So what's this junk about no new ITC/ITB cars?? [Archive]

Knestis

12-21-2006, 12:11 AM

Let's look at 2000 model-year cars and see (curb wt., hp, torque)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Daewoo/705/2000.daewoo.lanos.3024-T.jpg
Daewoo Lanos (2447, 105, 106)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Ford/9264/2000.ford.escort.3765-T.jpg
Ford Escort (2478, 130, 127)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2002/Daewoo/100003575/2002.daewoo.nubira.3031-T.jpg
Daewoo Nubira (2800, 129, 136)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Honda/3256/2000.honda.civic.4856-T.jpg
Civic DX (2359, 106, 103)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Hyundai/17423/2000.hyundai.accent.5283-T.jpg
Hyundai Accent (2280, 92, 97)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Kia/12660/2000.kia.sephia.6137-T.jpg
Kia Sephia (2478, 125, 108)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Kia/13130/2000.kia.spectra.6139-T.jpg
Kia Spectra (2575, 125, 108)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Mazda/2532/2000.mazda.protege.6924-T.jpg
Mazda Protege DX (2434, 105, 107
Mazda Protege ES (2537, 122, 120)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Mitsubishi/6503/2000.mitsubishi.mirage.7900-T.jpg
Mitsubishi Mirage (2183, 92, 93)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Nissan/9584/2000.nissan.sentra.8259-T.jpg
Nissan Sentra XE (2548, 126, 129)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Suzuki/2459/2000.suzuki.esteem.10008-T.jpg
Suzuki Esteem (2227, 95, 99)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Suzuki/12605/2000.suzuki.swift.10013-T.jpg
Suzuki Swift (1895, 79, 75)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Toyota/13788/2000.toyota.corolla.10219-T.jpg
Toyota Corolla VE (2414, 125, 125)

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Toyota/1328/2000.toyota.echo.10218-T.jpg
Toyota Echo (2020, 108, 105)

So, is the problem that "nobody is building cars that fit" or "those don't fit my perception of what a race car should be?" I didnt' include the Mini here, since THAT does seem to fit preconceived notions - ignoring that its performance is right in line with some of these...

K

Joe Harlan

12-21-2006, 01:44 AM

I have to say there are several in that list that could be fun. I really think ITB and ITC are suffering from good economy at the moment and unfortunate but true that won't last forever. Money is cheap right now so bigger power is in. I remember when things weren't that good and ITC had full fields.

To bad I have to wait so long for this. I could see these little crash boxes all over the place.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/12/20/032137.1-lg.jpg

ddewhurst

12-21-2006, 08:32 AM

Do I se a move here from grocery getters to family sedans ?

Happy Holidays :biggrinsanta:

David

ps: With the inclusion of higher top end/hp/speed cars in IT & Production is there a silent message that no ones seeing/understanding ?

JeffYoung

12-21-2006, 09:07 AM

Think about it. If you can BUY a decent ITS RX7 for $6 to $8k, or even an IT7 First Gen for $3k, WHY would you spend that or more to drive an FWD econobox that is much slower?

I do think it is economics but perhaps a bit different than what we think. Is it expensive to run at the front of A and S? Yes. Is it AS cheap to buy a midpack S or A car (or even build honestly) as it is to buy or build a Bor C car? Yes.

I think this is what is killing B/C.

Andy Bettencourt

12-21-2006, 09:10 AM

Excellent effort here Kirk. Let's scrub it down:

- Escort, Nubira, Sephia, Spectra, Protege ES, Sentra, and Corolla are all ITA cars IMHO. 125+ stock hp in a small FWD car gets you to around 2150 race weight. Or 2650+ in ITB...

After that, you have only two cars (the Honda and the Mazda DX - maybe the Sentra?) that has any type of following here in the US. What motivates anyone to build a newish Kia or Hyundia into a race car? Is there any enthusiast following? Aftermarket support? Maybe with the booming Sport Compact market but...

Yes, these cars can be worked into A, B and C. Does it do ANYTHING to boost car counts or interest in SCCA or IT?

zracre

12-21-2006, 09:21 AM

simply classing them and allowing the door to be open to these cars wouldn't hurt...It would be good to see more cars in the mix in the B/C ranks...even if 1 or 2 cars are built it is more than we had before and could lead to more being built.

Joe Harlan

12-21-2006, 09:30 AM

Think about it. If you can BUY a decent ITS RX7 for $6 to $8k, or even an IT7 First Gen for $3k, WHY would you spend that or more to drive an FWD econobox that is much slower?

[/b]

Think sbout it. the 510 was nothing but an econobox until somebody raced one. As an old car salesman once said to me "there is an ass for every seat" I would say that there are just as many people out there that care more about a good race than what their final top speed was. B and C just need a good mix of cars classified that could b competitive and there will be people to run them.

And David, Don't read anything into the family sedan......I just bought a 5 acre place and all I plan to raise is a little hell...

JimLill

12-21-2006, 10:13 AM

Is part of this the fact the B & C cars tend to be entry level and a guy who is new to the game is pulled by the availability of existing cars or the knowledge and/or wherewithall to build a car.

If we really want to help the entry level people, more than car classing might be needed. A guide or cookbook would be a big help. If a someone starting up knew what car to start with and the path to get it into the hunt, he might go for it.

A year+ ago I knew little about what it might take to run mid-pack in any IT class. Thus, I ended up with a veteran 86 VW A2 ITB car which I refurbed. Do I regret that, not at all. But if I knew what it would have taken to take something more modern, one that suspension etc. was available for, I might have taken that path.

One area we can change on IT cars is the suspension. With a VW there's lots of suppliers of suspension bits. How about for the car proposed above?

So my thought is to help the entry level people a little more in that area so that they don't fear investing in a end of pack car.

cherokee

12-21-2006, 11:15 AM

Think sbout it. the 510 was nothing but an econobox until somebody raced one. As an old car salesman once said to me "there is an ass for every seat" I would say that there are just as many people out there that care more about a good race than what their final top speed was. B and C just need a good mix of cars classified that could b competitive and there will be people to run them.

And David, Don't read anything into the family sedan......I just bought a 5 acre place and all I plan to raise is a little hell...
[/b]

Yep the 510 was an econobox till someone raced one but I seem to remember one that was pretty hot back in its day and driven by some well know folks. This is the attraction to the 510 and why we want to race one now. Hay Mr. X drove one back in the early 70's it was cool. Can't say that about the Daewoo Nubira.

There are only 2 reasons to build/buy a given car. That car has a good chance of winning, or that car is something special to ME, These reasons have been talked about for years here as well as other places.

New people are given advise all day long not to build their first race car. To buy a car that is already on the track, turn key if you will. So the market for these un-proven cars would be to existing racers for the most part. Now that said anyone want to build one of these.......and the most important question is Why would you not build one?

Knestis

12-21-2006, 12:14 PM

Thoughts on the subject, in no particular order...

If you can BUY a decent ITS RX7 for $6 to $8k, or even an IT7 First Gen for $3k, WHY would you spend that or more to drive an FWD econobox that is much slower? [/b]

Because even that 2nd gen RX7 is 20 years old, parts are becoming more scarce, and costs are going to climb as the years go by. Jeff loves his old V8-powered British sports car but other people might love other things. If the TR8 weren't in the books when you started racing, Jeff would you have gone that route? If poopy little imports aren't listed, are we going to miss a piece of the market we don't even understand?

Are we letting our deeply-held beliefs of "what race cars should look like" slant our thinking to the point that we are marginalizing some portion of the potential racer market? The critical theorist in me is suggesting that maybe that's what the organization collectively WANTS to do, since only "those people" drive modded Kias and Hyundais.

125+ stock hp in a small FWD car gets you to around 2150 race weight. Or 2650+ in ITB...[/b]

Could be but I based my first cut through Edmunds.com keeping in mind that the Golf III (mfg. spec curb weight about 2500#) has trouble getting to a 2350 race weight - let alone 2150. In reality, it will depend on the car I'm sure.

What motivates anyone to build a newish Kia or Hyundia into a race car? Is there any enthusiast following?[/b] That IS a very fair question but it's sure different from, "manufacturers aren't building B and C cars" - the first premise questioned here.

Just for giggles, I Googled "Kia" and "racing"...

http://www.importperformanceparts.net/impo...importskia.html (http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/importskia.html) - aftermarket performance parts catalog

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/02/02/209252.html - Kia Rio Wins Ice Racing Title Again (some hack named Yvan Muller)

http://www.raceinspired.com/s-217-kia-spectra.aspx - solid clutch discs

http://www.optionimports.com/kia.html - stainless header for a Rio (seriously)

http://www.arkspeedracing.com/SearchResult...=Y&Redirected=Y (http://www.arkspeedracing.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=kia&Extensive_Search=Y&Redirected=Y) - strut bars

The short answer in this case might be "not so you'd notice" but there are Kias homologated by FIA for road racing and rallying, so there's almost certainly an offshore performance parts pipeline.

Yep the 510 was an econobox till someone raced one but I seem to remember one that was pretty hot back in its day and driven by some well know folks. This is the attraction to the 510 and why we want to race one now. ...[/b]

Why did anyone want to race them THEN? Because they could. The 510 is a great case. It was not a great race car out of the box (stupid rear suspension that defied all efforts to control camber) but it was cheap, rugged, and reasonably zippy.

This goes for pretty much any marque, but there was NO source for racing parts until there was someplace to race them, so that's kind of a red herring I think. The real question is, "Which comes first - interest or opportunity?" And which do rules makers have any control over?

K

Jeremy Billiel

12-21-2006, 12:24 PM

After that, you have only two cars (the Honda and the Mazda DX - maybe the Sentra?) that has any type of following here in the US. What motivates anyone to build a newish Kia or Hyundia into a race car? Is there any enthusiast following? Aftermarket support? Maybe with the booming Sport Compact market but...

[/b]

Andy - I tend to agree with you here, but if this logic prevailed than there would be no fast Saturns in ITA! :D

JimLill

12-21-2006, 12:38 PM

So I picked this as a test case....

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2000/Ford/9264/2000.ford.escort.3765-T.jpg

Googling the net I found:

- coil over kits
- Koni shocks
- exhaust header
- camber plates
- lightweight wheels

Obviously, the stock parts are available all over.

Bill Miller

12-21-2006, 12:57 PM

cherokee

12-21-2006, 12:58 PM

The short answer in this case might be "not so you'd notice" but there are Kias homologated by FIA for road racing and rallying, so there's almost certainly an offshore performance parts pipeline.
Why did anyone want to race them THEN? Because they could. The 510 is a great case. It was not a great race car out of the box (stupid rear suspension that defied all efforts to control camber) but it was cheap, rugged, and reasonably zippy.
[/b]

Nope not because they could,

Brand exposure. You know this as well as I, there was a VERY popular series that they where running in, with tons of car mfg's from all over the world, and they did pretty darn well. Do you think that sold some cars for Datsun? They where still very new to the US market, getting FACTORY backing in a NATIONAL racing series was good press. To attack the US car mfg's. in the 60's was a David and Goliath matchup, at least that is what everyone in the US was thinking...in Detroit. Toyota saw this and even gave it a try with the 2000GT. That car did not do very well but it put Toyota's name on peoples lips. Never discount the power of good PR, even Triumph in it's death throughs was spending $$$ to get their car seen, giving them to MASH stars and racing them.

So you see B&W pics of 510's with Alfa's, Driven by people who are the Who's Who in motorsports, this is why they are still popular, and will always be popular. Now tell me what a Suzuki Esteem brings to the table other then a warm body.

I would say that there are few new B or C cars that anyone wants to run, and people don't want to run them for a thousand different reasons. Put your cars on the list, and lets see if we see fields full of them when we do I will eat my words and buy you lunch.

charrbq

12-21-2006, 01:01 PM

I still think there are a number of cars in ITB/ITC that are already listed in the ITCS that are good candidates, but it doesn't help to have more. One of the problems is the desire to build one. If I was to start over again, I'd have to take a hard look at ITA and try to find the bucks to build one. It's not just a matter of go fast parts, it's a matter of all the parts and the interest. Look at any juvy hot rod magazine and the ads for add on parts make up most of the print.

The flash is in the hot rod imports just as it was twenty years ago with GTI's, GLH's, CRX's, and such. Except now, the stock cars are Integras, Miatas, etc. Those cars come from the factory with enough stuff to faster than my car...and can do it with the A/C on.

The arguement of the 510 econobox being a great race car is a little hollow. No one stumbled into making one go fast until the factory put their effort behind them. Same for the Mini of old, and the even the early Hondas.

shwah

12-21-2006, 01:56 PM

My initial take on Kirk's list was pretty much what Andy confirmed, FWD cars w/ 125 stock hp end up in ITA. If you put them in ITB, you do essentially what I was talking about a while back, you raise the bar.

Another problem w/ most of those cars, is that they're pretty heavy to start with. Most are North of 2400#, might be hard to get them to ITA weight, and they'd be pigs at ITB weight (essentially what happened w/ the New Beetle when it was put in ITC).

Gotta admit though, the Civic DX and the Mazda Protege look like naturals for ITB, and the Mitsu Mirage and the Hundai Accent look like naturals for ITC. And they're 'sporty' enough looking, and in the case of the Honda and the Mazda, have some racing heritage, that people may actually want to race them.
[/b]

Go put a stock 16v VW on the scales. My bet is it will be in the 2450 range. 123/134 hp for 1.8/2.0 respectively. I agree, lots of those cars look like A material.

Kirk's point is valid regardless. We should be classifying every car that we can identify as an appropriate candidate and find the necessary tech specs on (not the whole VTS sheet, but the items needed for ITAC to run their process).

Starting from 1990 on I expect we can still find a lot of options for every class (except maybe R since it was recently reviewed ad-nauseum).

cherokee

12-21-2006, 02:20 PM

I could not agree more, if the car fits classify it, but leave the door open for adjustments. If you decide to classify a Daewoo Lanos and miss the mark by a mile leave room to fix it.

Say you class the car this year and it sits on the books for 10 years before someone chooses to build the first one. Now he asks the IT.com of 2016 and they say he is crazy that car was set with a crazy weight or whatever back in the day there is no chance it will come close to even hanging on to the end of the field, of 300hp ITC cars. The guy that wanted to race one goes away or races something else. Now what was the point of using the ink for that line, oh yea it looked good we have all these cars you could race. I know I am streching it a bit here but I think you understand the idea behind it.

Sound like something we have come across before?

Andy Bettencourt

12-21-2006, 02:20 PM

Andy - I tend to agree with you here, but if this logic prevailed than there would be no fast Saturns in ITA! :D [/b]

I don't know of any. :P

Seriously, there are what, 2 or 3 in the country? And it took a Saturn engineer to build 2 of them...that is the point!

Chris is right on with the 510, without BRE support, would it have ever caught on. Hell, it's one of my favorite cars.

The Best. (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby4Pg4IpFAYUA9FSjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN 0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=14af8pv3a/EXP=1166815840/**http%3a//www.nissannews.com/multimedia/motorsports2004/800px/Motorsports%2520Heritage/BRE%2520at%2520Laguna%2520Seca.jpg)

Knestis

12-21-2006, 02:35 PM

...Brand exposure. You know this as well as I, there was a VERY popular series that they where running in, with tons of car mfg's from all over the world,... [/b] Sounds a little like IT. :) My point is that the series had to exist first - then the racers came. Whether it's factories commiting to a "pro" series or club guys building new cars for IT, that is a given.
The more I think about the "healthy aftermarket" issue, the less of an issue it becomes. I did a quick mental inventory and the sum of the VW-specific aftermarket bits on the Golf is:

Struts
Clutch differential
Chip
Header
A arm spherical bushings
Rear strut top bushings
Front strut camber plates & bearings

Uhhh, that's it...

A motivated entrepreneur could gin up to build small lots of the last three in a well equipped home garage. The Walt Puckett-magician types can squeeze out a header for anything. There's a lot of crossover in parts like struts nowadays, too. Diffs can be welded. Call Lee Grimes about the struts, and...?

Remember, we have no obligation to make sure that every car listed is going to be easy or competitive - or easy to make competitive. Jeff L. bought the aforementioned Saturn KNOWING that if his trick ECU takes a dump, he's going to have a tough time replacing it. We make our choices and live with the costs and benefits.

...if the car fits classify it, but leave the door open for adjustments. If you decide to classify a Daewoo Lanos and miss the mark by a mile leave room to fix it. ...[/b]
Hey, way to support competition adjustments (bleah). I hope they work FOR you as often as they work against you. The assumption here might be a little unkind but do a quick selfcheck: Are you motivated to make this statement because you are afraid of something popping onto the grid that challenges your existing place in the competitive food chain? Are you willing to accept it when the tides turn and you are on the receiving end of a fix?

The system is in place so that shouldn't be an issue.

K

JeffYoung

12-21-2006, 02:38 PM

Joe Harlan

12-21-2006, 02:54 PM

Look guys, I'm not saying don't class these cars. I'm all for it as a matter of fact. I think pro-active classification of cars, instead of waiting one someone to ask for a classification, is one area where we as a group have not been active enough. Let's absolutely class these cars and I'm willing to help do it.

I'm just telling you guys that having spoken to a lot (probably 10-15, and 4 who actually went racing) of folks interested in racing, I don't hear a lot about "how can I get my Kia in?"

But I have always believed we should proactively class, so let's do it. Kirk, any help you need with finding numbers, etc., let me know.
[/b]

Its funny that the KIA keeps coming up. I have a friend that works or worked (been a while) for their motorsports program. When I did the Baja 500 they had a fairly large factory effort there. I think there would be some interest if there was interest is the SCCA brand. I honestly have never looked at a Kia in the shop to even see what the potential may be in them.
Soebody must think they are good?

http://www.rceng.com/kiarim.jpg

JeffYoung

12-21-2006, 03:05 PM

Kia, Hyundai, etc. I'm sure that those factories have backed racing in various forms at various times. But that is not the question. The question is will someone with the interest and the $$$ to go amateur road racing build one. I think a few might but most will not.

That said, I see absolutely no harm and only positives in classing these cars. So let's do it.

As far as potential goes, it looks to me like most of them are FWD, strut based approx 110-130 hp cars. Not much difference in them. Class'em, maybe they will come.

cherokee

12-21-2006, 03:19 PM

Heck I am at the bottom of the food chain now perhaps if I could drive and........:lol:

It should not be looked at as a for or against you kind of deal. It should be looked at as what is best for the EXISTING cars in the given class. I am all for bringing in new blood don't get me wrong. But these cars are cars that VERY few people want to drive, I have no problem in classing them but it is not going to fix anything. With VERY few execptions ITB & ITC are dinosaur classes, cars that people would want to race do not fit here anymore, el-cheapo sporty econoboxes are just a tough fit. I asked in another thread for info on the new Beetle, 2760lbs to get it to fit (hopefully) into ITC, are there anyone running one. Or is the seasoned racer looking at it (remember we all advise newbee's to buy) that thing might be fun but it is porky.

So I will stand by what I have said, there are VERY few new ITC/B cars (that people would want to race). That is just the way it is, and if gas hits $3+ we might see 100hp sporty cars.

There is a new class in IT called ITR look at the cars in there
Supra
SHO Tarus
v-6 mustang
v-6 camero
RS-X
.......

There is something on that list for everyone, the import guy, the American car guy, the American FWD car guy. These are cars that have passion in even the most casual owner, now look at the list of B & C cars you provided. Do you realy think anyone would want to build one, is there any passion for the Kia Sephia?

Lets say the guy driving the IT 510 gets it bent and is looking at a new car. He has options, build another 510 (he thinks I love this car), looks at the list of new cars and says the Kia Sephia looks good on paper, but yuck, or for the same money I could build a Z3. You get the idea.
I will tell you what will happen he will build the 510 or the new car he has passion for, and the Sephia will sit on the spec line.

Joe Harlan

12-21-2006, 03:43 PM

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/kiaracingclub/

200 members is it worth the chance you may get 1 per division..?

lateapex911

12-21-2006, 04:03 PM

I think...and it's an opinion that probably is worth...well, lets not go there..LOL, .....that people race cars they think are "cool" and that they like. And they choose the car based on what they can rationalize.

Back in the ice age of IT< the 510 wasn't REALLY an econobox...it had IRS, a decent overacheiving engine, and was considered cool. The BMW 2002 was a competitor, as was the Mazda RX-2. Heck, C&D (I think) did a comparison tests of the "sport coupes" and those were the three cars chosen.

So I think we need to figure out whats cool.
Hondas...always. Heck the Fit might be a C car. And the Mazda 3 seems to be cool. But Kia? Hmmmm.

Joe Harlan

12-21-2006, 04:30 PM

gran racing

12-21-2006, 05:08 PM

Cherokee, I've gotta disagree with what you said. No matter how often we all say buy someone else's car, there will be many, many people who build their cars. From the people I've spoken with, the trend continues to be "I have an X type of car and want to begin racing it." We continiously see this on various forms, and people who instruct at PDEs / HPDEs also hear this quite often. I'm in the process of building my second '87 Prelude, and had no desire to buy someone elses car. You may find that's silly, but oh well. Why did I originally choose to build an '87 Prelude? It was sitting out in my driveway, wasn't worth very much, and it seemed like the logical thing to do.

ITR? Sure, I'd love to be racing in that class. Just about every day I drive my S2000 to work, I fantasize about making that my racecar. For many people, there are cars we'd love to race and then there are cars we race, and learn to love to race. Is a Kia cool? Ha! Of course it isn't. Is a stock '87 Prelude cool (also insert many cars we race)? No. That is until is has some neat SCCA decals, racing numbers, a louder exhaust, and other neat goodies. Now its cool!! (Funny how my not so cool Prelude gets the garage while the S2K sits outside in the cold. :) )

Often times when people look to get into racing, they look where their streetcar is already classed never giving much thought to attempting to class it themselves. If new cars are added to the class, maybe, just maybe those people who have them sitting out in their driveways will decide to transform it into what will then become a cool racecar. Getting more people into club racing will take several steps. While this may not alone produce significant results, this is one item to accomplishing this goal.

Knestis

12-21-2006, 05:32 PM

... the Kia Sephia looks good on paper, but yuck, or for the same money I could build a Z3. You get the idea.[/b]

http://images.cars.com/actual/main/DMI/100531/V5316957.jpg

1997 Kia Sephia RS - $1,377

Dude - score ME a $1400 Z3! :)

And that one is from a dealer. Private party parity makes that an $800 car. How about spare parts? These are the yard cars of today, as bazillions have been sold and prices go down and down.

K

Joe Harlan

12-21-2006, 06:12 PM

http://images.cars.com/actual/main/DMI/100531/V5316957.jpg

1997 Kia Sephia RS - $1,377

Dude - score ME a $1400 Z3! :)

And that one is from a dealer. Private party parity makes that an $800 car. How about spare parts? These are the yard cars of today, as bazillions have been sold and prices go down and down.

K
[/b]
At that price i'll take 3. Kia rental fleet.....Who would have ever thought of a renault appliance as a race car....:) Parker Johnstone..... :eclipsee_steering:

JeffYoung

12-21-2006, 06:19 PM

Joe Harlan

12-21-2006, 06:23 PM

Again guys, I'm all for classing that stuff.

But honestly, between paying $800 for that, spending $1500 on a cage, plus another $1k for wheels, seat, etc. at least and spending $3 to $4k on an IT7 car, or on an ITA CRX, I sure wouldn't be dialing up KiaSpeed for parts.

Let's class'em though. As Joe says, even 1 per division, hell even ONE at all, makes it worth it.
[/b]

Haha Jeff, as I said an ass for every seat.......Who in their right mind (kidding here) would ever consider a TR8 for ITS? I am betting the Kia has better brakes.....lol :114:

cherokee

12-21-2006, 10:18 PM

Oh I agree there are many people who want to build a car, I did the same thing. I started building the Opel for a year (Perhaps I should say welding it back together) then decided to go buy a MR2. But you must agree that for someone just starting out the overwelming advise has been to buy a proven car, one that will get you past school with no problems. I will also say that an 87' Prelude has a lot going for it that a Daewoo does the biggest is that it is a Honda. The company is a little more active in motorsports then most mentioned in K's list. It does have a coolness factor to it, it is racy looking in its own way. I tried to talk my neighbor in to using his wifes old car for an IT doner, but at 6'7" and almost 300 he is a pretty big ole boy, (and handy for picking up trannys) He is also jumping at the idea of V-6 Mustangs. A big man needs a big car.

You picked the S2000 something almost as pricey as doing a Porsche Boxster, but look at the other cars on that list some can be had pretty darn cheap. A 6cyl mustang that is under a grand around here.

And reguards to the $1400 Kia, after you replace the ball joints, rod ends, struts, wheel bearings, rotors, and everything else that has worn out on this car that has been built to a price point. These cars are in junkyards everywhere for a reason, they wear out, they are the automotive equilvent of a toster, it dies toss it in the trash and get another.

If you build a rental Kia and I build a rental CRX and both are available for the same price which one is going to get rented more? Both are going to cost about the same to build, one has a kind of coolness factor to it.

What I say is class any and every car that you think will fit, there might be someone out there that might want to race one. But if you are looking to cars of this type to bring new life into the class I think you are missing the target.

And while I think Jeff should ask for a parchute to help slow him down, I have never seen his car but I bet few IT cars sound like his. I would drive across the country just to hear it go down the straight.

tnord

12-21-2006, 11:06 PM

What I say is class any and every car that you think will fit, there might be someone out there that might want to race one. But if you are looking to cars of this type to bring new life into the class I think you are missing the target.
[/b]

i don't know where you live in Kansas City, but you must be real close to Overland Park, because we're thinking exactly the same way.

i just can't understand why anyone would fight these cars being classed if you have any faith in the ITAC and their new process. i don't think anyone reasonably expects these cars to be the saving grace of ITB or ITC. but that's not the point, the point is to make it easier for people to join SCCA and start racing. who cares if they race a kia for only 6mos and then moves on to ITS, FP, or FC? the objective is to get them in and get them hooked, even if it's just a handful.

Knestis

12-22-2006, 12:51 AM

Uh, hello Travis? Some of us who race crappy little ITB cars can actually read here...

I feel like the caveman (sorry, Neanderthal American) in the insurance commercials. "Oh, yeah - ITB is fine. As long as we can get new drivers out of those crapboxes and into real racing cars. Something in F Production, maybe."

You mean like a Turner or a Fiat X-1/9? Or a Alfetta GT?? The future of Club Racing.

But I think prevailing opinions here have given me my answer. Thanks.

K

StephenB

12-22-2006, 01:45 AM

the other issue you have is that it is very difficult for the average member to get a car classified especially if it is an oddball. Not every car is classified unless the CRB or ITC decides it would be int he best interest of the members. I can request it but if it doesn't have any member interest (IE your the only person to request it) It will not be classified. This it the main reason I haven't spent the HRs to get the data needed as I am afraid I am the only one that will request it. I may be wrong with the several changes over the last year or so and If I am let me know so I can start requesting away :) I personally want to build a new car... probably a 1.8 focus for ITB but if I where to try and get a car classified I would probably try and classify at minmimum 5 different models then pick the best of the best that I like depending on the class.

Anyway correct me if it has changed but the Last I knew there had to be member interest to even have it looked at or you normally would get shot down.
Stephen

gran racing

12-22-2006, 08:10 AM

Kirk, I think that was more of a dig on the Kia vs. ITB. Besides, who cares if they race an ITB car and then moves on to World Challenge and Grand Am Cup. Eric Curran comes to mind. :happy204:

I can request it but if it doesn't have any member interest (IE your the only person to request it) It will not be classified.[/b]

My prelude classification quickly comes to mind. ;) I requested that ~ 3 1/2 years ago and I'm sure there was very little member interest. Send your request in!

Andy Bettencourt

12-22-2006, 08:40 AM

Stephen,

You are wrong on one point. If somone requests a car to be classified, it gets classified. That one persons interest is all the CRB needs to make a move (provided it isn't too much for ITR).

And I agree with Dave's assesment on Trav's comments. It's not that ITB and ITC are 'uncool', it's that most everything new we are looking at seemingly has no core following - or ANY following in the US for that matter. Take away the tuner crowd who likes to jack up their street rides and what do you have?

Hell, two of my all-time favs are in ITB and ITC, the 2002 and the 510.

tnord

12-22-2006, 08:49 AM

kirk -

those guys are exactly right, my post was a response to those who were saying the kia/protege/etc aren't real race cars that very many people would want to build. what i was doing was essentially laying out the scenario for the least possible amount of benefit ITB/ITC would receive from classing those cars, making the point that it's still good for the club for us to do so. i personally would think it's great if people built these cars and stayed in the class.

Bob Burns

12-22-2006, 08:50 AM

tnord

12-22-2006, 08:57 AM

i don't think so, especially in the case with the rabbit and 510, those have had enthusiast following since the beginning, and lots of people that love them enough to want to race them.

Joe Harlan

12-22-2006, 08:59 AM

Andy, in your mind, where does the Scion xA (1500cc, 103hp, 101 lb-ft, 2340 lbs curb) fit? Or is it too slow for even ITC?

Granted, the low end of today's car market may be real sh*t boxes, but so were Rabbits, Civics, and 510s at one time.

Bob...
[/b]

There you go and here's a fact. If a Scion gets built and wins anything serious it will end up with a following...

Andy Bettencourt

12-22-2006, 09:09 AM

Joe Harlan

12-22-2006, 09:17 AM

oops

Knestis

12-22-2006, 09:31 AM

I still a lot of us are guilty of not being able to look at the question of coolness through any but our own lens.

Perceptions of "sportiness" or "enthusiast following" are colored by looking back at pics of 2-liter TransAm cars. Unless the suggestion is that some "pro" series publicity is necessary (a la Rabbit Bilstein Cup or TA) to establish a bona fide road racing following..? And then club-level racing comes later? There's absolutely no question that the Rabbit and 510 were better than most of the other oil embargo grocery getters, but that's is PRECISELY what VW and Datsun designed them to be.

On a related note, the '92-95 era Civic DX that's currently in A (essentially identical to the later 106-hp model posted here earlier) - what keeps it out of B?

K

cherokee

12-22-2006, 10:54 AM

I agree that they where better then most of the 70's econo cars, but it is a problem with the times. In the 70's everyone was loosing the LTD with the 460 and going to the Datsun with the 4cyl because there was NO GAS. I am not sure how old you are but I can remember the lines, I was only a kid at the time but I remember. There was no choice the gas was not there. So people wanted fuel sipping cars, people also wanted sporty and fun cars. So we got Pinto's and Pacers as well as some nifty little cars like Cosworth Vega's, Fiat,Datsun,Alfa..... This was a new thing before this a small car was a Falcon with a small V8 in it, for the most part. Now there was a sub 2.0L race class that these new cars where tossed in, and I would guess one reason for it was to show case that these little cars could be fun and you did not need 400+ cubic inches to have fun.

Fast forward to today. Gas is everywhere (at the moment) there is no incentive for you to have a fuel sipping car. (outside of goverment pay outs).

To take the new Beetle for an example, a car that I would call a cool car. Look how heavy it had to be made to fit, although it does in my eyes bring IT back to its roots, put a cage in and go.

I don't want to use the word problem so let me say, the issue with B & C is more then just HP. It is technology. A modern 1.9l is going to put out way more ponys then my 1.9l. If someone made a new 850 Fiat spider I bet it would be too fast for ITC. Just because of the power output. Look at the HP they are getting out of small motorcycle engines, they are over that of most of the ITC and ITB cars with IT mods done to them.

If I understand the above post correctly reguarding the xA, it is 2340 at the curb and to make it fit it would have to come in at 2425? Over the curb weight. I would think that most racers would give it a pass on this issue alone.

I think that this is a VERY hard issue to deal with and unless the new car market changes direction the C & B will slowly fade away. (remember I have a B car). What to do to fix it, I don't know.

Perhaps the initial question should be So what's this junk about no (good) new ITC/ITB cars??

lateapex911

12-22-2006, 11:14 AM

Andy, in your mind, where does the Scion xA (1500cc, 103hp, 101 lb-ft, 2340 lbs curb) fit? Or is it too slow for even ITC?

Granted, the low end of today's car market may be real sh*t boxes, but so were Rabbits, Civics, and 510s at one time.

Bob...
[/b]

I'm not Andy, and I don't know a lot about the Scion, but....some quick math and ....maybe 2240 or so in B?

gran racing

12-22-2006, 11:20 AM

Is the motivation of people buying these lower hp cars that were listed due to fuel economy or due to the cost of the car? What is the target age group for IT prospective racers? This changes what is thought as a cool car, and why they might own a lower HP car. For example, if you're talking Males in the mid 20s/early thirties, many in this range bought inexpensive cars during college and are starting to have more expendible income. I would also be very surprised if the people in this target market bought these cars based on if they are good on gas or not.

Bill Miller

12-22-2006, 11:53 AM

I'm not Andy, and I don't know a lot about the Scion, but....some quick math and ....maybe 2240 or so in B?
[/b]

That's where I would have gone w/ it Jake. It's about the same as an A2 Golf, in terms of power,

shwah

12-22-2006, 02:19 PM

That's where I would have gone w/ it Jake. It's about the same as an A2 Golf, in terms of power,
[/b]
That was my off the cuff reaction as well.

Bill Miller

12-23-2006, 08:40 AM

I would guess around 2425 in ITC...
[/b]

;)

lateapex911

12-23-2006, 01:10 PM

That seems like you'd have to add weight to make it fit C. And it's 1500cc, and will put out more than C horsepower. Granted, it's shaped ...well, it IS a brick, LOL. But at first glance it looks more B than C to me.

Knestis

12-23-2006, 01:47 PM

... On a related note, the '92-95 era Civic DX that's currently in A (essentially identical to the later 106-hp model posted here earlier) - what keeps it out of B?

K
[/b]

??

K

JimLill

12-23-2006, 01:52 PM

Not on the list of potentials is YBA FWD... 99-02 Mercury Cougar

http://images.autotrader.com/images/2006/11/15/212/552/1223570456.212552961.IM1.MAIN.240x180_A.240x120.jp g

a heavy I4

Bill Miller

12-23-2006, 02:32 PM

On a related note, the '92-95 era Civic DX that's currently in A (essentially identical to the later 106-hp model posted here earlier) - what keeps it out of B?

K
[/b]

You'd have to change the cage and buy new wheels?

Bob Burns

12-23-2006, 03:17 PM

Granted, it's shaped ...well, it IS a brick, LOL. But at first glance it looks more B than C to me.[/b]
Not exactly.

The xB is a brick. The xA is swoopier. Both use the same mechanicals.

Bob...

tderonne

12-23-2006, 05:48 PM

And just for the record, the escort ZX2 as seen way above is classed as an SSC car, and as an ITA car.

green golf

12-23-2006, 05:49 PM

I say class these cars. Sometimes people want to race so bad they will run whatever they can get their hands on, I.E. Pinto or a Plymouth fire Arrow ( wtf !?! ) If any of you have ever driven a stock Golf GL or a Rabbit L you would think theres no way this would make a good car. Take a Golf and add a set of Hoosiers and a set of Ground Controls , grow a set of huevos and you can do fairly well in your division or at the ARRC. Its just a question of how bad you want to make a Kia Sephia or a Daewoo Lanos work.

On the other hand, its the Scions , the Focus, and the ever present Civic thats going to attract the younger people and keep the numbers up. I'm 29 and im gonna run my A2 as long as i can. Who knows, 10 or 12 years from now i could be running an 07 2.5 Rabbit. A few of us know how bad the original ones sucked :023:

Aged racer

12-23-2006, 07:46 PM

Ya'll haven't mentioned yet that there's a bunch of late '90's and early 00's current SS cars that will need a home in IT. These cars already have the cages and have little street value- IT conversion is about the only choice (ex. the 1st gen Neons in ITA). We need a place to go with our cars when they are no longer competitive, and most of us want more than regional SS to play in. I own half of an SSC 2000 Protege ES, not even remotely competitive nationally. Perfect IT car- I'm sure it will be ITA, which is unfortunate as it has the aero of a barn door and weighs too much. I'd do ITB with a weight penalty in a heartbeat.

Let's not discourage classifying these cars- it will be good for IT.

Steve

Bill Miller

12-24-2006, 10:32 AM

Not exactly.

The xB is a brick. The xA is swoopier. Both use the same mechanicals.

Bob...
[/b]

Yeah Bob, but doesn't the xB qualify as a wagon, and therefore not legal?

Bob Burns

12-26-2006, 09:24 AM

Interesting. GCR 9.1.3.E. prohibits classifying station wagons in IT, but I can't find a definition of station wagon in the GCR. The EPA classifies the Scion xA as a "Subcompact Car" and the xB as a "Small Station Wagon". In my original question, I asked about the xA, not the xB. The question is moot for a while, anyway, because the oldest Scions are 2004 models and not eligible for classification for a few years.

Bob...

charrbq

12-26-2006, 10:40 AM

Interesting...the average man on the street, or gal in the gas station looks at my Civic and tells me it's not a race car, it's a station wagon. Quite humbling on the ego. :eclipsee_steering:

Andy Bettencourt

12-26-2006, 12:15 PM

Interesting...the average man on the street, or gal in the gas station looks at my Civic and tells me it's not a race car, it's a station wagon. Quite humbling on the ego. :eclipsee_steering: [/b]

I just sold my 86 Si. At the time I owned it, I also had an Expedition. When I went to take my kids somewhere, my 4 year old wanted to know if we were taking the blue truck (Ford) or the red truck (Honda).

It's all about the shape! Not to mention that every kid under 21 wanted to race me when I was in the Si...I was content on getting 40mpg with my 91hp. :)

Knestis

12-26-2006, 08:44 PM

Figuring it makes the most sense to start with the low-hanging fruit, I just sent in a request that the 92-95 Civic DX be re-examined for movement to ITB. It's less of a tweener issue - I think - because the Coupe and 4-dr versions are heavy enough that there's little question about getting them to the flyweight spec necessary to fit the formula for A. (Heading off the problem that the ITAC has run into with the pre-92 DX hatchback.)

Please review classification and specificaion of the Honda Civic DX (3 & 4 door)(92-95) for re-listing in ITB, at a race weight established by currently accepted processes.

The Civic DX of this generation was delivered with a 1.5-liter engine, quoted at 102hp and 98ft-lbs of torque (www.edmunds.com), in three model variants:

Hatchback (3-door) - 101.3" wheelbase, 2178# curb wt.
Coupe (3-door) - 103.2" wheelbase, 2231# curb wt.
Sedan (4-door) - 103.2" wheelbase, 2313# curb wt.

It is therefore requested that the make/model description and wheelbase specifications of that line of the ITCS also be adjusted to reflect this.

Watch for FasTrack response and make comments so we can get this car into B where it belongs.

Maybe someone else could please request classification of the 96-00 DX in B as well?

K

EDIT - PS, it's my understanding that part of the reason Wolin went with the Kia Production rally program with the Sephia is that they had so much experience with the Mitsubishis. They are pretty much the same under the skin, or so I'm told. That's increasingly the case (Mazda/Ford being another example), making it just that little bit more plausible to race something that might on the surface seem like an oddball.