No ITR in San Francisco Region in '07?

[JoshS]

I have just been told that San Francisco Region, as of right now, is not planning on including the ITR class in their 2007 regional series. Instead, ITR cars can run as ITE.

This is unacceptable! If you agree, please send a letter to the San Francisco Region ([email protected], it will be forwarded to the powers that be). There is a region board meeting on January 27th where this could be discussed. All of the new classes are on the agenda for that meeting.

I hope I'm not building this car just to compete at the back of ITE. This is quite upsetting.

[dickita15]

wow, if true it must be the largest region in the country can not afford an extra $6 plague.

[Knestis]

You need to find out which ITE entrant - or entrants - is exerting the clout on this decision...

K

[ed325its]

How can any region exclude a nationally recognized class?

[mlytle]

How can any region exclude a nationally recognized class?
[/b]
good question. itr is not a regionally generated optional class. it is a "nationally recognized regional class".

if the won't run an itr class, they are running a restricted regional. they need to read the rules on restricted regionals. having a series without all classes represented is a problem.

maybe they just mean itr will not have it's own run group? the class can run, but will be running in the same run group as ite? that would be "normal".

[BMW RACER]

Hey Josh.

Come South and race with us! We have ITR and I'm planning on running in it.

Seriously, I wonder if they can get a sanction from SCCA national if they don't run all the classes. Maybe you should contact someone in Topeka

[racer_tim]

Josh, playing devils advocate, what run group would you put ITR in?

If you put it in group 1, with ITE, the region looses entrants, since they couldn't run in ITE and ITR.

Put it in with Group 5 (IT and Small Bore) you'll drive out the rest of the handful of small bore prod cars

I don't think that the Group 3 (Big Bore) group would want them there, since they would be hood ornaments for SP, GT1 and GTA.

I know, put it in group 7 and let them run with Spec Maita. Now that would be exciting.

I will also bring this up at the chiefs meeting. I'd also suggest sending e-mails to Kathy Johnson, SFR chief of tech.

[JoshS]

maybe they just mean itr will not have it's own run group? the class can run, but will be running in the same run group as ite? that would be "normal".
[/b]
No, the region board is questioning the need for all of these new classes, and they are talking about whether or not they are obligated to accept them. Until a decision is made (presumably on January 27th), ITR cars are expected to run "as" ITE cars, not just "with" them.



Josh, playing devils advocate, what run group would you put ITR in?

If you put it in group 1, with ITE, the region looses entrants, since they couldn't run in ITE and ITR.

Put it in with Group 5 (IT and Small Bore) you'll drive out the rest of the handful of small bore prod cars
[/b]
No doubt, I'd put it in group 5. These are IT cars and they should be with other IT cars. We're talking about 5 or so cars tops in '07, I'd think. We had small bore prod cars (and GTL) running with us (T2) at the National races, with T1 and AS! ITR cars will be about the same speed as T2, I think.


I will also bring this up at the chiefs meeting. I'd also suggest sending e-mails to Kathy Johnson, SFR chief of tech.
[/b]
Thanks, I'd appreciate that. I did manage to speak with Bryan Nemy, one of our region board members, who told me that they will definitely be discussing this on the 27th, and that he'd be surprised if it doesn't get approved. Still, I'm really pissed that they'd even consider not accepting it. The national BOD has already bought into the value of the additional class, and I just don't think it's the region board's role to question it in this manner. Do they want to mutiny or something?

Anyway, If they don't approve the class, then I've got an awful lot of time and money in a car that has no place to play. I didn't build it to be 10+ seconds/lap behind ITE, I built it to try to win ITR. I'll go to BMW Club or NASA and blow off my 18-year membership if they don't work this out.

[JoshS]

Followup: this is all spelled out in the GCR. Page 68, chapter 9.1:

"Organizers of SCCA Regional, National Championship, and Interdivisional Championship events shall provide competitions for the following classes and categories." (Improved Touring, and specifically ITR, follows.)

Seems like regions have no choice in the matter. I've pointed this out to the region's board. I'm feeling better now.

[lateapex911]

F&@K them, LOL.
No way, no how can they pull that on a regular sanction. Total BS. And WHAT is the big deal?? The cars will be a few seconds faster than ITS., or around EP times....and with the small initial turnout, there should be NO problem slipping the class into the EP or ITS group.

Just ridiculous. :026:

[JoshS]

Apparently, they can do that. Turns out that all of the SFR regional races are already restricted regionals, because they don't use the national SM rules.

I guess maybe I'd have known that if I'd run any regionals last year.

[RSTPerformance]

that is crap...

[dj10]

F&@K them, LOL.
No way, no how can they pull that on a regular sanction. Total BS. And WHAT is the big deal?? The cars will be a few seconds faster than ITS., or around EP times....and with the small initial turnout, there should be NO problem slipping the class into the EP or ITS group.

Just ridiculous. :026:
[/b]



What a crock of Shit! Remind them what happened to Saddam :D :cavallo:

[lateapex911]

When we first came up with the ITR concept, we went to several regions to discuss it getting added to run groups, to see if it would cause problems. The regions we spoke to, were all supportive, and said that it was a class that could slot in several areas easily. The resistance in SF is troubling. Whats going on out there?

[Knestis]

Seriously - which board members run ITE? Inquiring minds want to know. It's protectionism, in some form or another...

K

[JoshS]

Seriously - which board members run ITE? Inquiring minds want to know. It's protectionism, in some form or another...
[/b]
I wouldn't assume that it's protectionism, but I don't really know what's behind it. Appears that only one board member scored any points in ITE in '06, and not too many (probably didn't run the full season in that class, but I didn't do a thorough search).

[Z3_GoCar]

Josh, playing devils advocate, what run group would you put ITR in?

If you put it in group 1, with ITE, the region looses entrants, since they couldn't run in ITE and ITR.

Put it in with Group 5 (IT and Small Bore) you'll drive out the rest of the handful of small bore prod cars

I don't think that the Group 3 (Big Bore) group would want them there, since they would be hood ornaments for SP, GT1 and GTA.

I know, put it in group 7 and let them run with Spec Maita. Now that would be exciting.

I will also bring this up at the chiefs meeting. I'd also suggest sending e-mails to Kathy Johnson, SFR chief of tech.
[/b]

Funny Tim,

Last regional I outran an SP car. Here in the South, ITE is run with SP, GT, and Production. I think there was as much a speed differential between me and the H-Production Sprites as Andy Potterfield's GT-1 car and me, now there's a real speed differential GT-1 to H-Production. Even as an ITE car I couldn't keep up with John's ITS 325, I say put them in with the rest of IT. Really they won't be that much faster than ITS. It'll take a year or two to get the development to the poin that ITR will really be significantly faster.

James

[Andy Bettencourt]

I still don't think that they can do this. They have no standing to approve or diapprove the class. The SCCA has approved it. They are obligated to provide a spot for it. The Regional Only classes like ITE are the ones that should be under 'consideration' every year.

Don't let the SM issue cloud this. Read the SM rules carefully. They specifically say that Regions can run their own tire rules etc. It's all on the up and up. This ITR this is total BS. I guess I would ask them under what rule they are not allowing a GCR-based class to participate? If they try and sneak something in under a 'restricted regional', it MUST be in the SUPPS, which have to be approved by HQ.

I expected a lot more from SFR.

[Joe Harlan]

I still don't think that they can do this. They have no standing to approve or diapprove the class. The SCCA has approved it. They are obligated to provide a spot for it. The Regional Only classes like ITE are the ones that should be under 'consideration' every year.

Don't let the SM issue cloud this. Read the SM rules carefully. They specifically say that Regions can run their own tire rules etc. It's all on the up and up. This ITR this is total BS. I guess I would ask them under what rule they are not allowing a GCR-based class to participate? If they try and sneak something in under a 'restricted regional', it MUST be in the SUPPS, which have to be approved by HQ.

I expected a lot more from SFR.
[/b]


I looked hard through the bylaws and I can't find anything that forces a region to host a class. I think the BOD could cause a region grief at charter renewal time. SFR has had more catchall classes for the kind of cars that ITR catches and I don't see it being any skin off their butts not to offer it. Any other regions doing the same?

[Ron Earp]

How many catch all classes do they have? ITE was one that is recognized in many regions, but they have more catch all classes?

Ron

[Joe Harlan]

How many catch all classes do they have? ITE was one that is recognized in many regions, but they have more catch all classes?

Ron
[/b]

Right now they have SP,ITE,ITX on the books. There have been more in the past with spec classes and like ITD ect.

[JoshS]

SFR has the following regional classes:

Club Ford/Spec Ford
GTA
SP, ITE, ITX
RX-7
SMT (SFR's version of SM)
Baby Grand

So, as far as catch-alls are concerned, there are really only two: SP and ITE (rules here (http://www.sfrscca.org/RoadRacing/Supps-Regs/SP_ITE_ITX2006.pdf)).

Basic summary:
ITE: any tub chassis production car on DOT tires. SS/IT safety regulations.
SP: vehicles exceeding their GT/P specifications, but meet GT safety rules. Aero allowed.
ITX: Another place for ITA, ITB, ITC, ITD, SM, and RX-7 cars to play. But also allows SSA, SSB, and SSC cars in with some IT allowances.

The only place an ITR car could go is ITE. Well, they could also go into ITX with fewer mods, provided that they were once listed in SS.

EDIT: On that note -- anyone know what the last year of SSA was? I think it was '97, but if it went to '99, any chance my car was listed in it?

[mlytle]

I still don't think that they can do this. They have no standing to approve or diapprove the class. The SCCA has approved it. They are obligated to provide a spot for it. The Regional Only classes like ITE are the ones that should be under 'consideration' every year.

Don't let the SM issue cloud this. Read the SM rules carefully. They specifically say that Regions can run their own tire rules etc. It's all on the up and up. This ITR this is total BS. I guess I would ask them under what rule they are not allowing a GCR-based class to participate? If they try and sneak something in under a 'restricted regional', it MUST be in the SUPPS, which have to be approved by HQ.

I expected a lot more from SFR.
[/b]

we just went through this drill in the wdcr. because of our very crowded track conditions, we were considering dropping some of the very low participation open wheel classes from the marrs series events in order to make room for the burgeoning mazda and it classes. this would have made the marrs series restricted regionals. the open wheel folks got a little upset and started alerting scca officials in high places. threats/hints of scca national intervention "reopened" our class grouping discussion and resulted in the undersubscribed open wheel classes run group being put back in the marrs series. the point here is that scca national did not look kindly on a region exluding a nationaly recognized class from a regional event. sfr bod needs to be aware of this.

i still don't understand the reluctance to have an itr class though. it is just an extra group of cars to keep track of and another trophy to buy. big deal. not worth creating this controversy. are they pulling the same stunt with the other new classes? (prepared, f1000, etc.)

marshall

[lateapex911]

Marshall, the only difference between Nationals interest in the WDCR run group and the SFR situation is that the classes you were affecting were National classes, and ITR is IT....regional only. Maybe HQ will care, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it wasn't as big a dot on their radar.

But, while your situation had huge implications in terms of wasted time....the most precious resource of the weekend....the exclusion of ITR really has no such implication....and the cars still need to be kept track of...just as ITE cars. The ONLY differerence I can see is the cost of 1 or 2 trophies. ($15.00????)

I think someone in high places has their panties in a wad, and just doesn't like being told what to do.....

[Gregg]

I also see two very big differences between what we tried to accomplish and what SFR might be trying to do.

3.1.5. Restricted Competitions
Restricted competitions are conducted under special Supplementary Regulations that limit participation to classes of cars not recognized in the GCR, or to invited drivers only...[/b]
My reading of the above is that allows you two distict instances where you may hold a restricted competition. In WDCR's case we were choosing not to invite drivers of open wheel cars. Unfortunately, it appears as though SFR fails to meet either requirement. They need to either restrict the competition to their region-specific classes only or not invite the ITR drivers. By telling them that they can enter and run as ITE is the problem.


3.5.3. Additional Classes
Competitions for classes, other than those specified in Section 9.1 Categories and Classes, shall not jeopardize a full schedule of competitions for the recognized classes. Organizers may also schedule extra competitions for other classes, provided specifications are clearly set forth in Supplementary Regulations.[/b]
Because WDCR was choosing to eliminate winged, open-wheel classes that are limited via the GCR as to which other cars they may run with, and no region-specific class was presenting an situatiuon where they could not be on track (it was actually the drivers' rep for a GCR-recognized class causing this issue), the above did not apply; however, in the case of SFR it can be argued that because they are forcing cars belonging to a GCR-recognized class run as part of a region-specific class that they run afoul of this provision as well.

[Joe Harlan]

From the GCR.


9.1. CATEGORIES AND CLASSES
Descriptions of the automobiles eligible to compete in the various SCCA Club Racing competition events are carried in the GCR and category specification books. Their amendments and clarifications are published in FasTrack and on the Official SCCA web site.
To compete in an SCCA sanctioned event, all cars shall comply with the requirements of the GCR and of the specifications for their category and class. If these General Provisions and Specific Provisions for a category/class shall conflict, the specific category/class provisions shall take precedence. in cases where the specification line for a particular car conflicts with the class/category rules the spec line shall have precedence.
Organizers of SCCA Regional, National Championship, and Interdivisional Championship events shall provide competitions for the following classes and categories (see 3.9.2.E). Classes not designated “Regional Only” shall be eligible to compete for an invitation to the Interdivisional Championship (Runoffs) per section 3.9.2. Note: ( ) Indicates identification markings per 9.3.28.
9.1.1. FORMULA CATEGORY CLASSES
Formula Atlantic (FA)
Formula 1000 (FB)
Formula Continental (FC)
Formula Vee (FV)
Formula Ford (FF)
Formula 500 (F5)
Formula Mazda (FM)
Formula S (FS) - Regional Class Only
Section 9.1.1., continues in the Formula Category Specifications Book.
9.1.2. GRAND TOURING CATEGORY CLASSES
GT-1 (GT1)
GT-2 (GT2)
GT-3 (GT3)
GT-Lite (GTL)
Section 9.1.2., continues in the GT Category Specifications Book.
9.1.3. IMPROVED TOURING CATEGORY CLASSES (Regional Only)
R (ITR)
S (ITS)
A (ITA)
B (ITB)
C (ITC)
Section 9.1.3. continues in the Improved Touring Category Specifications Book.
9.1.4. PREPARED CATEGORY CLASSES
B Prepared (BP)
D Prepared (DP)
Section 9.1.4., continues in the Prepared Car Specifications Book.
9.1.5. PRODUCTION CATEGORY CLASSES
E Production (EP)
F Production (FP)[/b]

I think the word shall pretty well covers the requirement to host the class. The only possible way out is a restricted regional.

[mlytle]

thanks joe. that is the section i remembered but couldn't find in my quick flip through the gcr this morning. the sfr "shall" provide for ITR. even if they run restricted regionals, they still have to provide a race for ITR.

in the wdcr case, the classes in question were national classes and the wdcr holds separate races for national classes, so this "shall" requirement would have been met if we went to restricted regional without the national open wheel classes. not the case for sfr since itr can't run in a national race.

[zracre]

How can they have ITX and ITE (2 classes we dont even have here in the SEDIV) and not honor ITR?? Especially if people are building them!! I have a feeling this exclusion will be short lived.

[JoshS]

Good news -- I've just received a note from the chairman of the region BOD. They made the decision, and there will be an ITR class in 2007.

They have not yet decided which run group we'll be with.

The note asks all of the letter writers to make sure that the class actually has a turnout: "We are counting on your participation to make this more than a 1/2 car class, with the goal of having interesting competition for Drivers and Workers."

Anyway, whew! I will have a place to play.

[lateapex911]

Calmer minds prevailed. Phew!

[BMW RACER]

Now all we have to do is get them to recognise car numbers that start in 0 :P

[Z3_GoCar]

And Laguna-Seca's not that far of a tow unlike Thunder Hill. I really had fun there last September, in spite of the turn 8 gravel trap.

James

[racer_tim]

Josh, Baby Grand lost it's class a couple of years ago, when participation numbers tanked. They still run as SP.

In SFR, ITX is designed as a "dual entry" class. The entry is dependent on you running your regular IT class, and the entry is almost 1/2 price of a full 2nd entry.

This is all about entry numbers. For example, a SM can run in Group 1 as ITX, Group 5 as ITA, and Group 7 as SMT. Most of the other IT cars that choose this dual entry feature, run in Group 5 as ITA, ITB, and ITC, and in Group1 as ITX.





David, Thunderhill from the SF Bay Area is about the same distance as Buttonwillow. Both are about 3 hours from a majority of SFR racers.

[JoshS]

Tim,

Yes, you're right about BG. I mentioned it because it's called out both in the region Supps and on the region website (but both places say it runs as SP).

As far as ITX, I don't see anywhere that says you cannot enter ITX and only ITX. You'd have to if you were using the older Showroom Stock provisions (where you get some IT allowances, but have to run stock drivetrain, even mufflers.)

[racer_tim]

Josh, check out

http://www.sfrscca.org/RoadRacing/Supps-Re...uppRegs2_10.pdf (http://www.sfrscca.org/RoadRacing/Supps-Regs/2006SuppRegs2_10.pdf)

Section B

Requirements for a "Dual (Same Driver) Entry at $150 (2006 Price)

"Must be entered and not withdrawn in the original class. A dual entry is defined as the same car and driver a second group at the same Regional........"

Your right though, that you could enter ITX only, but intent of ITX was for dual entry. Double the track time for less than 2x standard entries.