Rain Racing Driver Education.

[StephenB]

So after I saw this movie I was wondering what others may think about some type of Rain Driving Drivers Ed. Not sure how it could be done since we can't predict rain but I think IF we could pull something off It sure would be benificial for several if not most drivers at our level let alone the profesional level in the following link. Any ideas on how we could do this? Has it been done before? I talked a little about Ice Racing on a seperate link that certainly helps but doesn't do much about teaching you a dry line Vs. Wet line. It does teach a lot about car control which most people don't experience on the track. I would love to see the different styles between the best Rally driver, Vs. the Best Road Racing Rain Driver, Vs. the best Raod Racing Dry driver. It would be interesting to see the different techniques!


Stephen

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqxdj_wetrace

[Joe Harlan]

Water truck.... It's a great idea and years ago I remember one of the clubs did a wet session in at least 4 corners.

[CaptainWho]

The February Drivers' School at Roebling seems to be rain more often than not. :D When my brother and I did it in 2004, all but about three sessions were in rain from light to "I can't see the GT1 Beretta five feet in front of me".

[Knestis]

I did that school, too - it ROCKED.

The answer is actually to do your schools and novice races at Portland and Pacific Raceways. I ran most of my first year before running a race in the dry. It was kind of shocking to discover how fast we were supposed to go around corners.

I think sprinklers would be cool but I also think there'd be a backlash from drivers - at least on the east coast - who didn't want to have anything to do with it.

K

[CaptainWho]

I did that school, too - it ROCKED.[/b]

What car were you in, Kirk? I was in the car that's my avatar, and my brother was in a white with red/orange/yellow graphics '90 Celica GTS ITS car (the one that lost its hood on the front stretch in one of the few dry sessions).

[gran racing]

I would love a rain school!

That video is crazy.

[lateapex911]

I did that school, too - it ROCKED.



I think sprinklers would be cool but I also think there'd be a backlash from drivers - at least on the east coast - who didn't want to have anything to do with it.

K [/b]

Ha! Bring it ON. I LOVE water!

But I hate paddocking and sitting in it for a weekend.

So a sprinkler system is ideal.

[JohnRW]

I'd pay EXTRA to race in the rain. Really. Even though...a lot of the time I'm driving the open cockpit 'Plastique Pig', and driving one of them in the wet is like getting sprayed with a cold garden hose right in the face...with another one jammed up your pant-leg...I still like the wet. Most racers wig out, and having the confidence that you can keep your car stuck is HUGE.

If you're going to try to 'learn' about wet car control, you need to do it in an environment where you can't hit anything solid. Why ? Because you have to 'throw the car away' a lot to get a feel for control and recovery. I don't think you can really effectively do this on a wet road course, as you'll whack walls and other hard stuff.

Wet skid pads and ice racing. That's where I learned. Still do the 'ice race' thing. Big frozen lake, nothing to hit except the 'beelers' and the docks along the shore. Summit Point has the sprinklered skid pad...lower speeds and less ability to experiment, but you'll learn the same lessons.

Intentionally throw the car away, and try to get it back. Repeat.

I'm not sure you could create a big enough, wet enough 'environment' with a water truck.

I never understand why, on a wet Friday test day or in wet practice sessions when it's known that it will dry out later, some racers just stay parked in the paddock. Go out, slide around and experiment.

[BobsAuto]

I'm not sure if Raymond and Stephen remember my Havoc videos and crash videos that I collected back when I did the shows for RST, but this video out does them all. Wet racing school is definately something that everyone could benefit from. I did my first 3 races in the rain and had the benefit of my driving instructors teaching me on an ongoing basis as to wet vs. dry lines. NHIS and the roads up in back in the parking areas would be a wonderful place to teach this. Don't know if the management would agree to it, but just think....all the parking lots as runout and twisty turning roads that are wide. What an idea!

[Knestis]

I was in the white SSC Golf, that went slower and slower, the drier it got. :)

K

[JeffYoung]

It had a cat! And all kinds of car stuff!

That car (or its son I guess) really, really got fast when it became a modern IT car. You boys were turning awesome laps at the Enduro.

[sgallimo]

Holy Crap! This doesn't go to answering the OP's question but there is a very important message for all of us on either side of the door:
<blockquote>If the conditions are such that it is impossible for a driver to control his or her vehicle, stay where the hell you are until you are convinced that all other vehicles have stopped.</blockquote>
They were extreeeemly lucky that somebody didn&#39;t get killed in that one!! There&#39;s too many times we see some goober in a helmet strolling around, closing his door, looking at his bent wheel, etc. while all of those jerks he knows couldn&#39;t drive their way out of a paper bag come hurtling towards him.

Likewise we have workers who become so focused on protecting and/or saving our sorry butts, they put themselves at the mercy of those jerks that they know weren&#39;t smart enough to become workers and were forced to become drivers.

Seriously folks, unless there is fire involved, be smart, don&#39;t trust the other guys out there to have more talent and/or luck than you, and stay where you are untill you know it&#39;s safe to move. And once you start moving, get back to the happy side of that armco ASAP.

One day I was helping a driver out of his car under a local yellow. I was feeling really bad for this guy cause he had just trashed his Porsche when it occurred to me that it would really ruin his day if I got myself killed helping him. Even though I knew it, I guess I hadn&#39;t really "known" it before then: you can seriously get yourself dead messing with this stuff. So be safe because we need all of you.

[cherokee]

I did my school years ago in March at St. Louis. It rained, sleeted, snow, freezing rain. It was pretty nasty. They (instructors) told us you want to be road racers learn to deal with it.
After that school I won the first and only rain race I was in....in fact that is the only race I ever won.
It does make you learn lessons that I will never forget.

[joeg]

Ice racing will not teach you anything more for use in wet road racing than would dirt track oval racing.

If you bring your dedicated rain tires, it will not rain.

If it does, put on your dedicated rain tires and if they are Dirt Stockers, you will have fun.

[Knestis]

It had a cat! And all kinds of car stuff!

That car (or its son I guess) really, really got fast when it became a modern IT car. You boys were turning awesome laps at the Enduro.
[/b]
It sure did. I didn&#39;t even know how to turn on the optional fog lights, it was so new. High point of that weekend was being 2nd on the timing sheet for our group, behind only a GP Acura, in the wettest session.

The car took another quantum leap forward right before the 13 Hours when we put a proper exhaust system on it, and took off the cat. That really set Conover&#39;s horsies loose and we went something like 4 seconds faster than we ever had before. Some of that was the cold high-o2 conditions but it was kind of fun to be in the ballpark.

I&#39;ve got a set of new Hoosier rains in bags, just WAITING for the next wet race. We&#39;ll disconnect the rear bar, turn the shocks to full soft and let the Seattle hippie go kick some fair-weather Southern butt. :)

K

[CaptainWho]

I was in the white SSC Golf, that went slower and slower, the drier it got. :)
[/b]

I&#39;m with ya on that. :D I had a set of Dirt Stockers for the RX-7, and though I slowed down in the rain, I went up the timing charts ... I was one of the few cars in our run group that weekend that never left the track ... I did loop it trying to exit T2, but it just instantly swapped ends ... and I was staring at my brother bearing down on me ... I went both feet in and it instantly swapped ends again ... so I shoved it in gear and kept on truckin&#39; ...

[JeffYoung]

I remember teh school reports on that one. You were hauling the big white Golf....

You guys were within one second off us I think, best time (I turned a 2:23.2, a second off my best in the Spank My Rodder). I was really impressed. At :24, you were six seconds faster than last year right? What is the ITB record? 22?

Kirk, imagine 13 HOURS in the rain. The Seattle hippie could take the overall! You&#39;d kick my ass, muddling and confused sorta lefty that I am.

Viva Pablo!

[RSTPerformance]

Ice racing will not teach you anything more for use in wet road racing than would dirt track oval racing.

If you bring your dedicated rain tires, it will not rain.

If it does, put on your dedicated rain tires and if they are Dirt Stockers, you will have fun.
[/b]

Your from Buffalo and you are saying this??? I would beg to differ, but hey, I wouldn&#39;t know... At the NARRC Runoffs I was 2 seconds faster than the entire ITB/ITS field in an ITB car with 4 year old worn dirtstockers, and a blown clutch... and no, I wasn&#39;t Pushing it, I was calm, relaxed, and just having fun. Ice racing will certainly teach you how to do those things, and most importantly how to stay calm when things "go bad" actually, what is bad to others is just the norm to an ice racer, or dirt track racer.

This has all been off topic, but in reality I don&#39;t think that we will ever see a "rain" training seminar. Ice Racing with Ice Tires is probably as close as we can get in the northeast without getting lucky and scoring a school on a rain day.

Raymond

[RSTPerformance]

opps

[Knestis]

... Kirk, imagine 13 HOURS in the rain. ...
[/b]
Dude - stop it. I&#39;m at work and you&#39;re making me all hot.

K

[JeffYoung]

The cold wet rain poured down over his driver suit, as he swung his well-muscled leg over the sill of his roaring steed. He gripped the shifter shaft with authority, and prepared to ride....

Ok, I&#39;ll stop...lol......

[lateapex911]

jeff...back to the legal breifs buddy...

sheesh!

[spnkzss]

I never understand why, on a wet Friday test day or in wet practice sessions when it&#39;s known that it will dry out later, some racers just stay parked in the paddock. Go out, slide around and experiment.
[/b]


I had to convince people to go out and qualify in the rain. They said that there was no reason to go out. The first qualifying session was dry and the second of wet (heavy). I had a blast. There was only about 10 cars out on a 2 mile course. It&#39;s also amazing to me that people will drive their street cars in the rain harder then they will drive their races cars on a track.

[JamesB]

while true, I would also say that even on 1/2 tread toyos slippery point is not that easy to drive in hard rain. So if someone through down a good time in the dry many times they will skip the wet qualifier because even if you turn the perfect wet lap it wont be any faster then a very good dry lap.

[Knestis]

... if you turn the perfect wet lap it wont be any faster then a very good dry lap.
[/b]
...and they won&#39;t have learned anything about how their car handles when coefficients of friction go way down. And they&#39;ll have passed up the chance to scrape some of the yellow stripe off of their back. :)

K

[spnkzss]

...and they won&#39;t have learned anything about how their car handles when coefficients of friction go way down. And they&#39;ll have passed up the chance to scrape some of the yellow stripe off of their back. :)

K
[/b]

Exactly. As a matter of fact, that specific session I wanted to try a set of full tread Toyos versus Dirt Stockers.

[JamesB]

Oh I agree. Though I did retire early after my 3rd or 4th spin that session and figured at that point I was getting mad and its time to hang it up before I meet mr tirewall. I did learn a lot about the wet line on slippery point.

[lateapex911]

I think guys are making risk/reward judgements in those situations. when I go out, they say I&#39;m crazy, the risk of balling the car up is just too high, and the reward ...increased wet weather performance too low, as we never think it will rain again.

Statistics show that I guess i run about one of 25 races in the wet.

So I can see both sides.

But when you have a car that pretty much can&#39;t win in the dry if the good guys show, you change your angle, and see if you can&#39;t capitalize on oppurtunuty by preparing for it. So I like to try to learn a bit on a wet track.

[joeg]

I ice raced many years, won a number of championships, but know it is not a good wet-paved track learning exercise--it is great fun, but not a valuable teaching aid.

[RSTPerformance]

I ice raced many years, won a number of championships, but know it is not a good wet-paved track learning exercise--it is great fun, but not a valuable teaching aid.
[/b]


Joe-

First, did you have snow/ice tires or tires with DOT legal studs??? If so, I to have done a lot of similar compeating and won a few championships, and I agree to a point, but it certainly had to teach you about car control. I also have raced on Menard Studded Ice Racing Tires (Completely illigal for street use), and IMO that was remarkably similar, with exception to the terain changes that you generally have on a race track. Granted it isn&#39;t exactly the same, but how else can you learn how to drive a car sideways and recover in a safe enviroment? The only other way I can think of is at a Pro-Rally or a Rally-X which yes I also think is a valuable way to teach yourself some car control, and recomend it to anyone wishing to advance thier skills.

If I am wrong, and to some I probably am... Also I am not trying to "pick a fight" but I am just wondering... and I guess this puts us back on topic... How do you think that people learn to be "good" or "great" rain racers? Over here in the Northeast we don&#39;t have that many rain races, sure a couple a year, but anything you would learn from them is probably forgotten by the next time it rains.

Raymond

PS: Kirk are you good in the rain (as compaired to other similar FWD cars)??? I am suspecting you are from what has been said... do you think that some of those skills that make you "rise above" some of the rest is a result of your years of rallying? Just wondering your opinion.

[StephenB]

I ice raced many years, won a number of championships, but know it is not a good wet-paved track learning exercise--it is great fun, but not a valuable teaching aid.
[/b]

Joeg,

Why do you think that? I have done several Ice races and learned more about car control doing that than anything I have ever done on the track with any club at any point. I may be missing something and I am certainly not trying to start an argument so please explaine. If you are reffering to lowering lap times than I agree because in Ice racing you will not learn anything about a Rain Line... except the idea that you need to "search" for traction and by taking a regular line is probably slower. (Then again studs ruin everything about slipping and sliding so maybe you are reffering to studs as well?)

PS: I still think a wet weather style school would be great at a place like LRP.

I went to a test day in the rain at LRP and learned a ton...
Went out on regular tires and ran the normal line for 1/2 session then the rain line fo rhte rest. went over 2 seconds faster!

I then went out on Dirtstockers and did the same thing. 4 seconds faster on the dry line then switched to the Rain rain and gained another 4 seconds. total net gain was 8 seconds from regular tires to dirt stockers.

NExt session went out on the Hoosier DOT rains and went a little slower than the dirt stockers... go figure! (Avg. lap was aoubt .2 seconds slower... not to much in the rain)

Stephen

[BobsAuto]

Having both raced wheel to wheel and autocrossed in the rain, I can tell you one thing. The years I spent travelling from So. MA to northern NH in ice, rain, sleet, and snow and also practicing car control in empty parking lots for such travel as a young teen, I can tell you, I wished I had ice racing experience to add to that learning of car control. Racing in the rain is, yes, an entirely new ball game when it comes to racing, but I must agree with both R & S.....track time, be in on ice, rain, or even a slushy parking lot, teaches you much. I saw what those two learned in the rain at LRP. I can attest to the fact that they used that rainy test day to learn anything and everything they could about dry lines, wet lines, and tires. I recall going out for a practice session in the 88 NARRC runoffs in my sport 2000 on slicks just to see what the car would do. It was the most valuable 5 laps I ever took in my short racing career. I learned a ton.

[joeg]

eh...real ice racing is a combinmation of dirt tracking and "rubbin" (or worse)--it is not wet asphalt racing.

I am talking Menards or screwed tires with a big pack of equal cars.

Like I said, it is a ton of fun (as is Pro Rally--did that for many years too) but not very useful as a teaching aid for road racing in the wet.