and application of real competition adjustments (bleah!) should scare anyone who thinks National status - under current policies and all other things being equal - is a good idea.

** Andy&#39;s point about different outcomes in different regions is a great one. Remember that your experiences may be different than others&#39;.

** We need to be cautious about assuming that changes in SM participation numbers is an outcome attributable to the class going National. The dynamic has been nutso in that class since its inception and it&#39;s just possible that there are other factors at work there - like the realization for some that "spec" doesn&#39;t mean "equal," and that the $5000 competitive SM is a myth.

** All that said, the National/Regional distinction doesn&#39;t make a lot of sense to me in some important ways. I can see the value of regions having room to create classes that don&#39;t fit nationwide (as opposed to National) priorities. However, IT is a category recognized across the US. At face value, this seems out of whack.

** I&#39;ve said it before: The ITAC, its hard work, and the "fixing" of some of IT&#39;s issues is both a blessing and a curse. We&#39;ve grown awfully comfy with the ITAC&#39;s handling of issues but rest assured - increased attention is almost certainly going to result in greater political pressures being exerted on the category. IT might only be as successful as it is today BECAUSE it spent 20 years in stasis, ignored by the rules makers...

At the end of the day, I don&#39;t know that I really care. I ask myself if I would do anything differently with my racing, were ITB to become a National class - the answer I think is "no." I tend to stay close to home, spend my money on entries and the car rather than travel, and strive for efficiency rather than championships. I could enter the Oak Tree National at VIR, that would fit into my schedule nicely but otherwise... Eh.

Equally, I wonder how IT would change for me, if it made the Bigs. I doubt that a change in status would change my budget, since I HAVE a budget and decide what to do with a set amount of dough. But then, I define fun in terms of actual moments out on the track - driving AND racing. The good catch, the tidy pass, the goofy stuff that makes you laugh in your helmet. But that&#39;s just my priorities. I&#39;m kind of an oddball too, in that I like the enduros and other kinds of racing, and I have no illusions about "climbing the ladder of motorsports" to some professional end. That ain&#39;t how it works, I know it, and that understanding clarifies a lot of things for me that confuse some other folks, I think...

K

[Darren]

lateapex911 ... "Actually, yes, I think perception of fair treatment is important, & I bet more people out there are happier w/the method the ITAC uses than the Prod guys."

Don&#39;t flatter yourself. Things were supposed to change w/the introduction of the Ad Hoc groups. All it did was give the CB/CRB another place to bury items they do not want to deal with. I&#39;ve had a request buried somewhere in that circus tent for almost a year now. Hell, it wasn&#39;t even a personal item, but a general one that made the racers&#39; life easier & took you guys out of the micro-management business (which is probably why it remains buried).

And I am still looking at a response that Andy gave to me on a car weight. The logic of that response was lost in the absolute absurdity of his thought process.

From what I have seen of late, it appears that your idea of "fair treatment" is everyone getting the same amount of ineptitude.

As far as being "... happier w/the method ...", I will give you that one only because the IT Ad Hoc group has not been drawn into the "equivalency wars" that the GT, Production & Touring Ad Hoc groups have had to deal w/for years. You stick a car in a class, & if nobody races it for 3/4/5 years, you all go DUH & reclassify it. Ya gotta admit, there ain&#39;t a lot of thought process going on here. And that was my point when I quoted 9.1.3.B. The National IT guys are not going to be willing to do business as usual in that sense (9.1.3.B). At that point in time, the Ad Hoc group will be brought into having to deal w/who gets what (ala GT, Production, etc.). Put another way, nobody gets a free pass in this move.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Don&#39;t flatter yourself. Things were supposed to change w/the introduction of the Ad Hoc groups. All it did was give the CB/CRB another place to bury items they do not want to deal with. I&#39;ve had a request buried somewhere in that circus tent for almost a year now. Hell, it wasn&#39;t even a personal item, but a general one that made the racers&#39; life easier & took you guys out of the micro-management business (which is probably why it remains buried).[/b]

Well, you would be wrong. The CRB is looking at &#39;processes&#39; similar to what we use for IT in both Prod and GT. There are so many variables to account for, I am not sure it can work BUT they ARE looking at it seriously. The day to day shucking and jiving requests and weights and all the BS associated with those classes is wearing thin on everyone.

And I am still looking at a response that Andy gave to me on a car weight. The logic of that response was lost in the absolute absurdity of his thought process.[/b]

This is what you wrote:
My point was that someone in SCCA w/fat fingers input the incorrect weight when the Sentra/B13 1.6 was moved from ITA to ITB. Where this affects him is that, since they are using the SCCA listed weight of 2,520 lbs, he is being penalized for what is an SCCA oversight!!! I notice that you side stepped that issue altogether. Correct the obvious error on this end (thru E&O), & you will automatically fix his problem also.[/b]

Please enlighten us as to why you think a car doesn&#39;t have to gain weight when moving from ITA to ITB. Help us understand your distain and &#39;fat-finger&#39; comments. I have a feeling you just don&#39;t understand.


From what I have seen of late, it appears that your idea of "fair treatment" is everyone getting the same amount of ineptitude.[/b]

Please expand. Are you not liking the &#39;process&#39;? Do you see major flaws? Do you see major errors in the results? Please explain. If we are screwing up, we need to know. Please.

The CRB has really put real responsibility on the AdHocs. If you have an &#39;issue&#39; that you feel has been buried, please restate it to the CRB - and even here. Maybe we can give you a quick answer.

Seriously, respond to all the above. You failed to in the other thread.

[Knestis]

...And I am still looking at a response that Andy gave to me on a car weight. The logic of that response was lost in the absolute absurdity of his thought process.

From what I have seen of late, it appears that your idea of "fair treatment" is everyone getting the same amount of ineptitude. ...[/b]

Well, that lasted a long time - one whole page. My respect for this particular Old Guy&#39;s point of view, that is. Endorsement retracted.

K

[RSTPerformance]

I can&#39;t handle reading all of this AGAIN but.... My brief comments...

First as said multiple times, my opinion on this changes from week to week, and post to post as this topic comes up everytime we all get bored, and then it is the same people hashing it out arguing about the same issues, its generally just another new person whom gets the fights going and is bashed to ___ . (Not always an unjust thing to do BTW ;) )

Like I said my opinion changes from week to week.

I am 100% against all classes being eligable for both Regional and National, however sometimes I think that it is pointless to have National and Regional distinctions and everything should just be combined into something like "Club Racing" (and then have "Pro Racing" as it is now). With that though I would support individualy restricted "club races" for Open wheel, closed wheel, IT, GT, Prod, Etc. This would all depend on a regions "managment" and its members wants/needs which would probably depend on the regions #&#39;s and profatability of such events.

On the other hand, we have a good thing going... In most parts of the country I firmly believe that IT races are the best races to watch or participate in every week. Sure it doesn&#39;t make us money, but it is the best racing IMO. On top of this we have a great following and some Specificly great events such as the ARRC, and the future IT Festival. If we were a "national Class" we would all have to go to Topeka to show off, and realisticly who wants that??? lol

Raymond "All in all enjoy what we have, it wont last forever" Blethen

[lateapex911]

lateapex911 ... "Actually, yes, I think perception of fair treatment is important, & I bet more people out there are happier w/the method the ITAC uses than the Prod guys."

Don&#39;t flatter yourself.
[/b]

Note I said "I bet"....you know why I said that? Because thats what epople have told ME...not exactly me flattering myself. But I do agree with it wholeheartedly.


Things were supposed to change w/the introduction of the Ad Hoc groups. All it did was give the CB/CRB another place to bury items they do not want to deal with. [/b]
Huh?? I&#39;ll check in the ITACs "Secret Chamber of buried items" and get back to you...


I&#39;ve had a request buried somewhere in that circus tent for almost a year now. Hell, it wasn&#39;t even a personal item, but a general one that made the racers&#39; life easier & took you guys out of the micro-management business (which is probably why it remains buried).[/b]

Ahhh...the chip on the shoulder begins to appear...still have no idea what you&#39;re talking about though.....


And I am still looking at a response that Andy gave to me on a car weight. The logic of that response was lost in the absolute absurdity of his thought process.[/b]

Again, huh? Be specific and show us the lack of logic with facts..I seem to recall the explanation(s) were pretty obvious.


From what I have seen of late, it appears that your idea of "fair treatment" is everyone getting the same amount of ineptitude.[/b]

gee, thanks!


As far as being "... happier w/the method ...", I will give you that one only because the IT Ad Hoc group has not been drawn into the "equivalency wars" that the GT, Production & Touring Ad Hoc groups have had to deal w/for years. [/b]

No, it&#39;s because the IT guys (ITAC) created architecture (Performance envelopes for each class), then created a process which is documentable, and repeatable to organize the category. People can come to me or Andy or nearly anyone on the ITTAC, and say, "Here are the specs on my car, what would it weigh if it were to be classed?" and get an answer. And once the weights are set, it&#39;s not easy to change them, or get the car moved. The ITAC knows that one of the key elements IT drivers like is stability, and the lack of Prod style year to year dicking with weights and ratios and compression...when you talk to lots of IT drivers about going to Prod, their eyes glaze over, the hair stands up on the back of their neck, and they mutter about "comp adjustments" and back away like you&#39;re the devil, LOL.


The National IT guys are not going to be willing to do business as usual in that sense (9.1.3. B) . At that point in time, the Ad Hoc group will be brought into having to deal w/who gets what (ala GT, Production, etc.). Put another way, nobody gets a free pass in this move. [/b]

IF IT goes National...it&#39;s my promise that I will hold the line, and I think every one of the other 9 guys on the ITAC will agree. You don&#39;t know what gets discussed on con calls, and you have no idea of the ideas that have been kicked around...the ITAC has done a good job digging it&#39;s heels in and drawing the line.

Look....... IT is popular, (IMHO) for these main reasons:

-The ruleset...not too much (don&#39;t HAVE to be a degreed motorsports engineer) , not too little (cars are fun to drive because you can do easy and cool stuff to them)

- The stability and category management (more of a reson for good return rates, actually)

- The flexibilty afforded by the ruleset, which means you can build as you go it thats your pleasure.

- Easily available cars that peolple identify with.

Which all adds up to good racing.

Any change to the stature of IT can NOT change those basic cornerstones. and as long as I&#39;m involved, I&#39;ll work to ensure they stay.

Finally, anyone who wishes to contact me via PMs or my email (in my sig) should sign their name...if they expect a response or any credibility at all. Hint hint.

[lateapex911]

** Andy&#39;s point about different outcomes in different regions is a great one. Remember that your experiences may be different than others&#39;.

[/b]

I agree with all the points Kirks made, but this one (Andy&#39;s actually) stands out. We hear that IT going National will put an end to "fun racing" because the "Big guys" will ruin it and the little guys will just go home.

But, if you look around, there&#39;s an amazing corrollary....the fastest cars come from the areas with the best participation. Seems obvious, until you look at the prediction that the little guys will go away when the fast guys start racing in their little sandbox. Not necessarily so. Look at NE: Greg Amy won the ARRCs...and Bettencourt had his number at a number of races...plus quite a few others nipping at their heels. Tough crowd, right? yup...but ITA often saw 20 -30 car fields. The little guys didn&#39;t stay away. Nor did they when Serra was running...and ended up winning the ARRCs in ITA as well.

And look at the middle of the country..I get the impression Ruck races in a big class...and he also stands on the ARRC podium pretty regularly.

So, it is not a sure thing that the little guys will disappear just becuse the best in the country race in your backyard.



** I&#39;ve said it before: The ITAC, its hard work, and the "fixing" of some of IT&#39;s issues is both a blessing and a curse. We&#39;ve grown awfully comfy with the ITAC&#39;s handling of issues but rest assured - increased attention is almost certainly going to result in greater political pressures being exerted on the category. IT might only be as successful as it is today BECAUSE it spent 20 years in stasis, ignored by the rules makers...[/b]

I think IT has been as popular as it has been is mostly due to the combination the ruleset and the easy access nature of the class. We can never lose that.

[Bill Miller]

lateapex911 ... "Actually, yes, I think perception of fair treatment is important, & I bet more people out there are happier w/the method the ITAC uses than the Prod guys."

Don&#39;t flatter yourself. Things were supposed to change w/the introduction of the Ad Hoc groups. All it did was give the CB/CRB another place to bury items they do not want to deal with. I&#39;ve had a request buried somewhere in that circus tent for almost a year now. Hell, it wasn&#39;t even a personal item, but a general one that made the racers&#39; life easier & took you guys out of the micro-management business (which is probably why it remains buried).

And I am still looking at a response that Andy gave to me on a car weight. The logic of that response was lost in the absolute absurdity of his thought process.

From what I have seen of late, it appears that your idea of "fair treatment" is everyone getting the same amount of ineptitude.

As far as being "... happier w/the method ...", I will give you that one only because the IT Ad Hoc group has not been drawn into the "equivalency wars" that the GT, Production & Touring Ad Hoc groups have had to deal w/for years. You stick a car in a class, & if nobody races it for 3/4/5 years, you all go DUH & reclassify it. Ya gotta admit, there ain&#39;t a lot of thought process going on here. And that was my point when I quoted 9.1.3.B. The National IT guys are not going to be willing to do business as usual in that sense (9.1.3.B). At that point in time, the Ad Hoc group will be brought into having to deal w/who gets what (ala GT, Production, etc.). Put another way, nobody gets a free pass in this move.
[/b]


I&#39;m not going to waste a whole lot of time on this one. Needless to say OG, besides not having much of a clue, you&#39;re pretty rude for someone who&#39;s only been around for a couple of months and doesn&#39;t have the sack to use his real name. Others have come before you, and others will come after you, but one thing&#39;s pretty much a given, if you don&#39;t have the sack to stand behind what you post by using your real name, don&#39;t expect too many people to pay any attention to you.


Now, on to the business of this thread. Andy&#39;s comment is spot on, IT going National will have a different impact in different parts of the country. I also think that the &#39;no guarantee&#39; clause will need to come out, if IT goes National. But then again, I&#39;ve felt that it should have been removed years ago (about the same time the dual-purpose language was removed). Those that think that just because a Wombat XCR wins the Runoffs, that every Wombat XCR will get a lead trophy haven&#39;t really been paying attention. They do that in Prod and GT because they have no idea how they got to where they are. Whereas IT has developed a proactive, objective process for classifying cars and setting spec weights. And as more data come in, the model gets refined (see changes in FWD adders for faster classes). And from that standpoint, I see IT going National as an upside. You&#39;ll for sure get more people that will bring their A game, so you&#39;ll get a better picture of the true performance potential for a given car. I don&#39;t see how that&#39;s a bad thing. And if a car&#39;s true potential doesn&#39;t fit the model, you&#39;ve got the ability to adjust the weight. That exists today, via PCA&#39;s.

I personally don&#39;t see anything wrong w/ balancing performance w/ weight. I don&#39;t have any fear that IT will ever go the Prod route w/ choke size adjustments, alternate brakes, etc. etc. What you&#39;ll have, is a category w/ a stable ruleset where the cars are spec&#39;d by an objective process. As an outsider, I would see that as much more attractive than some other category where things are much more of a moving target.

[Ron]

Just a question, the prod guys and there constant rules mdifications, is that based on how the cars do at the runoffs? What I am getting at is that my little ITB Mustang runs great at Roebling Road, nice fast sweeping turns with not a lot of stop and go. At Road Atlanta it is different, hills, big brake zones and our gear ratios don&#39;t work out well. Thats racing, some cars are better than others at certain tracks. I can hold David Lera in his Golf off at Roebling Road, at Road Atlanta he gets me.
Are too much of the rules changes in the national classes based to much on one race weekend?

By the way I am all for SCCA reducing the number of classes across the board. In GT, Open and closed wheel, and yes put IT in with prod. I think NASA is strting to do this.

[RacerBill]

I agree with all the points Kirks made, but this one (Andy&#39;s actually) stands out. We hear that IT going National will put an end to "fun racing" because the "Big guys" will ruin it and the little guys will just go home.

But, if you look around, there&#39;s an amazing corrollary....the fastest cars come from the areas with the best participation. Seems obvious, until you look at the prediction that the little guys will go away when the fast guys start racing in their little sandbox. Not necessarily so. Look at NE: Greg Amy won the ARRCs...and Bettencourt had his number at a number of races...plus quite a few others nipping at their heels. Tough crowd, right? yup...but ITA often saw 20 -30 car fields. The little guys didn&#39;t stay away. Nor did they when Serra was running...and ended up winning the ARRCs in ITA as well.

And look at the middle of the country..I get the impression Ruck races in a big class...and he also stands on the ARRC podium pretty regularly.

So, it is not a sure thing that the little guys will disappear just becuse the best in the country race in your backyard.
I think IT has been as popular as it has been is mostly due to the combination the ruleset and the easy access nature of the class. We can never lose that.
[/b]

Here, Here!!!!!!! :023: :023: :023:

[RacerBill]

I am not in favor of combining National and Regional races into just one big catagory of &#39;club races&#39; Aside from being qualifying races for the Runoffs, National and Regional races generally are different distances with National races requiring more attention to tire management, etc.

I am still on the fence as far as IT going National. I see pros and cons. On one hand, I would not like to see the prestige of the ARRC deminished. Atlanta has built up this event on there own and deserves a lot of credit. But it would sure be nice to see IT receive some TV air time that in some form or another we help fund being members of the SCCA (or USSR, I mean USCR - Union of Sports Car Regions -tongue out of cheek now).

[gran racing]

But it would sure be nice to see IT receive some TV air time[/b]

I used to think it would be cool to have our races on TV a 3:30 a.m. LOL

(Not picking on you Bill, but other than for other IT drivers does the t.v. time really mean much given aired time?)


until you look at the prediction that the little guys will go away when the fast guys start racing in their little sandbox. Not necessarily so. Look at NE: Greg Amy won the ARRCs...and Bettencourt had his number at a number of races...plus quite a few others nipping at their heels. Tough crowd, right? yup...but ITA often saw 20 -30 car fields. The little guys didn&#39;t stay away. Nor did they when Serra was running...and ended up winning the ARRCs in ITA as well.[/b]

I&#39;m not entirely sure what the effect would be nor is anyone else. That is part of the problem with this decision. Jake, you are correct in your evaluation of today&#39;s IT world. I do wonder what would happen if the fast drivers with goobs of money and development in their cars becomes much more of the norm. I can&#39;t help but wonder what I would have done when looking into IT if that were the case. I do know it would have been more intimidating to start racing.

Possibly this is way off base, but I somewhat think look at the ARRC as a case study. Yes I know, there are many differences but that&#39;s just what comes to mind. The ARRC is a regional that anyone can who races in IT can participate just like any other regional race. It just so happens that the region did a fantastic job building the hype up about this event and it draws many top IT racers to it each year. When talking to people who are either mid or toward the back of the pack, they often choose not to attend because of the money and talent that will be at that particular event. If the "ARRC caliber of racers & cars" becomes the standard, will people be more tempted to find an alternative to IT and even SCCA?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Good question Dave. What I think is reality however is that when you look at each National in it&#39;s own fishbowl, you will see the same spread of talent and prep that you see at every NARRC IT race. There are fast guys in fast cars, fast guys in slow cars, slow guys in fast cars and slow guys in slow cars (actually, this isn&#39;t true becasue that would assume 4 drivers in each class and most classes can&#39;t muster that!!! :lol: )

True racers seek competition and strive to get better every week. In all forms of racing (and life) you will find people who seek out the easiest path...should we create a place for mediocrity to flourish? I can&#39;t think of a form of racing where it isn&#39;t intimdating to a nOOb when they look at the current winners...but everyone had to start somewhere. Did you ever think when you started that you would start the 2007 season with a Pro motor?

Like I said before, in some regions national status changes nothing, in some it would change their racing culture forever. We just have to decide if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

[lateapex911]

I used to think it would be cool to have our races on TV a 3:30 a.m. LOL

(Not picking on you Bill, but other than for other IT drivers does the t.v. time really mean much given aired time?)



I&#39;m not entirely sure what the effect would be nor is anyone else. That is part of the problem with this decision. Jake, you are correct in your evaluation of today&#39;s IT world. I do wonder what would happen if the fast drivers with goobs of money and development in their cars becomes much more of the norm.
[/b]

Dave, remember Hoosiers? The movie about the underdog college basketball team. And when they went to the big game the coach made them measure the hoop height and the foul line?? He was making the point that the court was the same, and nothing else mattered. It was about the team, not the stadium...

Fancy trailers, nice rigs and great decals don&#39;t make a racecar, and we know that. Sure, super jammy this and that add a bit, but lets face it, there are diminishing returns. The ruleset does a pretty good job of not allowing you to spend money. No super pimp wings that rip off and bend every time you brush a tire wall, no carbon fibre hoods/fenders/flares to be replaced constantly, no huge Brembo brake allowances, no bigbucks valve spring allowances and so on. Want to spend $6K on dampers? Go ahead...are they $4600 better than a $1600 set? Doubt it. 99% of us would be better off using the $4500 to go to more events and test more.

(That said, is there room at the top for improvement? Sorry to say, yes, I think there has to be, as proud as we are of our top IT dogs. History has shown that when some of our better IT guys graduate, they struggle on teams with known "pros"...I can think of several examples. But can also think of an exception too. ;) ) But, yes, if lots of big money came...combined with big talent, then the top eschelon could get jacked up a bit. But I don&#39;t see the classes being redefined as some do by that possibility.

And lets not be too sure the money would automatically fly into IT, just because it&#39;s a National class....look at the other National classes.

As you point out, the ARRCs are just a regional, and lack the prestige that the Runoffs have......but even so, the Runoffs drew TEN classes (of 25 total!) that had the same or less entrants than the ARRCs had for ITA!

Thats right, of 25 classes, 10 couldn&#39;t be bothered to show up to run the National Chamionship at the same participation level as a regional in Atlanta that is said to have the best of the best.....the carrot of a National Runoffs invite isn&#39;t the huge carrot it&#39;s cracked up to be, evidently, or more than 25 guys might have bothered to show up.

Again, I think that IT is popular because of the ruleset...and I think that would make it a popular National category...and it would be even more important to be triple extra vigilant about protecting the foundation and core of that ruleset..

[gran racing]

True racers seek competition and strive to get better every week. In all forms of racing (and life) you will find people who seek out the easiest path...should we create a place for mediocrity to flourish?[/b]

I do not believe we should create a place for mediocrity to flourish. My concern isn’t so much what impact this will have on what it takes to win, just what effect it will have on SCCA’s entry level class and the impact to actually enter (regardless if it’s a reality or perception).


I can&#39;t think of a form of racing where it isn&#39;t intimdating to a nOOb when they look at the current winners...but everyone had to start somewhere. Did you ever think when you started that you would start the 2007 season with a Pro motor? [/b]

Some forms and classes of racing are less intimidating than others. To answer your other question, I would have been surprised to believe my racing package would be where it will be in 2007. I will say that I have always been extremely determined and hungry to continually reach new levels in racing, so maybe it shouldn&#39;t be too surprising. If I hadn&#39;t destroyed my bondo sponsored car in &#39;06 and used the extra time working a part time job, it wouldn&#39;t have happened this year. It&#39;s funny how things work out.


Fancy trailers, nice rigs and great decals don&#39;t make a racecar, and we know that. Sure, super jammy this and that add a bit, but lets face it, there are diminishing returns. The ruleset does a pretty good job of not allowing you to spend money. No super pimp wings that rip off and bend every time you brush a tire wall, no carbon fibre hoods/fenders/flares to be replaced constantly, no huge Brembo brake allowances, no bigbucks valve spring allowances and so on. Want to spend $6K on dampers? Go ahead...are they $4600 better than a $1600 set? Doubt it. 99% of us would be better off using the $4500 to go to more events and test more.[/b]

I agree, but only up to a point. There are two aspects of this, the first being mental. Since I mentioned my idea of the ARRC being a case study: When I was considering going to the ARRC in ’05, I was very intimidated by the thought. I kept thinking I totally be out of my league. The thought of me showing up with my rusty car on a tow dolly next to some of those huge rigs. Let’s just say I made numerous excuses of why I couldn’t go and the only reason I did was because Melissa convinced me that one day I would look back and regret it. I later found out that one of the top drivers even said “Dave’s really bringing that thing down to the ARRC??” In this case I had a racecar; the risk and investment wasn’t as great as it would be to start racing.

While the Hoosier movie reference is nice, racing is about man and machine. Sure, I believe that especially in the club level if someone focuses hard enough on the driver they can overcome what my lack in budget compared to other drivers. It’s great that the importance of the machine is somewhat kept in check in IT. At that same time without the money, it is not possible to obtain a nearly optimum racing package (driver and racecar).

This is a tough one and I certainly don&#39;t claim to know the answer.

[lateapex911]

Since I mentioned my idea of the ARRC being a case study: When I was considering going to the ARRC in &#39;05, I was very intimidated by the thought. I kept thinking I totally be out of my league. The thought of me showing up with my rusty car on a tow dolly next to some of those huge rigs. Let&#39;s just say I made numerous excuses of why I couldn&#39;t go .....[/b]

Hmmm. well, what if.........what if you&#39;d been racing around New England, and you had done pretty well, scored some good finishes, and you looked at your points accumulation and saw you were in the eschelon that got a Runoffs invite?? You&#39;d be less intimidated, I&#39;d think.* ..


and the only reason I did was because Melissa convinced me that one day I would look back and regret it. [/b]

You have a great wife........ ;) .... nice choice.


...At that same time without the money, it is not possible to obtain a nearly optimum racing package (driver and racecar).

[/b]

Agreed, my point was that it&#39;s not JUST about money...it&#39;s all relative.

* The upside to earning a spot at the Runoffs, as opposed to just showing up at the ARRCs is that you earned it, and you know you should be there. The downside is the need to follow the system that takes you to different tracks all over the area, and that can get $$. The silver lining to the travel aspect is that the guys who don&#39;t care to follow the National "tour" just stay near home and race, and they don&#39;t lose sleep when the fast guys are no shows because they only race where they have to to make the show. On the other hand, that has a downside too...less competition at some races. The joy of the ARRCs is the fact that you just show up. We&#39;d have to have like 62 cars before we start worrying about qualifying for the IT_ race!

[JoshS]

I do wonder what would happen if the fast drivers with goobs of money and development in their cars becomes much more of the norm. I can&#39;t help but wonder what I would have done when looking into IT if that were the case. I do know it would have been more intimidating to start racing. [/b]
I&#39;ve said this before, and I stand by it: I don&#39;t think that the average IT car at your average regional race would look any different than it does today. People run National schedules don&#39;t have the time or money to also run regional weekends (unless they are combined regional/national races).

Look at the T2 cars that show up to your regionals. Would they be out there winning nationals? In general, no. Same for IT.

There are exceptions to every rule of course, but generally speaking, I think you&#39;d raise the popularity and awareness of IT, without affecting "the little guy."

[gran racing]

My comparison was the large number of top drivers at the ARRC has could become the norm at regional races. For an outsider, their perceived barrier to entry may be greater. I could be wrong here, but that did come to mind.

(It wasn&#39;t a comparison of the ARRC to the Runoffs.)

[RacerBill]

I used to think it would be cool to have our races on TV a 3:30 a.m. LOL

(Not picking on you Bill, but other than for other IT drivers does the t.v. time really mean much given aired time?)

[/b]

No problem. I was just speculating. And, by the way, I did try to watch all the runoff races this year, 1) to watch some of my friends, 2) to watch some great racers, 3) to watch some under dogs really shine, and 4) hopefully to see some great races (there were one or two).

As to the backmarkers being intimadated by the front of the fields and dropping out....

Racers will stop racing when is stops being fun. Period. Dot. Dot. Dash...... For whatever reason, including hassles from the family.

I was lucky enough to live within earshot of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway at a point in time when some of the cars were brought to the track in open trailers, not big rigs.

I race at Mid-Ohio with 4 of the 6 fastest ITA cars at the ARRC. And when I get the car to a point where it is dependable, I will start racing farther away from home - LRP, WGI, Pocono, NHIS where I cut my teeth 40 years ago, ORP - don&#39;t know why except it was my home track for 10 years, and yes, Road Atlanta for the ARRC.

Last October I spent $400 - $500 for the weekend and did not get to complete one lap (clutch grenade) but having the guys on the hill pitch in an try to get me out was worth... as the ad says - priceless!

That is what IT racing is about. I don&#39;t think that making IT a National class will change that a bit.

Another thing that makes IT what it is, is the rules package (others have said that in this thread). I was thinking about trying to get in some more seat time with another sanctioning body, but I am intimidated by trying to add up and subtract all the points just to find out what class I would run in.

Here&#39;s what I think will happen if IT goes National. Some people will race Regionals, like they do today. I love the idea of regional that are enduros an plan to run one at some time. Some will go the National route, if the Runnoffs is their goal, or if they like longer races. Some will do both. Whatever, we will have a group of classes that gives a racer has a broad range of choices at a reasonable price (ok, nothing in racing is reasonable, relatively resonable then?)

The term &#39;entry level&#39; is very relative. What&#39;s entry level to one person may be out of reach for another. I remember a HP Sprite driver who&#39;s wife got a big enheritance and bought a Lola T70 and went Can-Am racing. Where you jump into racing depends on your goals and your budget. I also remember drivers who could have bought (and did later buy) an Indy car team but started their race career in a G-Prod Spitfire.

Sorry, rant mode off. I am not angry or upset at anyone&#39;s points of view. I just hope to add my views on where IT should be going.

Love you guys. Can&#39;t wait till August!

[ddewhurst]

***I was lucky enough to live within earshot of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway at a point in time when some of the cars were brought to the track in open trailers, not big rigs. ***

Bill, did you ever see Roger someone from Minnesota who came to indy with his car in a yellow converted school buss. Maybe in the 60&#39;s.

Have Fun ;)
David

[RacerBill]

Bill, did you ever see Roger someone from Minnesota who came to indy with his car in a yellow converted school buss. Maybe in the 60&#39;s.

Have Fun ;)
David
[/b]

Dave: I moved to Indy in 83. There was a group from Michagan that came in a school bus and parked down the block for us - AJ Foyt fans.

Come to the IT Fest and I can share a bunch of stories.

[ddewhurst]

***Come to the IT Fest and I can share a bunch of stories.***

Bill, ^ could be fun. I worked for Bowsher during 68, 69 & 70 & you know who was contracted to drive one of his cars. Stories galroe about that driver from Texas.

Have Fun ;)
David

[Darren]

OK, folks, after benching myself for a few days for "conduct unbecoming", I am ready to settle down & deal w/issues in a little different light. Tho I have known it for a long, long time, I still occasionally forget that the right things can, indeed, be said the wrong way.

To those who personally took me to task:

Knestis ... Probably the one comment that really hit home.

Bill Miller ... Please do not confuse my enthusiasm for the IT class of racing w/the ravings of the village idiot (tho, in hindsight, it would have been easy to do so this time).

Jake ... I assume that the "hint, hint" was directed at me. Sorry, I thought that a PM has a name attached like any other email.

Andy ... As you are already aware, I have some issues that the CRB needs to correct. :D I will PM them to you individually as they do not apply to this thread.

The "downside" w/these types of forums is that just about everything discussed would make for no more than a lively dinner conversation, but w/out facial expressions & conversational inflections, they can, & do, take on a more adversarial tone. :birra:

Pardon me, but I have to get back to sweeping up this mess I made.

[lateapex911]

Jake ... I assume that the "hint, hint" was directed at me. Sorry, I thought that a PM has a name attached like any other email.[/b]

Actually, the only way we know who you are, is if you use your real name as your handle or your signiture. This board is pretty good that way, as most do one or both. Other boards have people hiding and masquerading as who knows what, and I think credibility suffers. I sign my name, list my car, and my location as well as my email, so there should be no trouble figuring out who I am and contacting me.


The "downside" w/these types of forums is that just about everything discussed would make for no more than a lively dinner conversation, but w/out facial expressions & conversational inflections, they can, & do, take on a more adversarial tone. :birra: [/b]

Right, but there are tons of upsides, and people who couldn&#39;t get a word in edgewise in a dinner converstation with a boisterous crowd can be heard here. I find the forum to unearth some pretty good points.

[Darren]

"Actually, the only way we know who you are is if you use your real name ..."

Check yer email for, as Paul Harvey says, the REST of the story. B)

"Right, but there are tons of upsides ..."

That&#39;s why I only used a singular version of "downside". :D