Un-tunable ECU's

[Joe Harlan]

I am curious as to the real number of cars that can't flash tune or add a chip or even an approved daughter board to their factory ECU. Given these three items I can't think of a Nissan that is not tunable.

[lateapex911]

Joe, good idea....but to facilitate discussion, could you define the term "Appproved mother board"? Thanks.

[Joe Harlan]

Well jake If I were re-writing the rule I would require stock ecu. Allow reflash or main process chip or an ad on daugther board that would require the spec and manufacture be approved for use. Easy stuff, I can provide a list of daughter board manufactures for Nissan and toyota. A daughter board is not a different ECU. with an approval system you could limit the function of the chips on the daughter board. but now back on track.

And please note Jake DAUGHTER board. please don't confuse the discussion by saying mother board you know thats a completely different deal.

List of cars

[RSTPerformance]

Non of the current Audi's eligable for IT competition have a computer that can be modified or chiped. We have been to SEVERAL tuning companies and offered a small fortune for development, all have come back, sorry their is nothing you can do with this computer. I tend to think they are telling the truth as these cars/motors are still used A LOT in rally cars, whom I would think could bennefit with HP more than we could.

I have no idea about the daughter you speek of... :D


Raymond

[Joe Harlan]

Cars Raymond, I have no idea what car are classed that you would be concerned about.

PS for you nissan guys: http://eccs.hybridka.com/ great data source.

[RSTPerformance]

ITB 1981 Audi 5+5
ITB 1981 - 1984 Audi Coupe
ITB 1985 - 1987 Audi Coupe GT
ITB 1981 - 1987 Audi 4000

ITA Audi Coupe GT (90% sure that they use the same ECU, but I may be wrong... It was a car that was built for 6 month only ('87.5) and I believe the only difference in the car was the rear disc brakes and the 2.3l motor.)


Hope that helps... I am sure that 40 or so VW's from the 80's are in the same padock... I have no idea what spacific VW cars can or can't be worked with though.

Raymond

[JimLill]

The VW A2 with CIS-E is one for the list. However, as an EE of 40 years, I still think there is hope... just harder to do!

[Z3_GoCar]

'96-'98 BMW Z3 1.9l in ITA
'96-'98 318ti in ITA
'96-'98 318i in ITA

All use Bosch M 5.2 ecu's all on the M-44 engine.

James

[jhooten]

ITS MK II Toyota Supra

[bamfp]

88-91 Civic DX and std in ITA and ITC. Has dual point injection.
70-76 914 1.7-1.8-2.0 ITC-ITB. 1.7&2.0 have D-jet FI and the 1.8 has L-jet which has an AFM. I was thinking of building one if the ECU rule changes.

Blake Meredith

[Joe Harlan]

88-91 Civic DX and std in ITA and ITC. Has dual point injection.
70-76 914 1.7-1.8-2.0 ITC-ITB. 1.7&2.0 have D-jet FI and the 1.8 has L-jet which has an AFM. I was thinking of building one if the ECU rule changes.

Blake Meredith
[/b]
Blake the open ECU rule will not fix mechanical based injection systems no matter how it is written. The AFM on the L-jet will have to stay in place and function.

[bamfp]

It is not mechanical it is electronic on the 914.

Blake Meredith

[Joe Harlan]

ITS MK II Toyota Supra
[/b]
http://www.technosquareinc.com/rom.htm

http://www.atsracing.net/atstunedrom.htm

I believe these guys can set you up with a daughterbord for that ECU.

[gran racing]

1986 & 1987 Honda Prelude si

I believe the Accords of the same vintage also have this issue.

[Joe Harlan]

1986 & 1987 Honda Prelude si

I believe the Accords of the same vintage also have this issue.
[/b]
OBDO box I believe is chipable like the nissan

http://forum.pgmfi.org/

[pfcs49]

We know it's electronic. At this juncture, the revisionists are talking about allowing whatever additional sensors you need to change to a different type of system (Mass airflow vs speed-density) but requiring that your intake air flow through the now unused airflow meter, but WTF, why not just throw all that shit away and mount a big velocity stack to your throttle body!!? (of course you'd make it the bottom of your airfilter housing so noone could accuse you of cheating) That should give you a few more ponies and the new killer advantage! This class is just TOO boring the way it's been all this time. Make my day. phil

[Joe Harlan]

It is not mechanical it is electronic on the 914.

Blake Meredith
[/b]


Blake these are an Early L-jet system no? If so there is no reason to think they are not as tunable as any other factory system. This system is run on a lot of good race cars all over the place.

[DaveITB1]

ITB '80-'83 BMW 320i
ITB '84-'86 BMW 318i

[Joe Harlan]

Dave I am confused. These are L-jet based cars with mechanical distributer that can be curved like any other and the stock box can be richened and leaned can it not? It's been a couple years since I worked on these older cars every day but I was pretty good with these systems back in the day. MY poin is I think these systems can make the gains with physical adjustment rather than even needing chips.

[Jeremy Billiel]

OBDO box I believe is chipable like the nissan

http://forum.pgmfi.org/
[/b]

Correct. Honda OBD0 is chipable, its just not mainstreem

[bamfp]

The 1.8 was the only one that came with L-jet. The 1.7 and 2.0 had the D-jet. Not much adjustment other then fuel pressure. Plus it would be cheaper to run aftermarket EFI then make a 30+ year old system work. Most parts are NLA and good used parts are getting harder to find.

Blake Meredith

[JoshS]

'96-'98 BMW Z3 1.9l in ITA
'96-'98 318ti in ITA
'96-'98 318i in ITA

All use Bosch M 5.2 ecu's all on the M-44 engine.

James
[/b]

James,

Why do you say they can't be reflashed?

Josh

[Joe Harlan]

The 1.8 was the only one that came with L-jet. The 1.7 and 2.0 had the D-jet. Not much adjustment other then fuel pressure. Plus it would be cheaper to run aftermarket EFI then make a 30+ year old system work. Most parts are NLA and good used parts are getting harder to find.

Blake Meredith
[/b]
Sorry blake but I think this is one of the reasons I would really be against it. The performance change from gang fire to sequential fire would be really big. This is exactly why this stuff belongs in production or GT rather than a complete philosophy change to IT. I know tuning a D-jet system isn't easy but it can be done.

[jlucas]

Most OBD2 Hondas until the RSX, 06 Civic, and 06 S2000 have a fixed ROM.

ODB1 conversion (which is chippable) is possible for those ODB2 cars but not for every car under the current rules because the its a different sized case, internal board, and ECU connector type. Honda or Acuras that have OBD1 and OBD2 cars on the same spec line can revert back to OBD1 with update-backdate.

[robits325is]

Un-tunable or unable to reach their 'process' potential? Big difference.

[lateapex911]

Uh Joe, I made a simple mistake. Chill out, theres no conspiracy here. Tell us more on the approval process. Who exactly does it, what do they do and how does the information get distributed and checked?




And please note Jake DAUGHTER board. please don't confuse the discussion by saying mother board you know thats a completely different deal.

List of cars [/b]

[Joe Harlan]

Specs for any add-on board would be submitted to the CRB just like any other approved part. The process to do this is already in place as this is how it is done for the touring catagory. It is clear to me that when people say things aren't tunable that they have not looked at all the options. If it has a a chip it has a program. If a pompass clod like myself can de-solder a chip and solder in a socket then anyone can do it. Look at the technosquare link, they sell Techtom stuff which seems to have the largest Jap car coverage.

[shwah]

To my knowledge every watercooled VW (and most of the older Audis) can be chip tuned, or resistor tuned, or 'mechanically' tuned for fueling. Ignition can be addressed within the current rules.

They cannot all have a nice, wide process window set of optimum maps, but when I race, my motor spends most of the time at WOT and 4k + rpm, so a super wide process window is not needed. I don't worry much about how it runs in the paddock and warmup lap, as long as it keeps running and goes when the green flies.

There are some old 'chipped' CIS-E boxes floating around that a UK company was charging a fortune for, but I think they are NLA.

That said, I do think small gains could be acheived with a programable, fully mapped system. I just would not go there without being at 100% on all other aspects of the powerplant. This is the first year that I have seriously considered converting to a stock electronic injection system and taking advantage of the current rule using Megasquirt or Microsquirt in a California spec. Digifant box. However - I am still not sold on it - my current setup allows me to get the fuel right where I want it, and works well enough to win in a G Production car.

[Conover]

What is available for the 1.8L miata? Anything, only thing I can find is a plug and play replacement ECU.

[Doc Bro]

The BMW m-44 motor in the 318 and Z3 can have a reflash done but it only raises the rev limit to 7K. There is no reflash geared toward performance available.

R

[Joe Harlan]

The BMW m-44 motor in the 318 and Z3 can have a reflash done but it only raises the rev limit to 7K. There is no reflash geared toward performance available.

R
[/b] Rob, your saying nobody has done it yet. If they can reflash to raise revs than there is a way to reflash the whole fuel&timing curve.

[Doc Bro]

Rob, your saying nobody has done it yet. If they can reflash to raise revs than there is a way to reflash the whole fuel&timing curve.
[/b]

Joe, That's exactly what I'm saying. Maybe there's someone you could point me toward to get that done?

R

[Joe Harlan]

Look at the same place that is raising rev limits. Ask them if they will do a custom map. If not find out who their programmer is and go into business for yourself. My point is that it's not a case of can't it is a case of hasn't.

http://www.activeautowerke.com/software/main.php

these guys say they do custom race applications.

[Z3_GoCar]

Joe,

You're assuming that just because one person makes a reflash for limited subset of the Bosch M5.2 ECU then it's tuneable? A Dinan reflash does not a tunable make, acutally I don't think it's a reflash as you need to send the whole ECU in. All this for one size fits all increased rev limit? They don't say what they do if anything to perform their Dinan magic. If it was worth the effort to crack then Jim Conforti would have cracked it, but he offers nothing. There used to be some bb posts on efforts to crack it. When the manufacture places random check sums in the unpublished programming to ensure untamperability. Sure maybe pay a guy for 6 months of effort, and then he won't be able to use it on every one that gets sent to them, or maybe he's still not able to crack it. Now the six cyclinder cars use a Seimens unit that's been cracked for years, but I didn't put a Seimens controled car on the list did I?

Note that AA does tuning on six cylinder car's, not one four is listed either. It's untuneable as stated.

[Joe Harlan]

James, The 1.9 is not a big enough market for them to care about. Do what you want, I look for solutions not road blocks. As I stated the 350z was not crackable per Nissan and we found a crack in less than 30 days. The market was big enough to make that worth doing.

Edit:
Active Autowerke also offers a varied array of software available for many different "custom" applications that may not be listed on the website. This applications include Force Induced cars as well as naturally aspirated cars. We also specialize in software for "RACE" applications. If you don't see what you are looking for please feel free to contact our sales staff so they can assist you.[/b]

So James did you call them or just assume?

[tnord]

preface; i've never worked with or seen auto focused software code.

statement; all code should be crackable or be worked around. people can hack microsoft, linux, or whatever other multi-bajillion dollar software that's out there from companies whose entire job it is to create and protect the software they write. any software in a car written as secondary concern relative to the design and engineering of the car itself should be a piece of cake if someone cares enough to try.

i would be more than a little surprised if they really spend that much time an money to write more secure code than microsoft.

[nlevine]

..acutally I don't think it's a reflash as you need to send the whole ECU in.
[/b]

James - Actually, any authorized Dinan dealer can install the software - the ECU does not have to be sent in. It is a re-flash. Dinan claims some HP improvement (but <10), and it does raise the rev limit (which may help lap times if it eliminates a shift or two per lap).

Now, finding somebody with the right interface software, a dyno lying around, and the knowledge to do a real race tune is a different matter.. It&#39;s absolutely possible, but will likely cost cubic dollars due to lack of demand, and the return you get on that investment is an unknown at the moment due to lack of a broad base of data.. Everybody races a BMW 6-cylinder, it&#39;s just us loonies trying to make the 4-bangers perform. Now, if I could bolt on a Downing-Atlanta supercharger without anybody noticing, I could get some real power out of that 1.9! :D

-noam

[Andy Bettencourt]

Now, if I could bolt on a Downing-Atlanta supercharger without anybody noticing, I could get some real power out of that 1.9! :D

-noam [/b]

Wouldn&#39;t it make sense that if you did a SC for it, you would almost HAVE to offer a CPU upgrade? Anybody with aftermarket parts of this nature for these things must have broken the code.

[gran racing]

Correct. Honda OBD0 is chipable, its just not mainstreem[/b]

We&#39;ve been through this before, but with my Prelude (and I believe the Accord&#39;s) case you are wrong. :rolleyes: Joe, with the forum you provided a link to, where did you see that my Prelude&#39;s ECU is chipable? Did you also notice the forum for Accords & Preludes and the sub-title to that? :(

I&#39;ve spoken with numerous sources, sent the ECU out to see if there was any way, and there&#39;s not. Jake, for what it&#39;s worth Peter Keane would have a good clue about the Prelude&#39;s ECU. I even went as far as contacting a guy in Canada whose know in the Honda ECU tuning world as THE guy. He was hoping there was a backdoor way of doing it vs. the traditional methods. (I was ready to tow my Canada to get this done, while there try out one of the local tracks.) There are also a few prelude and accord forums I&#39;ve tapped into. I&#39;ve even having a tough time getting a source to use a piggy back system, which previously I was told wouldn&#39;t be an issue.

From what I&#39;ve been told, I can convert the OBD0 to an OBD1 and then play around with it although I haven&#39;t determined what that entails (wiring, new box needed, ect.).


If someone can actually provide me a company who will chip my OBD0 for tuning, I&#39;d love to know who it is. Please prove me wrong and supply me with someone who will do this for me.

[Joe Harlan]

Dave if you want to pay me to find a way I will do the work. I pointed to a link with a lot of good info. My understanding is you have to de-solder the factory chip solder in a socket and profram the new chip. I also am sure that a proper written rule would allow and obd1 upgrade to a car that could be proved otherwise.

The early obdo 240sx is handled exactlt as I described. Radio shack and Fry&#39;s electronic&#39;s made the mechanical part easy. the web made the software and the help to do the first one I ever did. It just took desire to do it.

[gran racing]

Yeah I&#39;d pay you to do something that could be tuneable.

[JoshS]

Joe, That&#39;s exactly what I&#39;m saying. Maybe there&#39;s someone you could point me toward to get that done?
[/b]
Dinan or Jim Conforti could do it. Talk to them directly, not to a dealer. It&#39;ll cost you, of course. Just because there&#39;s no off-the-shelf tune for racing doesn&#39;t mean it can&#39;t be done, it just means noone has been willing to pay for it yet.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Yeah I&#39;d pay you to do something that could be tuneable.
[/b]

Dave - Joe and I are on the same page. From my understanding the ECU is not all that much different than OBD1 in that you need to desolder the stock chip, solder in a new socket and tune. There are 2 ECU OBD0 programs out there. I agree this is very niche and not mainstream, but it should be able to be done. What is the ECU code name for the preludes?

Can you take a picture of the guts of the ECU? This will determine what typs of chip it is.

See this link

http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Library/ChippingOBD0PM6
or this
http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Librar...ppingAn88-89ECU (http://www.pgmfi.org/twiki/bin/view/Library/ChippingAn88-89ECU)

[Joe Harlan]

The ECU for the prelude Dave has is a PJ7 Dave&#39;s car has a distributor and Vacuum advance if my info is correct. The ECU only controls fuel mixture at that point and has no timing control Timing curve is analog weights and advance (old school easy to work with) I think at this point you could use hondata to read the OE fuel map and factory rev limiters. You should be able to replace the main memory chip and program the new fuel curve ect. Now I think what I have to ask is. Has anyone with these cars that can&#39;t be programmed even been to the dyno to find out what they need or if they need anything that can&#39;t be done already? Because the rules would not let you change the Distributor in any car I am not sure how MOtec is gonna be worth the money on these older distributor type applications when you look at the money to value ratio..

Anyways Dave I am looking into it a little further and when you send me the photos of your ECU board it will tell me more.

Joe

[bamfp]

The problem with the Prelude, Accord and the CRX&#39;s of those years is the injectors are patch fired. The dist. only has a TDC and crankshaft position sensor. The 88-91 CRX&#39;s added a camshaft position sensor. That is why you can chip those cars and not the earlier ones.

Blake Meredith

[Greg Amy]

Joe, you gots photos of a Nissan setup? If not, I can provide digital pics of Calum&#39;s setup...

[Eagle7]

Look at the same place that is raising rev limits. Ask them if they will do a custom map. If not find out who their programmer is and go into business for yourself. [/b]



So IT will be destroyed by making readily available, easy to use, and cheap ECUs legal, and the solution is for Joe racer to start his own ECU programming business so he can stick to the stock hardware. Joe, your logic escapes me.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, you gots photos of a Nissan setup? If not, I can provide digital pics of Calum&#39;s setup...
[/b]


Greg I can open both style boxes tomorrow and post photos of them. The technosquare link I posted has photos of the boards that I am thinking of. http://www.technosquareinc.com/images/rom/bigMAZDANISSAN1.jpg

Marty sorry you don&#39;t get my logic but there are several pages to figure it out from. This stuff is not plug and play and it figures out how to run on its own. To take advantage of the dollars spent you have to spent it twice in dyno time and a programmer. There is nothing cheap about inexpensive

[shwah]

So IT will be destroyed by making readily available, easy to use, and cheap ECUs legal, and the solution is for Joe racer to start his own ECU programming business so he can stick to the stock hardware. Joe, your logic escapes me.
[/b]

I don&#39;t know about any of these rules in discussion destroying IT either way. Over time the way we handle such items probably will have an impact, and some sort of consistent direction will help this, but I feel that the ITAC is working hard to provide that consistency.

Some guys can&#39;t find a decent differential, or bushings, or air dam, or strut brace, or fill in the blank for their chosen car. They have to design/build or pay someone else to do that too. The car you pick is the car you have, warts and all. If there is no chip tuning available, that is one of the downsides of that car. It may not mean it can&#39;t be done, and if it can&#39;t you can probably use other methods to get the fueling right anyhow, but it means it hasn&#39;t been done.

The actual tuning will be the real expense of an aftermarket ecu, unless you have access to a free dyno.

[JimLill]

I am looking at 9.1.3. D-1-a-6 on page GCR-295 (2007)...

Am I correct that the inside of the ECU box is "open". Can I do anything I want inside it. I mean if I "invent" a JimDribble PCB that fits in there, it&#39;s OK?

The CIS-E on a 8V A2 VW doesn&#39;t do much fancy, but it&#39;s worth a look.

[lateapex911]

I am looking at 9.1.3. D-1-a-6 on page GCR-295 (2007)...

Am I correct that the inside of the ECU box is "open". Can I do anything I want inside it. I mean if I "invent" a JimDribble PCB that fits in there, it&#39;s OK?

The CIS-E on a 8V A2 VW doesn&#39;t do much fancy, but it&#39;s worth a look.




[/b]

yup...have at it. Your device can include whatever sensors or widgets you want. You won&#39;t be the first to stuff in a full EMS conrtroller, a TPS and a MAP sensor, though......thats out there now.

[stevel]

Joe, you gots photos of a Nissan setup? If not, I can provide digital pics of Calum&#39;s setup...
[/b]

Greg, fyi, the 240&#39;s use a completely different setup than the NX&#39;s. The 240&#39;s require a single, easily, available chip replacement just like the OBD1 honda&#39;s. No daughter-card necessary. Not all of the nissan&#39;s are the same. Just to clarify.

s

[Joe Harlan]

Greg, fyi, the 240&#39;s use a completely different setup than the NX&#39;s. The 240&#39;s require a single, easily, available chip replacement just like the OBD1 honda&#39;s. No daughter-card necessary. Not all of the nissan&#39;s are the same. Just to clarify.

s
[/b]

Stevel, actually the later 240 ECU requires a daughter card to handle the additional processor of the OBDI ECU....I have modified both styles and will post pics later. I have not done and NX and would like to see the differences if you wanted to share.

[mom'sZ]

So IT will be destroyed by making readily available, easy to use, and cheap ECUs legal, and the solution is for Joe racer to start his own ECU programming business so he can stick to the stock hardware. [/b]
this thread is proof that keeping the stock ECU and only allowing reflashing or rechipping isn&#39;t going to keep anybody from doing anything. What is the purpose of making folks work around the stock board? (really... I&#39;m asking) This creates inequality and furthers the gap between those that have the money or technical prowess and those who do not. Some folk&#39;s comments smack of protectionism and others sound like they&#39;re out to keep the rule as an avenue for profit.



The actual tuning will be the real expense of an aftermarket ecu, unless you have access to a free dyno.
[/b]
ahhh... I don&#39;t know about that. There are performance computers that can be mounted to the windshield with a suction cup and run off the cigarette lighter for power that contain a two axis G meter and with nothing more then an acurrate car wieght input can calculate horsepower for less then two hundred buck that are amazingly accurate and repeatable. Cheap data acquisition systems (less then $700) with g meters built in can calculate horsepower. Wide band O2 sensors are cheap. Every town has a drag strip near by. And there is always the seat of the pants dyno! Actual tuning is the greatest expense, but that expense can be made monetarily or with one&#39;s time and systematic record keeping. (same as chassis setup)
Megasquirt isn&#39;t simple, but there is a huge user base and tons of documentation. Not so for the typical guys (insert brand here) stock ECU. Some cars it will be harder, some easier... inequality. Yes, we all pick our horse, but if equality is easy to obtain, why not let it be so?

[stevel]

Stevel, actually the later 240 ECU requires a daughter card to handle the additional processor of the OBDI ECU....I have modified both styles and will post pics later. I have not done and NX and would like to see the differences if you wanted to share.
[/b]

Joe, you would know more about those later models than I. I was mainly speaking of the SOHC 89-90 240SX ecu&#39;s.

s

[Greg Amy]

I have not done and NX and would like to see the differences if you wanted to share.[/b]
Well, as you may already know, there&#39;s pretty much two players in the B13/B14 ECU arena: Jim Wolf Technology, who is a major retailer to the Nissan "tuner" market, and Calum Johnson ("CalumSult") who appeals to the DIY group. Both modify the ECUs with a socket and daughterboard and EEPROMs, and do their own programming; JWT provide cookie-cutter programs and Calum supports user tuning.

I&#39;ve tried both. I was disappointed in the lack of performance I got with the JWT "100 octane IT" program; on the DynaPack we saw exactly 2 horsepower, and it wasn&#39;t repeatable. Statistically, it was zero. I&#39;ve talked to another IT B13 driver and he reported similar results. JWT "can" work with you on reprogramming; they ask that you run the car on the dyno and send them the sniffer and trace results. Problem is, everytime they do that for you, it&#39;s $150. Plus, you have to give them a pretty hefty deposit on the chips and pay for shipping both ways. It&#39;s just not a practical solution for the racer.

My foray into the CalumSult realm ended in disaster: I burned up two engines from detonation. However I blame those failure on myself: These maps worked great on the dyno and in autocross, but could not tolerate long runs. The first time I was running 93 octane fuel and they ran fine during a school day (I was instructing) and qualifying session, but after about four laps of constant running in the race it toasted the engine. The second time it happened was a miscommunication between me and my crew chief resulting in my reinstalling the same computer, again with 93 octane.

So what we have here is a comparison of too conservative versus too aggressive, of mass retail sales versus "go it alone, you&#39;re responsible for your own tuning." Thus, since mid-year &#39;05 we&#39;ve been running the stock ECU with advanced base timing (and 100 octane fuel), and the fuel on the dyno really doesn&#39;t look that bad. I don&#39;t expect we&#39;ll be able to get much with tuning.

Following is a photo of one of Calum&#39;s setup, which is quite close to what JWT does. With this setup all tuning is done in the software (home-grown) program and is then burned to both chips (I use a Moates BURN-1). This board also supports using ROMulators, where you plug cables into the board connected to your PC, and use the software on the PC to emulate the ROMs. Once you fine-tune the program, you burn that to the chips and then install them. Finally, Calum has developed a design where you can keep the chips in, plug into the box via serial cable, and actually edit the programming in real time. Once I get Matt motivated to rebuild the engine on the NX I&#39;m planning on inviting Calum - who knows how to do the tuning - to join Matt - who knows what to tune - for an afternoon of dyno tuning to see what we can do.

<div align="center">[attachmentid=789]</div>

[Joe Harlan]

Yep thats basicly all the same stuff I have and have found over the years. Your photo looks like a 95 OBD1 240sx box I have not used that daughter board setup and would like to get more info on that. Now here is the deal, I consider you a pretty sharp person from what you have typed here and other that know you. Here you hae gone through 2 engines in a short period of time learning this stuff. That is it in a nutshell even with open ecu&#39;s you still have to program them and understand what your looking art when you do it. I had a box from wolf that was excellent but at one track in one place the motor would detonate. I decomplied the code on that box . There was one small section in the map that had 255 placed in about 6 to 10 boxs in the center of the timing map. A place that you would think the motor would never see we had max timing. Now at that one track in that one place the engin met those conditions. I went looking because I could not explain why I was breaking ring lands on the pistons other than the thing was detonating. Freak deal? I think so but most people don&#39;t have a clue how much they are taking on when digging into what is considered the easything to do. When we first did the 350z we lost HP before we gained any.

[shwah]

I am looking at 9.1.3. D-1-a-6 on page GCR-295 (2007)...

Am I correct that the inside of the ECU box is "open". Can I do anything I want inside it. I mean if I "invent" a JimDribble PCB that fits in there, it&#39;s OK?

The CIS-E on a 8V A2 VW doesn&#39;t do much fancy, but it&#39;s worth a look.
[/b]

Jim - build a microsquirt. Add a frequency to current conversion chip change the injector duty cycle signal to a current for the Differential Pressure Regulator and use the system to build a map for the &#39;fuel trim&#39; instead of for the overall engine. The flow plate will give you your macro fueling and the ecu will give you the fuel trim, just like the stock system, but now programable.

Of course you get nearly the same result by putting the correct resistor inline with the CIS-E coolant temperature sensor. Basically the oft noted &#39;fuel enrichment module&#39; that some tuners sell for this system. Tune it on a dyno with a potentiometer, and watch the AFR move at your whim as you turn the knob. Measure the ideal resistance and install a resistor of that value so your toddler son can&#39;t change the setting while playing in the car :P .

The complex system can be tuned to idle and drive like a street car when in the paddock or cold though...

I don&#39;t think ignition is as big a deal as people think. Run fixed timing if you like, WOT and 4k+ rpm on the track will be fully advanced anyhow. If you want to make timing curves you can add that functionality with a Megasquirt picking up the stock hall signal and using the stock ICM for dwell control. I just don&#39;t know if the Msns-E code works in the micro hardware, so might have to use full size board. Never checked on whether it would fit.

[jlucas]

Greg I can open both style boxes tomorrow and post photos of them. The technosquare link I posted has photos of the boards that I am thinking of. [/b]

Response from Technosquare about ODB2 Honda/Acura application:
"No we don&#39;t. The application you mention require to replace the CPU if you want to change program.

Sales
Technosquare, Inc. "
:(

[mom'sZ]

The original subject of this thread was untunable ECUs. Well I think my car falls into that catagory. My car is a 77 Datsun 280z. There is no way to &#39;tune&#39; my ECU. No epprom to reflash or replace. The whole reason I built this car was that when the &#39;process&#39; gave the 280z a wieght break, combined with the open within the box ECU rule, I thought this would be a great car. The ECU is as big as a shoe box, I can fit anything. The old electronics are crude, a modern solution would really help. The rule going to rechip or reflash only would hurt me.

[gran racing]

Once I get Matt motivated to rebuild the engine on the NX [/b]

What happened to the ARRC engine we brought down to Atlanta but never installed?

[Greg Amy]

What happened to the ARRC engine we brought down to Atlanta but never installed?[/b]
The compression ratio is too low on it. Recall that we were concerned about the compression on the ARRC engine in impound? That&#39;s because the build numbers he used on the new engine were actually too low; when we got the numbers in impound we thought the race engine was too high but it was the other way around. So, the new engine needs to have the head pulled and re-done.

Secondarily, that new engine has all new head parts (casting, valves, seats, guides, cams). We&#39;d prefer to keep those parts aside for when the good used inventory is all gone.

Third, the ARRC engine is already apart and could use better sealing; we were getting low-90s on leakdown checks. So, may as well rebuild it while it&#39;s apart (and get a few more ponies out of it in the process...) - GA

[mom'sZ]

The original subject of this thread was untunable ECUs. Well I think my car falls into that catagory. My car is a 77 Datsun 280z. There is no way to &#39;tune&#39; my ECU. No epprom to reflash or replace. The whole reason I built this car was that when the &#39;process&#39; gave the 280z a wieght break, combined with the open within the box ECU rule, I thought this would be a great car. The ECU is as big as a shoe box, I can fit anything. The old electronics are crude, a modern solution would really help. The rule going to rechip or reflash only would hurt me.
[/b]

What say you Joe?

[x1/9racer]

One to add to the "oddball" list:Fiat X1/9 w/ Bosch L-Jetronic. Aside from gutting the ecu housing, replacing internals w/ Megasquirt, etc, then somehow making it all function through oem wiring harnesses...It may not be impossible, but it is definately financially unfeasible.

[Joe Harlan]

Sorry guys both of those L-jet systems are plenty tunable inside the pre stuff it ECU rules. Both are a very good systems and with the ability to use any ignition in the factory distributor, you have what IT was all about. You may not like the flapper box but it works it is tunable and fits the catagory. Moms here is the deal I do this for a living if you want more information the shop is open 7 days a week. Once you are a customer you can challenge my tuning ability all day long. The rest of it is looking for an excuse to justify you own position. I had a hand in getting the weight adjusted on the 280 and i am plenty sure it can make the corresponding HP without the motec in the box.

Edit: It frustrates me that you trot out these old style systems that have easy factory adjustment and 95% of what you need to do is done with fuel pressure and manual ignition timing that is easily done by any kid with a timing lite and fuel pressure guage. Lets be real about this.

[mom'sZ]

Yeah Joe let&#39;s be real. I have no problem using the flapper box. Check the other thread, I am arguing to keep the flapper. But you and I know that the adjustment in the AFM is a broad over the entire rev range adjustment. Same as adding a resistor between the water temp switch and the harness, changes the mixture fron idle to WOT. Fuel pressure regulator with vacumn line could be tuned to up pressure at higher revs. If I have to, I&#39;ll make do. I&#39;ll tune for stoiciometric in my power band and live with a poor idle and lower RPM being off. Mean while you&#39;re happily tapping away at your bin files with your emulator, oh yeah that&#39;s fair. If you know the z so well, you know how they are all over the place through the rev range. You gonna reprogram my analog box? Even if you could, I couldn&#39;t afford your services. I&#39;m a poor boy. But I&#39;m also a computer tech and have twenty five years experience in the car biz before that. I&#39;ve got a few aces up my sleeve no matter which way the rule goes. And to me, part of the challenge is building a legal winner within the rules by anybody&#39;s standards. See ya at the track

[Joe Harlan]

Yeah Joe let&#39;s be real. I have no problem using the flapper box. Check the other thread, I am arguing to keep the flapper. But you and I know that the adjustment in the AFM is a broad over the entire rev range adjustment. Same as adding a resistor between the water temp switch and the harness, changes the mixture fron idle to WOT. Fuel pressure regulator with vacumn line could be tuned to up pressure at higher revs. If I have to, I&#39;ll make do. I&#39;ll tune for stoiciometric in my power band and live with a poor idle and lower RPM being off. Mean while you&#39;re happily tapping away at your bin files with your emulator, oh yeah that&#39;s fair. If you know the z so well, you know how they are all over the place through the rev range. You gonna reprogram my analog box? Even if you could, I couldn&#39;t afford your services. I&#39;m a poor boy. But I&#39;m also a computer tech and have twenty five years experience in the car biz before that. I&#39;ve got a few aces up my sleeve no matter which way the rule goes. And to me, part of the challenge is building a legal winner within the rules by anybody&#39;s standards. See ya at the track
[/b]

Well at least you admit you can work with it. the fact is that if the genie is put back in the box your system will be easier to deal with than some others. I have worked with the Z system for years including turbo applications using it. I have 20+ years of L-jet experience with all kinds of cars. And as you say there is more than one way to skin the chicken.


Good luck

[mom'sZ]

Well at least you admit you can work with it...[/b]
Oh yeah, I can work with it. But the subject of the thread was &#39;Un-tunable ECU&#39;s, Lets start a list of cars&#39; and you started the thread. You asked for cars that had a ECU that couldn&#39;t be tuned. I gave you one, x1/9racer just gave you another. You didn&#39;t ask for cars that can&#39;t be tuned, you asked for ECUs that can&#39;t be tuned. And I&#39;d bet the original intention was to make the point that your rechip /reflash rule was fair to everyone. Now you&#39;re saying &#39;well you can&#39;t reflash that old thing, but you&#39;ll be alright&#39;

...the fact is that if the genie is put back in the box your system will be easier to deal with than some others...[/b] And that&#39;s my point exactly Joe. If you have your way, some will be allowed full control, others will have some control, and other will have none. I guess writing a rule that is fair for everyone is less important then guarding the original (unwritten) intention of the rule. You&#39;re desire to defend the intent and spirit of IT is chivalrous, and I&#39;m sure the fact that you make a living in part by rechipping and reflashing ECUs (you said your services were available) and the fact that rechipping and reflashing is dificult and enigmatic for your average guy has nothing to do with why you want this rule. By the way, do any of the guys you race against have Motecs?

[JoshS]

If you have your way, some will be allowed full control, others will have some control, and other will have none. I guess writing a rule that is fair for everyone is less important then guarding the original (unwritten) intention of the rule.
[/b]
There&#39;s something to be said for car choice. Some cars are better choices than others. You can&#39;t expect the rules to equalize everything. The rules don&#39;t let cars with solid axles or struts somehow get double wishbone suspensions. If equality was the goal, then the rules would let RX-7s put in some custom independent rear suspension.

I just do not understand why you (the collective "you", not "mom&#39;sZ" specifically) want equality for ECUs but not for other parts of the car. I don&#39;t think that this concept of "equality of opportunity" is really within the spirit of the IT rules.

But playing devil&#39;s advocate with my own argument, Andy Bettencourt did tell me once that classing mentality of "new replaces old" does not apply in IT. I suppose all of you with old cars are trying to protect your competitiveness against newer technology that came from the factory on newer cars. Is that it? If that&#39;s it, are you all ready to continue to spend money to improve your cars as newer technology gets added to IT? And do you recognize that if you give these same allowances to the new cars as well as the old, then it does nothing but raise the costs of preparation for ALL cars in the category?

[Joe Harlan]

Oh yeah, I can work with it. But the subject of the thread was &#39;Un-tunable ECU&#39;s, Lets start a list of cars&#39; and you started the thread. You asked for cars that had a ECU that couldn&#39;t be tuned. I gave you one, x1/9racer just gave you another. You didn&#39;t ask for cars that can&#39;t be tuned, you asked for ECUs that can&#39;t be tuned. And I&#39;d bet the original intention was to make the point that your rechip /reflash rule was fair to everyone. Now you&#39;re saying &#39;well you can&#39;t reflash that old thing, but you&#39;ll be alright&#39;
And that&#39;s my point exactly Joe. If you have your way, some will be allowed full control, others will have some control, and other will have none. I guess writing a rule that is fair for everyone is less important then guarding the original (unwritten) intention of the rule. You&#39;re desire to defend the intent and spirit of IT is chivalrous, and I&#39;m sure the fact that you make a living in part by rechipping and reflashing ECUs (you said your services were available) and the fact that rechipping and reflashing is dificult and enigmatic for your average guy has nothing to do with why you want this rule. By the way, do any of the guys you race against have Motecs?
[/b]

Actually I am an AEM dealer and I sell Motec as a side line. So the fact is I would make a boatload more money if this rule was to pass. I do burn chips for a couple of nissans but most have done all of that type of work for myself out of necessity because I could have never afforded to pay someone to do it for me and I cold never have afforded to by the others. You can take all the punk shots at me you like I make my argument based on history and back it up with a principled reason for my action. the fact is your ecu is not your problem the fact that you are unwilling to accept your system is easier to be tuned than the later stuff we are dealing with is your problem. This is my last response to you as you appear to want to make me the issue and I am tired of it.

[mom'sZ]

There&#39;s something to be said for car choice. Some cars are better choices than others.[/b]
Good valid point Josh. We all pick our horse, warts and all. I have two things to say in reply. First off, I picked my car very carefully. One of the top engine builders on the east coast told me he thought with the new reprocessed wieght and the open ECU &#39;this was the car to have&#39;. Now my car is threatening to grow a wart. The rule has been in place for five years and even if some think open wasn&#39;t what was originally intended, ii is what the rule book said. The second thing is, it is impossible to make things completely even, but if the opportunity is there to make it more even, should we not?



The rules don&#39;t let cars with solid axles or struts somehow get double wishbone suspensions. If equality was the goal, then the rules would let RX-7s put in some custom independent rear suspension.[/b]
Josh, you made the same arguement in the other thread and AB explained how suspension layout ect. is one of the criterion used in the &#39;process&#39;

Look man here&#39;s my point. Stock ECUs only - fair for everyone, cars might need reprocessed. Open ECU w/ stock sensors - fair for everyone, helps guys with small stock box. Open ECU any harness or sensors - fair for everyone but some may go hog wild. rechip/reflash only - great for some, others get screwed
you pick

[JoshS]

Good valid point Josh. We all pick our horse, warts and all. I have two things to say in reply. First off, I picked my car very carefully. One of the top engine builders on the east coast told me he thought with the new reprocessed wieght and the open ECU &#39;this was the car to have&#39;. Now my car is threatening to grow a wart. The rule has been in place for five years and even if some think open wasn&#39;t what was originally intended, ii is what the rule book said.
[/b]
A different argument, but quite valid.



Josh, you made the same arguement in the other thread and AB explained how suspension layout ect. is one of the criterion used in the &#39;process&#39;[/b]
Yes, but so is the amount of HP gain in IT trim, and not all cars are assumed to gain the same amount.

[mom'sZ]

Actually I am an AEM dealer and I sell Motec as a side line. So the fact is I would make a boatload more money if this rule was to pass. I do burn chips for a couple of nissans but most have done all of that type of work for myself out of necessity because I could have never afforded to pay someone to do it for me and I cold never have afforded to by the others. You can take all the punk shots at me you like I make my argument based on history and back it up with a principled reason for my action. the fact is your ecu is not your problem the fact that you are unwilling to accept your system is easier to be tuned than the later stuff we are dealing with is your problem. This is my last response to you as you appear to want to make me the issue and I am tired of it.
[/b]
Joe, the reason I don&#39;t agree with your point of view has nothing to do with my car. You keep telling me that I can do what I need to do with what I have and I should feel lucky because a lot of other guys are a lot worst off. Well that is my issue. The rule is unfair for some guys as it stands (not me, my box is huge) The rule you suggest is unfair to some guys and benifits others. Taking away a guy&#39;s investment is unfair. (yeah yeah, I know, they were exploiting a loophole) We have an opportunity to write a rule that is fair for everyone. You don&#39;t think open ECUs are in the spirit of IT, fine, stock ECUs only.
If I was arguing for my own sake, I&#39;d be pushing for open ECUs with any sensors and open wiring. I&#39;d build a megasquirt for less then $300 in parts and I&#39;m a computer whiz so I&#39;d have no problem writing the open source code to do anything my diabolical little mind could dream up.

[wm577]

any 1997-2001 honda prelude has a Un-tunable ECU. They can not be chipped, and the case is rather small and you can&#39;t fit the OBD1 guts and adapter inside. I think most if not all OBD2 hondas from 1997 till about 2003 have the same problem.

[AE86ITA]

http://www.technosquareinc.com/rom.htm

http://www.atsracing.net/atstunedrom.htm

I believe these guys can set you up with a daughterbord for that ECU.
[/b]

Hello Joe:

I have a 4AG powered Toyota Corolla, a 1985 GTS. After followinh your advice and contacting Technosquare they mentioned that I needed to bring the car to their location in California in order to tuned(burn chip in a try and error mode) the car.

For some of us that is really not an option. Is there a true plug-n-play ECU that could fit inside our original housing? I know of at least a few stand alone systems that could sell their product in a plug-n-play
application for just about any car (i.e. HYDRA EMS (http://www.hydraems.com)).

Thanks,

[Renaultfool]

Renault Alliance, Encore, and GTA, 1983-1987. Three different ECU types, all Renix. I&#39;m sure that someone could figure out how to rechip and tune anything, but at what cost? They would remain a low volume project for anyone, so high cost.
What you are suggesting really makes about as much sense as building a model ship in a bottle. Sure a few people might be able to do it that way, but most people may just want to build a model ship.
The open option would equalize out the cost for everyone and allow the rare oddball car to still see the front of the pack for a while.
I am not sure that we have not refocused the purpose of our interest from racing to technology. Sticking with the stock system, which cannot be verified at the track or Joe&#39;s or some other system, that cannot be checked at the track will not ever cure the feeling that someone is taking an advantage. The ability to police the technology has already passed us by, from the factory or Joe&#39;s. Let&#39;s police what we can measure, the mechanical parts, open the rest up and race.
Carl

[shmeek]

We&#39;ve also not addressed the DPFI Hondas that Blake mentioned. I&#39;ve found no one willing to work on these ECUs.