'07 MARRS IT Run Groups

[erlrich]

It's looking like for '07 the MARRS race groups will been revised and ITA will be running with ITS/ITR (in '06 we were with ITB/IT7). ITB/ITC will now be together, and IT7 will race with SRX7/SSB/SSC. It concerns me that if some well built ITR cars show up we my be facing a situation where the great majority of the ITA cars (who typically outnumber ITS cars by more than 2X), possibly even those racing for a podium spot, will be in danger of getting lapped by the front of the ITR field. I know how the MARRS ITA drivers feel about this, but was just wondering what those of you outside the region, especially those who were involved with the ITR initiative, feel about this grouping. Keep in mind that at Summit Point a lap time differential of somewhere between 5 and 6 seconds should be the point at which IT cars will be getting lapped.

On another note, it looks like (keep in mind nothing is 100% right now, as I understand it) they have also come up with a novel idea for dealing with the undersubscribed groups. For those who hadn&#39;t heard, there was a big debate about how to deal with the large disparity in group size (<10 for some groups v. almost 50 in others); the original solution was to make the MARRS races restricted, with the faster open-wheeled cars (wings-n-things) being excluded. Apparently the region&#39;s board didn&#39;t care much for that solution (along with many of the members as I understand - including yours truly), and asked the comp committee to come up with something better. So the decision has been made to add another run group (going from 9 to 10) for &#39;07, but also to go with the caveat that any group with less than 16 cars qualifying will have their races shortened to a number of laps equal to the number of qualifiers. My first reaction to that was "what a great idea", but after some thought I can&#39;t help but wonder if this won&#39;t have the effect of eventually eliminating some classes (how long are the FV drivers going to be willing to pay $200 for a 7 - 8 lap race?). Just wondering if this has been tried in any other regions, and what you guys think of the idea.

[Knestis]

Lots of groups at lots of tracks have cars getting lapped by the overall leaders. I think it&#39;s a great luxury to be able to run an entire sprint race without having to deal with out-of-class traffic, but it isn&#39;t an inalienable right.

K

[mlytle]

It&#39;s looking like for &#39;07 the MARRS race groups will been revised and ITA will be running with ITS/ITR (in &#39;06 we were with ITB/IT7). ITB/ITC will now be together, and IT7 will race with SRX7/SSB/SSC. It concerns me that if some well built ITR cars show up we my be facing a situation where the great majority of the ITA cars (who typically outnumber ITS cars by more than 2X), possibly even those racing for a podium spot, will be in danger of getting lapped by the front of the ITR field. I know how the MARRS ITA drivers feel about this, but was just wondering what those of you outside the region, especially those who were involved with the ITR initiative, feel about this grouping. Keep in mind that at Summit Point a lap time differential of somewhere between 5 and 6 seconds should be the point at which IT cars will be getting lapped.

On another note, it looks like (keep in mind nothing is 100% right now, as I understand it) they have also come up with a novel idea for dealing with the undersubscribed groups. For those who hadn&#39;t heard, there was a big debate about how to deal with the large disparity in group size (<10 for some groups v. almost 50 in others); the original solution was to make the MARRS races restricted, with the faster open-wheeled cars (wings-n-things) being excluded. Apparently the region&#39;s board didn&#39;t care much for that solution (along with many of the members as I understand - including yours truly), and asked the comp committee to come up with something better. So the decision has been made to add another run group (going from 9 to 10) for &#39;07, but also to go with the caveat that any group with less than 16 cars qualifying will have their races shortened to a number of laps equal to the number of qualifiers. My first reaction to that was "what a great idea", but after some thought I can&#39;t help but wonder if this won&#39;t have the effect of eventually eliminating some classes (how long are the FV drivers going to be willing to pay $200 for a 7 - 8 lap race?). Just wondering if this has been tried in any other regions, and what you guys think of the idea.
[/b]

run groups are set for 07 as you described. it was finalized on thursday.

its had run with ita before (2-3 years ago). i doubt the itr cars will be much faster the first year than ed york was running back then in its. if itr is running 5 sec&#39;s a lap faster, they won&#39;t lap the ita leaders.

marshall
its/itr comp committe rep

[dickita15]

Well if I understand it the ITS used to run with Big Bore so I bet they lost a lap now and then. The R cars don’t bother me much. When a guy can get by you easy it does not slow you down. It is the slow ITS cars that I find frustrating but that’s life.

[erlrich]

Well if I understand it the ITS used to run with Big Bore so I bet they lost a lap now and then. The R cars don&#39;t bother me much. When a guy can get by you easy it does not slow you down. It is the slow ITS cars that I find frustrating but that&#39;s life. [/b] Yeah, I&#39;m sure the ITS guys are thrilled to be getting out of Big Bore; I can&#39;t understand the logic in putting them there to start with - in the few opportunities I got to watch BB last year, the closing speed between the GT1s and ITS cars at the end of the front straight looked pretty damn scary.

[dj10]

run groups are set for 07 as you described. it was finalized on thursday.

its had run with ita before (2-3 years ago). i doubt the itr cars will be much faster the first year than ed york was running back then in its. if itr is running 5 sec&#39;s a lap faster, they won&#39;t lap the ita leaders.

marshall
its/itr comp committe rep [/b]

After last year, I can live with this :happy204: . You may see me more at Summit in 07.

[22timber]

I guess no grouping is ever perfect for everyone. This grouping is a lot better than the ITS / Big Bore group last year. That was scary at times. And yes, the ITS competitors routinely lost at least a lap in every race last year.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Every Region has it&#39;s issues but I would think that it would be very easy to lump ITR/ITS together until ITR gains the numbers to warrant a move. Heck, you may only see 1-2 cars at every race for the first year in ITR...I bet more but you never know.

[JeffYoung]

Exactly. I don&#39;t anticipate there being many R cars the first six months of 07 -- probably only BMW 325s -- and I would think that R/S/A is probably a great run group.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Eand I would think that R/S/A is probably a great run group. [/b]

Well THAT is track dependent...I am a firm beliver that there should be at least two classes seperating run groups. Enough speed differential but not much lapping potential. S and B, A and C. R could go with A when it gets big enough...

[erlrich]

This grouping is a lot better than the ITS / Big Bore group last year.[/b] Agreed 100%. And just for the record I have no qualms whatsoever about racing with ITS - I think it will be interesting to see the ITA frontrunners having to deal with traffic from the get go next year :D . And as you guys have pointed out the ITR thing may not even be an issue for some time. It&#39;s just that I know we had some ITS Bimmers running in the 24&#39;s or 25&#39;s a couple of years ago, and with them loosing weight (what is it, 100 lbs?) in ITR, and with a good chance there will be some even better cars once the fast guys figure it all out...I&#39;m envisioning the ITR leaders running 23&#39;s, even 22&#39;s, in a year or two. I guess we&#39;ll just have to watch and see what happens.
Edit: for reference, fast ITA cars are running in the 28&#39;s at Summit.

[JeffYoung]

Well THAT is track dependent...I am a firm beliver that there should be at least two classes seperating run groups. Enough speed differential but not much lapping potential. S and B, A and C. R could go with A when it gets big enough...
[/b]

Right now, ITS/A/7 in the SEDiv is a great run group. Yes, the fast A cars run with the midpack (and sometimes the fast) S cars. But the speed differential is not too great, which keeps everyone together and usually prevents lapped traffic from deciding anything.

I think the most dangerous run groups are the ones with significant speed differential. S and B cars running together at most tracks in the SE would result in the S cars catching the Bs as little as 1/2 through the race.

S/A/7 really works well for us down here. Adding R to the top and dropping 7 to SM/B/C seems like a good not too radical change.

[ajmr2]

I posted this note in the MARRS Yahoo Group earlier,
but I for one am disappointed that we will no longer be running with the
ITB crowd. I found myself duking it out with several ITB racers and
having a lot of fun actually RACING, and making new friends as well.
Since my MR2, a solid mid-packer in ITA, has been the subject of being moved to ITB
for years without success, I was also able to gauge the "what if"
question in the back of my head. I fear I&#39;ll be out there turning laps by myself looking for the leaders in my
mirrors this coming year. I also worry about our friends at the back of the grid. We&#39;re talking 15 seconds per lap in some cases, which means getting lapped TWICE! We&#39;ll just have to wait and see.
AJ
:dead_horse:

[mlytle]

Well THAT is track dependent...I am a firm beliver that there should be at least two classes seperating run groups. Enough speed differential but not much lapping potential. S and B, A and C. R could go with A when it gets big enough...
[/b]
i agree. it is a bit better to have a little more time diff between the classes to minimize the inter-species conflicts. downside is the slower class gets less race laps due to more lapping.

i plan on talking with the its/itr group to remind them about playing nice. the mid/back packers need to be aware of the lead ita battles happening around them. everyone is racing, but we gotta share the track.

with its in big bore last year, the gt1 cars weren&#39;t that bad. blink an eye and they were gone. the challenges to fun were the as cars. as and its cars ran the same lap times but were just too different in where they got the time from. frustrating in a big way.

[lateapex911]

Just as an example, if ITS and ITB ran Road Atlanta, the math works out to about a 20 minute race before the ITS leaders lap the ITB leaders, based on ITS turning 1:40s and ITB turning 1:48s. (over 12 laps)

[erlrich]

I do find it interesting how perspectives seem to change as you get closer to the front. Marshall, Andy, and I&#39;m sure the majority of the front-running drivers think separation between the classes is a good thing, so there is less interference between the different class leaders. AJ, I, and I&#39;m sure many of the mid-pack drivers welcome the inter-class racing; we would much rather have someone to race with, regardless of the class they&#39;re in, than be out there running laps alone. I&#39;m sure the differing mindsets have a big impact on how you view the topic of this thread.

[lateapex911]

Agreed.

More problematic is when IT is classed with SS, for example. I remember qualifying pretty well at the Glen in my lowly RX-7 once. I had a shot (ok, a longshot, LOL) at a trophy, actually. Welll, not so fast. My lap times were better, but a SS car got by me after the start down the long back straight. It took me many laps of nearly rubbing his bumper everywhere EXCEPT the straights until I could get by, and by then the leaders in my class were long gone.

He was winning SS, and had negative interest (blocking) in letting me by.

So keeping cars that have similar characteristics (as much as possible) together, but at significantly different speeds, makes sense. (ITS and ITB for example), where possible.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree too Earl - one thing I have yet to wrap my arms around is how a &#39;big&#39; track effects this. My experience is mostly limited to tracks like NHIS and LRP where you are talking 1.5 miles and 38-40 cars max. Just one look at the ITS/ITA proposed combo at the ARRC - and the immediate response - is where I am coming from.

Having said that, even though I love the ITS/ITB and ITA/ITC groupings - because I have been in ITS and ITA. I watch the top ITB guys try and race through mid-ITS guys and I know they get frustrated. Same goes for the fast ITC guys and the Mid-A guys. I just feel the power differential between 2 classes makes for better racing.

FWIW, in a track like LRP - in a 15-20 lap race - ITS is just about to lap the ITB leaders when the checkered flies...

[MMiskoe]

Having run a lot of enduros both in cars that were near the front & ones at the back, I find this kind of discussion odd. Traffic is a huge part of racing, always will be.

Bitching that traffic caused a problem for you is like blaming it on the fact that your tire pressures changed when the they warmed up. Its part of what goes on out there, another factor that you can count on happening, but have very little control over.

There are lots of clubs that offer time trial events.

[JamesB]

Its funny cuz I didnt mind being in the ITA/ITB setup. Not that I raced may A cars cuz im mid B field but if I was holding solid 1:36 or better lap times with a decent qualifing position I never got lapped, it was when I was turning way off the pace in M4 after I blew the head that I got lapped significantly by the field.

The seasoned B drivers are happy to be back with C, and C has requested a split start so they dont have to deal with us B mid pack cars and im OK with that.

As far as ITR with ITA, I dont know. I can only say wait and see what happens, if a full tilt ITR car shows up then we might get an idea, but until then I just don&#39;t know.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Having run a lot of enduros both in cars that were near the front & ones at the back, I find this kind of discussion odd. Traffic is a huge part of racing, always will be.

Bitching that traffic caused a problem for you is like blaming it on the fact that your tire pressures changed when the they warmed up. Its part of what goes on out there, another factor that you can count on happening, but have very little control over.

There are lots of clubs that offer time trial events.
[/b]

What is your definition of &#39;traffic&#39; Matt? I agree with you when you are talking about lapped traffic. Setting up run groups that provide the best racing is what this is all about.

[ggnagy]

Wasn&#39;t there a slow/fast group pairing about 3 or 4 years back?
ITS/ITB I want to say. Before that I seem to recall ITB/GTPinto

With as many classes as there are, we are allways going to have grouping problems. I do think 10
is insane.

[JoshS]

What&#39;s the big issue with one class lapping another? I don&#39;t think, except for the Runoffs, that I&#39;ve ever been in a race where the fastest class didn&#39;t lap the slowest class in the group. And I&#39;ve been both the fastest class and the slowest class.

[RSTPerformance]

Getting lapped and loosing 1 lap is NOT a good argument, although I may use it some day :snow_cool: ... Problem is that it is impossible to get all the classes to fit without some getting lapped. Unfortunatly its part of the game.

If leaders (top notch effort cars, not just 1 car classes with midpack development) are getting lapped 2 times, then I think you have issues in classing.

Split starts are a great way to help with the issue of running with cars that run equal lap times, but get the speed in different areas... Hopefully you wouldn&#39;t ever have to race with those people, and those are the ones that are the most "fustrating" shall we say. Only issue, is we/you will get lapped a lot sooner.

Raymond

[ajmr2]

Just for the sake of argument (not bitching) I take the credit and/or blame for some years ago suggesting that we run 16 instead of 15 laps. At the time ITA was running with ITS and there were some folks who thought it wasn&#39;t fair to pay for 15 laps and get lapped at 14. No big deal to me personally, but I floated the idea, which was eventually adopted. When the (heated) discussion began a few years ago about how to accomodate the influx of Miatas, one of the ideas was to add another group but sacrifice a lap in each group to save some wear and tear on the flaggers, corner workers, EMTs and other volunteers. That was not implemented, but we&#39;ve still been racing, right?
I&#39;ve been in the SCCA for a long time and I&#39;m willing to wait and see when it comes to these kinds of decisions. Frankly, we&#39;re in one of the best regions in the entire country. Furthermore, I&#39;m a strong believer that the SCCA should be able to accomodate all kinds of cars for as long as possible, and I think that has been the goal in next year&#39;s groupings. I know if it doesn&#39;t work well and we make some noise, our reps and BOD will make whatever changes are necessary, keeping in mind our regional membership as a whole. Running 10 groups is hard on all the volunteers, especially if we consider extra down time for track clean up when there are incidents. That doesn&#39;t even take into account time taken up when it&#39;s monsoon season. We need to keep their welfare in mind. My main concern is having fun as safely as possible, considering our chosen sport...

AJ
:eclipsee_steering:

[85itccivic]

Some one mentioned a fast and slow group running together at one time . ITS and ITC ran together for two seasons if I remember correctly . Fortunatly the ITS guys played nice with us lowly C cars. Mr. York was turning times ten seconds faster than the average ITC car. The flaggers did a very good job with blue flags for our group.


Roger Troxell
Marrs ITC Civic #90

[lateapex911]

Having run a lot of enduros both in cars that were near the front & ones at the back, I find this kind of discussion odd. Traffic is a huge part of racing, always will be.

Bitching that traffic caused a problem for you is like blaming it on the fact that your tire pressures changed when the they warmed up. Its part of what goes on out there, another factor that you can count on happening, but have very little control over.

There are lots of clubs that offer time trial events.

[/b]

No, having issues with cars out of your class and having to be held up by them is NOT the same as bitching about changing tire pressure. (i DO have control over my pressures, as well...)

And enduros are, obviously different than sprint races.

I agree that we can&#39;t always run all classes at full race distances, but having your race F-ed up from the first lap to the last by another guy in another class is kinda frustrating, esp when blocking is the issue. (I know, I know, go talk to the stewards...liek THAt will do any good...better planning avoids HAVING to talk to Stewards..)

ITS/ITB is OK, and even ITC would be fine, as passes would be easy...ITC cars corner as well as ITS cars, but the ITS cars can put lots of distance on an ITC car between corners. Same with ITA and ITR.

I would MUCH rather deal with that kind of traffic.

[mlytle]

What is your definition of &#39;traffic&#39; Matt? I agree with you when you are talking about lapped traffic. Setting up run groups that provide the best racing is what this is all about.
[/b]

yes, setting up the run groups is key. you don&#39;t want what we had with its/as where the top of each class had to not only battle each other, but had to battle the cars in the other class at the same time. all the while ducking when the gt1 cars blew through. it became more of an exercise in survival and frustration than good racing.




Some one mentioned a fast and slow group running together at one time . ITS and ITC ran together for two seasons if I remember correctly . Fortunatly the ITS guys played nice with us lowly C cars. Mr. York was turning times ten seconds faster than the average ITC car. The flaggers did a very good job with blue flags for our group.
Roger Troxell
Marrs ITC Civic #90
[/b]

i will toss a lot of credit to the itc drivers during that period! outstanding mirror watching by all. made it easy for us its cars to minimize negative interaction and keep out of your race!

running with a slower class like that does add an additional "game" to the race though....on the last lap needed to calculate how far ahead of the nearest competitor you were so you knew how much you could lift in order to NOT lap any itc cars near the end....:)

marshall
marrs ITS/R BMW #64

[22timber]

In 2005, ITS ran with SSM in MARRS and I thought that actually worked well. As one of the faster ITS cars, I had very few issues lapping SSM cars. In general, they watched their mirrors, and we didn&#39;t try stupid moves. Sometimes the traffic hurt me, and sometimes it helped, but that&#39;s part of racing. I do know that some of the faster Miata drivers had a problem with some of the slower ITS cars, but I believe that was simply a lack of courtesy by one or two people. Mixed groups can run well together if people are aware of what&#39;s going on around them and are willing to play nice.

[JeffYoung]

This is an interesting thread and very region specific. I would say that all or almost all of us in ITS/ITA/IT7 here in the SEDiv think it is the perfect run group at CMP (a slower technical track), Roebling (a longer flowing high speed track), VIR and RA.

[nip_mr2]

I have to agree with AJ. I enjoyed running with the B group. I also run an MR2 and they are not the fastest ITA car. They would have to be built very illegel to be a full front running car. As far as running with B, the car was near the front of their pack. Which in return gave me someone to race with. The friends I have made from the B group said they enjoyed running with A. So why take away the racing from overall postion and put it to, "well let me drive the track, not duke it out, move over for the leaders, and now there&#39;s the checker." Boy sounds like fun to me next year. I&#39;ll move my car to another class so I can race with another driver. That is why I spent the money for the driver&#39;s schools. So I can race with other competitors, and most of all to HAVE FUN. It a trophy for the winners ( NOT MONEY ) and a thank you from the spectators for putting on a good race. The spectators don&#39;t want to see 25 car with 3 to 4 lengths between them just driving around. This will be my 2nd year of driving and I was looking forward to racing with B group again. Not to worried about what is coming in my mirrors. :(

[dj10]

I have to agree with AJ. I enjoyed running with the B group. I also run an MR2 and they are not the fastest ITA car. They would have to be built very illegel to be a full front running car. As far as running with B, the car was near the front of their pack. Which in return gave me someone to race with. The friends I have made from the B group said they enjoyed running with A. So why take away the racing from overall postion and put it to, "well let me drive the track, not duke it out, move over for the leaders, and now there&#39;s the checker." Boy sounds like fun to me next year. I&#39;ll move my car to another class so I can race with another driver. That is why I spent the money for the driver&#39;s schools. So I can race with other competitors, and most of all to HAVE FUN. It a trophy for the winners ( NOT MONEY ) and a thank you from the spectators for putting on a good race. The spectators don&#39;t want to see 25 car with 3 to 4 lengths between them just driving around. This will be my 2nd year of driving and I was looking forward to racing with B group again. Not to worried about what is coming in my mirrors. :( [/b]

On the other side of the coin, racing is a high speed chess game and when I&#39;m not with the fastest group of cars I&#39;m always thinking of how I can get a edge. Meaning if you see a faster car coming, don&#39;t think of this a a pain in the ass, think of this as a possible advantage and how you might be able to use the lapping car. Might be used for a draft some where, how about a block on your opponent or making a hole for you to shoot through? And at least for me, I try and remember who might help me or who is being an asswipe and blocking me because he never looks in their mirrors. Let me just say, you stroke me and what goes around comes around. You stay alert, hold your line and let me pass you cleanly and possibly point me by and sometime you just might get some help when you least expect it. There is absolutly no reason why different classes can have a great time racing together, all it takes is a little understanding and being aware.

<strike>THINK </strike> SCHEME

[MMiskoe]

OK I was shooting my mouth off on this one I know, but come on guys - there are more people that want to race than there are hours in the day for everyone to have their own run group. Even at the runoffs they&#39;re talking about limiting the number of groups that get to race. We (Improved Touring) happen to be the 400 pound gorrilla when it comes to regional racing. We have a lot of say. Put yourself in the shoes of the FV guy who loves to race and puts up w/ running w/ whom ever he&#39;s stuck w/ simply so he can go racing against the other 6 guys in Vee&#39;s that showed up.

Traffic is part of it, always will be. You can only control it by using your head, just like anticipating tire pressure changes, but sometimes you will get it wrong & your race won&#39;t be so good. If that car isn&#39;t faster than you, how did it get in front of you? If you are really going to pull away from it, passing it should be easy.

Lots of traffic - 54 cars on a 2 mile track (waiver to run that many). Lap time differential across the field - 12 seconds a lap. If you get in the car as a second or third stint driver, you will rarely go a lap w/o being involved in a pass or getting set up on one.

First race I ever ran was ITS/ITE/AS. Rain for the qualifier, dry & sunny for the race which made for an inverted grid. It never seemed to be a problem.

[erlrich]

Boy sounds like fun to me next year.[/b] Doug, I wouldn&#39;t write off next season just yet. Yes, it was a blast racing with the ITB/IT7 guys last year, but I also think we had a pretty close group of ITA cars running back from around 5th place on. In fact, I seem to recall one race where there were like 8 - 10 cars that qualified within a second or so of each other (but I can&#39;t remember if that was just A cars?). Still, I think if we can get everyone back with healthy rides next season we should still be able to find some decent racing. Maybe not quite as awesome as last year, but still pretty good. And from what I think I&#39;m hearing from a lot of the guys outside our region, we should probably count ourselves fortunate to have been able to race with such a great group.

Actually, I&#39;m also wondering why they needed to move IT7 out of our group at all, even with ITS/ITR coming in... ITS typically puts 8 - 12 cars on track, ITA usually has maybe 20 or so, and IT7 never had more than about a half dozen; that&#39;s less than 40 cars for those groups. Does anyone really expect to see 10 ITR cars at any event in its first year? Maybe Gregg will chime in and help out with this.

[mlytle]

Actually, I&#39;m also wondering why they needed to move IT7 out of our group at all, even with ITS/ITR coming in... ITS typically puts 8 - 12 cars on track, ITA usually has maybe 20 or so, and IT7 never had more than about a half dozen; that&#39;s less than 40 cars for those groups. Does anyone really expect to see 10 ITR cars at any event in its first year? Maybe Greg will chime in and help out with this.
[/b]
it is a numbers game. we wanted to get all the run groups down to low 30&#39;s. ita+its+itr= low 30&#39;s. IT7+srx7+ssc/b=low 30&#39;s
there are actually over 30 its cars in the region. lots of them stayed home last season for a variety of reasons. i expect bigger its fields again next year. it wasn&#39;t long ago that there were 25 car its fields. yes, i agree itr fields may be light next year, which is one of the reasons to put them in with ita/its.

plus, gotta keep all them dang mazda&#39;s in run groups by themselves so they won&#39;t hurt anyone else....;)

j/k...i drive an srx7 sometimes....

[Gregg]

OK...I&#39;ll chime in briefly (and Doug will get a more lengthy private reply to the email he sent me). The goal was to get each closed wheel group to within 33-37 cars. Last year ITA averaged approx. 20 cars, ITS about 10, and we expect 3-5 ITR cars this year. That puts this run group into that sweet spot.

IT-7 averaged about seven and I have been alerted to at least three cars on the way. That would be 30 if ITA continued to run w/ IT-7. You could then give us ITR to put us into that sweet spot, but then where does ITS go? With SRX7/SS? That puts them over the sweet spot and creates more performance inequities than in the proposed groupings.

I understand that Doug and others don&#39;t like the idea of splitting ITA and IT-7. The fact of the matter is that these are two separate and distinct classes. It was requested that IT-7 run w/ ITA for its maiden season but other than nostalgia there is really no other precedence for keeping them together ad infinitum. As I told one of IT-7&#39;s main proponents at least year&#39;s banquet, I had hoped that we held off a year before started up the class. It was my hope that the changes in min. weights and other steps taken by the ITAC to create more competition in ITA would remove the need for the class. In fact, I&#39;m willing to bet that after 2007 you&#39;ll see that the front-running IT-7 cars are running similar lap times to the front-running ITA cars. We got close at the end of the season as some of the rust was removed. As I mentioned in an update to the ITA & IT7 drivers a few weeks ago, we would have a lot more "pull" if we had a class of 30+ cars. Now that we&#39;re 20 and 7, we don&#39;t have and influence.

And although I have enjoyed actually seeing the green flag fly at Summit the past two seasons, I actually enjoyed running with ITS my first season two seasons. They&#39;re a great, accomodating bunch with lots of on-track experience and excellent race-craft. I never saw an issue where they inserted themselves in our races or we in theirs. As was mentioned to the ITA/IT-7 drivers, there was a problem with our drivers inserting themselves into the ITB leaders&#39; race at the last &#39;06 MARRS event, in as much as those drivers searched me out post-race. Although it is nice to have cars around you on track, even if they&#39;re not in the same class, you must remember that you are racing the cars in your class.

It&#39;s OK to fear change and I give a lot of credence to the opinions of all of the ITA/IT-7 drivers. When someone like AJ has raced in this grouping previously and he&#39;s worried it does give me pause, but the WDCR competition committee was faced with coming up with groupings that did not disenfranchise entire classes--forcing those drivers to stay home, making sure that we had less on-track density to allow for growth in all classes (esp. new ones like IT-7 and ITR), ensuring as much safety as is possible for an inherently dangerous sport, and bettering what has been a poor situation for the majority of the 275-300 drivers we average at each MARRS event.

[ajmr2]

So, Greg. are you saying I&#39;m old or experienced? Perhaps vintage. Just to be clear, I wasn&#39;t picking on ITS, I was just expressing my concerns about the speed differential between the slower cars in ITA and the front runners in ITS and the unknown ITR factor. I personally never had a problem getting lapped by any ITS driver (as opposed to a certain ITA car in turn 3 who will remain nameless). Like I said, let&#39;s wait and see.
BTW, this is a great forum for these discussions. We should all buy a T shirt or make a donation to help keep it going. :114:
AJ

[lateapex911]

And Greg, if IT7 drivers are upset about being moved away from ITA, can&#39;t they just run ITA instead? They must fit ITA if they fit IT-7, right?

[Gregg]

And Greg, if IT7 drivers are upset about being moved away from ITA, can&#39;t they just run ITA instead? They must fit ITA if they fit IT-7, right?
[/b]
Actually, most of the bellyaching I&#39;ve heard about the split is from the ITA drivers, not the IT7 folks. We have no region-specific rules for IT7....they are simply ITA RX7&#39;s w/ different class markings. If these drivers now wanted to race twice per weekend, the scheduling would probably work for them (hint...hint).

Frankly, I&#39;d love to see IT7 eliminated in the MARRS series, but there are too many people that worked too hard to bring it about, even if the ITAC cleaned up some of the inequities just as we were putting the class in place. I&#39;d love to see the 30-car average ITA fields that we had just three years ago, but some of the reasons why the RX7 drivers wanted a separate class have not been fulfilled yet and the new class has done three things: Bring drivers out of retirement
Bring cars out of mothballs
Bring new cars and drivers to the region
And those a very good things!

[lateapex911]

yes, the total number of drives is up, and you can attribute some of it to IT7, then yes...a VERY good thing it is!

(As an aside, we on the ITAC went with the 100 pound break, but we also know that it&#39;s weird with RX-7s..not many will be able to hit it.)

[mlytle]

So, Greg. are you saying I&#39;m old or experienced? Perhaps vintage. Just to be clear, I wasn&#39;t picking on ITS, I was just expressing my concerns about the speed differential between the slower cars in ITA and the front runners in ITS and the unknown ITR factor. I personally never had a problem getting lapped by any ITS driver (as opposed to a certain ITA car in turn 3 who will remain nameless). Like I said, let&#39;s wait and see.
BTW, this is a great forum for these discussions. We should all buy a T shirt or make a donation to help keep it going. :114:
AJ
[/b]

i love first gen mr2&#39;s...put about 175k fun miles on my street one. maybe we should do some paddock bumper height checking so that if you want a push you can flash me the international bump drafting hand signal. just watch for the blue nosed bmw coming up in your rear view mirror at turn 10.....happy to help! ;)

(KIDDING! i know inter-species bump drafting is bad....)

marshall

[nip_mr2]

I not say that this up coming season might not be fun. But looking at the results from this past season I was running with more ITB cars than ITA. I know there where a couple of A car near me at the finish, but it is hard to see how close they are while you are on the track and concentrating on what you are doing. I just found myself in the thick of more with B&#39;s than A&#39;s. Maybe this season while be differant. We will have to find out.
I understand about drafting and using the advantages of other cars on the track. I was in big bore for the driver&#39;s schools at Summit. ITA was the slowest race group. So where the faster cars would dive under slower one in the corner, I would throw the hook onto there bumper and get pulled through. I was fun.
I just want to have good close racing. Everyone being smart with giving and taking. Last year was my first and I feel I&#39;m still gaining respect and trust from my fellow competitor on the track. I know the ones I trust to race beside, and I hope they trust me. Each year is going to be a learning experience for me and the curve is very steep. The vets on the track and off are great guys and gals. I learned a lot last year and felt comfortable. Now it&#39;s going to be another year of learning and I&#39;m okay with that. I just wasn&#39;t expecting a knuck ball like this for maybe another season or two.
I&#39;m done bitchin&#39;. I&#39;ll try to think possitve for the up and coming season.

Thank you

[Chris Humphrey]

Just to add my .02

With my car prep and skill level (or lack of) I will be running with the front runing spec7&#39;s. So I will go from being mid pack at best in ITA to racing with the front runners in spec7 this will be alot of fun for me "I think" and if not I will run in ITA. Plus the bonus of being able to run in two classes.

I think its a win win deal for IT7. :eclipsee_steering:

[ajmr2]

Hey, Marshall, the more likely scenario is my trying to get out of your way in the carousel when somone is sniffing to get by you. I&#39;ll NEVER hold up the front runners!

Hey Doug! Just imagine the start without all those B cars between us. Get the picture? :eclipsee_steering:
AJ

[SRX7#27]

Just to add my .02

I will be running with the front runing spec7&#39;s. So I will go from being mid pack at best in ITA to racing with the front runners in spec7 this will be alot of fun for me "I think"

I think its a win win deal for IT7. :eclipsee_steering:
[/b]

Should be fun, I like the idea of having all of the first gens in one run group.. At least the interclass bump drafting should work a little better than with ITC.. Now we just have to get the SSC&#39;s out of our group and we&#39;re good.. -Al G.

[mgyip]

I&#39;m heavily "on the fence" about this one - initially I was concerned about the ITA/ITS/ITR combiniation and while I&#39;m not ecstatic about being the slow kid on the block, I am glad to get away from the DC Region&#39;s ITBash crowd. I&#39;ve encountered more aggressive ITB drivers and have been hit by more ITB cars in the past 2 seasons than I encountered in the first 5 years of racing so I&#39;m not completely distraught to see the classing change.

Racing is certainly about passing (and unfortunately being passed) but as has been mentioned, the intent of the groupings is to keep speed conflicts at a minimum. Being a solid mid-pack driver, I found myself in the midst of the ITB leaders more than once which isn&#39;t a nice place to be. Furthermore, I found myself squarely in the middle of their battle with no easy way to extricate myself since I was neither appreciably faster or slower than the ITB leaders.

Perhaps the solution will be to offer a split start with ITA starting first and ITS/ITR starting arbitrarily 30 seconds later. The only issue is that this can be a starter&#39;s nightmare should the second pack be poorly formed since they cannot be given a wave-off. Perhaps the stringent use of start judges with PENALTIES will curb any problems.

Just some thoughts from the fencepost.

Matthew

[BillH]

I think this grouping should work out pretty well for us in ITA. Most of the ITR/ITS cars will grid in front of us and take off, leaving us to have fun in our own race. That will be a lot easier than trying to get loose from the ITB leaders (Bill Radford are you reading thisw? :-)). I raced with ITS several times two years ago when SSM was paired with them. They took off and left the Miatas alone. Toward the end of the race the leaders (Ed and Al usually) would lap me. It was not really a problem. The DC region blue flaggers always warned me when they were coming so I just let them by. There were a few slow ITS cars, but passing them was fun. I am looking forward to the season. Bill H