Moving from IT to Prepared ?

[imported_Webmaster]

Who is considering moving from IT to Prepared (World Challenge) ? Even long term?

I'm interested in who here would consider B & D Prepared the next step after ITS or ITR instead of going Production car racing??

For those who have not been paying attn: B Prep = WC GT and D Prep = WC Touring.
We're not talking about the Solo Prepared classes :D

Let's try to keep the responses limited to those who are actually considering the move instead of a list of opinions by those who are not planning to ever go to Prod or Prep.
Thanks!

[Knestis]

I have to confess that a brief (and masochistic) thought flitted through my little brain when I saw that Erickson's Golf IV was for sale, but sanity prevails. A little bit, anyway.

The only thing that keeps me coming back to the idea of "something beyond IT" is the desire to do hillclimbs and tarmac rallies with a real shot at placing overall, and the LP Prod or Prepared rules would allow for some kind of road racing application for what would otherwise be a one-trick pony.

K

[its66]

Funny you mention it today...I had a conversation yesterday about this very subject. I need to research the rules a little better. Will this (DP) only allow vehicles that were classed in WC, or will it allow other vehicles which fit the "formula"? I find it to be a pretty interesting class. One would have to be very careful of their choice of weapons though.....

[imported_Webmaster]

>> will it allow other vehicles which fit the "formula"?

Anything that fits the formula. It's actually easier to make cars competitive in these classes as they will use SIRs and weight to equalize them.

Here are the engine rules, the rest are in your new SCCA GCR that you have or will have shortly:

D. Engine

1. Alternate engines may be used, given that the manufacturer of the vehicle and engine are the same (e.g. Acura engine installed into a Honda auto). Replacement engines shall have the same number of cylinders/rotors as the original.

2. The connecting rods and crankshaft must be stock OEM parts for the specific engine, but may be tooled enough to achieve balance. The standard weight reduction allowance for balancing of the crankshaft is 0.5 lbs. The standard weight reduction allowance for the balancing of the reciprocating assembly is 15 grams.

3. Blocks may be sleeved to repair cylinder walls.

4. Rocker arms, lifters, followers, pushrods, valve springs, keepers, retainers, guides, seats, and valves are free, TITANIUM is NOT permitted, except for the retainers. The head may be machined to fit valvetrain components.

5. Valve lift is limited to .600". Camshafts and timing is free.

6. Cars produced with an electronic throttle body may use the OEM electronic throttle body. The OEM electronic throttle body may be converted to manual actuation and the actuation cam on a manual throttle body may be changed to alter the opening/closing rate of the butterfly

7. The ignition system components may be replaced freely provided that the type of ignition remains the same as stock.

8. Engine calibration (spark and fuel) is free. A programmable ECU is permitted. The RPM limit set within the engine management system shall be the same for all gears (i.e. 1st gear shall not have a lower RPM limit than 2nd-6th gears).

9. Fuel injector(s) and fuel rail(s) must maintain the original number and mounting location(s), but are otherwise free. Fuel pumps and fuel filters are free in type, size and number.

10. The location and type of the fuel pressure regulator(s) are free provided they are mounted within the engine compartment.

11. The ring gear diameter must be the same as the production flywheel. Flywheels shall be ferrous metal, or aluminum, but are otherwise free. Titanium flywheels are not permitted. Clutch and pressure plate design is free.

12. Oil pan and oil pickup may be baffled, modified, or replaced to prevent surge. OEM oil pump may be modified, or replaced with an OEM-style oil pump. Cars using a wet-sump oil system shall safety wire the oil drain plug, or in some other way secure the oil drain plug, to prevent the plug from accidentally coming out.

13. Vents, breathers, and oil filters may be added, or substituted. All emission control devices may be removed and the resulting holes plugged.

14. Replacement gaskets and seals are free, including head gaskets. Replacement gaskets and seals must be made out of material(s) designed to seal the parts of an engine. Replacement gaskets and seals may not perform any other functions. Head gaskets may be used to adjust compression ratio.

[lateapex911]

My understanding is that it is to give WC cars a play to race, but is open to any cars built to the rules.

My question is which WC rules will be followed? They change week to week, and allowances vary car to car. WC is a moving target over the years.

It won't be a cheap class, thats for sure!

[JeffYoung]

I am interested in B Prepared. I intend to wait the next 3-4 years and see whether ITR or B/D Prepared attracs more cars.

[Z3_GoCar]

I'll admit I'm still considering it. While as Jake has pointed out it won't be cheap, neither will be what's required to bring my car back to IT legality. So I'm basically stuck in a position where significant amounts of money will be required either way. Because of this I'm thinking that I'll stay in ITE for next season and drive many more test and tune days rather than races. Really, the nut behind the wheel needs more tightening at this stage. If I play it right, I'll be ready to really go in '08.

James

[titanium]

It funny this topic came up today, as I plan on racing the Mustang Cobra in the first ever BP race next weekend as Sebring.
The car is far from being finished. It still has a stock 100,000 mile motor under the hood. (equipped with a homemade 40mm SIR to slow it down ever further!)
I initally planned on running SPO in the southeast. To be on the pointy end of the grid there you need about 650 HP. In B Prepared, running the SIR, the SCCA figures the max amount of power should be around 450. The engine builders I've talked to say a 392 small block, (or larger) with the max 12.0 to 1 CR can hit that number with the SIR, and not have to turn over 6000 rpm. Also, the motor should easily last an entire season.
Also, it could be build for a reasonalble amount of money. (compared to a SPO motor, at least)
I'll get a better picture of the car up soon. (I know, I need to update the website also. )

[BMW RACER]

Seeing as I have an E36 and would like to run other tracks as part of a championship (though I probably wouldn't run the runoffs) I'm going to see if I can get another season (2007) out of my current motor and run ITR, while keeping an eye on Prepared, maybe making the jump in 2008.

One thing I don't see in the rules is any mention of pistons. What oversize and what compression?

[Bildon]

I got my GCR today and read the D Prepared rules (basically WC Touring). I love the rules set :023:

I'm speaking only for those who are fans of WC and Touring car type racing in general. We are the guys who "Tivo" the WC TC, BTCC and WTCC shows on Speed. In "our opinion" we like cars that look like the FIA Touring Cars that run everywhere else in the world. There is a large group who appreciate the look of a "stock car" yet appreciate the freedom of real race prep and creativity underneath. True, the cars will ultimately be far more expensive than IT, but the class is for those interested in the next level of prep and engineering, not for the entry level guy looking to race on a small budget.

The fields will be very small at first and in fact the class may never see the "IT like" numbers that I personally would like. However, for a team like mine that wants to take a club racing car beyond IT prep yet has no interest in running what we see as somewhat antiquated Production car rules.... this new class looks great to us.

Personally I think that it's good that there is another avenue for up and coming (or just dreaming) TC drivers to choose from. If you dream to be an SCCA Prod class national champion you can move from IT to Ltd. Prod to Prod... if you prefer to someday race in World Challenge or Grand Am Cup or CTCC etc, this new class is just the ticket before you take the "pro plunge". I think this has the opportunity to steal some PCA, BMWCCA and USTCC teams who are looking for more door banging and perhaps less 13-13.

The question is, are there enough out there thinking like I do? Afterall the USTCC series under NASA has had dismal attendance (only 3 cars finished at Mid-O). Not a good sign... I guess only time will tell.

So the 2007 season has already started out west and down south. Has anyone seen a D Prep car?

[tderonne]

A home for ex-World Challenge cars? Yeah right.

Just like limited prep production being a simple place to go with an IT car. Sure it can be done, and it's legal, but the way to run at the front is to build a fresh car from scratch. I see the BP and DP being the same way. Fastest cars will be built to the limits from scratch.

A place for World Challlenge budgets is more like it.

[Bildon]

One thing I don't see in the rules is any mention of pistons. What oversize and what compression?
[/b]

9.1.4.176: Compression is limited to 12:1

I agree the rules seem to be lacking in the engine area.
A 3L BMW 4v= 29mm SIR & 2700lbs minimum.
So a 1.8L Honda has the same SIR & minimum weight?
The WC TC like weight calculations must come into play at some point, or did I missing something?
In WC TC the Honda Civic weighs ~2400# and the Bimmers and Audis weigh ~2800-3000#

[Joe Harlan]

BP=5. Transmissions and Ratios are free. Forward gears are limited to six speeds. Cadillac CTS-V (Mid Valley spacer) and Pontiac GTO (Tilton spacer) are allowed to space the transmission 8 inches back with the designated spacer.

DP=3. Transmission and Ratios are free. Forward gears are limited to six speeds.

Say hello to 5 to 15 k for gear boxes.

But the engines must have stock rods.

[BMW RACER]

Also, are those minimum weights including driver? (I assume yes)

[Chris Wire]

BP=5. Transmissions and Ratios are free. Forward gears are limited to six speeds. Cadillac CTS-V (Mid Valley spacer) and Pontiac GTO (Tilton spacer) are allowed to space the transmission 8 inches back with the designated spacer.
[/b]

Looks like John Heinracy will take home 3 gold medals at the Runoffs next year.......

[cherokee]

I am going to be moving to Prod. I was going to do it this year but am going to wait another year or so. Prod just seems to have the cars that I like. I like the older stuff.

[erlrich]

I may be missing something, but wouldn't any 1990+ IT car with a prod-legal cage and fuel cell be eligible for prepared (with a few other minor changes)? Obviously it would take a s*#tload more work to be even close to competitive, but if some IT guy just wanted to dip his toe into the national scene couldn't it be done?

[titanium]

I just checked the entry list for Sebring.
There are a total of 5 B Prepared cars entered.
In D Prepared, just one:

52 Djjohnj Blue 1995 BMW 325i Sponsored by: Bayles Elite Racing

I'm not familiar with that name.
But if you enter the race, and only two cars show up, you'll be on the podium for a National race :D

Rod

[JoshS]

I may be missing something, but wouldn't any 1990+ IT car with a prod-legal cage and fuel cell be eligible for prepared (with a few other minor changes)? Obviously it would take a s*#tload more work to be even close to competitive, but if some IT guy just wanted to dip his toe into the national scene couldn't it be done?
[/b]
Provided that your cage meets the rules, yes (mine does). For example, it requires the forward bars to the firewall, which are optional in SS/IT.

I studied this, the only changes I would have to make to my ITR car to be Prepared-legal are:
Hood pins
Driveshaft loops
Windshield clips
17x8 wheels (narrower than ITR)
intake restrictor

As you point out though, it would take a LOT more to be competitive, especially since two of those mods will slow the car down! I don't know what the point of just showing up to a National race is though if your car is going to be 10+ seconds behind the class.

[Jim Bourn]

My understanding is that it is to give WC cars a play to race, but is open to any cars built to the rules.

My question is which WC rules will be followed? They change week to week, and allowances vary car to car. WC is a moving target over the years.

It won't be a cheap class, thats for sure!
[/b]
The VTS spec sheets for World Challenge cars doesn't change all that much in terms of items requiring extensive change. Most all changes involved 25 to 100 pounds of balast and and weight distribution changes of less than 3 percent, air inlet restrictor changes (5 or 10 percent at most) and boost changes. The Audi A4 and SRT-4 saw changes as the series came to grips with turbos in the touring car ranks but for the most part most cars were pretty static in terms of VTS specs for the last few years.

When has being competitive at the National level ever been cheap?

[Bildon]

Does anyone have any insight into the displacement / piston rules?
Surely I can not bore out any D Prep engine to 3L ??

[titanium]

One change I had to make to go to BP was put my center console back in.
(Actually, I cut it in half and put in just the part that come down from the dash and goes around the shifter)

Per Section N, Cockpit:

7. Stock dash/instrument panel cover (dash pad) must be used. There must be a center console present. The center console is considered to be the piece that surrounds the shifter lever. The center console may be stock; or of alternate origin, but shall cover the same approximate floor area as the OEM piece that surrounds the shifter lever, as a minimum.

Here's one for all you people who wonder why you had to keep the washer bottle in IT.
Its so you can use it for brake cooling when you go to Prepared. :D

Section L Brakes:

5. Water spray cooling systems are permitted. The amount of water carried for injection into the brake duct is free.

[lateapex911]

Now THAT is weird!!! They want a console?? But it doesn't have to be stock?? Huh??

At least the washer bottle isn't something that IT rules insist you fab!

(Here's a brand spanking new ruleset, and yet theres still lots of "huhs" in it!)

[Joe Harlan]

Now THAT is weird!!! They want a console?? But it doesn't have to be stock?? Huh??

At least the washer bottle isn't something that IT rules insist you fab!

(Here's a brand spanking new ruleset, and yet theres still lots of "huhs" in it!)
[/b]


Jake I have to tell you, I have been on the phone with everybody that will listen. This is the dumbest set of rules SCCA has ever produced. I am completely at a loss as to how they think this is a National class in the making.

[Knestis]

... I don't know what the point of just showing up to a National race is though if your car is going to be 10+ seconds behind the class. [/b]

Unless something has changed in the last few years, you just baffled a significant portion of National entrants.

"Huh? Because it's a National."

K

[Bildon]

Now THAT is weird!!! They want a console?? But it doesn't have to be stock?? Huh??
[/b]

Remember that B&D Prepared are just slightly altered World Challenge rules. It' is a spectator series.
There are numerous rules in there if you read them carefully that follow this "make it look good" logic.

[Bill Miller]

But if you enter the race, and only two cars show up, you'll be on the podium for a National race[/b]

Sounds like just about every F/G/H Prod National! :P

Joe,

If you think you'll get a sequential 6-spd for $5k, good luck. You'll see $10k (if you're lucky) - $25k boxes (and maybe more).

I agree w/ Tim, this is a silly rule set. The cost is going to be so much, why would you spend that kind of cash and NOT go pro racing? Of those 6 cars entered in the Sebring National, see how many of them are entered in the WC or GAC races. BTW, how many of those BP cars are SpeedSource cars?

And as far as Heinricy taking home any more Runoffs' medals (for BP and DP), I doubt that they'll be going this year (I don't think there are enough cars out there for them to make the numbers). But, if you do get factory involvement in this thing, forget about it for any one else. If they were smart, this is what they would have morphed GT into. And calling that 'smart' is a reach!

[its66]

Sounds like just about every F/G/H Prod National! :P

. BTW, how many of those BP cars are SpeedSource cars?

[/b]

None.

[Matt Rowe]

I agree w/ Tim, this is a silly rule set. The cost is going to be so much, why would you spend that kind of cash and NOT go pro racing? Of those 6 cars entered in the Sebring National, see how many of them are entered in the WC or GAC races. [/b]

I have to agree with Bill and Joe on this. I followed along as this ruleset went through committe at least twice and both times could not see why we would put together such a ridiculously expensive set of rules (and had this discussion with a committe member and BOD rep). The SCCA needs a class to attract a more youthful audience, guys that want to run current factory cars but that look more like "real race cars" with airdams and wings and gutted interiors and some go fast parts. But we didn't need the cost of the transmissions, suspensions and engines to the degree that WC has. You're talking about factory backed efforts with millions of dollars in the program and the classes are designed with those as the standard?!?! How are you going to get someone to build something new and compete against an old WC car? The answer is it's not going to happen, at least not in any sort of numbers. So we are going to have two poorly subscribed classes and still a number of guys not racing with us and unhappy because they can't build the car they want to run.

This is one case where I think we really missed the boat, or at least our target audience.

[Bildon]

>> this is a silly rule set.

You guys are &#39;funny&#39;. <_< It&#39;s not a class for you. It will not affect you.
Just because a certain class is outside your budget does not mean it&#39;s "silly".
Is GT1 "silly", Is GT2 "silly" ?

If somebody gave you an old WC car and you had $250,000 you might change your tune quickly.
Please leave this thread to those who may benefit from the new class.

[Joe Harlan]

>> this is a silly rule set.

You guys are &#39;funny&#39;. <_< It&#39;s not a class for you. It will not affect you.
Just because a certain class is outside your budget does not mean it&#39;s "silly".
Is GT1 "silly", Is GT2 "silly" ?

If somebody gave you an old WC car and you had $250,000 you might change your tune quickly.
Please leave this thread to those who may benefit from the new class.
[/b]
Bill I have a fully built DP car today in the shop ready to race. I built it based on information that has been around for 5 years. 25K 6 speed boxes were not part of that information. This rules set does include me. The issue is there are as many 250k cars sitting around as people think. There are also not as many people as you would like to think that can afford a 300k budget to club race per season. This will be another example of a National class that will have 1 or 2 cars that can win and the rest will be also ran&#39;s. Great idea.

[ddewhurst]

***This will be another example of a National class that will have 1 or 2 cars that can win and the rest will be also ran&#39;s.***

THEY can always merge the class with Trans Am. :026: (K. & Bill Miller, I had to use your amputee frog.)

[Bildon]

Hi Joe, I dont think I understand your point. Are you interested in racing your car in DPrep (not DP) or not?
In my earlier post above I mentioned (like you) my concern for tiny car counts and the potential for car counts to be "dismal" for a while... or it may flop completely, only time will tell.

But what I can&#39;t stand is the defeatist attitude that so many SCCA members here have. It&#39;s really baffling when somebody complains about a class they have no intention of running.

Why would any SCCA member in good standing try to kill the class by bad mouthing it before even giving it a chance? The first race hasn&#39;t even run yet. And by &#39;kill&#39; I mean the negative impression of the SCCA it gives those racers who peruse this site.

Are these your words?
>> We need to organize a group that can write a business plan and understands marketing strategy.

I couldn&#39;t agree more. Now we need to &#39;Walk the Walk&#39;. :023:
Touring Cars ARE the marketing tools of the current performance generation.

If there is something specific people have issue with in the Prep rules then I think we&#39;ve all seen here how an intelligently written request will be seriously considered by the comp board. But how about we let the class run for a year before forming opinions on it&#39;s worthiness.

And just to be technically accurate... You should NOT have to have a sequential gearbox to win DPrep races. Go look at who has won the WTCC repeatedly over the last few years in the face of many sequential box opponents. Personally I&#39;ll keep the $20-40K and take the 100 lb weight reduction. A standard box with ignition interrupt will work just fine.

http://www.bildon.com/catalog/images/temp/cat_bottom5.jpghttp://www.bildon.com/catalog/images/temp/cat_bottom2.jpg

[Joe Harlan]

Bill, Yes I will be running DP in 07 my point is that the BOD and the CRB were lazy in putting this rules set out. And I am fine woth working to change the rules set and I will be at the convention to voice my feelings on it. It is better to do nothing, than to do it wrong that is a fact. Once I spend 25k for a gearbox I will never take it out of the car. (even if the rules change) I have spent to many years watching these guy screw to pooch and giving a crap less about it. SO Yes I will run the class because I have a large investment in a car already but I am not selfish enough to think that I should just shut up and protect my own investment just so others can be screwed the same way.

Bill, It is just like SIR&#39;s and Rollcages and the GT summit. There is plenty of proof that the folks making these choices aren&#39;t qualified to do so.

[dj10]

I can&#39;t believe the money you&#39;d have to throw into this class! People bitch about IT being expensive. If you have this kind of money for this class, you should go PRO WC, at least you&#39;d get some TV time. They sure would be fun to drive! :eclipsee_steering:

[Bildon]

Dan,
A) Happy New Year bud

All,
B] There are a number of old WC cars out there that can be had affordably ($10-$40,000).
There are also a number of racers who can afford to build a new WC type car. However the costs and infrastructure required to "go Pro" is far more than what would be required to run local Nationals. FAR more.

This is not an entry level or even a budget based class. This is going to be the "Prod" or "GT" of the future if it works... if it works...if it works.

Look around at how many $100,000+ WRXs, 911&#39;s, Evos and Bimmers there are out there. LOTS.

[Bildon]

Anyone have news on the Sebring B & D Prep races?

[p.keane]

Joe, Stan Clayton and I will be glad to talk to you at the convetion about the Prepared rules. Bring your list and be prepared to discuss them with us. The CRB is well aware that the original rule set came straight from WC and needs to be improved to fit into club racing. It also sounds like you have knowledge of the class and we are currently looking for resumes for the advisory comittee. We would appreciate any help that you could be.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, Stan Clayton and I will be glad to talk to you at the convetion about the Prepared rules. Bring your list and be prepared to discuss them with us. The CRB is well aware that the original rule set came straight from WC and needs to be improved to fit into club racing. It also sounds like you have knowledge of the class and we are currently looking for resumes for the advisory comittee. We would appreciate any help that you could be.
[/b]
I will be happy to discuss it. My resume has been on file for the last 5 years it should not be hard to find.

[Bildon]

There seems to be a lot that needs to be ironed out wrt to these Prep rules...
The post here highlights some obvious rules needing clarification...

http://www.world-challenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=605

[sstecker]

i just picked up the bmw in the for sale classifieds. i plan on being in d prepared and NASA GTS3 but would need to do some work to get it legal.

[Stan]

Peter Keane talked to the D-Prepared Bayles Elite Racing BMW 325i driver this morning, and called me after leaving the track about an hour ago. The guy told Peter that he normally runs in ITS with its 29mm SIR or ITR without the SIR, so the swap to BP took nothing more complex than adding a couple of letters to the side of the car. (The guy ran the ITR Regional race the previous day.) Oh yeah, he also mentioned that he&#39;s building another 325 specifically for BP to take advantage of the more liberal engine rules. Sorry, I forgot to ask Peter if he got the guy&#39;s name.

Stan