Proper line in oval parts of roval

[jjjanos]

While watching a World Challenge event at a roval, the "color man" said that the proper line through the banked turns of a roval isn't to take the classic road racing apex line, but instead you want to hold your position relative to the edges of the track through the turn.

I've been reading some of the "hot lap" guides for some rovals. These seem to indicate that one does drop down in the banked turns of the roval.

So which is it? Does it depend on the car? I drive an ITC Honda and my thinking is that there is no way I'm going to be carrying enough speed in a 22 degree banked turn to have a need to make a wide arc of the turn. I'll be so far inside the envelope of the handling that the only thing a classic line does is increase the distance need to drive.

Discuss.....

[Knestis]

There's no one answer (he says looking at theory, rather than any experience on rovals)...

If you are flat out and the car isn't scrubbing speed, then make the shortest trip you can, right around the inside - that would be my inclination with a low-HP car, but the watch will tell you. Dale Jr. uses the high line on a lot of the ovals that Cup runs, and carries more speed out of the corners because the car is more "freed up." You do so see a classic roadracing line from some folks on ovals, too...

K

[gprodracer]

In lower hp cars like ours, the quickest way around the track is the shortest, hence the lowest groove. This has been proven over many years with the stopwatch. If you come into the banked turn on the (relatively) flat part, you can gain time by staying high initially, then swinging "down the hill" of the banking to the lowest groove. You also want to try and use whatever draft you can (safely) get from any cars that are passing you by tucking up under them as they go by. In a ITC car, a 2 second draft from a quick ITB car can give you up to 2 tenths a lap. Being in the South, we run Charlotte, Daytona, and Rockingham.
Hope this helps,
Mark

[jjjanos]

Most helpful. Thank you!

[Bildon]

I asked my pal Butch Leitzinger this exact question on day at Pheonix. We were all there for an IMSA race but Butch had been doing some Busch stuff so I said do you "apex" ? He said "no, hold it right on the painted line."

Of course now that I think about it... I haven't been heading that advice at Pocono very well.

[StephenB]

At Pocono I gained time by letting the car run straight up the exit and kinda slingshot out of the corner.

Stephen

[lateapex911]

I think it varies actually. Different setups, and different corners will yeild different results.

As a general rule, I think that the steeper the banking, the more of a non apexing arc you want to follow.

And some cars really get bogged and like to run free, which means more speed carried down the straight.

Other cars can go flat out anywhere in the corner, so the shortest line would be the fastest there, unless they scrub speed going too tight.

[gsbaker]

One of the racing schools we work with is Finishline Racing in Edgewater Florida. Mike Loescher is the head honcho and is considered to be one of the best asphalt oval instructors around, if not the best. We're talking private coaching, etc.

Mike is very big on smoth. He complains that Road Racers he teaches brake too late and apex too late for an oval. "The suspension has to be stable to keep the contact patch from jumping around." He likes to divide the corner into thirds, entering fairly early by RR standards, letting the car roll through the center section while on the bottom (almost coasting), and slowly applying throttle on the exit while slowly unwinding the wheel.

This is an art form for circle trackers, who only race the same corner all day. It's interesting to watch.

[lateapex911]

Right...but remember, circle track cars are set up to turn naturally in a certain arc. A roadcourse setup at a roval is a compromise, I would imagine that the car and it's setup might have a bearing on the best line.

[gprodracer]

You guys must be driving higher horsepower cars, and the circle track guys have way more power than we do. For us low horsepower guys, there is no lifting in the corners, ever, in any of the rovals that I have driven. It is flat to the mat all the way around, in the bottom groove, for the best lap times.
Gregg, I agree, it is an art form for the circle track guys to roll on and off the throttle, coasting thru the center until they can floor it off the corner and down to the next, but even in my Prod car, I've never had to even think about lifting.

Mark

[Andy Bettencourt]

This is a very interesting discussion - one which I plan to prove and disprove some of these theories with Data Acq. Our roval, NHIS, is only a 1 mile oval so the NASCAR turns are relatively tight. ITS cars and ITA cars have to at least lift at corner entry. ITB and ITC cars I am sure can run flat.

I need to find the right compromise because while my Miata can run anywhere I want it to, it is a low HP car so I can't accelerate through the corner. Flat to the floor in 4th gear yeilds no acceleration until the wheel gets unwound a decent amount. So I would love to dive in and run the low line and less distance. A consideration for the line is obviously what is AFTER the corner - and it's a short chute to a 2nd gear uphill corner - but it's also the best passing zone on the track.

Truthfully, there is probably a qualifying line and a racing line at this track.

[charrbq]

I've run my ITC Honda at Texas World Speedway, Texas Motor Speedway, and Daytona International Speedway...each with a significant protion of the track run on the oval. In everycase, it's run the bottom even to the point of running the apron if allowable. The only variance I've run or seen run in low powered cars like ours is in passing, exit from the infield road course, or entrance into the infield road course. In some of those cases, the entrance to the infield might need you to drive up to a high line or the exit (as at Daytona), might allow for you to drive up the oval in order to not scrub speed and to use the banking to build up speed.

I never get higher that a lane or two from the apron. You can run up high like the big boys, but unless you're putting out enough horsepower to spin the tires on the restart, like they do, you're waisting your time. I'll wave at you when I go by on the bottom. :P

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think my point Chris is that not all Rovals are created equal. Some you can't flat foot at corner entry and the arc is such that you maintain speed in teh middle and may scrub speed on the bottom.

[jhooten]

My car weighs 2850 at the end of th esession and makes about 200 hp. At Texas motor speedway I get my fastest lap times about one car width above the white line. And it is pedal on the floor from the exit of the infield to the start/ finish line.

[charrbq]

I think my point Chris is that not all Rovals are created equal. Some you can't flat foot at corner entry and the arc is such that you maintain speed in teh middle and may scrub speed on the bottom.
[/b]
I kinda thought that was what I said, but not in such a sophisticated manner. Three different tracks with three different lines concerning entrance and exit to the road course, but the oval in a low horsepowered car is best driven as close to the bottom as possible to save time and distance.

[944-spec#94]

A oval part of a roval is just like any other corner. However they tend to be very long, high speed, banked corners.

I run Phoenix as my home track and there for me the turns 3-4 of NASCAR track are flatout. Not stupid easy flatout, but not real hard once you get comfortable. I figure the cars is maybe 95% at is cornering limit so you still need to drive it keep it there.

In this case I use and tech to all my DE students to used low mid groove. This is about 1 car width from the inside yellow line. The cars (nearly all of them I have seen) run best there. Go low and the corner gets tight, go high and there is alot of crap up there. You can enter this section from either the middle of the track or from the outside and sort of swing in, but it does not impact me as I am flat out anyway. Most of time I sort of swing in from the high side a bit since their prior turn puts me there as I get on oval part. Corner exit is gently unwind to "free the car" for me or apply power for higher hp/lower grip cars.


The other roval I run is Cal Speedway. This section we used turn 1-2 of NASCAR config and we get farily strong run to the turns. The final road course turn puts us on the oval about mid track heading for start/finish. At start finish I am flat out at 110 or so maybe 2-3 car withs from the inside as I set-up for the banked turns. I also hold a constant distance to the insided line maybe 2 width's away. I need be high enough to use the banking to help, but don't need to run too high. This is easy flat out (maybe 75% limit), but is a bit spooky drafting another car at 132 mph. Corner exit is swing out not to gain speed, but to set-up for the tight left that comes short after getting on the back straight.

So technique varies, but you need to figure it out just like and other high speed turns. Willow Springs for example has two corners similar to oval corners. One is turn 8-9 of which 8 is flat out in 5th for most cars with little banking in to a decreasing radius 9. Similar to rovals it is very fast and very long. The other is turn 2 which is fast 200 degree turn that is slightly banked. This corner you don't really apex like most sincei it is so long and fast at 80-90 mph. Entry and exit are driven by the prior and following corners so you just huge it close and give her all she's got.