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View Full Version : Recent thoughts I have had about national classes



shwah
12-15-2006, 01:48 PM
OK so I have had some new ideas lately about the SCCA class structure in general. Much of it is obvious, and when you really look at it the solutions not hard to see either. They just are not very likely to ever be discussed because so many people have vested interest in their share of the 'problem'. This is just thinking out loud stuff, but could be a fun conversation.

I have never felt the IT 'national question' was very important, could take it or leave it, and bought the common arguments for why it didn't make sense - often centered around too many classes. Now give some thought to the past 5 years of class structure in SCCA road racing. How many classes went away? How many were created?

Now for the obvious part. WE HAVE TOO MANY CLASSES. Too many national classes, too many regional classes. Too many classes period. This spreads resorces thin on every level. Regions have to fit too many classes onto the track in a finite amount of time, tech has to have the ability to police too many different classes/cars, CRB has to spend time managing too many rule sets, cars are spread across so many classes that counts are low, car prep is more expensive because there is less volume opportunity for parts, too few competitors in a given class to have meaningful competition in many cases.

Individually I do not disagree with most of the new classes, but it is obvious that the club is taking a shotgun approach, and acting in each case without considering the overall effect (or rolling over at the request of an auto manufacturer dangling $$).

What we need, not surprisingly, is a 'global classification strategy'. Something like:

2 winged formula classes, one slower/cheaper, one faster/more expensive.
Formula 1000 is a great fit for the former, it makes FC redundant and unreasonably expensive. End the FC class, all of those drivers already have developed chassis that can be applied to F1000, and now that they don't have to measure engine life in hours before a very expensive rebuild they even have the funds available to change powertrain to fit F1000 rules. The latter could be many things - FA, FSCCA

2 no-wing formula classes, one slower/cheaper, one faster/more expensive.
Formula Ford and Formula Vee are the starting points for this. Move them to a reasonable power plant spec and this one is done. I am thinking IT prep level (with cams) Zetec motors in the Ford and not really sure about the FV (don't even know if those are expensive, maybe they are fine as is).

2 (or 3) sports racer classes, one slower/cheaper, one faster/more expensive. SRF is slower/cheaper, but could probably be given new legs with some power train updates. CSR/DSR/S2000, not sure what to do here. I could see S2000 cars moving to CSR with powertrain changes. Maybe you end up with 2 'open' classes and one spec class. No chainsaw racing classes - we already have a spec sports racer. If you want smaller/cheaper look into shifter karts (you get to shift that way too!)

Develop a sensible structure to move cars from T and IT to Prod to GT.
4 T classes - this is done now

4 IT classes with a National development path into Prod. B,A,S,R. C cars considered on a request only basis, but the other classes with a pre-defined class.

4 Prod/Prep classes D,E,F,G. G and H could exist together with appropriate changes. All new cars to be 'Limited Prep'. Revisit B and D Prepared and find a way to fit everything into 4 classifications. Maybe even re-evaluation the whole prod concept since it has morphed into GT for vintage cars. Run everything with Prepared type rules, get rid of the tiny restrictors, required data logging for all Turbo cars and allow them to race with restrictions similar to the World Challenge classes.

4 GT classes. They exist, but are not real healthy. This process should help them, especialy in the lower classes, gain racers. Maybe consider making the GT1 Class closer to World Challenge GT rule set, rather than the defunct Trans Am rule set (for that matter, rebrand WC as TransAm - the cars in WC today are closer to the philosophy of Trans Am in it's heyday IMO.)

2 MAX model specific sports car classes. Spec Miata is not a bad class, as evidenced by the participation, but it should be reviewed for relevance every year. If the car goes off the market, or changes philisophically off the showroom floor, 3 years following the class drops and they go IT or Prod or GT racing. This way the club has the ability to ride the wave of other 'good fit' vehicles as they hit the market, and are not stuck with a white elephant in 15 years when everything changes.

That leaves us with 20 classes. Heck 21 would be a good round number for a 3 day runoffs program (or add 4 IT classes for a nice round 24). Race scheduling and management will be easier, promotion and television would be easier, track time would go up, competition would go up. All good things IMO.


Now regionally, it would also make sense to simplify classification (why again are there 2 Spec Miata classes at my regionals?!?), but I don't see much movement there until action were taken at a national level.


I know this would never happen, but if it did the club would improve IMO. So let me know all the points of view I missed and all the changes I didn't consider, and flame away in general.

Joe Harlan
12-16-2006, 01:00 AM
OK so I have had some new ideas lately about the SCCA class structure in general. Much of it is obvious, and when you really look at it the solutions not hard to see either. They just are not very likely to ever be discussed because so many people have vested interest in their share of the 'problem'. This is just thinking out loud stuff, but could be a fun conversation.

I have never felt the IT 'national question' was very important, could take it or leave it, and bought the common arguments for why it didn't make sense - often centered around too many classes. Now give some thought to the past 5 years of class structure in SCCA road racing. How many classes went away? How many were created?

Now for the obvious part. WE HAVE TOO MANY CLASSES. Too many national classes, too many regional classes. Too many classes period. This spreads resorces thin on every level. Regions have to fit too many classes onto the track in a finite amount of time, tech has to have the ability to police too many different classes/cars, CRB has to spend time managing too many rule sets, cars are spread across so many classes that counts are low, car prep is more expensive because there is less volume opportunity for parts, too few competitors in a given class to have meaningful competition in many cases.

Individually I do not disagree with most of the new classes, but it is obvious that the club is taking a shotgun approach, and acting in each case without considering the overall effect (or rolling over at the request of an auto manufacturer dangling $$).

What we need, not surprisingly, is a 'global classification strategy'. Something like:

2 winged formula classes, one slower/cheaper, one faster/more expensive.
Formula 1000 is a great fit for the former, it makes FC redundant and unreasonably expensive. End the FC class, all of those drivers already have developed chassis that can be applied to F1000, and now that they don't have to measure engine life in hours before a very expensive rebuild they even have the funds available to change powertrain to fit F1000 rules. The latter could be many things - FA, FSCCA

2 no-wing formula classes, one slower/cheaper, one faster/more expensive.
Formula Ford and Formula Vee are the starting points for this. Move them to a reasonable power plant spec and this one is done. I am thinking IT prep level (with cams) Zetec motors in the Ford and not really sure about the FV (don't even know if those are expensive, maybe they are fine as is).

2 (or 3) sports racer classes, one slower/cheaper, one faster/more expensive. SRF is slower/cheaper, but could probably be given new legs with some power train updates. CSR/DSR/S2000, not sure what to do here. I could see S2000 cars moving to CSR with powertrain changes. Maybe you end up with 2 'open' classes and one spec class. No chainsaw racing classes - we already have a spec sports racer. If you want smaller/cheaper look into shifter karts (you get to shift that way too!)

Develop a sensible structure to move cars from T and IT to Prod to GT.
4 T classes - this is done now

4 IT classes with a National development path into Prod. B,A,S,R. C cars considered on a request only basis, but the other classes with a pre-defined class.

4 Prod/Prep classes D,E,F,G. G and H could exist together with appropriate changes. All new cars to be 'Limited Prep'. Revisit B and D Prepared and find a way to fit everything into 4 classifications. Maybe even re-evaluation the whole prod concept since it has morphed into GT for vintage cars. Run everything with Prepared type rules, get rid of the tiny restrictors, required data logging for all Turbo cars and allow them to race with restrictions similar to the World Challenge classes.

4 GT classes. They exist, but are not real healthy. This process should help them, especialy in the lower classes, gain racers. Maybe consider making the GT1 Class closer to World Challenge GT rule set, rather than the defunct Trans Am rule set (for that matter, rebrand WC as TransAm - the cars in WC today are closer to the philosophy of Trans Am in it's heyday IMO.)

2 MAX model specific sports car classes. Spec Miata is not a bad class, as evidenced by the participation, but it should be reviewed for relevance every year. If the car goes off the market, or changes philisophically off the showroom floor, 3 years following the class drops and they go IT or Prod or GT racing. This way the club has the ability to ride the wave of other 'good fit' vehicles as they hit the market, and are not stuck with a white elephant in 15 years when everything changes.

That leaves us with 20 classes. Heck 21 would be a good round number for a 3 day runoffs program (or add 4 IT classes for a nice round 24). Race scheduling and management will be easier, promotion and television would be easier, track time would go up, competition would go up. All good things IMO.
Now regionally, it would also make sense to simplify classification (why again are there 2 Spec Miata classes at my regionals?!?), but I don't see much movement there until action were taken at a national level.
I know this would never happen, but if it did the club would improve IMO. So let me know all the points of view I missed and all the changes I didn't consider, and flame away in general.
[/b]

We have this exact thread going at http://www.saveclubracing.com these are the exact things that need worked for a proper long term business plan.

Ron Earp
12-16-2006, 07:22 AM
Joe,

Why not ask the administrator to add a subforum over here called something like "Club Racing Discussion" and have the talks here? I'm sure they'd be open to it, and, a lot more folks would read it.

I went to www.saveclubracing.com and tried to register. But the registration process kept dumping with some sort of parse error so I gave up. I wouldn't mind reading and discussing club racing issues.

Best,
Ron

Bill Miller
12-16-2006, 07:45 AM
(for that matter, rebrand WC as TransAm - the cars in WC today are closer to the philosophy of Trans Am in it's heyday IMO.)
[/b]

Chris,

I suggested the same thing on the Prod board 3 or 4 weeks ago. Seems to make sense to me. As far as D and B Prepared go, I think those could be rolled into the existing GT structure today, w/o the need for seperate classes.

I like your idea, but you've left out SS. Given that the T3 of 2006 (now T4) is the slowest Touring class, you need at least 1 class below that (to pick up the SSC cars). If we don't need the 'new' T1, then 4 classes work.

dickita15
12-16-2006, 08:54 AM
A few times over the years I have been part of discussion on what would be the ideal class structure if we could disregard history and were starting from scratch. How many classes would we really need? I think the number could be lower, although beer is usually involved in these debates.

Formula/ sports racing. I would have one formula class with a small limited prep motor and no wings so fill that entry-level FV/F5/FF slot. One winged higher-powered class maybe like the new F1000. One Spec Racer class and one high tech fast sports racer class. One of those four should suit just about anyone wanting a pure racecar.

Door cars. Maybe three classes for tube frame or highly modified tub cars. And 4 classes with a limited prep similar to IT.

That is 11 classes that should satisfy most people. A suppose one class like spec miata helps as well. So that is 12.

Then there is the issue of SS/Touring. This might seem funny but I look at these very different from traditional club racing classes. Instead of a class for guys to race these seem to be all about the manufacturers. These classes are based of the business needs of the drivers the club and the car companies, so create and destroy these as the business demands. I really do not think this category has much to do with the typical club racer.

lateapex911
12-16-2006, 10:21 AM
Then htere's the "That's great, but what do we REALLY do?" question...

I've been a proponent of allowing all classes that are nationally GCR'ed, to go national. (and do away with the whole Regional/National crap, replace it with ONE National race...the Runoffs, and a divisional champ series)
and limit the classes at the Runoffs to a number thats workable and agreeable with the business aspects of getting that show televised.

Lets say that number is 24...just for discussion.

Now, each year the top 24 classes go to the runoffs.

Natural selection will take place, and the market will decide which classes flourish, and which classed wither and die.

Best of all, nobody has to be the guy to shoot a class...the classes either make it or not. If they don't, there's nobody to blame but the racers who decided it wasn't worth running in.

In the end, I think this would make the leanes an and stongest class grouping, and it would make the clun stronger by putting the BEST classes, with the BEST racing on TV. And lets face it, the Runoffs is, sad to say, our one piddle chance to "show our stuff" to the nation at large. We are idiots to put anything but our best and most attractive races there.


That said, now for giggles, SOMEBODY should go to Ford, GM and Dodge, and get them to each create a body in white program for racers, selling the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger for IT-like prep levels builds, and use some form of World Challenge limiters to equalize them. (Ack...the SIR??) and then go racing in REAL pony cars that people see AND buy. THAT would be a hoot. Oh...and hire some BTCC drivers to spice it up, LOL.

shwah
12-16-2006, 01:41 PM
Thanks for pointing me to that other discussion. Ironic how similar folks are thinking. I have no problem taking the conversation over there.

fairgentleman Z
12-16-2006, 02:00 PM
That said, now for giggles, SOMEBODY should go to Ford, GM and Dodge, and get them to each create a body in white program for racers, selling the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger for IT-like prep levels builds, and use some form of World Challenge limiters to equalize them. (Ack...the SIR??) and then go racing in REAL pony cars that people see AND buy. THAT would be a hoot. Oh...and hire some BTCC drivers to spice it up, LOL.
[/b]
c'mon don't you like the quater million dollar answer to your suggestion.....
http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/1187...ng-fr500gt.html (http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/11871/2006-ford-mustang-fr500gt.html)
:rolleyes:

JoshS
12-16-2006, 02:30 PM
I like your idea, but you've left out SS. Given that the T3 of 2006 (now T4) is the slowest Touring class, you need at least 1 class below that (to pick up the SSC cars). If we don't need the 'new' T1, then 4 classes work.
[/b]
Bill, the latest Fastrack announced that instead of sliding the T classes down one to make room for a new, faster, T1, everyone stays in place and the new class will be ST ("Super Touring").

Bill Miller
12-16-2006, 02:54 PM
Bill, the latest Fastrack announced that instead of sliding the T classes down one to make room for a new, faster, T1, everyone stays in place and the new class will be ST ("Super Touring").
[/b]


:026:


I really could care less what it's called. Bottom line is that they created a new National class out of thin air.

charrbq
12-16-2006, 03:04 PM
:026:
I really could care less what it's called. Bottom line is that they created a new National class out of thin air.
[/b]
I agee totally, but it's not the first time. Shelby Can Am, Spec Renault, SSGT, current T1 cars, etc. are a few examples. Not to mention the Formula SCCA Mazdas and Sports Racers. Sometimes I think the road to a national class is paved by dollars from manufacturers.