National license requirement to instruct at competition schools

[gran racing]

Last year I sent in my membership and license renewal for a regional competition license and later decided that it might be nice to offer assistance instructing at the two competition racing schools being held in my area. I was surprised to learn that in order to be an instructor at these events, it is necessary to have a national competiton license regardless of a person’s experience or instructing abilities. I just don’t get this.

I understand having a requirement to have a competition license and then requiring approval from the chief instructor (or whomever involved in running the school) before someone is allowed to instruct. If the instructor candidate does not have enough experience or for whatever reason would not be a good fit in that role, do not have them instruct at the event.

The easy answer some will give is “just go get a national competition license, blah, blah, blah.” We’ve often discussed that just because someone races in a national class, doesn’t mean they are a better racer. Shouldn’t the same theory apply even more for someone who just so happens to check-off the national license box instead of regional?

Just out of curiosity, do regions ever have a difficult time getting enough instructors? Or is there a large supply and that’s never a concern? As with last year, I’ll be spending a couple days instructing at HPDEs vs. the competition schools. This year it is partially because I didn’t compete enough SCCA races to qualify for a national license before totaling my car, although I did two NASA races. This requirement just doesn’t make sense to me.

[Greg Amy]

>>> WHY???

'Cause there's an expectation that a National-licensed driver is more experienced. Without that standard, one would have to research each potential instructor's history/experience before deciding they're experienced enough.

That's why.

Now, whether that's a good standard to use can certainly be debated. There's a lot of good Regional-licensed drivers out there, just as there's a lot of National driver that suck. But, short of a standardized testing process to control who can instruct, there's no other way within the culture and regulations of the SCCA to accomplish it...

Anyway, what's the motivation for an experienced driver to NOT get a National License? Whether you plan to race Nationals or not is irrelevant; is it the extra $25 (or whatever?) There's no other reason for someone with the required events to not get a National license (unlike my argument about a novice staying on a Novice PErmit for as long as possible).

See, now you have a reason for that National license.

[RacerBill]

As Greg says, the National License requirement is objective and not subjective, quantitative and not qualitative.

How many points do I get for using 4 'ive' words in one sentence?

BTW, Dave - my crew guys loved the books! I gave them to them as much to keep them working with me as helping them decide to race themselves! :D :114: :D

[charrbq]

I've had a national license for several years for two reasons. One, 'cause I could, and two, 'cause it opens up a lot of doors within club racing.

[gran racing]

'Cause there's an expectation that a National-licensed driver is more experienced. Without that standard, one would have to research each potential instructor's history/experience before deciding they're experienced enough. [/b]

Are you saying that anyone who has a national license in good standing will automatically be allowed to instruct? There's no research or asking around about that person first? Even when I started instructing HPDEs, I was asked many questions about my driving experience, and we talked about what it takes to be an effective driving coach.

If it only based on number of events one participates in, why not just ask that? What's the big difference between a regional only racer who completed 5 races with a regional license vs. a national license other than the "National" being typed before competition license? Nothing.


Anyway, what's the motivation for an experienced driver to NOT get a National License?[/b]

More like, what's a persons motivation TO get a national license if they won't be racing in a national class? Just so one could instruct? That reasoning is silly. (This is really a different topic which doesn't pertain to being allowed to instruct or not.)


--Thanks Bill, that is awesome to hear! I appreciate the feedback. Looking forward to meeting you at the MidO IT festival.

[JamesB]

Could be the level of requirement to maintain a national license. unlike regional with 2 sanctions which some can take care of in a weekend where as you need at least 4 races to maintain a national license. It may not be that they are better racers, but you do need to be more active racer.

[JohnRW]

I was surprised to learn that in order to be an instructor at these events, it is necessary to have a national competiton license regardless of a person’s experience or instructing abilities. [/b]

That would be a 'local requirement', not something mandated by the GCR, the SCCA Operations Manual or any clear-thinking individual.

In addition to being Chief Weenie etc. duties at SCCA Schools, managed to get talked into being Race Chair for several SCCA licensing schools. When trying to recruit instructors, was told "need a Nat'l license to instruct". I said: "That's pretty farking stupid...(and more)" and the response was "Oh...OK...never mind". Problem solved.

Local issue.

[Greg Amy]

More like, what's a persons motivation TO get a national license if they won't be racing in a national class?[/b]

'Cause they might? 'Cause if someone says, "hey Dave, drive my 350Z in T2 next week?" you won't have to jump through hoops? Never happens, but it'll cost you all of $25 extra to have the license, using the same exact process and the same exact amount of effort. (And never say "never". I used to pay for a Pro license even though the opportunities only came around once in a blue moon. But, when they did, I was already prepared.)

Using your logic, what's the motivation to bother with getting a Regional license instead of staying on a Novice Permit (besides the fact they kick you off of it after two years)? I don't know your situation, but I'd bet a dollar-to-a-donut you applied for that Regional *immediately* after getting your two races in, despite the fact you could have continued racing on the Permit for another year-and-a-half (or more).

Just as in going through the process of getting a college degree even though you may not use it, there is a standard of expectation that comes with someone having a National license versus a Regional (or Novice Permit). And, just as you may not use that History degree while working on computers, having that 'skin says something about you.


Just so one could instruct? That reasoning is silly. [/b]

Actually, I think getting all ruffled because for some reason you're against getting a National license is silly...just pay the twenty-five bucks and it's no longer a problem...why try to make others jump through all these hoops for you to keep on a Regional?

Suck it up, babe, it ain't that bad.

[gran racing]

Greg,

What does any of this have to do with the requirement of having a national license to instruct at a comp. school? Getting offered a National ride? Nope. Staying on a novice permit? Nah. College degree?? Now if the topic were more general like "why get a national license"...

[lateapex911]

'Cause they might? 'Cause if someone says, "hey Dave, drive my 350Z in T2 next week?" you won't have to jump through hoops? Never happens,..............

[/b]

THAT is exactly why I got a National lic. A friend hired me to do some work. Of course, when it came time to fork over the $$$$, he wasn't, shall we say, flush.

So, what to do? "Borrow my Spec Racer for the next national weekend", he says. Seemed like a good idea.

I had watched that car finish mid to back pack with a rental driver who gave it high praise...but the owner said he was a putz. "Car can go much faster" he said. National weekend comes, and I am 4 seconds faster than the putz, but I hate the car. And the time is....good enough for the front of a Regional field, but....at the very back of the National field. And to make matters worse, the car is a dart flyiing backwards..all OVER the place. Come to find out, it had a bad rear SB causing the rear wheel to toe in and out...JUST like the bad front tie rod was doing up front....AND the tires?? Not currrent spec, and really old and hard.

But, I soldiered on to get out of the basement, and learned a lot. (About trusting strange cars and friends with little cash, LOL)

Get a National for the extra change. Never know when it mght do some good.

[Greg Amy]

Dave, I'll lend you the $25...

[gran racing]

<sigh>It wasn&#39;t the $25, but I&#39;d be glad to take donations.

[dickita15]

I am with Greg on this Dave. The answer is simple. The club wants to make sure instructors have reasonable experience so they want to set a standard and this is the only one they have available without creating some huge bureaucracy.

[JLawton]

Just so one could instruct? That reasoning is silly. [/b]

Um, that&#39;s why I did it..................... <_<

I wanted to give back to the club and have always enjoyed teaching. I didn&#39;t even think twice about having to get a National before I could do it.... But thanks for calling it silly! :023:


I realize that&#39;s not the point of your post............

My response to your question is like Greg&#39;s, because they have no other way of judging you. Yes ,you can ask what kind of experience they have, but I&#39;ve seen that concept used at a PDA event to determine what group to slot someone. Like anyone is going to admitt, "I suck and have not expereince so but me in the slow group".

We&#39;re racers, we all think we&#39;re better than we actually are!!

[gran racing]

Honest questions that will help clarify the process better:

If a region were to be contacted by a driver with a National License, would the person who received the volunteer offer in the region ask anyone else if they&#39;ve head of that individual?

If no one if familiar with the person who offered to instruct, would they still automatically get to instruct at competition schools based on the fact they have a National License?

I can understand the requirement to have a Nat&#39;l license if that is the only critera used in instructor selection, but that would raise other concerns. Now if regions do ask others if they are familiar with the person volunteering, why not just ask the person offering help to provide the four races they completed in last year & sanction numbers?



I wanted to give back to the club and have always enjoyed teaching. I didn&#39;t even think twice about having to get a National before I could do it.... But thanks for calling it silly![/b]

The mandate to have a national license Jeff, not the person volunteering. Again, it&#39;s not about an extra $25.
<_<


Yes ,you can ask what kind of experience they have, but I&#39;ve seen that concept used at a PDA event to determine what group to slot someone. Like anyone is going to admitt, "I suck and have not expereince so but me in the slow group". [/b]

Number of races Jeff, same as a National license application does.

[gran racing]

Sounds like I need explain where my curosity of this requirement stems from.

Last year I sent in my SCCA regional license & membership renewal. I was later approached by a few people about instructing at the upcoming comp. schools. The decision was simple; as soon as I started racing thought it would be cool to instruct at these events. When speaking further with the individual about instructing, I learned of the National License requirement. Simple, call National and have it changed. For whatever reasons (I can&#39;t remember all of the details), it wasn&#39;t so simple to change my license to a National one at that time. The explaination provided made sense. O.k. So I couldn&#39;t instruct that year, I figured I&#39;d spend the days off from work I alloted for these dates instructing at HPDEs instead. But next year...

Well, in &#39;06 I completed two NASA races but during my first SCCA race, my car couldn&#39;t resist a darn wall. That was it for my season and that car (which in reality wasn&#39;t such a bad thing and the timing was actually pretty darn good). I was able to get an exception made and am getting the two required race requirement waived so I can get my regional license next year. Once again, no national license possibility thus I also can not instruct at comp schools again this year.

Yeah, it&#39;s frustrated me and got me thinking more about this requirement. It also made me wonder how many others are impacted by this. I didn&#39;t originally include this information because it wasn&#39;t just about me.

[Greg Amy]

If a region were to be contacted by a driver with a National License, would the person who received the volunteer offer in the region ask anyone else if they&#39;ve head [sic - "heard"?] of that individual?[/b]

Absolutely.

But not having a Regional license is an easy way to "weed" out the extremes of inexperience.


If no one if familiar with the person who offered to instruct, would they still automatically get to instruct at competition schools based on the fact they have a National License?[/b]

Volunteers are ALWAYS needed, so it&#39;s highly unlikely that this person would be excluded. However, they will most likely be used as an observer from various points around the track, rather than as either an assigned-to-student instructor or as an on-track driving instructor.

Then, as the region/division instructors work with this person more, they&#39;ll be stepped up in responsibilities.


...why not just ask the person offering help to provide the four races they completed in last year & sanction numbers?[/b]

Why bother, when there&#39;s an existing easy system in place to determine their minimal recent experience: the possession of a National license?


Number of races Jeff, same as a National license application does.[/b]

Pardon me, Dave, but a realization just hit me: because of your misfortune with the car last year, you don&#39;t have enough races to bump up to a National license, do you? And you&#39;d REALLY like to instruct this year, wouldn&#39;t you? Is that what this is all about?

As John pointed out, a National license is not a GCR requirement. NEDiv is always looking for volunteers, almost nobody is ever turned away. Call our Chief instructor Alan Dunklee and explain your situation (gotta use the phone, he doens&#39;t use email). I am sure he&#39;d be glad to have you on board this year, even if it&#39;s just as an observer (everyone starts there anyway). Then, get your program together, get that National license, and then it&#39;s no longer a problem... - Greg

On edit:We were typing at the same time...it all makes sense now, Dave. Call Alan, I&#39;m sure he&#39;d love to have you on board - GA

[gran racing]

See previous post Greg.
Off to do another paint coat! :D

[Z3_GoCar]

.....
Using your logic, what&#39;s the motivation to bother with getting a Regional license instead of staying on a Novice Permit (besides the fact they kick you off of it after two years)? I don&#39;t know your situation, but I&#39;d bet a dollar-to-a-donut you applied for that Regional *immediately* after getting your two races in, despite the fact you could have continued racing on the Permit for another year-and-a-half (or more).
......
[/b]

Why even get a regional license? If you read that section of the GCR&#39;s, if you race two sanction events (a double regional weekend) and pay $50 you can get your regional, but if you race six sanction events and pay $50 you get a national. All I need is one more double weekend and I&#39;m going novice->national. So here&#39;s a reason to delay the gratification, jump over the regional license and get a national one.

James

Edit:

As stated in the other thread it&#39;s $75 to go from Novice to either National or Regional according to the GCR&#39;s

[dickita15]

What Greg said. At the National level the license grade is about the only standard they have to apply. Locally the first time you volunteer you are technically an observer. The first time I worked a school I was assigned to work with an experienced instructor. I am sure I was being observed as well. I was told later that they were surprised I knew my stuff so well and they wondered why I was so slow. The second school I worked I got my own students.

[Bill Miller]

Using your logic, what&#39;s the motivation to bother with getting a Regional license instead of staying on a Novice Permit (besides the fact they kick you off of it after two years)? I don&#39;t know your situation, but I&#39;d bet a dollar-to-a-donut you applied for that Regional *immediately* after getting your two races in, despite the fact you could have continued racing on the Permit for another year-and-a-half (or more).
[/b]

Not even close Greg. I saw no reason at all to send in any extra money to (at the time) Denver.