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Andy Bettencourt
12-05-2006, 11:24 AM
There are people trying to get a very high-profile IT-centric event together Aug 10-12 at Mid-Ohio. This would be a coplimentary event to the ARRC, very much like the June Sprints / Runoffs.

Ideas on what would make it a great event and draw you to it are appreciated.

Understand nothing is written in stone and this is very much in the planning stages but every little bit helps!

zracre
12-05-2006, 11:27 AM
Make it more of an IT festival and less of a Miata festival (sorry Andy)...Kevin, what regional only classes do well over there? Maybe a few different regional classes but put emphasis on IT...great idea with the PDX on friday but a test day anytime? thursday? tow funds for out of area people and cool trophies/contingencies. The ARRC has always been the premier IT race and will continue...Due to hard work from the region and people. I like the Idea of an "August sprints" type thing

RSTPerformance
12-05-2006, 11:55 AM
I think i missed some of the discussion on the other thread, so I am sorry if I am asking a question that has already been adressed...

Is this "IT Festival" a restricted regional, or a normal regional race with the IT community getting some publicity into the IT classes, basically making it a well subscrbed normal "regional" IT race?

If so I would be worried that this may upset members running in the other classes simply because the region is putting more effort/time into specific races when "all" the races are just as important that weekend to those compeating in the other classes. Basically the battle you have to deal with is drawing drivers from further distances. To do this you will need to balance the IT races with the other races and still have some sort of special feature making this something different than a normal weekend.

I fully support and would love to attend if I had the $ at the time, just wanted to put in my thoughts;

Raymond

dj10
12-05-2006, 12:59 PM
There are people trying to get a very high-profile IT-centric event together Aug 10-12 at Mid-Ohio. This would be a coplimentary event to the ARRC, very much like the June Sprints / Runoffs.

Ideas on what would make it a great event and draw you to it are appreciated.

Understand nothing is written in stone and this is very much in the planning stages but every little bit helps!

[/b]



Someone better mention teardowns to keep cheaters away! AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, AND SO DO WE!

Wow the whole thread was deleted!? Oh well, *&it happens. :D

Racerlinn
12-05-2006, 01:01 PM
To bring a few things over from the other thread (I hope I am not mis-stating anything that Todd C. has said so far):
The weekend currently in question is a normal GLDIV Double Regional weekend. It is not a restricted Regional. It will be run as a standard GLDIV Double.
The idea is that the IT classes will try to be acknowledged in some special way.
The date and the track will not change unless M-O makes a drastic change - this is not unheard of, but I think at this point things are pretty well set.
I would not expect a tow fund (my opinion).

charrbq
12-05-2006, 02:30 PM
If it's to be a true IT Festival, then that should be the only things running during the weekend. That would eliminate thunder wagons, fast plastic, winged things, or pickups. Does the region think they can afford to limit themselves to five classes of racing for two days and make money? It would be tough, but it sure would be nice. The weekend could have qualifying, heat races, feature races, short enduros, etc., but no standing starts.

greendot
12-05-2006, 03:29 PM
Yes, what he said ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

R2 Racing
12-05-2006, 03:31 PM
Kevin, what regional only classes do well over there?[/b]
ITS, ITA, ITB, & ITC are all pretty strong. We also get a lot of TCC/ITE cars up here too. Plus a pretty decent number of "Club" Formula cars and IT-7 cars.


That's too bad that the original thread got deleted. There was a lot of good discussion in there. :(

Greg Amy
12-05-2006, 03:45 PM
Does the region think they can afford to limit themselves to five classes of racing for two days and make money?[/b]

Add in a PDX group, if necessary, to fill up the paddock and I'd pay extra money for the entry. In a heartbeat...

greendot
12-05-2006, 05:02 PM
It's hard to forecast but ITR might have a decent field also.

Trying to remember some things from the original thread:

Club or pro course or combination.

Standing start.

Enduro or longer race.

Awards presentation.

????????

gran racing
12-05-2006, 05:03 PM
That's too bad that the original thread got deleted. There was a lot of good discussion in there.[/b]

Maybe some of the posts could have been deleted, but all? :( Oh well.

tdw6974
12-05-2006, 05:06 PM
If it's to be a true IT Festival, then that should be the only things running during the weekend. That would eliminate thunder wagons, fast plastic, winged things, or pickups. Does the region think they can afford to limit themselves to five classes of racing for two days and make money? It would be tough, but it sure would be nice. The weekend could have qualifying, heat races, feature races, short enduros, etc., but no standing starts.
[/b]
Also to consider That weekend a regional at Beaver run, Summit Point, and Bud at the Glen(or whatever the current sponsor is) dilution of worker pool and of entrants running a particular series? :eclipsee_steering:

TAC
12-05-2006, 05:21 PM
I like the August Sprints idea but I doubt that will be the name we choose in the end. The reason we are exploring the idea is that the need seems to be out there for another date for I.T. to run head to head. It is unfortunate that we got knocked off our regular July 4th weekend but thats the way things go at the Pro tracks.

The ARRC will always be the end of the season championship and we do not want to take anything away from that. We are just looking for a way to compliment it. Dave Burchfield gets the credit for the idea and we hope with your help in this forum to build on the idea. We are trying to keep it simple this year to try and get this baby off the ground. Gotta crawl before we walk! Maybe two years from now we will be running!

Thanks for the constructive comments,

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chairman

tdw6974
12-05-2006, 05:25 PM
Also to consider That weekend a regional at Beaver run, Summit Point, and Bud at the Glen(or whatever the current sponsor is) dilution of worker pool and of entrants running a particular series? :eclipsee_steering:
[/b]
Just looked at NNJR and they have a Regional At Limerock August 10-11.

RSTPerformance
12-05-2006, 05:39 PM
I know this wont happen this year, but while you are taking suggestions/comments. I don't think that an "IT" only race weekend will support the costs of renting Mid-Ohio, but I could be wrong as I have no idea what the rental rates are. I do however like the way that the ARRC does it... Restricted regional for "Regional Only" classes. Don't get me wrong I would LOVE to see a "IT" only race weekend with all the thunder going to the IT folks, but for now I don't see it as possiblity, at least in the begining especially without SSM ;) .

Raymond

dj10
12-05-2006, 06:43 PM
Also to consider That weekend a regional at Beaver run, Summit Point, and Bud at the Glen(or whatever the current sponsor is) dilution of worker pool and of entrants running a particular series? :eclipsee_steering: [/b]

Again, once the word gets back to these regions holding the other events. They might want to switch their dates around. This could shape up into one kick ass weekend. Hell I'm looking forward to the ITA race already myself :biggrinsanta: I wished I had a ITA car, I love to be in that race too! :eclipsee_steering:

Bill Miller
12-05-2006, 07:25 PM
Again, once the word gets back to these regions holding the other events. They might want to switch their dates around. This could shape up into one kick ass weekend. Hell I'm looking forward to the ITA race already myself :biggrinsanta: I wished I had a ITA car, I love to be in that race too! :eclipsee_steering:
[/b]


IT's not quite that easy dj. Most tracks are booked up for the season, on the weekends. A Region doesn't have the luxury of just picking a new date for a race weekend. And not for nothing, but asking 3 or 4 Regions to move/cancel one of their race weekends for another Region's event is asking a bit much. Especially when those races are part of series like MARRS and NARRC.

dj10
12-05-2006, 07:43 PM
IT's not quite that easy dj. Most tracks are booked up for the season, on the weekends. A Region doesn't have the luxury of just picking a new date for a race weekend. And not for nothing, but asking 3 or 4 Regions to move/cancel one of their race weekends for another Region's event is asking a bit much. Especially when those races are part of series like MARRS and NARRC. [/b]



I'm sure it won't be but there is 9 months to plan this out.

greendot
12-05-2006, 07:53 PM
Gotta love an optimist :D

tdw6974
12-05-2006, 08:28 PM
[quote]
Again, once the word gets back to these regions holding the other events. They might want to switch their dates around. Glen region has already recieved dates and contracts for 2007 Dates. Not much flexibility because of the track being used by other groups etc. We are back to October for the drivers school, regional and enduro. TW

dj10
12-05-2006, 09:09 PM
That a possibility too. :~)

RussJones
12-05-2006, 09:10 PM
IT festival is a great idea and ive been hoping something of this level was/is planned for IT. Our racing (IT) is more popular than most National classes yet we are saddled with the stigma of being "regional" which means to most 2nd class players. We need a country-wide event.

Some thoughts: a full practice day, a full day 2-3 qualifer, and multiple sprint races--best out of three. You race and your time/place grids you for next race and so on. IF the venue takes off we rotate tracks each year.

Thanks to the people who started the process, any help needed please get in touch with me.

Russ Jones

imported_Webmaster
12-05-2006, 10:19 PM
>> Maybe some of the posts could have been deleted, but all? Oh well.

Dave, it was a mistake. Not censorship. :(
I've been running this site since Nov of 1999, and thats the first time I've ever screwed up that bad.

Hey at least I didnt delete the entire General Discussion group! Where else would we learn so much about insurance :biggrinsanta:

RSTPerformance
12-06-2006, 12:34 AM
I doubt that other regions will change thier dates with concerns that this race will draw away IT racers.

1) IT isn't the regions only concern

2) Realisticaly you will only get 5-6 people the 1st year and Maybe 10-15 IF you are lucky. That is a relatively low # of people considering most races these days draw 200+ cars.

3) A NARRC Championship (and I am sure other championships) is worth more to many (including myself) than a single race, be it the ARRC or an IT Festival. - Yes this is just my opinion, but if I was giong to run the NARRC series I wouldn't skip the NARRC event for this event. I am guessing the same is true for most of the MARRS people also.

Basicaly in 2008 I would suggest scheduling the "IT Festival" around the other regions normaly scheduled events, don't expect the "other" regions whom you want racers from to cater to you. I know this can't be changed (or can it?) for 2007, but I thought that it needed to be made realistic for those that felt other regions should change their schedules so that 5 or 6 people from that region didn't have a conflict.

Raymond

RacerBill
12-06-2006, 06:55 AM
In defense of the date, from what I understand, Mid-Ohio changed the date of Cincy's regional in favor of a Pro event. Cincy Region wanted to step up to the IT Festival idea, and since this was Cincy's only event, the die was cast.

Anyway, I will be at both the PDX and the double regional.

Suggestions:

1) standing starts were dropped for a reason and the start/finish straight is so short.... Please, no standing starts.

2) how about a handicap race for all IT cars, similar to what Indy Region has done.

3) I like the idea of tying the PDX into the regional, and get the PDX people to stay for the weekend. Don't know what the incentive might be, pay their admission? pay something towards lodging?

4) If at all possible, groups with IT classes only.

Whatever, I will be there to support. I understand the concern of drivers who are going for series championships, but would love to meet all of you at MO.

TAC
12-06-2006, 08:08 AM
Yes it is true that we got bumped from our original date. And we are looking hard to bring something special to the table. Even with being on the 4th of July our out- of-region driver totals have been small the last couple of years. Some of that is gas and some of that is loss of the Big Show......
To pull this off this year we are looking at heavy support from GLD drivers a good out-of-town crowd and BIG increases in seat time to bring folks in. Hope the gearbox's and throttles will be able to handle the stress load.


Todd C.
Cincy Race Chair

gran racing
12-06-2006, 08:21 AM
Dave, it was a mistake. Not censorship. [/b]

I was blaming it on Andy. :D Thanks for the explaination, that makes much more sense!


I doubt it would be possible to make it an IT Only weekend, but there are many ways of showing that the event is an IT Festival. Simple things as giving the premier paddock space to IT, in one general area. Give IT cars the most attractive run group times.

If standing starts are the way things are going (would rather not), Bookler flags are an absolute must!

R2 Racing
12-06-2006, 08:36 AM
No standing starts. Done. I am perfectly ok with running the club course on Saturday and the pro course on Sunday though.


It is MUCH more likely and easier to move this weekend to another (hopefully earlier) weekend in the next year or two than to ask a bunch of other races to change theirs. Personally, I'd actually rather move this one into a June or July date if at all possible. It would get it further away from the ARRC, let people know where they stand with still enough time to develop further before the ARRC, and not interfere much with regional championships that will be in full swing come August. But like I said in "threadv1.0", This is what we have for the this year and we have to make the best of it. I won't blame someone for not coming because they're in the middle of a hotly contested regional championship at the time and would have to miss a race. But in the grand scheme of things, I think that will be a small percentage of the "customer demographic" for an event like this.

I know many of you have asked for a full test day like what Road Atlanata puts on the day before the ARRC, but I just don't see that happening at Mid Ohio. But I'm sure Mid Ohio would love to sign you up for one of their $700+ "Competition Lapping Day" schools. :rolleyes: Really the PDX is about all we're going to get (for now, remember, 1st year!)

RacerBill
12-06-2006, 09:24 AM
Just thought of something else. How about a IT triple crown champion - IT fest, division championship and ARRC?

Oh, and yes, I second the motion for Club course Sat and Pro course Sun.

Andy Bettencourt
12-06-2006, 09:26 AM
I think the key is that as this event grows (should the host region stay dedicated to the idea), the host region keep in in a set weekend every year. This way other regions could build their schedules around it so they DON'T lose racers to it...

JeffYoung
12-06-2006, 10:31 AM
This is a great idea and may get me to Mid-Ohio.

Western division guys -- any chance you can do something similar at one of your tracks?

Having three unofficial championships in parts of the country accessible to all IT guys is a great idea. I agre that having the ARRC in Atlanta year after year is not fair to the guys in the Midwest and Pac Coast.

gran racing
12-06-2006, 10:50 AM
If it were a normal regional, club course and pro course would be cool. If it's going to be marketed like being discussed here, only use one version of the course. It will be hard enough for people who have never seen the course to learn one, no less another version. Or if the need is felt to run both versions, there absolutely needs to be plenty of practice offered using both versions.

Choose one course and stick with it for this event.

tnord
12-06-2006, 11:14 AM
I think the key is that as this event grows (should the host region stay dedicated to the idea), the host region keep in in a set weekend every year. This way other regions could build their schedules around it so they DON'T lose racers to it...
[/b]

:023:

ala June Sprints.

greendot
12-06-2006, 11:30 AM
My thoughts regarding which course. One of the things I liked about the ARRC in years past was that they used the chicane (turn 8) ONLY for the ARRC, which slightly reduced the local advantage. So, I'd say use the pro course if you choose just one for the same reason.

Andy Bettencourt
12-06-2006, 01:12 PM
My thoughts regarding which course. One of the things I liked about the ARRC in years past was that they used the chicane (turn 8) ONLY for the ARRC, which slightly reduced the local advantage. So, I'd say use the pro course if you choose just one for the same reason. [/b]

Correct me if I am wrong but the only difference between teh Club and Pro is the Club has the chicane. Going with the Pro reduces the technical aspect of the course, no? Stick with the Club and run it both days.

Dave Burchfield
12-06-2006, 01:39 PM
AND......the club course is longer in distance than the pro course which has an impact on the number of cars that can be started in an event.

greendot
12-06-2006, 01:43 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but the only difference between teh Club and Pro is the Club has the chicane. Going with the Pro reduces the technical aspect of the course, no? Stick with the Club and run it both days.
[/b]

You are correct on both counts. My perspective is that to even the playing field a little for the home track folks vs the never been there before folks, the pro course at least makes the home track folks adapt to something they are not used to.

Of course, y'all can come to Waterford for an IT Bash too if you'd like. Talk about home track advantage!!

dj10
12-06-2006, 02:53 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but the only difference between teh Club and Pro is the Club has the chicane. Going with the Pro reduces the technical aspect of the course, no? Stick with the Club and run it both days.

[/b]

Going to the Pro course will not diminish your Mid Ohio experience or the technical aspect of the course. It will add a different element into the equation. :biggrinsanta:

lateapex911
12-06-2006, 04:11 PM
And, I STRONGLY advise the pro course, as better drivers will get thru turn 1 better, and the chicane removes the chance for a pass under braking that the pro course provides. Pro course races better, club course is a better trackday course.

tnord
12-06-2006, 04:27 PM
.....as better drivers will get thru turn 1 better, and the chicane removes the chance for a pass under braking that the pro course provides.
[/b]

i completely agree with this asessment and think it's the main aspect missing from heartland park.

dominojd
12-06-2006, 05:31 PM
If it were a normal regional, club course and pro course would be cool. If it's going to be marketed like being discussed here, only use one version of the course. It will be hard enough for people who have never seen the course to learn one, no less another version. Or if the need is felt to run both versions, there absolutely needs to be plenty of practice offered using both versions.

Choose one course and stick with it for this event.
[/b]

Don't be a girl Dave. :) Pro course straight club course turn. No biggie. I have only been there once and I would have rather gone straight. :)



I have a question for the MID-O locals. What is the lap time differential between the pro course and the club course? Just wondering.

R2 Racing
12-06-2006, 07:55 PM
I have a question for the MID-O locals. What is the lap time differential between the pro course and the club course? Just wondering.
[/b]
That's been debated and I don't know if I can give a 100% answer. Some have told me that they think its in the neighborhood of 2-3 seconds. Personally, I think it's down around 1-2. I suppose it would be different for different cars. If you slow down a lot for the chicane, it'll affect you more than someone who doesn't.

I've only ever run my car on the pro course once and it was on a damp track 2.5 years ago, so I can't really compare.

Joe Moser
12-06-2006, 09:58 PM
Difference betweent he Pro Course and the Club Course really isn't that significant for the CRX... I was running 1:43's on both of them! I'd say maybe .5 - 1.0 seconds difference at best.

Huffmaster may have had a slightly larger differential than that with the Pro course because the 7 doesn't handle thru the chicane as well as the CRX. I think he was running mid to low 1:41's on the Pro Course and mid 1:42's (although not in a race yet, only qualifying) on the Club Course.

IPRESS
12-06-2006, 11:40 PM
Did some one say Turn or No Turn?
I assume Andy was speaking for the small contingent of miata drivers.
Just as The Byrds use to sing "TURN TURN TURN"
Yes sir we vote for more TURNS!

RacerBill
12-07-2006, 06:58 AM
Since I am a relatively new driver, and my learning curve is pretty steep at this point, I can't say exactly what the difference in lap times are from the club course to the pro course, but I don't think it is any more than 2 seconds. The difference that I noticed is that I carried a bunch more speed into the corner using the Pro straight instead of the chicane. Felt like the car was leaning over like a destroyer (Navy type) making a sharp u-turn! :eclipsee_steering:

downingracing
12-07-2006, 09:24 AM
With my poor handeling Civic, I gain almost 2 seconds a lap on the pro course. OVR Autumn Calssic: On Sat. I ran a 1:47.4 and on Sun. I ran a 1:45.6. You can look at the diff. drivers/classes to see the differences between the Two configurations. Now my next trip to M-O, I ran the club course at a 1:46.6 with the same tires and no changes to the car, so take this information anyway you want. ymmv :)

Links to results from OVR Autumn Classic (Club on Sat. and Pro on Sun.)

Sat: http://www.ovr-scca.org/download/eventResu...atRaceFinal.xls (http://www.ovr-scca.org/download/eventResults/race/2006/AutumnClassicXXV_SatRaceFinal.xls)

Sun: http://www.ovr-scca.org/download/eventResu...unRaceFinal.xls (http://www.ovr-scca.org/download/eventResults/race/2006/AutumnClassicXXV_SunRaceFinal.xls)

zracre
12-07-2006, 10:13 AM
I think we should run the whole track in reverse to keep those Mid-O hotshoes thinking! :eclipsee_steering:

bldn10
12-07-2006, 11:08 AM
What course did NASA run? Some pretty quick times reported in Grassroots.

FWIW there is a Mid-Am Regional at St. Louis the same weekend. :(

charrbq
12-07-2006, 11:38 AM
I think we should run the whole track in reverse to keep those Mid-O hotshoes thinking! :eclipsee_steering:
[/b]
What a sick mind! If you think turn one is hairy now, just think what it would be going into the carrousel!

RacerBill
12-07-2006, 12:43 PM
What a sick mind! If you think turn one is hairy now, just think what it would be going into the carrousel!
[/b]

Naaaaaahhhhhh How about using the new cutoffs and make the keyhole a figure-8!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

charrbq
12-07-2006, 02:34 PM
Naaaaaahhhhhh How about using the new cutoffs and make the keyhole a figure-8!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D
[/b]
Shhh! Don't let Evan hear you say that! He may not fix his car so it will fit right in on a figure 8 race! :blink:

zracre
12-07-2006, 04:36 PM
hey it works on our giant 1/32 scale slot car track...just make em go the other way!

charrbq
12-07-2006, 04:47 PM
You mean reverse polarity? Some people have already tried that.

TAC
12-07-2006, 08:49 PM
Being a corner worker I think you guys are crazy. I don't think I would want to be staring at the wall under the bridge at turn One as I was trying to setup for the pit straight.

tom91ita
12-07-2006, 10:53 PM
What course did NASA run? Some pretty quick times reported in Grassroots.[/b]

nasa nationals ran the club course with the chicane for 2006. not clear what they will run in 2007.

zracer22
12-08-2006, 09:43 AM
What course did NASA run? Some pretty quick times reported in Grassroots.
[/b]

We ran with the chicane.

StephF
12-08-2006, 10:46 AM
Along the same lines of thought here in regards to future events: how old is IT now? The reason I ask, is because over on Apexspeed, they are busily planning for the 40th anniversary of FF. Sounds like they are planning a Formula car only weekend, with marquee races for the different classes. Perhaps there is a milestone coming up for IT that would work as a hook to really make it a kick-butt weekend, with the groups getting their own races, maybe an enduro thrown it, or a relay type race. Just food for thought. :emgift:

lateapex911
12-08-2006, 12:40 PM
Kirk?? I think he was there at the begining. It came form the NW RS ruleset, I THINK? Around '84???

RSTPerformance
12-08-2006, 01:42 PM
84' was the first year from what I understand here in NER... That was the year my dad got his licence and and started running in ITA with the Capri!!! Hummm anyone have a 1984 GCR around, it would be interesting what cars could make up the fields then and how its changed... crap this is off topic, time to get back on ;)

ok, even if IT isn't at a "special milestone (23 years?) maybe the event can still say "celebrating 23 years of Improuved Touring at Mid Ohio, then the following year (08) it could read celebrating 24yrs, etc... changing the theme of the weekend to this... The "IT Festaval" or "August Regional Sprints" (or whatever you call it) are in recognitioon for those IT drivers who have come and gone, are still with us, and those whom have grown up with us over the past X years...

Raymond " Looking forward to seeing the final product/schedule" Blethen

dickita15
12-08-2006, 02:39 PM
Hummm anyone have a 1984 GCR around, it would be interesting what cars could make up the fields then and how its changed... [/b]
the problem is back then the GCR and the catagory spec books were published and purchased seperatley.

maybe a steward or tech chief would have had the full set.

StephF
12-08-2006, 03:11 PM
ok, even if IT isn't at a "special milestone (23 years?) maybe the event can still say "celebrating 23 years of Improuved Touring at Mid Ohio, then the following year (08) it could read celebrating 24yrs, etc... changing the theme of the weekend to this... The "IT Festaval" or "August Regional Sprints" (or whatever you call it) are in recognitioon for those IT drivers who have come and gone, are still with us, and those whom have grown up with us over the past X years...

[/b]

However, in two years we could throw a 25th IT Anniversary bash...now that would be a great excuse to take over the whole danged weekend! :026:

dj10
12-08-2006, 06:05 PM
What course did NASA run? [/b]



Who cares what NASA does 1st of all?? THIS IS SCCA! "Ask yourself, what course do the PROS use and why? This should tell you guys / gals something.

Eagle7
12-09-2006, 01:56 PM
Um..., if 84 was the 1st year, 07 is the 24th. So we can have a 25th aniversary warmup event next summer.

bldn10
12-10-2006, 02:22 PM
"Who cares what NASA does 1st of all?? THIS IS SCCA! "Ask yourself, what course do the PROS use and why? This should tell you guys / gals something."

Look at my followup comment about times - that should tell you something - I just wanted to compare our times and theirs apples to apples. Had nothing to do w/ what config we should run.

The pros run w/o the chicane because I assume that is how the track was designed and intended to be run. And the chicane was added for club racing to slow entry into the keyhole. So, I'd say safety, and the avoidance of having to collect a lot of cars between groups in a long day of club racing. Personally, I'd like to run w/o it.

dj10
12-10-2006, 05:09 PM
Look at my followup comment about times - that should tell you something - I just wanted to compare our times and theirs apples to apples. Had nothing to do w/ what config we should run.

The pros run w/o the chicane because I assume that is how the track was designed and intended to be run. And the chicane was added for club racing to slow entry into the keyhole. So, I'd say safety, and the avoidance of having to collect a lot of cars between groups in a long day of club racing. Personally, I'd like to run w/o it.
[/b]

Bill, I'm just saying this will be a double event. Some contrast would be nice. You can't compare their time due to the modifications they are allowed to run. IMO I do know which ever way they do decide to run it, it will make no difference to me. This should be a big event and I will try my best to make it. :snow_cool:

TAC
12-10-2006, 07:08 PM
Everyone,

The Cincinnati race committee meets tomorrow night so check back here for an update sometime after 9 p.m. I'll let you know how things go.

Todd C.

tom91ita
12-10-2006, 09:34 PM
The pros run w/o the chicane because I assume that is how the track was designed and intended to be run. And the chicane was added for club racing to slow entry into the keyhole. .....[/b]

i'm pretty sure you've got this backwards.

the chicane was first and the straight section was added later to create the "pro course." not sure if it was for another passing zone or what. we all have our preferences and i like the chicane but am willing to go with the flow/vote on what we do or if we split between the two (different days, of course).

R2 Racing
12-10-2006, 10:30 PM
the chicane was first and the straight section was added later to create the "pro course." not sure if it was for another passing zone or what.[/b]
Exactly. The pro course design was later added in order to create another major passing zone for televised races. The only televised events that don't use it are the motorcycles, but that's apples and oranges.

xr4racer
12-10-2006, 11:05 PM
I think the straight was put in for CART

matt

dickita15
12-11-2006, 05:25 AM
I remember being at MO in the mid 80s for a Trans Am / Cart race. Someone lost it in the chicane and slid all the way across the track hit the wall at the exit of the keyhole crossing in the middle of traffic. The next year they added the pro course pavement.

924Guy
12-11-2006, 09:10 AM
I like the Pro course too, have run it with NASA, it works quite well and is fun, would be happy to do that circuit.

Rabbit07
12-11-2006, 09:51 AM
I remember being at MO in the mid 80s for a Trans Am / Cart race. Someone lost it in the chicane and slid all the way across the track hit the wall at the exit of the keyhole crossing in the middle of traffic. The next year they added the pro course pavement.
[/b]


David Coletti did that same thing in a Spec Neon last year during the NASA Nationals. Lucky he didn't hit another car!

R2 Racing
12-11-2006, 11:50 AM
David Coletti did that same thing in a Spec Neon last year during the NASA Nationals. Lucky he didn't hit another car!
[/b]
The same happened to me at NASA Nationals too, but luckily I was able to hit the sandtrap and start barrel rolling before reaching the backstraight. Whew, that was a close one! <_<

Racerlinn
12-11-2006, 03:41 PM
The same happened to me at NASA Nationals too, but luckily I was able to hit the sandtrap and start barrel rolling before reaching the backstraight. Whew, that was a close one! <_<
[/b]
Hey Ruck, there&#39;s something else you are better at than me!
When I go in the kitty litter, I just get stuck. But not you, Mr. Spectacular!! :114:

R2 Racing
12-11-2006, 05:19 PM
Hey Ruck, there&#39;s something else you are better at than me!
When I go in the kitty litter, I just get stuck. But not you, Mr. Spectacular!! :114:
[/b]
I&#39;m starting to loose track of all of these things that I&#39;m better at than you, but in this particular case, and you know me, I&#39;ll do anything to put on a show for the fans! :023:

:OLA: <----fans on the keyhole hill





Awaiting after-meeting update...

Edwin Ho
12-11-2006, 10:13 PM
I have a question for the MID-O locals. What is the lap time differential between the pro course and the club course? Just wondering.
[/b]

I don&#39;t think the times between Sat & Sun of the Autumn Classic can be compared. The track conditions were different and exagerate the time difference.

A good comparison might be between Jim Daniel&#39;s Pro-Miata time of 1:44.731 vs. Tony Coello&#39;s SMT record from last year of 1:45.946. Tony ran a 1:45.246 this year, but that was on the new pavement.

Ed.

TAC
12-11-2006, 10:56 PM
Hi Everyone,

A very productive meeting indeed. The Cincinnati Race Committee has put the I.T. Festival on the front burner for the Board Meeting set for January 19th. I can tell you we discussed several formats with much input from Butch Kummer with the ARRC being the hot topic. Butch and I have had a few lengthy e-mail discussions about class alignment and such. We are one step closer to bringing this thing to reality. The input has been reassuring. Couple of questions:

1. Pro straight start instead of pit straight?

2. Multiple sprint races with individual race winners? Or overall champs in each class after multiple races?
or a little of both?

3. Teardowns for race winners? Or just inspections with TEETH?

Keep us circled on the calendar! Aug. 10th-12th 2007,

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chairman

StephenB
12-11-2006, 11:12 PM
1. Pro straight start instead of pit straight?

2. Multiple sprint races with individual race winners? Or overall champs in each class after multiple races?
or a little of both?

3. Teardowns for race winners? Or just inspections with TEETH?

Keep us circled on the calendar! Aug. 10th-12th 2007,

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chairman
[/b]


1.) Never Raced at Mid Ohio but I have spectated the Runnoffs. I like the PRO straight Starts since EVERYONE can see the start.

2.) I like the British Touring car format with 2 races determining the weekend winner. but I also think it would be neat to do a points earned for the weekend and have a Total Weekend Winner in each class.

Sprint (8 Laps) On Saturdat that will get you points based on your finishing position and determine grid for Sunday.
then the feature (15 Laps) on Sunday that would be worth Double points. Then Final positions are based on points. Keeps it more interesting and definetly involves more strategy! The other thing I like about it is that you have to be consistantly good not just get lucky! (Like me back in 2003 at the ARRC finishing 3rd)

Maybe even add bonus points for Grid positions...

3.) Inspections similar to the ARRC after the races Sunday. Saturday inspections stinck and would eliminate some people from running on Sunday. (Due to the rebuild, not legality)

downingracing
12-12-2006, 07:39 AM
I don&#39;t think the times between Sat & Sun of the Autumn Classic can be compared. The track conditions were different and exagerate the time difference.

A good comparison might be between Jim Daniel&#39;s Pro-Miata time of 1:44.731 vs. Tony Coello&#39;s SMT record from last year of 1:45.946. Tony ran a 1:45.246 this year, but that was on the new pavement.

Ed.
[/b]

I don&#39;t remember the conditions being different... But I don&#39;t remember much these days! If you look at the individual times from Sat. to Sun., you will see that some people were much faster on the PRO course and some people didn&#39;t pickup any time at all. Look at the ITA group 3. Compare each driver&#39;s times from both days and take from that what you will. ;)

dj10
12-12-2006, 08:29 AM
Hi Everyone,

A very productive meeting indeed. The Cincinnati Race Committee has put the I.T. Festival on the front burner for the Board Meeting set for January 19th. I can tell you we discussed several formats with much input from Butch Kummer with the ARRC being the hot topic. Butch and I have had a few lengthy e-mail discussions about class alignment and such. We are one step closer to bringing this thing to reality. The input has been reassuring. Couple of questions:

1. Pro straight start instead of pit straight?

2. Multiple sprint races with individual race winners? Or overall champs in each class after multiple races?
or a little of both?

3. Teardowns for race winners? Or just inspections with TEETH?

Keep us circled on the calendar! Aug. 10th-12th 2007,

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chairman
[/b]



Todd, just think of this as a business. Ask yourself what can you as a region do to draw more people and that means spectators as well. I hope this will make your region some $. What do you think will make the racing more exciting? We&#39;ll show up and race, just tell us where and when. ;)

Make sure you are able to follow up if you implement tear downs. There are a few people that won&#39;t show if there will be tear downs. :birra: Cheaters, stay home for this one. hehe

lateapex911
12-12-2006, 09:09 AM
Hi Everyone,

A very productive meeting indeed. The Cincinnati Race Committee has put the I.T. Festival on the front burner for the Board Meeting set for January 19th. I can tell you we discussed several formats with much input from Butch Kummer with the ARRC being the hot topic. Butch and I have had a few lengthy e-mail discussions about class alignment and such. We are one step closer to bringing this thing to reality. The input has been reassuring. Couple of questions:

1. Pro straight start instead of pit straight?

2. Multiple sprint races with individual race winners? Or overall champs in each class after multiple races?
or a little of both?

3. Teardowns for race winners? Or just inspections with TEETH?

Keep us circled on the calendar! Aug. 10th-12th 2007,

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chairman
[/b]

WOW!

Impressive!

1- Pro straight...I assume you mean starts.
2- I like Stephen Blethens idea, so I guess my answer is a little of both. A small trophy to the individual race finishers, of course!
3- I am very impressed that you mentioned this! I can&#39;t remember it being on anyones list...but hey, bring it on! But ONLY if you can get the manpower and the procedures to do it correctly. (And here&#39;s a thought, why not do a "wildcard" teardown? In other words, announce early on that of the top X% cars from each class, the 1st (and as many as you feel you want to, or have the manpower for) will automatically have it&#39;s head remeoved, and another X will be chosen either at the scrutineers discretion or at random, or not at all. The idea here is to keep things a little mysterious. I think the ARRC teardowns are GREAT...and I love the fact that they do them, and the actual teardowns, while certainly a nervous time for some, are actually pretty friendly. But, they are predictable. I wonder if that predictability can foster a method of getting around them. So feel free to shake it up a bit!
4- Not mentioned, but NO chicane! Better racing without it. Theres plenty of technical corners at Mid Ohio, no need to add another.

Racerlinn
12-12-2006, 10:28 AM
Todd - great work so far!
My "vote":
Pro straight start (from way back in the pack where I&#39;m at, I&#39;d rather be coming out of the keyhole rather than stuck in the middle of the carousel :) )
I would prefer the normal race lengths each day as the folks in GLDIV will be using this event for GLDIV Champ Series points. Do a cumulative two day points to award weekend winners in each class, use poles for tie-breakers (and style points for anyone pulling a "Ruck").
I think true post-race tech on random items would be great - more than just weights. Highly intrusive tech on Saturday could be very painfull and interfere with :birra: :D
I&#39;ve never run there without the chicane. It&#39;s been done on other weekends, so why not run with the chicane on Saturday and without on Sunday? Mix it up a bit. I think by the end of Sunday morning quals everyone can remember to go straight up to the keyhole.

gran racing
12-12-2006, 10:33 AM
I wonder if that predictability can foster a method of getting around them. [/b]

Come on Jake, you don&#39;t wonder. <_< I really like your idea of a mystery items to be reviewed / torn down.

My first thought was how far should teardowns go for this event? The big plus with ARRC teardowns is that there&#39;s no urgency to put the thing back together since the event happens at the end of the season. I quickly checked the calender and noted that there&#39;s an event on the next weekend at LRP (and am sure at other tracks). If I were lucky enough to place at the event, would I then miss the next weekend&#39;s event as I attempt to figure out how things go back together? After thinking about it more, let&#39;s do this! One big item that adds validity to the ARRC is having these inspections. In order to make this a bigger event, it will be necessary to do something.

No major teardowns on Sat. though.

Greg Amy
12-12-2006, 10:38 AM
Todd, thanks for the update. If you&#39;re looking for feedback:

- No preference on the place for the start. You guys know the track better than most of us, I&#39;d go with whichever is safe; if they&#39;re both safe then whichever is more fun... ;)

- Multiple sprints is a nice idea, but it needs to be structured such that there is a clearly-defined "weekend champion". If individual race winners, then how about a points system for the champion trophy?

- The teardowns issue is a toughie. I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anyone here that would doubt my desire to have a clean car as the winner, nor anyone that can doubt my enthusiasm for a tear down. However, unlike the ARRC where I was able to tear down my car and leave it in the trailer for a while not having to deal with it (where it still is at this very moment), a tear-down in August creates logistical problems for folks continuing racing that year (possibly the following wekeend). I&#39;d suggest a series of serious non-destructive testing, designed to catch evidence of cheating, and if something suspicious is found move to tear downs. Example: use the Whistler to test for compression; if found out of spec then move to a head removal.

Waiting for August...

tom91ita
12-12-2006, 11:30 AM
.....
- The teardowns issue is a toughie. I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anyone here that would doubt my desire to have a clean car as the winner, nor anyone that can doubt my enthusiasm for a tear down. However, unlike the ARRC where I was able to tear down my car and leave it in the trailer for a while not having to deal with it (where it still is at this very moment), a tear-down in August creates logistical problems for folks continuing racing that year (possibly the following wekeend). I&#39;d suggest a series of serious non-destructive testing, designed to catch evidence of cheating, and if something suspicious is found move to tear downs. Example: use the Whistler to test for compression; if found out of spec then move to a head removal.

Waiting for August...
[/b]

what he said! i have a race the very next weekend at mid-ohio! and rather than tow there and back, i was going to try and drop off the truck and trailer nearby and find another way home.

my car (except for weight) is exactly as it was after NASA Nationals where i was expecting to be torn down! but if it is highly intrusive, i can&#39;t afford the time to tow home late sunday night and reassemble the car in time by thursday night.

and then if i stay away, i get labeled as a cheater. talk about no win!

course if only the top three get the teardowns, i don&#39;t have to worry and might show up anyways!

RSTPerformance
12-12-2006, 11:31 AM
As someone who came from out of region and raced at Mid Ohio...

1: Use the "pro" start but DON&#39;T use the horible starters that they always seemed to have at the SCCA RUNOFFS... Those starters were amongst the worst I have ever seen in 20+ years of watching racing. If the pack needs a waive off, then give them a waive off. More than just the first 2 rows is important.

2: Individual race winners, and overall "Champion." The 2nd race should value more points to help out those from out of region who are continualy learning the track that weekend...

3: Yes, teardowns on day 2. However not to interfear with travel and drinking (who does that anyway?) make sure that the IT races are the first races of the day before lunch. This will draw spectators, and alow ample time for teardowns. Maybe by the end of the day you could have an awards ceramony.

4: Added point... skip the keyhole, my car might like that better ;) Actually I don&#39;t care either way, let the locals who have run both courses make the decision. Although I will admit as someone who has raced at Mid-Ohio the track does not have a lot of passing zones, especially for low powered IT cars who depend on braking zones. Any help in that area is a BIG plus to decreasing fustrations and contact from "making a passing zone." - I can just imagine running with an ITB car in the mid pack of ITS cars that ummm yeah don&#39;t handle, thats the excuse right!!! lol

Just my thoughts :)

Raymond

R2 Racing
12-12-2006, 11:50 AM
My answers/points/words of average wisdom:

- I really don&#39;t care either way on where we start or which configuration we run. However, in all the times I&#39;ve raced at Mid Ohio, I&#39;ve never started on the backstraight so that could be fun (plus slow guys like Linn could get that warm fuzzy feeling of actually seeing the green flag for once ;) ). The club course is a little more technical and might help the locals a bit (of which I am, so I won&#39;t vote against it), but the pro course definately creates an additional passing zone, which always makes for more exciting racing.

- I like the idea of doing multiple races with a points scoring system to determine the overall weekend winner. It&#39;ll add an extra level of planning and excitment, plus just be something kind of fun. I&#39;m against the idea of qualifying races that are meerly done to set the grid for an actual race.

- The biggest problem I see with big teardowns at Mid Ohio is the lack of a place to do it. At Road Atlanta they have an actual permanent tech building with the scales and enough room to fit everyone under a covered roof. For any of us who have torn down at the ARRC, imagine doing that in the rain or blistering sunlight. Either a tent or something would need to be set up.

- I perfectly understand everyone&#39;s point of not wanting to teardown their engines because it&#39;s the middle of the season and I kind fo feel the same. So how about this? At the ARRC, it&#39;s pretty much just engines that get checked over thoroughly, right? So how about at this event we check other things like suspension (legal camber adjusters, legal chassis stiffening, legal mounting points, etc.) or stuff like that? Just an idea. It certainly wouldn&#39;t require anyone to have to seriously teardown their cars to do, but it&#39;s probably something that&#39;s just important. Like I said, it&#39;s just an idea and I&#39;m ok if you hate it. I&#39;m just looking for a way to add to the seriousness of this event by making sure cars are legal, but not have to require the usually tough and time consuming teardowns of the ARRC.

RacerBill
12-12-2006, 12:09 PM
I second Kevin&#39;s comments. I don&#39;t think they are far off all the other comments I&#39;ve read.

The idea of using the backstraight start is great. I have seen some really botched starts with large fields on the front straight.

There have been some great comments about how to enforce rules and tech. Running IT late morning and early afternoon, and use full teardown only as a last resort - check other areas of the car (washer bottles!!! just kidding :rolleyes:

But, the weekend sounds great, can&#39;t wait, going to have to start working on the car tonight. Uh Oh, just remembered the family has tickets to Cats tonight. Guess it will have to wait till Wednesday....unless we get in early, and I can start going through my spares......

Rabbit07
12-12-2006, 05:21 PM
I like back straight starts

I like no chicane

I agree with no engine tear downs. I have some considerable experience in this area (don&#39;t ask) Clever cheaters don&#39;t cheat stuff you can see. You need to look at things like suspensions, transmissions, seam welding, ect.

Example: 1st place gets head torn off and everything is teched OK. How do you know his crank isn&#39;t lightened? How do you know his rods are stock length. The list goes on and on.

dj10
12-12-2006, 06:33 PM
I like back straight starts

I like no chicane

I agree with no engine tear downs. I have some considerable experience in this area (don&#39;t ask) Clever cheaters don&#39;t cheat stuff you can see. You need to look at things like suspensions, transmissions, seam welding, ect.

Example: 1st place gets head torn off and everything is teched OK. How do you know his crank isn&#39;t lightened? How do you know his rods are stock length. The list goes on and on.
[/b]

So you what about displacement checks or illegal cams? I&#39;ve heard of people running 2.0L when their only allowed a 1.8L. Are you going to let them go? For this to work there has to be some legitimancy to this event or it will be just another double regional.

Rabbit07
12-12-2006, 07:09 PM
The whistler ect is good.

I agree that there should be a tech inspection, but pulling people engines apart?

There were references to this event being similar to the June Sprints. Well, I have never seen an engine torn down at the Sprints that wasn&#39;t protested. There is the normal 30 mins and some minor checks and go home.

Edwin Ho
12-12-2006, 08:00 PM
I don&#39;t remember the conditions being different... But I don&#39;t remember much these days! If you look at the individual times from Sat. to Sun., you will see that some people were much faster on the PRO course and some people didn&#39;t pickup any time at all. Look at the ITA group 3. Compare each driver&#39;s times from both days and take from that what you will. ;)
[/b]

I&#39;d say that for us (group 2), the track was better on Sun vs. Sat. Maybe the track got better as the day passed on Sat. I only looked at the fast guys since their performance is likely to be the most consistent.

Ed.

x-ring
12-13-2006, 08:51 AM
So you what about displacement checks or illegal cams? I&#39;ve heard of people running 2.0L when their only allowed a 1.8L. Are you going to let them go? For this to work there has to be some legitimancy to this event or it will be just another double regional.
[/b]

No disagreement on that from me but, guys, before we start making too many plans for Sunday&#39;s impound sessions we need to get the Tech crew in on the discussion.

Full teardowns, like SM at the Runoffs, is an enormous amount of work for the Techies (ask me how I know...) and would be even more so for even the top car in each of the five GCR IT classes.

Unless you want to be there untill long after the sun goes down think carefully about what you want to look at.

924Guy
12-13-2006, 10:09 AM
+1 more to Kevin&#39;s comments...

lateapex911
12-13-2006, 11:43 AM
I agree that full teardowns are probably out of the question due to time, place, and manpower. But I do like the idea of any and all forms of probing, checking and otherwise digging around.

Now, that said, I hope it&#39;s not going to be Runoffs stuff like missing chuncks of tailights that get people DQ&#39;ed. But if the whistler shows two ITA Miatas (lets just use them cuz there&#39;s buckets of them, for our example) to behave exactly alike, while a third is distinctively different, then I would hope further investigation would be done.

And having it be done on a "Impound all for everything" or a "Impound 1-3, 5, 7, 9, 11, for random checks" basis means that if nobody knows what WILL happen, but they fear what MIGHT happen, they&#39;ll be less likely to show up with some obvious cheats. (And yes, there are some of those out there)

So, I hope they announce that there will be checks, and they may be invasive, and they may be for just the top runners, or maybe more....or not. ;)

rross
12-13-2006, 12:31 PM
Some questions from a member of the tech crew who will be at the event:
Would you be willing to chip in $10 per driver to a fund to reimburse those who must disassemble their engines (i.e. take the head off to measure valves, bore, stroke - fee would reimburse new head gasket)?
Would you be willing to find some of the specialized tools you&#39;re requesting (i.e. a whistler)?
What about fuel testing?
Your ideas of checking things that don&#39;t require engine disassembly are intriguing - anyone have a specific list that&#39;s applicable to all makes/models? Keep in mind that this event is in August - can be very hot, dusty, stormy.

lateapex911
12-13-2006, 01:06 PM
Yes, but that brings up some math. Lets say you get: ITC-6 drivers, ITB 14, ITA 27, ITS 23, ITR 4. total: 74 drivers, x$10.00 =$740.

$740 buys more head gaskets than the tech guys want to measure, i presume. What happens to the overage?

Specialized tools: Funding, hmm...well who owns them, and what will they be used for. presumably the Region, and I&#39;d assume they&#39;d use them in the day to day life of the tech dept. So, while I probably don&#39;t really care THAT much, is it fair to have one group fund such an investment when the benefit will be spread to many others?

Fuel: ? I don&#39;t know...I am really no able to make a knowledgable call on whether the fuel tesiting is fair or effective.

All makes an models must not have improper air induction systems, like ram air, holes cut in firewalls/unibody sections for cold air inlets (common), cars must not be too low, their air dams must meet proper measurements, wheels must fit bodywork (tread tests), batteries must be in correct place and correct size, wipers must be on, heater cores installed, and thats just stuff I&#39;ve notice walking thru open impounds....

RSTPerformance
12-13-2006, 02:15 PM
$10 is fine, however if you have a top notch effort that can get you in the front you can probably afford a new head gasket on your own. It is the time that is hard to find. When we went to the ARRC we built that into the upfront cost. Also do you refund even if the person is illigal? If you answer no, then why not if it was a lightened crank, not an illigal gasket?

Lets not even get into fuel testing... For the record I vote AGAINST it.

Raymond "93 octane pump gas baby" Blethen

dj10
12-13-2006, 02:57 PM
Yes, but that brings up some math. Lets say you get: ITC-6 drivers, ITB 14, ITA 27, ITS 23, ITR 4. total: 74 drivers, x$10.00 =$740.

$740 buys more head gaskets than the tech guys want to measure, i presume. What happens to the overage?

Specialized tools: Funding, hmm...well who owns them, and what will they be used for. presumably the Region, and I&#39;d assume they&#39;d use them in the day to day life of the tech dept. So, while I probably don&#39;t really care THAT much, is it fair to have one group fund such an investment when the benefit will be spread to many others?

Fuel: ? I don&#39;t know...I am really no able to make a knowledgable call on whether the fuel tesiting is fair or effective.

All makes an models must not have improper air induction systems, like ram air, holes cut in firewalls/unibody sections for cold air inlets (common), cars must not be too low, their air dams must meet proper measurements, wheels must fit bodywork (tread tests), batteries must be in correct place and correct size, wipers must be on, heater cores installed, and thats just stuff I&#39;ve notice walking thru open impounds....
[/b]



The big thing with me is "displacement checks and possible porting of rotarys"

lateapex911
12-13-2006, 03:21 PM
The big thing with me is "displacement checks and possible porting of rotarys"



[/b]

Displacement on a rotary? Easy...measure the rotor housing. Done from the outside. Porting? Write it up. Post the bond, and require that Topeka procure a stock example for comparision.They can procure one before the event, but it MUST be done by a third party, and as you wouldn&#39;t be informing the protestee of the protest, the third party must be the officials. To my knowledge, adn I am assuming that you are talking about ITS rotaries, there is no template available to an SCCA scrutineer to make the judgement on the 13B ports.

(Atlanta region has a go/no go guage they use on the 12A exhaust ports, but again, nothing exists to my knowledge for the 12A intakes)

R2 Racing
12-13-2006, 04:46 PM
The big thing with me is "displacement checks and possible porting of rotarys"
[/b]
I hear what you&#39;re saying, but that&#39;s what the ARRC is for. Plus it&#39;s at the end of the season, so people are more willing to do a tear down if they have all winter to put it back together.

Jake kind of ran with my idea. Consider checking legality on things like ride height, air dams, camber adjusters, heater cores, seam welding, too many additional chassis stiffening bars, tire contact patch underneath fenders, air intakes, cage design, etc. All of those things require no major teardown, no special tools, and could be given a "yes" or "no" pretty quickly.

Again, just an idea. You&#39;re allowed to hate it if you want. But in my opinion, if the word gets out that we&#39;re checking for legality of cars, the cheaters will stay away, no matter what we&#39;re checking. It&#39;s kind of been my opinion that if some guy cleans house in his region/division but never goes to the ARRC, ever, well there&#39;s your answer. I think you&#39;ll see the same thing here.

dj10
12-13-2006, 05:04 PM
Displacement on a rotary? [/b]

Displacement checks on piston engines. This would keep some cheats away!
While you guys are pissing around looking at the obvious there are guys running 2.0l engine with cams when there only allowed 1.8L. I&#39;ve seen this happen before. If you aren&#39;t going to add some validity to this race don&#39;t waste everyone&#39;s time by promoting this as some big event. I personally don&#39;t want to be torn down but I&#39;ll be happy to be if I finish well and they do tear me down, just to be prove I&#39;m legal. I&#39;m not saying tear everyone down but if people don&#39;t know what you will be doing, this should be enought to keep the cheats away. To advertise you are not going to do tears downs is like an open invitation to cheats.

greendot
12-13-2006, 05:10 PM
Displacement on a rotary? Easy...measure the rotor housing. Done from the outside. Porting? Write it up. Post the bond, and require that Topeka procure a stock example for comparision.They can procure one before the event, but it MUST be done by a third party, and as you wouldn&#39;t be informing the protestee of the protest, the third party must be the officials. To my knowledge, adn I am assuming that you are talking about ITS rotaries, there is no template available to an SCCA scrutineer to make the judgement on the 13B ports.

(Atlanta region has a go/no go guage they use on the 12A exhaust ports, but again, nothing exists to my knowledge for the 12A intakes)
[/b]

I think the displacement reference was for piston engines, but my main question brings out my own ignorance.
I thought that at the ARRC race they use a popsicle or lollipop or something to verify rotary ports. A go-nogo gauge. I&#39;ve never seen one or seen them do it, but I hear about it frequently. Maybe that&#39;s the 12a exhaust gauge you&#39;re talking about, but I was under the impression that intake ports were also checked somehow.

Robby Huffmaster, you reading this to enlighten us?

Also unfortunately I didn&#39;t realize until I read it here that the impound area was friendly this year. Previously, my last time there about 2001, you were chased away if not directly involved with a car there. Had I known that the attitude had changed I&#39;d have been more observant of how they checked the rotary cars.

gran racing
12-13-2006, 05:12 PM
I think doing what ya&#39;ll are talking about (not too invasive) makes sense, BUT don&#39;t necessarily advertise that as Jake&#39;s recommended. To make it fun, have the people who are being inspected pick out of a hat the items the inspectors will verify. :D

RSTPerformance
12-13-2006, 05:21 PM
Jake kind of ran with my idea. Consider checking legality on things like ride height, air dams, camber adjusters, heater cores, seam welding, too many additional chassis stiffening bars, tire contact patch underneath fenders, air intakes, cage design, etc. All of those things require no major teardown, no special tools, and could be given a "yes" or "no" pretty quickly.
[/b]

Driver mode on: If you don&#39;t check engines and check the rest of the car instead then please ask in advance that tech and the Stewards work together to ensure that we/you do not DQ people who have illigalities that DID NOT give them a competitive advantage. Those that do NOT have a performance gaining advantage, just write them up, put them on probation and have the log book and car checked at each race after (3 or so races) to be sure that it has been brought into compliance. Basically don&#39;t DQ someone who travles 5 or 10 hrs to compete just because thier washer bottle isn&#39;t in compliance. If you do DQ a bunch of people for things such as washer bottles then IMO you will give the race a bad name for those just looking to have fun at a well attended and respected race.

Again I only say this because I feal that if you skip out on checking things that would lead to success (cams, over boaring, compresion ratio, etc) then we should be a little more gentle on the things that didn&#39;t even put them on the podium.

Now this does not mean all your suggestions shouldn&#39;t get a DQ... I do think that ride height, air dams, camber adjusters, seam welding, too many additional chassis stiffening bars, tire contact patch underneath fenders, air intakes, and so on are performance gainers and deserve a DQ. But things like heater cores, washer bottles, cage designs, missing door panels, etc. may or may not give a significant performance advantage. Those things should be looked at closely to determine the appropriate "disciplinary action."

Your asking for feedback... thats what ya got!!!

Raymond

StephenB
12-13-2006, 05:23 PM
I think doing what ya&#39;ll are talking about (not too invasive) makes sense, BUT don&#39;t necessarily advertise that as Jake&#39;s recommended. To make it fun, have the people who are being inspected pick out of a hat the items the inspectors will verify. :D
[/b]


I like picking out of a hat!!

Please don&#39;t make the mistake on saying what will be looked at before the even. If we say we are not going to check engines.....

I think if we do a complete teardown on one car in all IT classes that would be fine. If we run all races Sunday AM with the knowledge that one car will get torn down ARRC style then the cheaters will stay away except those that gamble. Then AFTER the races are finished take the top 3 numbers of all winners in one hat and the item that will be teched in another hat. (have something different on each car... 1 being an engine check, another suspension, ect) Then you pick a number and pick a tech item from each hat! This will keep it fair and deffinetly save on time, and add some excitement for everyone in impound as the antisipation builds!!

Stephen

Andy Bettencourt
12-13-2006, 08:06 PM
Driver mode on: If you don&#39;t check engines and check the rest of the car instead then please ask in advance that tech and the Stewards work together to ensure that we/you do not DQ people who have illigalities that DID NOT give them a competitive advantage. Those that do NOT have a performance gaining advantage, just write them up, put them on probation and have the log book and car checked at each race after (3 or so races) to be sure that it has been brought into compliance. Basically don&#39;t DQ someone who travles 5 or 10 hrs to compete just because thier washer bottle isn&#39;t in compliance. If you do DQ a bunch of people for things such as washer bottles then IMO you will give the race a bad name for those just looking to have fun at a well attended and respected race.

Again I only say this because I feal that if you skip out on checking things that would lead to success (cams, over boaring, compresion ratio, etc) then we should be a little more gentle on the things that didn&#39;t even put them on the podium.

Now this does not mean all your suggestions shouldn&#39;t get a DQ... I do think that ride height, air dams, camber adjusters, seam welding, too many additional chassis stiffening bars, tire contact patch underneath fenders, air intakes, and so on are performance gainers and deserve a DQ. But things like heater cores, washer bottles, cage designs, missing door panels, etc. may or may not give a significant performance advantage. Those things should be looked at closely to determine the appropriate "disciplinary action."

Your asking for feedback... thats what ya got!!!

Raymond [/b]

I have the perfect solution for that. BRING A LEGAL CAR.

Podium guys should get displacement/compression/cam checks. Techs should be schooled on 12A/13B&#39;s and all rotories should have to pull exhaust. Random checks should include the &#39;little&#39; stuff like suspension items, Air intake source, ride height, air dams.

If this is to be a pro-caliber event, small stuff is a no-go as well.

dj10
12-13-2006, 08:53 PM
If this is to be a pro-caliber event[/b]





"If this is to be a pro-caliber event"

Enought Said

TAC
12-13-2006, 09:08 PM
Hi guys,


We are going to try to make this a " Pro Caliber " event. Our tech people have been reading the suggestions and have already plucked out some very good information. Remember being the inaugural event means a few growing pains. I can&#39;t say what will be put into the final proposal in for the January board meeting but the Pro Starts on the back straight and the Pro straight instead of the Chicane are being discussed. The idea is to build this into a warm-up event for the ARRC similar to the June Sprints are to the Run-offs. But to do this we must start with a good base and work our way up.



Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chair

Andy Bettencourt
12-13-2006, 09:17 PM
For the record, all that has been done already is well beyond expectations. If we stick with it, this event will grow and grow. Thanks.

dj10
12-13-2006, 09:56 PM
Hi guys,


We are going to try to make this a " Pro Caliber " event. Our tech people have been reading the suggestions and have already plucked out some very good information. Remember being the inaugural event means a few growing pains. I can&#39;t say what will be put into the final proposal in for the January board meeting but the Pro Starts on the back straight and the Pro straight instead of the Chicane are being discussed. The idea is to build this into a warm-up event for the ARRC similar to the June Sprints are to the Run-offs. But to do this we must start with a good base and work our way up.



Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chair [/b]

Todd, you guys and gals have a lot of hard work ahead of you. I&#39;m sure I can say for us racers "Thanks". Your should reap what you shall sow :114:

Just don&#39;t let the cat out of the bag what you are going to do in impound. :D

RSTPerformance
12-13-2006, 10:19 PM
Hi guys,
We are going to try to make this a " Pro Caliber " event.
[/b]

If this is a "pro caliber" event, then I am sure that thier will be full blown tech inspections as are done at the ARRC. If that is done, then I would expect the same level of profesionalism by competitors as that at the ARRC. In other words you had better have your washer bottles ;)

Raymond "As Andy said, BRING A LEGAL CAR, this isn&#39;t your normal regional" Blethen

PS: thanks for all the hard work!!!

lateapex911
12-14-2006, 09:37 AM
Years ago, in one of my first years racing, there was a drivers meeting t discuss an upcoming NASCAR Busch North support race at Lime Rock. THe Grand poobah at the time said, that this wouldn&#39;t be run like a normal race...his word was final, and whatever he said went. Period.

Then he went on to say, "no protesting, no worrying about little things and just bring your cars, make &#39;em clean, and just don&#39;t put V8s in them, OK?" There were some murmered chuckles in the crowd after that statement.

I heard THAT, and a sinking feeling hit my stomach. Hers&#39;s this guy, basically saying "Cheatit up boys, just don&#39;t be BIG idiots about it..."

I hated that. Heck, just driving my car TO the track AND racing AND driving home was as much as I could handle! Tearing the motor down?? And making it "REALLY" fast? I wouldn&#39;t know where to start! LOL

I like the sounds of THIS event a LOT more.

My suggestion to tech is be fair. But be strict. Tell people to bring legal cars, and hold them to it. Use the random element of surprse. Don&#39;t worry if you can&#39;t check every car for everything....but if there&#39;s something thats not right about a car..any car, including mine, write it up.

dj10
12-14-2006, 09:56 AM
In other words you had better have your washer bottles ;)



Don&#39;t get me started on this!! This is the biggest bunch of BullSHIT I&#39;ve ever see in any rule book from any organization ever in the HISTORY OF MAN!!!!!!!!! There are many more important things to have like a oil catch than the STUPID WASHER BOTTLE THAT NEVER IS FILLED OR ANY ON CARES THAT IT WORKS OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad1:

ENOUGH!!! I&#39;M WRITING A LETTER TO THE CRB TODAY!!!!!!!! :mad1: :mad1: :mad1:

greendot
12-14-2006, 10:05 AM
Am I the only one that uses the washer bottle for an oil catch??????????????????

dj10
12-14-2006, 10:29 AM
Am I the only one that uses the washer bottle for an oil catch?????????????????? [/b]

What happens when you buy a car and there is a good Aluminum Moroso Oil catch/ vent sitting exactly where the washer bottle is? My setup is much safer and more durable than a chinsey plastic container. Hmmm, lets see, safety or plastic. So hard to choose.


Any more discussion on this lets use "rules and regs" this is not the appropriate place for this.

Dave Burchfield
12-14-2006, 10:43 AM
Matt,

Yes, the RX7 will be there.......a new engine is in the process right now.

All,

Suffice it to say that tech will be appropriate to the stature of the event. The person coordinating it is a Senior license holder with many years of Runoffs and Pro experience who is interested in the whole experience being meaningful. As a competitor and member of the region, I will feel good about the whole deal.

This is going to be so much fun for everyone..........I can hardly wait until all can be revealed. I expect to be the first to be registered.

RSTPerformance
12-14-2006, 10:52 AM
In other words you had better have your washer bottles ;)



Don&#39;t get me started on this!! This is the biggest bunch of BullSHIT I&#39;ve ever see in any rule book from any organization ever in the HISTORY OF MAN!!!!!!!!! There are many more important things to have like a oil catch than the STUPID WASHER BOTTLE THAT NEVER IS FILLED OR ANY ON CARES THAT IT WORKS OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad1:

ENOUGH!!! I&#39;M WRITING A LETTER TO THE CRB TODAY!!!!!!!! :mad1: :mad1: :mad1:
[/b]


umm that was partial sarcasm... "IE: the wink ;)"

Basically in one post I said, lets not murder people for noncompetitive advantage stuff, especially if we are not checking the "meat" or "real cheaters." If this is a "pro caliber" event, then we/you should be expected to be legal with the entire car. Now that still doesn&#39;t mean be silly and drive away members for stupid stuff.

Raymond

Andy Bettencourt
12-14-2006, 11:07 AM
Don&#39;t get me started on this!! This is the biggest bunch of BullSHIT I&#39;ve ever see in any rule book from any organization ever in the HISTORY OF MAN!!!!!!!!! There are many more important things to have like a oil catch than the STUPID WASHER BOTTLE THAT NEVER IS FILLED OR ANY ON CARES THAT IT WORKS OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad1:
ENOUGH!!! I&#39;M WRITING A LETTER TO THE CRB TODAY!!!!!!!! :mad1: :mad1: :mad1:
[/b]

Dan,

Save your keystrokes. The washer bottle is just the lightning rod for items people consider &#39;useless&#39; in racecars. There is no mention of them specifically in the ITCS but people love to harp on them. IT is based in Showroom stock with a decent amount of allowed mods. There are tons of &#39;non-performance-based&#39; items people would remove if they could - and it has been proven that one persons idea of usless is way different than others, no need to open Pandoras box, this is easy stuff. I don&#39;t care how old your car is, it&#39;s not hard to source these types of parts - eBay is king. Your car came with a cool catch can that replaces a part that is supposed to be there? Move it. I have to &#39;over-engineer&#39; a similar item to stay compliant. Dems the rules.

Back on topic...I agree with Jakes post:
My suggestion to tech is be fair. But be strict. Tell people to bring legal cars, and hold them to it. Use the random element of surprse. Don&#39;t worry if you can&#39;t check every car for everything....but if there&#39;s something thats not right about a car..any car, including mine, write it up.[/b]

Rabbit07
12-14-2006, 08:02 PM
Devils advocate here;

Pro Caliber event? The Pros cheat way more than the Club Racers :dead_horse:

Andy Bettencourt
12-14-2006, 08:57 PM
How about "Championship Level Event"

Rabbit07
12-15-2006, 08:01 AM
How about "Championship Level Event"
[/b]

My comment was tounge &#39;n cheek, I hope I didn&#39;t upset the apple cart.

I have to admit that I am a bit cynical. There are many people here that seem very concerned abut the tech at this event. Personally I am a big fan of more tech involvement at every Regional, National, ect. The fact of the matter is that the tech crew, the stewards, ect are all volunteers and they want to go home at the end of the event as well. The legitimacy of the event is not based on whether the cars get torn down or not. At the National level if you want to win the Triple Crown you have to win your division, win the June Sprints, and win the Run-offs. Very little tear downs happen before the Run-offs. If the ARRC is the Run-Offs for IT then let the tear downs get done there. This race may be a very good way to see who is going to be likely to win the ARRC, just like people look to the people the win the Sprints for possible Run-Offs winners. If they are “Cheating” find it at the ARRC. If they don’t go to the ARRC, who cares!

As far as washer bottles go, I think it is funny that people get all fired up about it either way. Both of my cars have em, but I could care less if anyone else&#39;s does.

TAC
12-16-2006, 09:23 AM
Hi guys,

The proposal we will be presenting to the Board in Jaunary has two concerns. It seems like there is a lot of events on the calendar Aug. 10th-12th. Is there a possiblity that.

A. Drivers will come for an I.T. Festival because its the first one?

B. Drivers will skip the event and wait for next year if this one is successful? ( i.e. wait for feedback)

The idea is to build this event up as I have said before. But to do this we feel we need support races to go with the I.T. race groups. Thus the proposal to include a Spec Miata race group and a Spec Racer Ford race group. Call it the I.T. Festival / the SPEC-tacle of Motor Sports. ( Long name I doubt we could fit that on a t-shirt.) Anyway I digress. I have talked with Butch Kummer with ARRC and we feel we can get close to the alignment in the I.T. groups that ARRC is proposing for 2007. It won&#39;t be perfect and down the road ( hopfully the 25 anniverary in 2009) the idea is to bring it closer to what you will see at ARRC . BUT ! we feel we need to make sure the 1st year is successful, keep the seat time high ( you guys wanting to run two classes will be saddle sore by Sunday evening !) and keep the prices at a resonable level. The proposal
is to invite the Spec guys. Let me know your thoughts and what the Spec Miata and SRF drivers think. Keep the Tech suggestions coming. The more we reinforce this thought the better the idea will look to the Cincinnati Board in January.

Thanks for the input and support

Todd C.
Cincinnati Race Chair

lateapex911
12-16-2006, 10:50 AM
I had never thought that it would be limited to IT cars only.....I can&#39;t see how that would fly, so I would have no problem with the suggestion of SRF and SM.

TAC
12-16-2006, 02:34 PM
With the start of ITR is seems to be a category that will always grow. The grouping itself is now up to 7 catagories. ITA,B,C,E,S,R,7. That&#39;s seven stand alone race groups if you get a turnout of 35 to 40 cars per class. But with so many tracks and events over the summer it is hard to get that kind of turnout at any given track.

Todd

lateapex911
12-16-2006, 06:24 PM
Hmmm...

I imagine you&#39;ll get, max:

ITC - 12
ITB - 22
ITA - 32
ITS - 27
ITR - 6
ITE (I forgot about ITE, LOL...no idea, 18??)
IT - 7 (forgot about this one, too) 13

Total 130

SM - 44
SPF - 38

total Specs 82

total all 212

C. Ludwig
12-17-2006, 11:58 AM
1) I like the multi-race format. Just use moto scoring.

1st = 1 point
2nd = 2
etc.

Receive points for each race. Low point total wins. Weight is given to the Sunday race over the Saturday. Meaning the guy that runs 2nd Saturday and 1st Sunday (3 pts) beats the guy that ran 1st Saturday and 2nd Sunday (3 pts).

2) Race length. I vote for equal lengths each day. Normal sprint race length. If you can wittle down the number of groups then add to race length each day.

3) This will be a radical idea to some of you and I don&#39;t expect it to fly but instead of the Saturday races simply gridding the race for Sunday (and/or applying to overall scoring) how about inverting the top 4-6 starters from Saturday for the Sunday start? With moto scoring you can&#39;t afford to sandbag Saturday. Then Sunday invert the field. Would make for something spectator friendly.

4) Want people to make the trip? Money talks. Real prize money. Not the "possible 2 million in contingency payout" the Runoffs and NASA brag about. Attended a USAC race Saturday night that offered $50k to anyone that could double up in the sprint and midget races. Bill Simpson was "offering" the purse. Truth is the purse is underwritten and Simpson&#39;s outlay was no where near $50k. The purse created a lot of buzz even though the chance of someone winning it was about zero.

I&#39;m not expecting a $50k purse for an IT race. But a chance to take something home other than a $2 plaque would draw me into finding a ride or building one. In my case the Indy region offering an SM cash race early this year was the only thing that got me looking for an SCCA ride all year. Spare me the "we&#39;re all amatuers, money ruins racing" BS. The yearly bill to campaign a top notch IT car would of made some pro teams blush a decade ago. Cars don&#39;t run on wood plaques and I&#39;m sure as hell not going to haul half way across the US or skip a local points race for a bigger wood plaque.

Thinking long term...truely tie in the triple crown and offer something along the lines of an award for winning all three. A spring west coast or SW race. The mid-year deal at M-O and the ARRC in the fall. Something more than a trophy. Three regions (leave the national office out of it please) collaborate on a purse (we all have enough trophies) and the draw becomes real. IT is the largest group in SCCA. Make that work for the event.

What would it cost to have a $10k purse underwritten for someone who wins the triple crown in their class PLUS the overall ARRC enduro? Would add lots of buzz and help draw the top competitors to all three venues.

5) Tech. How many people have said part of what legitimizes the ARRC is the teardown process? Lots. I firmly believe most IT racers are legal (washer bottles not withstanding) but there are the select few that stop at nothing. Passing tech after a win adds to the victory IMO.

I agree on no tear downs Saturday. But hearing people whine, yeah I said it, about having to have the head back on the car before a race the next weekend is laughable. Circle track guys that run two and three nights a week 20 weeks a year AND hold down real 40+ hr/week jobs are rolling there eyes from under a car right now. I&#39;m sorry, but buck up.

The logistics at M-O might be a hurdle. Enough knowledgeable tech people and covered space. Hell, Holiday Canopy has a big advertisement over the tech shed. Ask them to donate some more cover for the week.

6)An enduro would be nice. The date, so close to Nelson, would be a tough sell.

RSTPerformance
12-17-2006, 10:28 PM
Am I reading things correct??? This is now going to be a restricted regional? I thought it was a regular regional with a concentration on marketing the IT races?

Also I don&#39;t like the "Tripple crown" idea, as it seems very hard for most IT guys to get to all three tracks... realisticly I don&#39;t see it happaning. However I do like the idea of having a "National Champion." Gets points from overall finish from each of the three weekends, and crown an overall National IT champion.

Raymond "This is looking better and better" Blethen

TAC
12-18-2006, 06:52 AM
To All,

Yes we are looking at making this a Restricted Double Regional. 5 race groups. Lots of seat time. The proposal is for 4 sessions over the weekend culminating into 150 minutes of track time per race group. Or we stay with a Double regional and go back to more mixed classes and at the max. 7 race groups. Seat time drops off to about 90 minutes for the weekend. But we restore champ and division series points.
Thats pretty much our two options going into January.

Todd

gran racing
12-18-2006, 07:37 AM
Any idea what the entry fees would be for the two options?

dickita15
12-18-2006, 07:37 AM
I think that it should be pretty obvious but for those of us considering coming to this event from a distance the more track time and the more racing the better. The quality of the event is much more important to those of us with a long tow that the entry fee. Even though we have a local event that we would have to pass on this is something my teammate and I are interested in. Now we just have to figure out how to get the racecars as well as something to use in the pdx to help learn the track out there out there.

By the way I have been lurking at apexspeed ever since the marrs race group thread started and already there is someone from that board who is complaining that a IT festival is a threat to open wheel racing. :rolleyes:

TAC
12-18-2006, 05:04 PM
I know that WDC considered dropping the wings & things group from the MARRS series due to undersubscription in the open-wheeled groups. We have the same problem even when we host an event on 4th of July weekend. There are still 4 Mid-Ohio dates National and Regional level on the calendar that will host open wheel classes, as well as 12 other National and Regional level weekends around GLDivision on other tracks. Thats a whole lotta weekends to choose from without Cincinnati Region in the mix.

Todd

Rabbit07
12-18-2006, 05:25 PM
Also I don&#39;t like the "Tripple crown" idea, as it seems very hard for most IT guys to get to all three tracks... realisticly I don&#39;t see it happaning. However I do like the idea of having a "National Champion." Gets points from overall finish from each of the three weekends, and crown an overall National IT champion.

Raymond "This is looking better and better" Blethen
[/b]

I was not suggesting that there should be a tripple crown for IT. What I was trying to get across is that this is somethat that is held in high regard with or without tear downs.

StephenB
12-18-2006, 10:13 PM
I like the Pro-caliber mentality. I can&#39;t wait to see the enty fees and the CASH payouts!

when do you expect the details on this event as the new year is almost here it is time to put in vacation time! This may be one of the first Pro IT races I have been in with Cash rewards!!

TAC
12-18-2006, 10:27 PM
We will not be "paying" anything but attention to how we you guys drive!

Todd

StephenB
12-18-2006, 10:46 PM
I appretiate your hard work and I hope your region appretiates the hype that has been created already.

If the entry fee is around $250 or less I may consider it. Do you have any real ideas on the cost yet?

PS: In my opinion to be a PRO caliber event cash payouts are needed not just technical inspection and more track time. That is only making it a "National" level event verses a "Regional" level event.

Andy Bettencourt
12-18-2006, 11:16 PM
I appretiate your hard work and I hope your region appretiates the hype that has been created already.

If the entry fee is around $250 or less I may consider it. Do you have any real ideas on the cost yet?

[/b]

So mucho track time at MO and a double format and $250 is your threshold? What is the fee for the ARRC? Hopefully, as this event grows and we all cram into MO, sponsors and contingencies will follow.

StephenB
12-19-2006, 12:32 AM
If you go comparison shopping this is what you will find. However we really shouldn&#39;t be compairing it to the ARRC as the only similarity we have so far is that it will have preplanned technical inspections. Other than that it is a regional event that we WANT to be BIG. I figure the events value is probably more than the nearby venues due to track time and the track itself seems great. However we want to build this event to be something big and to do that we need to attract people to come. Other than some chatter on this forum why woud you go? There is no contingency, no publicity, nothing more than a double regional. If it becomes a restricted regional we will get more track time but to attract me you will need to have lot&#39;s of track time at a cheap price. I think $250 or at least close to that is very reasonable to market this event and get a big turnout. IF we get a big tunrout THEN contingency and publicity will come. IF we do not get a big turnout the event will dwindle away.

WGI double = $230
Nelson LedgesL double = $230 & $240 Not sure on the price difference?
NHIS double = $220 & $260 why the $40 price break... most likely to attract more attendance.
Summit Point double = $290
Beaver run double = $227
Pocono Double = $325 in 2005 / $300 in 2006 Why the price break? some say to increase the turnout but we lost a session for an enduro to be scheduled so the actual per lap price went up! Overall VERY poor attendance at this event.
WORGAMES double = $250 Not exactly sure what this is as the surver is down but it seems like an SCCA double at Mid Ohio...

FYI:
Entry for the SCCA National Championship Runnoffs that is aired on TV with contingeny and publicity is $300
NASA championship at Mid Ohiowith contingency and publicity Entry fee = $395
ARRC sprint with contingency and publicity = $250
ARRC PRO-IT with contingency and publicity = $250

dickita15
12-19-2006, 05:54 AM
Will all due respect Steven, the fuel bill to tow there alone will be $300. This is not a cheap weekend to do from a long distance. The entry fee is a much smaller concern that the quality of the event. I am much more likely to tow out for a double with plenty of practice time to learn this challenging track. Prize money is unrealistic for a first time event like this and the effort trying to raise a few hundred dollars for payouts is better spent making other part of the event excellent. Besides 5 years from now when this race has great stature what will it be worth to you to day you one the first one.

Greg Amy
12-19-2006, 06:58 AM
Will all due respect Steven, the fuel bill to tow there alone will be $300.[/b]

&#39;Zactly what I was thinking. As I&#39;ve said several times before, the number on the entry fee is such a SMALL percentage of total costs that it&#39;s prety much irrelevant...Increase the track time, raise the entry fee: matters not to me.

I do like how folks are talking about prize money, but you&#39;re forgetting one big factor: this is Club Racing. You know why roundy-round cars, and sprint cars, and Indy cars, and WoO and others have prize money? Cause there&#39;s REVENUE for the track. They pay money to entice quality competitors to show up &#39;cause it draws crowds. SCCA Club Racing does not draw crowds, thus it does not draw revenue, thus it does not pay competitors. How many of YOU guys have merchandising with your car number on coffee cups and T-shirts for sale at the track? That&#39;s a fact of club racing life, folks, and if you don&#39;t understand that, then you don&#39;t understand pro racing and you don&#39;t understand business.

Besides, if it DID pay money, enough to entice quality competition, then you&#39;d be complaining about all the high-dollar entrants coming in with $50,000 ITC cars.

Remember Milton Friedman&#39;s (RIP) famous quote: "There&#39;s no such thing as a free lunch."

They&#39;re going to put the event on, it&#39;s going to be fun, and you&#39;re either going to be there or you&#39;re going to suck.

Regardless, stop complaining.

Ed Funk
12-19-2006, 07:27 AM
&#39;Zactly what I was thinking. As I&#39;ve said several times before, the number on the entry fee is such a SMALL percentage of total costs that it&#39;s prety much irrelevant...Increase the track time, raise the entry fee: matters not to me.

I do like how folks are talking about prize money, but you&#39;re forgetting one big factor: this is Club Racing. You know why roundy-round cars, and sprint cars, and Indy cars, and WoO and others have prize money? Cause there&#39;s REVENUE for the track. They pay money to entice quality competitors to show up &#39;cause it draws crowds. SCCA Club Racing does not draw crowds, thus it does not draw revenue, thus it does not pay competitors. How many of YOU guys have merchandising with your car number on coffee cups and T-shirts for sale at the track? That&#39;s a fact of club racing life, folks, and if you don&#39;t understand that, then you don&#39;t understand pro racing and you don&#39;t understand business.

Besides, if it DID pay money, enough to entice quality competition, then you&#39;d be complaining about all the high-dollar entrants coming in with $50,000 ITC cars.

Remember Milton Friedman&#39;s (RIP) famous quote: "There&#39;s no such thing as a free lunch."

They&#39;re going to put the event on, it&#39;s going to be fun, and you&#39;re either going to be there or you&#39;re going to suck.

Regardless, stop complaining.
[/b]
Amen!! :114:

gran racing
12-19-2006, 08:18 AM
If it paid money, entry fees would need to be higher to cover the payouts. I agree with what others are saying and would rather have my entry fee going towards more track time. Although...I suppose I could consider paying a higher entry fee as a savings plan for after the race? :unsure:

I presonally am not very motivated by the types of payouts or continginces which have been provided in club racing. For the ARRC, that&#39;s an after thought for me and many others. When I&#39;m down there, I look to see what&#39;s available, not see what&#39;s avail. then decide if it&#39;s worth going down there. I do think it is very cool to have, but it&#39;s a bonus. We&#39;ve also had some Pro IT races in the N.E. with higher entry fees but that have payouts. I&#39;d rather not pay the extra $200 in entry fees for those races and put it towards doing another event.

In the club level, I&#39;m not so sure that having high payouts would be a good thing. For one thing, like Greg said, there would be more cars with a lot more money in them. The other aspect is how it would change the attitude of the event.

lateapex911
12-19-2006, 09:28 AM
Stephen I&#39;m confused why you chose $250...as your threshold, then listed abunch of much lesser events at crappy tracks that cost more. Huh?

Once you figure in the cost of tires, hotels, fuel, lost revenue, food, crew costs, race car consumables, and tow vehicle consumables, even if this was the MOST expensive double, it would add....wait for it...like 4% to the total nut....in other words, nothing. The entry fee is my least concern!

And I&#39;ll pass on any payout too, it might be fun down the road, but I never bank on anything like prize money or contingencies. They&#39;re great surprises when I get them, but in most normal seasons, they amount to a small part of the picture.

dj10
12-19-2006, 09:39 AM
We will not be "paying" anything but attention to how we you guys drive!

Todd [/b]

Why don&#39;t you invite the PRO IT up to MO for a event? BTW, why is the PRO IT only in the SE? Is this the only region that has a vision? Todd, you really have to be 3d in your thinking. Don&#39;t rule anything out especially with the money that is in Ohio.

R2 Racing
12-19-2006, 11:32 AM
Don&#39;t rule anything out especially with the money that is in Ohio.
[/b]
Yes, the money trees grew in fantastically this year. So pretty. <_<


The best races I&#39;ve ever been a part of had nothing to do with entry fee&#39;s, contingencies, or prize money. They had to do with the cars that showed up and the people that raced them. That&#39;s really all I care about. I just want another chance to run on the same track with a field of top-notch cars like we do at Atlanta in November. That&#39;s all. Asking for more than that, especially in the events first year, is just getting greedy, IMO. So give the racers track time, decent value, credibility, and the promise of a big, tough field at a world class race track, and they&#39;ll show up.

Remember, the ARRC is really nothing more than a restricted regional too. There&#39;s no big purses, no big boobed groupies, and no TV camera waiting to interview you. Heck, you can even race it on a Novice Permit. So why do we hold it as something more? Track time, decent value, credibility, and the promise of a big, tough field at a world class race track. Oh yea, and also so we can brag about it on the internet when we do well. B)

If I wanted to feel like a Pro with a big purse, I&#39;d build a Grand Am Cup car (and endure all of the added costs and headaches that come along with that).

Grumpa
12-19-2006, 01:13 PM
I have to agree with those who just want to race a strong field at a great venue. I crew for a FC guy and our most anticipated weekend was the regional at M-O two weeks prior to the Runoffs. The car count and talent there was a great yardstick to measure our progress from year to year. The run groups were 25-40 strong with the overwhelming majority of entrants having qualified for the Runoffs. Killer stuff.

I haven&#39;t raced M-O yet, but will be there for this race for the opportunity to race with a big (I hope!) ITC run group. No doubt it would be the biggest group I will see all year and I just can&#39;t pass up the opportunity to race a first time event and field like this. The money/contingencies will come as the event gains stature, but we as racers will have to support it from the start to make it happen. No grassroots event is born huge, it takes time and dedication to make it happen. I commend those who proposed the event to begin with, when all is said and done and the last combatant tows their steed from the arena on Sunday night, August 12th, I would pray that the organizers are very tired and satisfied with the weekend and formulating an even bigger event for &#39;08. See you there.

dj10
12-19-2006, 01:38 PM
If I wanted to feel like a Pro with a big purse, [/b]

1st of all, feeling like a Pro would only be a state of mind and has absoultly nothing to do with what I suggested. For your info the PRO IT series does not have big purses. The purse would cover gas money to and from the event, maybe. :114: Since this would be a restricted regional, why not invite the PRO IT? What&#39;s wrong with thinking alittle out of the box. It&#39;s easy, even a caveman can do it. B)

gran racing
12-19-2006, 01:59 PM
What is the purpose of "Pro" IT versus the standard IT as we know it? Why not just have another IT race?

RickyBobby
12-19-2006, 02:12 PM
What&#39;s wrong with thinking alittle out of the box. It&#39;s easy, even a caveman can do it. B)
[/b]

http://presurfer.meepzorp.com/graphics/cavemen.jpg

dj10
12-19-2006, 02:31 PM
What is the purpose of "Pro" IT versus the standard IT as we know it? Why not just have another IT race? [/b]



Maybe they make some money to cover some expenses? This is just a wild guess. ;)

Why don&#39;t you ask the SE Division about the prupose of PRO IT.

If you guys are so hell bent about NOT making expense money, why do you sign up for contingencies? Isn&#39;t this a form of race winnings that help cover your race expenses?

dickita15
12-19-2006, 04:41 PM
If you guys are so hell bent about NOT making expense money, why do you sign up for contingencies? Isn&#39;t this a form of race winnings that help cover your race expenses?
[/b]

It is not that we don’t like getting money it is just that the organizing region has a date at a world class track and want to put of a really cool race for IT. I don’t want them to think that we will not come without prize money. They are already taking a risk to give us something we want, lets no make it any harder.

dj10
12-19-2006, 07:18 PM
It is not that we don&#39;t like getting money it is just that the organizing region has a date at a world class track and want to put of a really cool race for IT. I don&#39;t want them to think that we will not come without prize money. They are already taking a risk to give us something we want, lets no make it any harder.
[/b]

Wow, I had no idea that I insinuated this AT ALL! This was not or even close to my intention. If there would be any contigencies or prize $ this would and would be just some icing on a very good cake.

TAC
12-19-2006, 10:29 PM
If we wander away from the true purpose of "Club Racing" then doesn&#39;t it become a job instead of a hobby?
I say hobby because we do it for the FUN of it. This is where my friends are, this is what I look forward to doing every off season. I work corners and watch you crazy drivers get yourselves in all kinds of trouble. LOL. I don&#39;t expect anything for it except the chance to get away from my everyday life for a weekend of watching race cars . To come home smelling like burnt rubber and exhaust fumes and SMILE! I don&#39;t think you can put a paycheck against that.

Todd

RSTPerformance
12-20-2006, 10:48 AM
for a couple days now I have been reading about the contingencies, and entry fees... and just didn&#39;t know how to reply, and still probably don&#39;t... lol

but, here goes...

I do think that Stephen showed some relevant info, at least compairing race costs, interesting.

Jake, 1 of 2 races at NHIS, 1 race at Summit and 1 race at Pocono are the only races out of the 9 "doubles" listed that are more xpensive. I would hardly argue that Summit is considered a "crappy track." You might not like Pocono, but I love that track, as I think it is one of the most unique tracks in the country. NHIS I am not a huge fan of, but you have to admit it is also one of the most Unique in the country. Mid-Ohio is another "real" road course and while unique, it also has a lot of similarities to other true road racing tracks. I do admit it is one of my favorite tracks that I have been to... probably second to Road Atlanta, but a very close second.

As for $250 I think that is a reasonable entry threshold, why? read further:

Dick with respect, I think your reply is based on "us" (Us being New Englanders and other long distance travelers). While the entry is one of our lowest expences, it is not for everyone. Despite what we may dream, most of the entrants will be locals, and we need to ensure that the locals will come out and play with us or the event will be a bust, even if they are not "top level" cars. IMO A lower entry/on track time ratio is essential to get high entry numbers.

Why do I say this? As a local racer here in New England I know that many people do look at entry fees, and I am sure that the local racers will also be doing the same How many of us have bitched about lime rock entries and refuse to go because of it? How successful is the "Cheep date" event at NHIS. How successful is the "track time is King" event at NHIS?

While I do agree that being a "restricted regional" means that it will draw extra entries no matter what the price, I do think that we want to maximize that total number. I want to see every local driver at the event!!! For me I guess I would suggest for the region that at this "new event" in reguards to entry is to be sure to keep it reasoable, even cheep if possible. Don&#39;t plan on "making money" this year, but be sure to break even. More racers will come as the years go on and then I am sure you will start making money!!! Thats it for me on entries!!! (wow that was drawn out, I hope I made sence :) )

As for contingencies... I am sure those will come in time. Cash payouts while nice are not necessary either at this time IMO.

now on to more important things... about the anouncer, is thier one? We need an anouncer at this event, and we need a "victory circle" with interviews... just for our ego&#39;s, even if we don&#39;t have any fans watching ;)

Hope all is well, and again thanks for the hard work to get this event rolling down the right track;

Raymond "I hope I have $$$ and a car come August 07!!!" Blethen

Andy Bettencourt
12-20-2006, 11:28 AM
Ray,

You may like Pocono, but there is no arguing it presents nothing for the racer. It&#39;s a 5-turn go-kart track with a chicane thrown in. Those two &#39;unique&#39; (?) pieces connecting two HUGE drag races that require no skill and all HP. NHIS is a nice local track that we are lucky to have but in terms of quality? It&#39;s a low-speed Roval. Some like it, some hate it. It couldn&#39;t be more opposite of some of the permier road racing tracks in the country.

The point on the entry fees is that they ARE such a small portion of the overall racing budget - when you factor in transportaion costs, racecar maintenance costs, tires, gas, food, licensing etc. many people whined about LRP (because increased costs do stink) but it kept nobody away. I am betting the cost of gas for tow rigs and racecars was 100X more a factor this year in lowered car counts than anything.

Yes, cost to track time ratios are important, but when you factor in ALL the money involved, the % get way less important. It&#39;s big picture stuff.

Having said all of that, I think everyone will be real pleased with the plan these guys have cooked up for this event. If it gets approved, look for about 110 minutes of RACING time...and an opportunity to get some track time before the event.

Do the math on those numbers...even the best Double up here looks like this:

Cheap Date Double: 2 - 15min quals and 2 - 30 minute races. That is 30 minutes of qual time and 60 minutes of race time. At $220, that is $3.67 a minute of race time, $2.44 a minute of track time.

To equal your bogey, the entry fee could be $341.60 for track time at Mid-Ohio. I almost guanantee the race time cost is lower at this event than almost any you have run. (Hint - NERRC Triple)

Again, would that $91.60 keep you away given all the other money you have to spend to attend? ($341.60 - $250) Nope.

For comparison, you paid $3.68 a minute for track time and $10.17 a minute for race time at the NARRC Runoffs. The Pocono Double? You paid $7.89 a minute for race time...You paid $8.00 per minute of race time at the Opening Day Regional at NHIS. See the point? When you actually do the math, even though the numbers are ugly, the significance of those numbers is small when taken in context.

Having blabbered all that, this event will produce some of the best cost/race ratios. It should also produce some great racing and some great inter-IT rivalies and friendships. Congrats to all.

gran racing
12-20-2006, 11:49 AM
Andy, you&#39;re viewing this from your perspective and not necessarily everyone elses. There are many different levels of budgets and additional expenses. Your additional expenses do not equal what others pay (many lower, some higher). I think Ray had a good point about not increasing the entry fee too much in order to ensure the event doesn&#39;t lose local interest (something I didn&#39;t think about). Yes, LPR&#39;s entrance fee has kept me from doing some events even if I were to calculate the cost per second on track and have that equate to more than some other events. There&#39;s more to the "formula" than that, otherwise no one would do Solo / Autocross events. :)

RSTPerformance
12-20-2006, 12:05 PM
Andy-


Thanks for the reply... as Dave said it is good feedback as per your opinion as well as many of the people on this board... I do know though MANY people look at only the entry fee rather than towing fees, maintenance, tires and what not. Be it wright or wrong in your mind it does happen.

As for the cost per minute... Double my expence cause I usually miss half the dam sessions... lol :)

Raymond :Still Smiling" Blethen

lateapex911
12-20-2006, 12:14 PM
Andy, you&#39;re viewing this from your perspective and not necessarily everyone elses. There are many different levels of budgets and additional expenses. Your additional expenses do not equal what others pay (many lower, some higher). I think Ray had a good point about not increasing the entry fee too much in order to ensure the event doesn&#39;t lose local interest (something I didn&#39;t think about). Yes, LPR&#39;s entrance fee has kept me from doing some events even if I were to calculate the cost per second on track and have that equate to more than some other events. There&#39;s more to the "formula" than that, otherwise no one would do Solo / Autocross events. :) [/b]


Ahhh..be careful Mr. point of view, LOL, or you&#39;ll incur the wrath of autocrossers, many of whom will tell you that they have no desire to go road racing. Case in point: Paul Kozlak, multi time National Champ autocrosser, tried roadracing....wasn&#39;t a fan, sold the car and went back to the cones.

To each his own. But while I&#39;m not going to focus on the entry fee, I do see the point of wanting to keep the entry reasonable so as not to discourage locals.

But....even if I were a local, if I heard about an event that was really catering to IT, was going to bring in quality drivers from far away, offered huge track time, AND was on one of the top four tracks in the country, I doubt I&#39;d worry about an extra $25 or $50 bucks in the entry.

(My top tracks: Laguna Seca, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio, and possibly Road America.)
As for Pocono, that place is a wasteland of ugliyness and boredom...I doubt I&#39;d waste the time to go there if the entry was $10. But thats just me.)

My advice to the organizers:
-Make the entry sufficient so that the region will want to do the event again.
-Make the event unique and legitimate enough so that racers will want to return. (Great format, lots of track time and legitimate teardowns)

worry about fancy stuff as you can, but not at the expense of the prime mandates. We can wait for the fancy stuff until next year or later.

greendot
12-20-2006, 12:15 PM
The old expression about getting nickle and dimed to death comes to mind in this discussion of entry fees, gas costs, etc, etc.
Any one item may not be a deal breaker for some, but start adding it up (something NO racer should ever do :026: ) and the price tag gets too high.

Andy does make a case for more participation in ITB / ITC though. Your cost per minute goes down. :D

tom91ita
12-20-2006, 12:33 PM
Your cost per minute goes down. :D[/b]

but since we are sometimes lapped, our costs / mile could be higher! B)

for me, the fuel costs are what got out of whack! i picked a fine time to get a larger tow vehicle/trailer!

gran racing
12-20-2006, 12:36 PM
Ahhh..be careful Mr. point of view, LOL, or you&#39;ll incur the wrath of autocrossers, many of whom will tell you that they have no desire to go road racing. Case in point: Paul Kozlak, multi time National Champ autocrosser, tried roadracing....wasn&#39;t a fan, sold the car and went back to the cones.[/b]

Jake, that was my point. ;)

IPRESS
12-20-2006, 12:55 PM
MO organizers,
It is very nice of you to seek our opinions. Butch did that with ARRC. I would suggest that you take a great deal of this info with a grain of salt as topics on this BB can get :dead_horse: worked over to death. Do your best and after the first shot at the event ask for feedback. As with most groups it will be hard to get a unanimous answer here, but some of the ideas will be winners.

With all that said I can&#39;t make it unless my daughter says I can miss her wedding that weekend!

Good Luck, I am sure it will be a great event.
Mac

dj10
12-20-2006, 02:24 PM
Two of the people I like to read is Chris Ludwig, post #127 & Greg Amy, post 140, as well as some othere thinkers. Both of these people are capable and do think out of the so called Box. I can agree with both of these peole are typing but I may not totally agree with them completely, it&#39;s nice to see people thinking in 3D.

I disagree with Greg about any pay outs, if any, the Cinncy region might have, if the really wanted to try and market the event. My 2 examples are #1. NASA&#39;s pay outs & marketing skills were the only thing going for that organization, IMO. #2, is the PRO IT that runs at the ARRC. The payout is not much but it is something. Anything is better than reaching into your own pocket, no matter how much money you have. I want everyone to realize that I&#39;m not complaning or bitching. These are just statements and my opinions.

I am curious and so far no one has explained to me how and why PROIT has caught on in the SE and not anywhere else? With racing expenses going higher and higher you would think someone might be coming up with contigency money or some other ideas. Given the right marketing, cheap rates on Speedvision during murdercross or the other B rated movies they show, how does anyone know if you can draw to a high profile regional race?

Andy Bettencourt
12-20-2006, 02:49 PM
Andy, you&#39;re viewing this from your perspective and not necessarily everyone elses. There are many different levels of budgets and additional expenses. Your additional expenses do not equal what others pay (many lower, some higher). I think Ray had a good point about not increasing the entry fee too much in order to ensure the event doesn&#39;t lose local interest (something I didn&#39;t think about). Yes, LPR&#39;s entrance fee has kept me from doing some events even if I were to calculate the cost per second on track and have that equate to more than some other events. There&#39;s more to the "formula" than that, otherwise no one would do Solo / Autocross events. :) [/b]

Dave,

What I am saying is that the entry fee is a small portion of the budget, no matter the size of the budget. This stuff is expensive. My examples were to point out that what Raymond was using as a ceiling ($250) is not the way to look at things. Yes, perception is reality, but when you actually understand what you (you, me or anybody) spend over the course of a year to do this, $50 here or there is small potatos when you analyze the debit as a whole. Obviously I am talking about someone who is shooting for a Regional Championship like Raymond, not the once-in-a-while hobbiest.

It all rooted from his $250 comment...If this was $300 to do, and he stayed away because of $50 - knowing all the other associated costs to make the trip...I think that would be seeing just trees in front of you, no forrest.

RSTPerformance
12-20-2006, 03:07 PM
Just to be clear I probably might not (especialy with the travel) care about $250 or $300 and would probably still go. I might go wow that is expensive, but suck it up. I do think that others will say "enough is enough this is getting to expensive" or "This race isn&#39;t for me as I am not a top dog contender, which this race is obviosly geared to." Those are "quotes" that I think we want to avoid so that we get all levels of competition, newbies and "pro" caliber alike. It is a fine balance of demands, and a tough thing to judge given that most of the contenders probably will not or do not even view this or any other boards. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion on reactions we could see.

Butch Kummer
12-20-2006, 04:25 PM
I am curious and so far no one has explained to me how and why PROIT has caught on in the SE and not anywhere else? [/b]

I&#39;m not sure that Pro-IT has caught on anywhere other than Atlanta Region. There is the CCPS (Carolina Cup Pro Series) that is very similar in concept, plus the ECR also has end-of-year payouts as well but features races of 90 minutes or more. I&#39;m not sure if the FES (Florida Enduro Series) has payouts or not, but I do know that no one has quit their day job and is now making a living driving any of these series. :D

Pro-IT is an Atlanta Region series, has been around at least ten years and was originally formed to provide extra car count (i.e. - entry fees) at our National events. It started out averaging 50 cars per event when the IT boom first hit here in SEDIV, but over the last few year the number has dropped to a 30-35 car per race average. Except for the ARRC, the field is largely made up of local (Atlanta area) drivers. We added SM a couple of years ago to bolster the numbers and for 2007 I&#39;m looking to add ITO and ITU as well (our catch-all classes that give the non-SCCA cars a place to run in Atlanta Region events).

As far as why the concept has not caught in other areas, I can only imagine it has to do with the drivers of the traditional classes being "reluctant" (that&#39;s putting it mildly) to accept providing additional track time for a select number of drivers (as evidenced by the discussions for the 2007 MARRS). We face the same criticism here in Atlanta, but so far (I think) we&#39;ve been able to provide an adequate balance of track time for the IT and non-IT drivers. There may be some non-IT folks that stay away because of the perception of reduced track time, but would enough of them start showing up to more than offset the financial loss should we drop the Pro-IT series? We also have National drivers that gripe about sharing the weekend with IT cars even though they still get the GCR-mandated 45 minutes of practice/qualifying time. Attendance at our National events remains pretty constant (and actually increased a bit in 2006), so it must not be TOO much of a detriment to them.

Butch Kummer
Atlanta Region Competition Director

dj10
12-20-2006, 05:24 PM
I&#39;m not sure that Pro-IT has caught on anywhere other than Atlanta Region. There is the CCPS (Carolina Cup Pro Series) that is very similar in concept, plus the ECR also has end-of-year payouts as well but features races of 90 minutes or more. I&#39;m not sure if the FES (Florida Enduro Series) has payouts or not, but I do know that no one has quit their day job and is now making a living driving any of these series. :D

Pro-IT is an Atlanta Region series, has been around at least ten years and was originally formed to provide extra car count (i.e. - entry fees) at our National events. It started out averaging 50 cars per event when the IT boom first hit here in SEDIV, but over the last few year the number has dropped to a 30-35 car per race average. Except for the ARRC, the field is largely made up of local (Atlanta area) drivers. We added SM a couple of years ago to bolster the numbers and for 2007 I&#39;m looking to add ITO and ITU as well (our catch-all classes that give the non-SCCA cars a place to run in Atlanta Region events).

As far as why the concept has not caught in other areas, I can only imagine it has to do with the drivers of the traditional classes being "reluctant" (that&#39;s putting it mildly) to accept providing additional track time for a select number of drivers (as evidenced by the discussions for the 2007 MARRS). We face the same criticism here in Atlanta, but so far (I think) we&#39;ve been able to provide an adequate balance of track time for the IT and non-IT drivers. There may be some non-IT folks that stay away because of the perception of reduced track time, but would enough of them start showing up to more than offset the financial loss should we drop the Pro-IT series? We also have National drivers that gripe about sharing the weekend with IT cars even though they still get the GCR-mandated 45 minutes of practice/qualifying time. Attendance at our National events remains pretty constant (and actually increased a bit in 2006), so it must not be TOO much of a detriment to them.

Butch Kummer
Atlanta Region Competition Director [/b]

Butch, thanks for helping me understand this. It might not mean a hill of beans, but I want to take my hat off to the Atlanta Region for their leadership & intuitive thinking for PRO IT. I just wished I wouldn&#39;t have to travel so far for your events. I beleive this idea you guys came up with is great and I could only hope that some of the other regions would have the same insight. I&#39;m sure this is more work for you, I can only hope your members appriciate it. Have you ever tried to do some local marketing for your events and have you any success?

I hope I&#39;m able to get to a couple of your events in 07.

Keep up the good work

Dan

"Build it and they will come"

TAC
12-20-2006, 08:05 PM
I doubt you will see anything run at Mid-O under $300 this year. A regular double regional sponsored by SCCA with 7 race groups at any race track in the country will get you a max of 1 hour 30 minute of track time per group. Our proposal is for 2 hrs. 30 minutes per race group for the weekend.

Todd Cholmondeley
Cincinnati Race Chair

gran racing
12-20-2006, 08:25 PM
Todd,
Let&#39;s leave the NASA Championship out of this discussion. They did a heck of a job promoting, getting companies to sponsor the event, make it a family event (some of the other stuff they had going on for kids, and crew members was awesome!). :happy204: Had I not wrecked my car prior to that, I was going to attend for sure.

Although I was giving Andy a hard time (I understand where you were going with your point, Ray&#39;s point, yet was being a bit of a PITA :( ), as long as you keep it to what locals are used to paying you should be fine. At the same point, I&#39;ll admit that I look at the entry fee and don&#39;t <insert choose not to> look at the entire costs all too often.

StephenB
12-21-2006, 12:23 AM
If you read back to TODDS post this is what he said which has DRASTICALLY CHANGED after my participation in this thread about prices and input.



To All,

Yes we are looking at making this a Restricted Double Regional. 5 race groups. Lots of seat time. The proposal is for 4 sessions over the weekend culminating into 150 minutes of track time per race group. Or we stay with a Double regional and go back to more mixed classes and at the max. 7 race groups. Seat time drops off to about 90 minutes for the weekend. But we restore champ and division series points.
Thats pretty much our two options going into January.

Todd[/b]

I then mentioned that IF it was a PRO event we should have CASH payouts to make it a real PRO event. Not just call it a pro event so we can say it is. If you want to call it a pro event then to me that sounds like you want to attract Pro teams and drivers. To do this Money talks. To be honest I wouldn&#39;t attend an expensive PRO event. I never have as I can&#39;t compete at that level and I can&#39;t afford to compete at that level. I prefer the amatuer level hyped up events like the ARRC with contingencies. The Pro events they have had at LRP that have had cash payouts are very expensive and I have never attended. I never said I wanted cash payouts if it was going to stay amatuer and to be honest I prefer no payouts to keep the cost down!

I like the Idea of a double and yes $250 is a reasonable cost as I said. I NEVER said it was my limit or ceiling this was what ANDY said my ceiling was. again jsut to clarify I did use the word REASONABLE for both competitor and region. I also mentiond that I thought the "value was worth more" stating that our goal should be high attendance, I&#39;m talking sold out fields of 50 cars, lets get SCCA&#39;s attention and show the whole racing comunity a great event! In my opinion if you want to attract people from far away were the cost is high for travel (Like andy and greg and others have said) you need to make the entry a no-brainer and make people say I NEED to race at that event. Not only do I get track time, It&#39;s cheaper than events around me, it has a huge feild of cars, and it&#39;s on an awesome track. I would probably attend at $50 even $75 more but anything after that would take convincing, looking at the preregistration list and PB&J. (If you hit $400 I am definetly out.) I&#39;m not sure why everyone feels the need to rip me apart about $250 as I clearly stated normal prices for the surrounding tracks mostly within $50 of that price. I also gave you prices that demonstrated a $50.00 difference in price at the same track with a substantial % less in attendance. I&#39;m sure someone has the real statistics on that and since several on this board love to find loopholes and quotes I am not even going to try and guess as that will come back and haunt me. I still think a No-Brainer price is $250 (And if you feel the need to quote me saying that I said "I MAY attend at $250 or less" that is because that is a no-brainer price in my mind and now all I have to do is convince the Girl that we are vacationing in Ohio because I would NEED to go race at that price)

A VERY small % of people post here and I think we all have different views including the silent lurkers here. I am probably in the minority on this board or even in our entire community as I do not live and budget my life around racing like several common posters here. If you feel like ripping me apart because I look at entry fees as a deciding factor feel free, If you feel like you need to point out the per mile or per Hr cost than fine do so. I look at how much money the entry fee is going to cost me and if can I afford that. The costs to maintain my car I do not associate with a particular event. And the trip and all costs including time off of work associated with the trip itself come out of my vacation budget so NONE of them honestly matter to me. We take our Vacation money and treat everything other than my track time as a vacation together. Kinda like going to Montreal to watch F1 only I would be going to watch an IT race. And yes I did attend my first ARRC as a spectator in 2000 then later decided I could spend the extra $250 to participate and still spectate. I would not have participated if the entry was $400.


I honestly don&#39;t mean to offend anyone as I just mentioned a suggestion to increase participation #&#39;s. I&#39;ll check back in a few days so if I don&#39;t reply to your concerns on my judgment or opinions don&#39;t get upset, I&#39;ll respond when I have time so please have fun and try to enjoy yourselvs Its almost Christmas!

Stephen

Andy Bettencourt
12-21-2006, 09:00 AM
I like the Idea of a double and yes $250 is a reasonable cost as I said. I NEVER said it was my limit or ceiling this was what ANDY said my ceiling was. again jsut to clarify I did use the word REASONABLE for both competitor and region. [/b]

Stephen, this is what you said:


If the entry fee is around $250 or less I may consider it.[/b]

When you say &#39;or less&#39;, you have given us the impression that anything over $250 you won&#39;t even &#39;consider&#39;. Regardless, the point was more about looking at the racing efforts we all put together on a global basis, not in an individual miopic sense. No offense intended, your program is your program. Nobody is ripping you apart, just trying to convince you that this could be a case of &#39;penny wise, dollar foolish&#39;. YMMV.

dj10
12-21-2006, 10:16 AM
Stephen,

Nobody&#39;s ripping you apart for anything you type here, or at least I won&#39;t. :114:

I had typed about inviting the PRO IT up to race with this event. Just like ARRC, it does NOT drive up the events costs because like @ ARRC, it has seperate race fees and only the people that race it would benefit from the race as well as incur the expenses. This would not effect you even if they did run it. From all indications it does not look like they even would entertain the idea.

Todd did mention that MO has rasied their prices and the cost maybe $300.00 for the IT event. Since I was paying between 275 and 290 last year, it shouldn&#39;t break my piggy bank. There should be a lot of seat time with this.

R2 Racing
12-21-2006, 12:41 PM
$300 for that much track time at Mid Ohio? Fine.


Now lets move on please and talk about something more important, like me winning ITA. :smilie_pokal:

dj10
12-21-2006, 12:54 PM
like me winning ITA. :smilie_pokal: [/b]

You better talk to Jon, Joe or Greg. I got my own problems to deal with.

Dave Burchfield
12-21-2006, 07:14 PM
Kevin,

You coming down this way again in the next couple of months? I have this cold one here waiting for you.

Dave :biggrinsanta:

TAC
12-21-2006, 08:07 PM
Hi guys, though you would like to look at this another way. This is the PROPOSAL as it stands with the Race Committee. and to be presented to the board in January.

Saturday morning 30 minute qualifying all groups.

Saturday Afternoon 1st race 45 minutes all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.

Sunday Morning 30 minute race all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.


Sunday Afternoon 45 minute race all groups ( Overall champ crowned for each class down through a yet to be determined place) ( Say 10th???) Plus, Top Three each class Trophy.

"Top Three trophies" each class each race. may actually be Gold, Silver and Bronze medals. ( Repeat winners will have plenty of hardware to show off with. ) LOL

Points system ( TBA) but all FOUR sessions count towards the overall. Each class.

How does that look?

Todd

dj10
12-21-2006, 08:46 PM
Hi guys, though you would like to look at this another way. This is the PROPOSAL as it stands with the Race Committee. and to be presented to the board in January.

Saturday morning 30 minute qualifying all groups.

Saturday Afternoon 1st race 45 minutes all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.

Sunday Morning 30 minute race all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.


Sunday Afternoon 45 minute race all groups ( Overall champ crowned for each class down through a yet to be determined place) ( Say 10th???) Plus, Top Three each class Trophy.

"Top Three trophies" each class each race. may actually be Gold, Silver and Bronze medals. ( Repeat winners will have plenty of hardware to show off with. ) LOL

Points system ( TBA) but all FOUR sessions count towards the overall. Each class.

How does that look?

Todd
[/b]

How do you qualify for Sundays 30 min race? Is your starting position from your finish on Sat, or you Qualifying on Sat?

Looks like a lot of seat time. Are we using the club & pro course?

Andy Bettencourt
12-21-2006, 08:51 PM
Typically it is your fast lap from Saturday afternoons race. Sunday mornings race serves as a qualifier for Sunday afternoon. Each race (individual) has to have a qualifier per the Sanction rules. If this is operating under two sanctions for the two races that is.

TAC
12-21-2006, 09:00 PM
Andy,

You are correct. We are still talking but Club course is winning.

Todd

StephenB
12-22-2006, 01:24 AM
That sounds great! I really really like the fact that it is a timed race and not a certain number of laps. It keeps the scheduling much easier and predictable to plan your day. And I can stick a stove timer in my car and not loose track of how much time I have left. I always get confused in the car trying to count laps after about lap 4 :) I wish all regionals went to that instead of saying you will get a 15 lap race. It would help stay on schedule with so many groups crammed into 1 day.


Thanks fo rthe update,
Stephen

R2 Racing
12-22-2006, 01:43 AM
Kevin,

You coming down this way again in the next couple of months? I have this cold one here waiting for you.

Dave :biggrinsanta:
[/b]
I sure am. Either February or April this year; haven&#39;t decided yet.

That schedule looks pretty cool to me. It seems like a lot of track time and it&#39;ll be interesting to see how the scoring system will work out.

Bob Burns
12-22-2006, 05:24 AM
Interesting thread.

For those of you who don&#39;t know me, here&#39;s part of the long, boring story of my SCCA life: I have dabbled in IT since the late 80&#39;s. Back then, when IT was young, I saw some inconsistencies in the rules and wrote the National Office about them. The result was that I was asked to serve on the newly-formed IT Ad Hoc Committee in 1990. I became Chairman of that committee in 1994. Later I moved to the AS Advisory Committee, then to the Comp Board (sorry, CRB) where I served for four years. I drove a few IT races in an ITA VW GTI (A2, 8-valve, they were in ITA back then) in 1991 and then purchased an ITC Rabbit which I raced a few times at IRP, Grattan, and the old Gateway in the mid 1990&#39;s. I have been an SCCA Club Racing steward since 1993. I&#39;ve been Chief Steward for several Regionals and Nationals at IRP, Mid Ohio, and Gingerman. And I&#39;ve been a Tech Steward and Operating Steward at the Runoffs. I say all of this not to impress you with my background or to imply that I have any special insight, only to suggest that I have some passing familiarity with the IT rules and with managing big events from an operations and rules enforcement perspective.

I think this IT Festival at Mid Ohio has merit. Mid Ohio is one of the premier tracks in the country and it presents some unique competitive challenges to the driver and set-up engineer. And, it&#39;s easy for an organizing region of a regional at Mid Ohio to look at the entry list (typically heavily weighted towards IT) along with the cost of racing at Mid Ohio and conclude that maybe an IT-centric event would draw more entries thus making the bottom line more palatable for the region.

I saw a couple of comments in this thread about this race counting for the Great Lakes Division/Area 4 Regional Championship Series. I believe the series rules require that series events include all series classes. An event which bars some classes from competing probably can&#39;t be part of the series.

I like the idea of creative formats, but I think the suggested race lengths may be a bit too long. The ITC lap record at Mid Ohio is a 1:48. Simple math says that a 45-minute race for those guys would be about 25 laps. That&#39;s 5 laps and 11 miles longer than the Runoffs races. For a race in August, I&#39;d be a bit concerned about driver fatigue because I&#39;m guessing most of you guys are not used to racing that long. But, if everybody knows this going in, then everybody&#39;s in the same boat.

Because this will be a Restricted Regional under the SCCA sanctioning rules, you can pretty much roll your own format. I like the idea of a couple of short qualifying sessions so that the guys new to the track have an opportunity to wash, rinse, repeat before things start getting serious. Follow those qualifying sessions with short races on Saturday. The finishing positions from the Saturday races could be used to set the grid for longer Sunday races.

How about an enduro to finish the weekend? There have been a few enduros run at Mid Ohio in the past, but it seems like they were always crammed into a regular Double Regional weekend. With the restricted event being considered, a 2- or 3-hour enduro would be possible.

Tech is obviously a big issue. From reading between the lines of what the Cincinnati people have posted here, it sounds like Tim and Bobbi Ross are supportive of this race from a Tech standpoint. They are both good, competetent Scrutineers and I trust their judgement. What made Runoffs Tech at Mid Ohio work was the big tent which provided plenty of space to do teardowns. There&#39;s one thing you have to consider about Tech--our rules and procedures don&#39;t normally allow for your competitors to know what you are doing with your car. That&#39;s why Tech is supposed to be an "eyes-only" affair. If a guy&#39;s car is found to be non-compliant, the only official public statement is that the car is "go" or "no-go". The extent of the rules infraction is generally not made public. On the other hand, if the organizers, stewards, and scrutineers go into this event with an "open hood" policy like is used at the Solo Nationals, we can find ways to make that happen under the rules.

All of the points about teardowns are valid. I would prefer to not do engine teardowns, but that&#39;s the only way to get to the truth. Runoffs teardowns are invasive and the competitor is left with box of parts at the end. Non-invasive devices like the Whistler seem to have inconsistent results. Unfortunately, the time constraints of a two-day weekend force us to find quick answers, but the IT rules, particularly with regard to camshafts, don&#39;t provide quick answers. This will require more thought. Rulz iz rulz and a steward can get into hot water by not enforcing them. On the other hand, my philosophy as a Chief Steward is that the penalty should fit the infraction.

I don&#39;t know how much of an issue doctored fuel is in IT. Fortunately, fuel testing is getting fairly consistent at a National level. On the other hand, I have some strong opinions about the validity of our dielectric constant rules that are probably best left for another conversation. The reagent testing, however, is pretty conclusive.

Starting on the back stretch. Wow. I never cared for it at the Runoffs, but it does change the nature of the racing and it&#39;s almost a necessity with a big field at Mid Ohio. It requires some Pace Car juggling to keep the fields in check and it does require more Starters.

I&#39;d like to see this event happen. The ARRC has been very successful for Atlanta Region. An old race promoter once told me that it takes about three years for a new event to prove itself. It sounds like Cincinnati Region is taking a long view of this event and that&#39;s A Good Thing. It may not work out the first year, but there is great potential.

Bob...

JLawton
12-22-2006, 06:49 AM
Hi guys, though you would like to look at this another way. This is the PROPOSAL as it stands with the Race Committee. and to be presented to the board in January.

Saturday morning 30 minute qualifying all groups.

Saturday Afternoon 1st race 45 minutes all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.

Sunday Morning 30 minute race all groups. Top Three each class Trophy.
Sunday Afternoon 45 minute race all groups ( Overall champ crowned for each class down through a yet to be determined place) ( Say 10th???) Plus, Top Three each class Trophy.

"Top Three trophies" each class each race. may actually be Gold, Silver and Bronze medals. ( Repeat winners will have plenty of hardware to show off with. ) LOL

Points system ( TBA) but all FOUR sessions count towards the overall. Each class.

How does that look?

Todd
[/b]


That looks great!! Thanks for all the hard work!!

lateapex911
12-22-2006, 10:58 AM
Andy,

You are correct. We are still talking but Club course is winning.

Todd [/b]

Club course?? But why?? :( :( :(

I really think the pro course will produce better racing, and thats what it&#39;s all about. There are pleny of other areas at MO that are curvy and technical.

R2 Racing
12-22-2006, 11:14 AM
I have a question for the guys who have never been to Mid Ohio before. Hypothetically speaking, would you rather have two 15 minute or one 30 minute qualifying session?

Personally, I think I&#39;d rather have two sessions so I could tweak on set-up a little bit, but I could see how others might want to just run a bunch of laps in a single longer session.

dj10
12-22-2006, 11:20 AM
Club course?? But why?? :( :( :(

I really think the pro course will produce better racing, and thats what it&#39;s all about. There are pleny of other areas at MO that are curvy and technical.
[/b]

Yea Jake, I can&#39;t believe this either! Other regions run the pro course and have a lot of success. I can&#39;t believe there are so many afraid of a little change. Variety is the spice of life, just maybe not in this case. <_<

Greg Amy
12-22-2006, 11:20 AM
You are correct. We are still talking but Club course is winning.
[/b]

Pro course. You can run the club course anytime; make this event stand out even more.

dj10
12-22-2006, 11:23 AM
I have a question for the guys who have never been to Mid Ohio before. Hypothetically speaking, would you rather have two 15 minute or one 30 minute qualifying session?

Personally, I think I&#39;d rather have two sessions so I could tweak on set-up a little bit, but I could see how others might want to just run a bunch of laps in a single longer session. [/b]



Kevin has a point, if your by yourself 2- 15 min sessions are better, if you have a crew, 30 mins would be fine for tweaking.

Andy Bettencourt
12-22-2006, 11:26 AM
But two 15 minute sessions does not equal one 30 minute session. You have to take into account swap over time for all the run groups. Would probably end up two 10-12 minute qualifiers.

Bob Burns
12-22-2006, 11:47 AM
Andy is correct that more sessions means less overall track time because of the turn-over time between sessions. There are ways to address that. For one, you can make it clear to the competitors that some session breaks will be short and some will be longer. For instance, what we did at the Runoffs for qualifying sessions was make the breaks 5, 5, and 15 minutes. If a car could be stuffed in a safe place during the short breaks, that&#39;s what we did and then picked them up during a long break. As long as your operating stewards, F&C, and emergency workers are on the ball and playing from the same book, you can make this work and still stay on time.

Oh, time is an issue at Mid Ohio. In the past, the track has charged extra for going past 5pm with an absolute drop-dead time of 6pm.

How many race groups are we talking about? I once fiddled around with a National race schedule that had 9 race groups with practice, qualifying, and races over two days. It wasn&#39;t pretty. Eight groups is about the maximum for a two-day weekend using National racing track time rules.

Bob...

tom91ita
12-22-2006, 12:09 PM
could consider the nasa methods for turnovers with cars taking track out at one end while coming on course at the other with a double yellow till the first group is off. i do think that this is quicker but not necessarily for between races. then i like the traditional pre-grid areas.

kevin, others that have done this? what do you think just for qualifying?

i like the idea of two shorter sessions rather than one long one.

and i am one of the sticks in the mud that wants the club course just because i like it better. if i can make it to this event, it will be as more to meet people and have a good time and get mid-ohio track time than it will be to race for the win. let&#39;s face it, there are more "losers" than winners at any race.

but fun can be had by all!

Dave Burchfield
12-22-2006, 12:14 PM
Bob,

Those of us who know you really appreciate your well thought comments. It is people like you adding your input who will help make this event a success. Your perspective is always considered valuable.

Merry Christmas!


Kevin,

I&#39;ll be here through February. Ron Sharp arrives in a few days and others to follow. Dorcy usually is around a few times. It is a good time.

Dave Burchfield
12-22-2006, 12:31 PM
Something to consider from someone who has worked as a course marshall for club and proevents.......

During long sessions, if a car runs off into the trap at the keyhole, we go double yellow until a crew can get the car out and safe. Cars are in the trap at the keyhole far more often when using the PRO course rather than the CLUB course.

So figure at least 3 laps for every time someone runs off at the Keyhole. As a competitor, I will cast my vote for the maximum amount of green flag condition as is possible.

dj10
12-22-2006, 01:32 PM
Something to consider from someone who has worked as a course marshall for club and proevents.......

During long sessions, if a car runs off into the trap at the keyhole, we go double yellow until a crew can get the car out and safe. Cars are in the trap at the keyhole far more often when using the PRO course rather than the CLUB course.

So figure at least 3 laps for every time someone runs off at the Keyhole. As a competitor, I will cast my vote for the maximum amount of green flag condition as is possible. [/b]

I beleive this IF your talking about GT1 or AS regional drivers. It drivers have much better brakes and know how to use them. ;)

Dave Burchfield
12-22-2006, 02:33 PM
delete

TAC
12-22-2006, 10:27 PM
Important upcoming Dates,

January 8th Race Committee discusses the Performance Driving X-perience to be held on August 10th and how to best serve new students AND competition drivers coming for the race weekend.

January 16th Race Committee presents the proposal of the PDX, I.T. / SPEC festival to the Cincinnati Board for approval.

Merry Christmas,

Todd C.
Cincinnati Race Chair

gran racing
12-23-2006, 07:25 AM
It will be very interesting to see how the PDX event is handled since I&#39;m sure there will be many of us racers who will be seaking to enter the event for track time. I&#39;m sure you&#39;ve had this discussion with Butch, but the ARRC test & tune day prior to the event has very large turn outs.

TAC
12-23-2006, 09:46 AM
For those of you who have never heard of a (PDX) it is a sanctioned SCCA event similar to driver schools that other clubs run. We are still working with PDX 1 which has three groups. Novice w/ instructors. Intermediate ( no instructor needed while on track), and a instructors group which can take their own cars out. The rules state passing in designated areas only with a point from car being passed. The whole day would be under the same PDX rules. So it would technically be a Test and Tune for those competitors that we can include.

Also for those of you who have read the discussions on " Pro Course vs. Club Course". Mid-Ohio has two configurations approaching the " Key Hole" if you watch Pro Events televised from Mid-Ohio the configuration used is called the " Pro course ". Basically they bypass a set of corners that goes "Right, Left, Right" as you enter the "Key Hole". If you have any race tape&#39;s of the Run-offs from 1994 till 2004 you will see the " Club Course" in action.

Todd

gran racing
12-23-2006, 10:39 AM
Todd, I know this is a silly question but I have to ask. You&#39;ll be using the same course on the PDX day that will be used during the race weekend, correct?

Have you thought about doing more than 3 groups? Any idea how many instructors you&#39;ll be using? I&#39;m sure many others have the same feeling as I do: if I&#39;m making the trek out there, might as well do the PDX day in addition to the race event.

TAC
12-23-2006, 10:58 AM
Yes we are planning to use the same course configuration for the PDX. The instructors group is in flux due to not knowing how many novice students will sign up . We anticipate that there will be room in the group for additional instructors . Also we are looking into the rules and time to see if we can add a group. The PDX Chairman should have all that info to us by the Jan. 8th Race Committee meeting. Stay Tuned!

Todd

Edwin Ho
12-26-2006, 12:43 PM
Typically it is your fast lap from Saturday afternoons race. Sunday mornings race serves as a qualifier for Sunday afternoon. Each race (individual) has to have a qualifier per the Sanction rules. If this is operating under two sanctions for the two races that is.
[/b]

Just as another point of information. At Waterford Hills, we run four sessions per group per weekend. On Sat, there is a qualifying session and a race. Race finishing position sets the grid for Sun morning race. Fastest lap from Sat & Sun races sets the grid for the Feature. Oh yeah, also throw in two extra groups on Sat for open- and closed-wheel co-driver races (share a car or swap a car). All that, and we can only run from 10am - 6pm. Talk about a busy schedule.

I will likely be running the National at Grattan, but if I were going to participate, I would prefer to have multiple chances to qualify for the "main" race on Sun. Fast lap from Sat OR Sun race? I&#39;d hate to be taken out or break on the first lap (no, that never happens :P ) of the Sun morning race and then have to start at the back for the finale.

Ed.

Andy Bettencourt
12-26-2006, 01:15 PM
Race finishing position sets the grid for Sun morning race. Fastest lap from Sat & Sun races sets the grid for the Feature.
Ed. [/b]

Ed, if this is the case, something is happening. Each sanctioned race HAS to have a qualifier. It can be a qualifying race or a traditional qualifying session. In the scenario you describe above, the Sunday morning race is not really a series &#39;race&#39; but a qualifier you shouldn&#39;t get traditional points for - all assuming you are trying to operate under two sanction numbers.

Seems strange but each race must have a distinct qualifier attached to it in order to qualify as a complete sanctioned race IIRC.

greendot
12-26-2006, 01:32 PM
Ed, if this is the case, something is happening. Each sanctioned race HAS to have a qualifier. It can be a qualifying race or a traditional qualifying session. In the scenario you describe above, the Sunday morning race is not really a series &#39;race&#39; but a qualifier you shouldn&#39;t get traditional points for - all assuming you are trying to operate under two sanction numbers.

Seems strange but each race must have a distinct qualifier attached to it in order to qualify as a complete sanctioned race IIRC.
[/b]

First, these are not SCCA sanctioned races so WHRRI is not subject to those constraints.

Second, how does using the best of either the Saturday or Sunday morning race times count for qualifying for the Sunday afternoon race differ from the Runoffs qualifying format?

Andy Bettencourt
12-26-2006, 01:49 PM
First, these are not SCCA sanctioned races so WHRRI is not subject to those constraints.[/b]

I didn&#39;t get that from the post. Obviously we are talking about SCCA stuff here.


Second, how does using the best of either the Saturday or Sunday morning race times count for qualifying for the Sunday afternoon race differ from the Runoffs qualifying format? [/b]

The SCCA Runoffs? There are multiple qualifying sessions for ONE race. One sanction, one race. You can have as many qualifiers as you want for one race/sanction.

greendot
12-26-2006, 02:03 PM
Let&#39;s assume that you are not saying that only SCCA has an idea how to do things.

It is still not clear to me how/why a Saturday race from which the times are used as Sunday morning qualifying and a Sunday morning race from which times are used as Sunday afternoon qualifying is OK, but to use both the Saturday and Sunday morning races to qualify for Sunday afternoon race is not OK.

Or, maybe I missed your point altogether and using a race as a qualifying session is not acceptable at all? No, you did say "Each sanctioned race HAS to have a qualifier. It can be a qualifying race or a traditional qualifying session."

So if we were talking of an SCCA series, are you saying that a qualifying race cannot also be a series race? I guess that makes sense to somebody smarter than I am. <_<

Bruce Wentzel

Andy Bettencourt
12-26-2006, 02:19 PM
Well, we all know that all rules may not make sense... :)

A &#39;race&#39; can&#39;t be a QUALIFIER and a RACE at the same time.

I missed where anyone said that Sat and Sun &#39;races&#39; can be a qualifier for a Sunday afternoon race. At the Runoffs, it&#39;s all qualifying until the one race.

Again, you can have a qualifying &#39;race&#39; to set the grid for the ACTUAL SANCTIONED RACE.

Let me give you this example in SCCA-world:
You are going to have a QUALIFYING race and then an actual RACE. You set the grid by season-to date points, random draw - whatever. Then you &#39;race&#39;. Finishing positions determine the grid for the RACE. This is only ONE RACE in the eyes of the SCCA. You have to have one qualifier tied to each race - PER SANCTION NUMBER.

Having said all that, I believe each series can assign double, triple - whatever amount of points they want to your weekend - but when you go to fill in your membership renewal - you can only put down that one sanction number - because it was only one SCCA sanctioned RACE...

Head is spinning....

greendot
12-26-2006, 02:27 PM
:bash_1_:

That&#39;s me on the left. :blink:

Ok, that&#39;s more clearer. :happy204:

Nevertheless, I like Ed&#39;s suggestion but will be there to race however the organizers do IT. :023:

xr4racer
12-26-2006, 03:10 PM
I would like to offer a different perspesctive. First, I am all for this IT Festival concept as I am an IT driver. But, I do not see how this is going to fly because for many years there has been 4 regionals at Mid Ohio and this year there is not a Brat Bash ran by Fort Wayne on the schedule. It appears they have licked there wounds from poor Mid Ohio turnouts and moved it to Gingerman. Someone correct me if this not true. So now we are down to 3 weekends at Mid Ohio for regionals plus the Friday date with the National in June. I can not see how Cincy is going to "lock out" GT&#39;s, Production, Sports Racers and open wheel cars and the TCC from the weekend which will only leave them 2 weekends at Mid Ohio.
I also cannot see how there will be a big enough turnout for the Festival when there are regionals the same weekend at Summit Point, Beaverun, and Lime Rock PLUS a National at Grattan. Someone enlighten me on how there will be a big turnout to pay the large Mid Ohio bill. Many drivers will say they will come but when it comes down too i9t they will race the regional that is closer to home especially when they want to win a championship, (NARRC, MARRS etc.)

Matt
Great Lakes #7 ITS RX-7

Andy Bettencourt
12-26-2006, 03:31 PM
Rome wasn&#39;t built in a day. Neither was the ARRC. :)

TCC is on the list IIRC.

Dave Burchfield
12-26-2006, 03:47 PM
Matt,

Since I have been campaigning for this type event for over a year now, let me give it a try.

In looking at the number of entries from GT, Prod, SS, and open wheel, which Todd has at his disposal, it is apparent that those entries are not participating in Regional events to the level as the IT, SM, and SRF classes. The thought was that if an event that focused on those classes were offered, the number of entrants would equal or surpass the normal numbers from past at Mid Ohio. We all are aware that the regions that race at MO are going to have to examine with care how they do business there in order to meet the rising costs of the track. With the Runoffs not being there any longer, many of the national drivers are now electing to concentrate their efforts in the direction of the Runoffs.

I have understood that Ft Wayne did not chose to move to Gingerman. I don&#39;t know this to be fact, but it is a possibility. We may have to wait for someone with solid information to weigh in on this one.

TCC has said that this event will be on their calendar. I have not seen it in print yet, but as is the norm, they would run with ITE.

You are correct that there are other events close to some who might enter, but we know what to expect in offering a "traditional" double regional at Mid Ohio. I guess the big question to answer is which will be a more successful event for competitors and the sponsoring region. I think only time will tell, and I applaud the region for making a bold step toward offering something unique. You can be assured that I will be doing whatever I may to help make this event a success.

I look forward to seeing you there, and yes, there will be a new engine in my company.

xr4racer
12-26-2006, 04:31 PM
Dave,
Thanks for the response, I am glad to hear the TCC will be included, they have a much better turnout when they are listed as a class not bunched in with ITE although they run together. As I have said in an earlier post before the thread blew up, Margarita Motorsports will have 7 or 8 cars entered I am sure. Glad to hear of the progress being made towards this event. Good Luck in your efforts.

Matt

Dave Burchfield
12-26-2006, 04:45 PM
Matt,

There will be a beverage waiting for you!

TAC
12-26-2006, 05:29 PM
Hi everyone,

The classes we are inviting are ITA , IT7, ITB, ITC, ITE ,TCC, ITR, ITS, SM and SRF. We hope to get a good turn out from IT7 and TCC so we can run them as seperate classes.


Todd

H5Civic
12-26-2006, 06:19 PM
Hi everyone,

The classes we are inviting are ITA , IT7, ITB, ITC, ITE ,TCC, ITR, ITS, SM and SRF. We hope to get a good turn out from IT7 and TCC so we can run them as seperate classes.


Todd
[/b]

Todd,

With the above being said, how many run groups are you expecting to use for this event? At a quick glance I see that six (6) is a fairly logical number of run groups made up of traditional group pairings from the ARRC the last few years (in no cronological order):

Group 1: ITA & IT7
Group 2: ITB & ITC
Group 3: ITE & TCC
Group 4: ITR & ITS
Group 5: SM
Group 6: SRF

Just curious, as I&#39;m sure others are.

Regards,

Sam

TAC
12-26-2006, 10:01 PM
Sam,

The grand scheme is to align closely in a few years ( Hopfully for the 25th anniversary of I.T.) with the ARRC. This means class alignment as well as rules plus more days. The big problem is we are trying something new and have two days to do what ARRC is now doing in four. So based on average I.T. attendance at Mid-O the last few years plus the fact that there are many other events this weekend, Plus the unknown turnout of IT7 and the new ITR class, we are looking at 5 groups.

Group 1 ITA, IT7, ITS

Group 2 ITB, ITC

Group 3 ITE, ITR, TCC

Group 4 SM

Group 5 SRF

Todd

greendot
12-26-2006, 10:11 PM
Well, in my dreams I was hoping IT7 and ITS would be separated and I might run both. This would make it difficult. :026:



will be there to race however the organizers do IT. :023:
[/b]

R2 Racing
12-26-2006, 10:34 PM
I&#39;ll go ahead and make my first plea here:

Please do not put ITA and ITS together at Mid Ohio. They run practically the exact same lap times but in vastly different ways. At our typical regionals (assuming ITS & ITA were classed together that weekend), it&#39;s not uncommon to see the top five ITA cars and the top five ITS cars all running in one huge, ten car jumbled mess. Anytime those two classes are put together at Mid Ohio, it really seems to ruin both of their races. Not to mention those two classes will be your two biggest in entries (except maybe SM). It could maybe be done with a split start, but I know that opens a whole other can of worms.

Andy Bettencourt
12-26-2006, 11:05 PM
I have to agree. Why not start out more similar to the ARRC right off the bat?

ITA, IT7
TCC, ITR, ITS, ITE
ITB, ITC
SM
SRF

Or if I were God for a day, this is what I would do:

ITA, ITC. IT7
ITR, ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE
SM
SRF

or

ITA, ITC, IT7
ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE, ITR
SM
SRF

dominojd
12-27-2006, 03:26 AM
Or if I were God for a day, this is what I would do:

[/b]


Come on Andy this isn&#39;t LRP. :D

TAC
12-27-2006, 06:54 AM
Andy, good ideas. The point is to make this a safe event, the thought is to run classes of similar speed. ITS moving in with the ITE, TCC and ITR has merit. IT7 is the big unknown . IT7 was absorbed into ITA a couple of years ago in this part of the country.

Todd

Bob Burns
12-27-2006, 07:22 AM
You are going to have a QUALIFYING race and then an actual RACE. You set the grid by season-to date points, random draw - whatever. Then you &#39;race&#39;. Finishing positions determine the grid for the RACE. This is only ONE RACE in the eyes of the SCCA. You have to have one qualifier tied to each race - PER SANCTION NUMBER.[/b]
For purposes of this event, I disagree.

The SCCA rules for determining qualifying positions at a National race are pretty well cast in stone and at a Double National, there must be separate qualifying sessions for each race (GCR 3.1.2.A.). But those rules don&#39;t apply to Regional racing. Also, since this event will not be part of the Great Lakes Regional Championship Series (because not all series classes are eligible for the event), then those series rules do not apply. Additionally, I see no reason for the region to apply for more than one sanction number for the event. In other words, this is one event and I believe that the region is free to establish whatever qualifying and race format they choose, subject to approval by SCCA Club Racing.

Also, take note of GCR 6.1.2.B. "Cars shall be positioned at the start in order of their official qualifying times without regard to engine displacement or class, with the fastest cars nearest the starting line, unless the Supplementary Regulations specify a different method." For this event, as long as the grid for a race is determined in some sort of fair and clearly-defined fashion spelled out in the Supps, I see no need to have a specific qualifier tied to a race.

Bob...

Bob Burns
12-27-2006, 07:39 AM
Well I guess the question of the day is.... running classes of similar speeds safer or not? Or do certain classes run similar lap times at Mid-Ohio that wouldn&#39;t at Road Atlanta.[/b]
Todd, the lap records for Mid Ohio can be found on the Great Lakes web site (http://www.greatlakes-scca.org/node/53). The ITS and ITA lap records are only 0.06 sec apart.

The philosophy used for a long time by San Francisco Region was that similar classes should not be in the same group because they will interfere with each other. That resulted in them running ITS and ITB in a group and ITA and ITC in a group. But that&#39;s just one philosophy. There may be as many opinions about race groupings as there are drivers.

You may see some crossover between ITA and IT7 if an IT7 guy is interested in more track time and wants to pay for another entry.

I didn&#39;t notice Spec Neon on your list of classes. I know there was a contingent around Detroit who was trying to build interest in Spec Neon, so you may want to think about listing them as separate class.

Bob...

Andy Bettencourt
12-27-2006, 07:57 AM
But Bob, this is a Double event for the local guys IIRC. That is why we are operating under the assumption there will be two sanctions.

Todd,

Having S and B together and A and C together IMHO makes the racing much better. The speed differential is there so as not to screw with the races while not being so much that a class loses 2-3 laps. If S and A are grouped together, and the top 5 in each class run similar times, I hate to say it but attendence will suffer IMHO. Why? Because the top cars in each run group need a fairly clean shot if this is to be a top event.

A quick look at the top 10-15 posts in this thread should give you an idea.

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=8832 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8832)

greendot
12-27-2006, 09:19 AM
I have to agree. Why not start out more similar to the ARRC right off the bat?

ITA, IT7
TCC, ITR, ITS, ITE
ITB, ITC
SM
SRF

Or if I were God for a day, this is what I would do:

ITA, ITC. IT7
ITR, ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE
SM
SRF

or

ITA, ITC, IT7
ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE, ITR
SM
SRF
[/b]

Option 1, mimicking this years ARRC was terrible for the ITS and TCC/ITE guys. Talk about making your times in different ways. :bash_1_:
PLEASE don&#39;t make that mistake. See the ARRC thread.

924Guy
12-27-2006, 09:45 AM
Indeed, Spec Neon is alive up here! We usually run it with Spec Pinata ;) at Waterford, but if we&#39;re looking to spread them out a little...

Otherwise, option #3 above seems like a decent spread to me...

Eagle7
12-27-2006, 10:28 AM
Please do not put ITA and ITS together at Mid Ohio. [/b]

I totally agree. I do NOT want to be lapped by Ruck. :P

lateapex911
12-27-2006, 12:21 PM
To me, this makes the most sense, froma safety, subscription and raceability point of view:

ITA, ITC. IT7
ITR, ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE
SM
SRF

ITA and ITC race well together, as there is enough differential, same for B and S, but not enough to create any kind of safety concern. And for the first year, the ITR times will not be dramatically faster than S, nor will there be a huge contingent, so treating R as if they are a fast few ITS cars probably makes sense.

ITE and the TCC are a much more natural grouping as well.

RSTPerformance
12-27-2006, 01:23 PM
I don&#39;t agree for putting ITR with ITB. The spread in HP is big enough with ITS & ITB. It will be hard enough winning the ITB race when dealing with the Mid-Pack ITS cars/drivers whome excell on the streights but tend to have trouble getting through the turns (no comment). At Mid Ohio is is imperative to cary speed through the turns, and it is hard to run 2 wide or outbreak someone, especialy those faster HP cars that are mid pack. I really don&#39;t want to bitch about the ITS guys, as most are fine but some really are bad... adding ITR to the mix with new drivers and cars will really cause a problem with these higher HP cars holding us up in the corners... It will probably be worse than the ITS TCC drama&#39;s at the ARRC.

IT7 can also run ITA correct? Why not allow the opportunity to run both IT7 and ITA and see how the cars stack up against the ITB cars, and put ITB and IT7 in the same group? maximizing entires is key...

ITE TCC and ITR will likely all have a HUGE verity of cars, driver capabilities and speed differentials... keep those unpredictable groupes together and get a full track, not only will all the cars have similar power but also each level of driver and car development will likely find someone else to RACE with.... wich in reality will be best for them.

SM should stay seperated from ITA, so they also could run either (BOTH) classes.

With all that rant.... my suggestion

Group 1: ITA, ITC
Group 2: TCC, ITE, ITR
Group 3: ITS, ITB, IT7
Group 4: SM
Group 5: SRF

As for the worries bout 1 or 2 sanctions... why not just make the entire event just 1 sanction??? Seems silly to be worrying about all this other stuff just so that drivers can have "more sanctioned events" (like it is a bragging right or something?) or worrying about drivers only attend 1 weekend and renew thier licence...

Raymond

dj10
12-27-2006, 01:29 PM
To me, this makes the most sense, froma safety, subscription and raceability point of view:

ITA, ITC. IT7
ITR, ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE
SM
SRF

ITA and ITC race well together, as there is enough differential, same for B and S, but not enough to create any kind of safety concern. And for the first year, the ITR times will not be dramatically faster than S, nor will there be a huge contingent, so treating R as if they are a fast few ITS cars probably makes sense.

ITE and the TCC are a much more natural grouping as well.
[/b]

ITR with ITS will be like ITS with ITA. The first 1/3 of each field will be mixing it up. I don&#39;t have a chrystal ball so I&#39;d be pissing in the wind if I guested how many ITR car were going to be there. The top ITS cars should be in the 1:42 to 1:43 range for fast laps depending on track conditions & weather, ITA 1:43 to 1:44, I&#39;m thinking ITR 1:40 + to 1:42. This is club course times, substract 2 seconds for the pro course. But what the hell do I know. :D

Andy Bettencourt
12-27-2006, 01:48 PM
So most everyone is looking at something like this:

ITA, ITC, IT7
ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE, ITR
SM
SRF

It is my favorite. No ITR representation yet on this but TCC and ITE should be much quicker and ITR should be small.

RSTPerformance
12-27-2006, 02:00 PM
Can&#39;t IT7 run in ITA also??? Don&#39;t those drivers and don&#39;t we the regions want to encourage running in both classes to increase numbers? Why not put them with ITB?

Raymond

Andy Bettencourt
12-27-2006, 02:16 PM
Can&#39;t IT7 run in ITA also??? Don&#39;t those drivers and don&#39;t we the regions want to encourage running in both classes to increase numbers? Why not put them with ITB?

Raymond [/b]

Because they are ITA cars. They fit well. In the ARRC Schedule thread, you wanted SSM and SM in the same run group - why didn&#39;t you care about double entries then?


Personally I like the SM idea, I thikn it is great to work into the weekend, however thier race groupe is with SSM correct? I don&#39;t see any need for them to have thier own race groupe... start the 67 cars for the sprint race if need be.[/b]

:)

Bob Burns
12-27-2006, 02:28 PM
As for the worries bout 1 or 2 sanctions... why not just make the entire event just 1 sanction?[/b]
I tend to agree.

What justification is there for two sanction numbers? This event most likely won&#39;t be part of any series, so getting two finishes or double points won&#39;t apply. On the other hand, I think there are a lot of guys who run Double Regionals just to get two finishes to count towards their license or they share a car with someone who wants to run, too.

But if this is to be a premier, championship-caliber event, ala ARRC, should the event cater towards drivers who just want finishes?

Bob...

Andy Bettencourt
12-27-2006, 02:43 PM
I tend to agree.

What justification is there for two sanction numbers? This event most likely won&#39;t be part of any series, so getting two finishes or double points won&#39;t apply. On the other hand, I think there are a lot of guys who run Double Regionals just to get two finishes to count towards their license or they share a car with someone who wants to run, too.

But if this is to be a premier, championship-caliber event, ala ARRC, should the event cater towards drivers who just want finishes?

Bob...

[/b]

The ARRC is part of a series. It has always been a glorified Regional. But what GLORY it is!!! This one will be too I am pretty sure.

dj10
12-27-2006, 04:25 PM
The ARRC is part of a series. It has always been a glorified Regional. But what GLORY it is!!! This one will be too I am pretty sure.

[/b]

Andy, we need one of these Special IT races @ WGI, VIR & Daytona too!!! :023:





I tend to agree.

What justification is there for two sanction numbers? This event most likely won&#39;t be part of any series, so getting two finishes or double points won&#39;t apply. On the other hand, I think there are a lot of guys who run Double Regionals just to get two finishes to count towards their license or they share a car with someone who wants to run, too.

But if this is to be a premier, championship-caliber event, ala ARRC, should the event cater towards drivers who just want finishes?

Bob...

[/b]

Can you save money by have only one sanction number? If not then it makes no difference at all on how many sanction numbers the event gets does? If I do finish twice I&#39;d like to get credit for doing so, with one number you only get a single finish even if you run 5 races in the same weekend. So unless we can save some $, it makes no difference.

gran racing
12-27-2006, 05:18 PM
The difference it makes (even if it doesn&#39;t save much money) is the flexibility to run the weekend differently (for example using the previous day&#39;s race results for the next day&#39;s starting position).

Butch Kummer
12-27-2006, 05:19 PM
Yes, the host region saves money by making it one sanctioned event rather than two. We get some serious grief about it (mainly from guys wanting to get credit for four races toward keep their National license), but the ARRC is one sanction number regardless of how many races you enter.

Also, the ARRC is not part of any series. All the divisional series (SARRC, NARRC, MARRS, Mid-AM, etc.) are over by then so we are a stand-alone event (sort of like Notre Dame football? - but I don&#39;t want to get started on that).

When the doo-doo hit the fan earlier this year over our original proposed groupings (mainly ITA & ITS), I floated the idea of ITB/ITS and ITC/ITA. The ITB & ITC guys really preferred running together rather than having to watch their mirrors, so we ended up with ITB/ITC, ITA/IT7, and ITS/TCC (we&#39;ll replace TCC with ITR for 2007). I understand that Todd needs to put all the IT cars into three groups rather than four plus M-O is a vastly different animal than Road Atlanta, so maybe the slow/fast combination can work better there. For the forseeable future, however, the ARRC will continue to group classes of similar speeds together.

Butch Kummer

R2 Racing
12-27-2006, 05:36 PM
As for my opinion of putting ITS and TCC together, all you need to do is watch Rob Huffmaster&#39;s in-car camera from the &#39;06 ARRC to see it&#39;s a bad idea (I know it was a last second decission that was deemed necessary at the time and will be changed in the future, so that&#39;s a done issue). Although it really was funny to watch all of the "gesturing" Rob was doing to his TCC competition.

I guess I support the groupings Andy listed of:
ITA, ITC, IT7
ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE, ITR
SM
SRF

If we&#39;re limited to only five groups, I think that&#39;s the best compromise to ensure the best racing all around. I use to race ITC for several years and dealing with slow ITA cars wasn&#39;t much different than dealing with slow ITB cars. I would think the same could be said for an ITB car dealing with ITS cars versus ITA cars, but I&#39;ve never raced there. Plus I think you&#39;ll be getting less overlap anyways.

I know that the ITC and the ITB guys aren&#39;t going to want to hear it, but ITS and ITA are going to have the two biggest IT fields, no matter what. So yes, I do think that both of them should be put into groups where they&#39;ll be the fastest cars on the track and be able to show off why they&#39;re the two most exciting classes out there right now.

dj10
12-27-2006, 06:07 PM
As for my opinion of putting ITS and TCC together, all you need to do is watch Rob Huffmaster&#39;s in-car camera from the &#39;06 ARRC to see it&#39;s a bad idea (I know it was a last second decission that was deemed necessary at the time and will be changed in the future, so that&#39;s a done issue). Although it really was funny to watch all of the "gesturing" Rob was doing to his TCC competition.

I guess I support the groupings Andy listed of:
ITA, ITC, IT7
ITS, ITB
TCC, ITE, ITR
SM
SRF

If we&#39;re limited to only five groups, I think that&#39;s the best compromise to ensure the best racing all around. I use to race ITC for several years and dealing with slow ITA cars wasn&#39;t much different than dealing with slow ITB cars. I would think the same could be said for an ITB car dealing with ITS cars versus ITA cars, but I&#39;ve never raced there. Plus I think you&#39;ll be getting less overlap anyways.

I know that the ITC and the ITB guys aren&#39;t going to want to hear it, but ITS and ITA are going to have the two biggest IT fields, no matter what. So yes, I do think that both of them should be put into groups where they&#39;ll be the fastest cars on the track and be able to show off why they&#39;re the two most exciting classes out there right now. [/b]

I&#39;ll agree with Kevin on this since it seems to be the lesser of any evils. Looking at this from a ITR aspect this won&#39;t be any different then being with AS cars. The front cars will be 5 to 10 seconds faster than us and we&#39;ll be jesturing at the slower TCC & ITE cars that will making our lives miserable throught the twisty parts. I will say, it will be the same for everyone out there. :114:

TAC
12-27-2006, 09:11 PM
Well,

To say the thread expanded is an exaggeration. Thank you all for the advice, it is greatly appreciated. Butch is correct about our talk and the idea of pairing classes of similar speed together. The traditional class groupings for double regionals tend to be chaotic to say the least with IT, So I value the input. ARRC looks like this for Saturday 2007:

ITB, ITC
ITA, IT7
ITS, ITR
TCC, ITO

The suggestion that seems to be winning out for Mid-O 2007 is:

ITA, IT7, ITC
ITS, ITB
ITE, ITR, TCC ( * ITO at ARRC incorporates ITR and ITE)

Todd

shwah
12-28-2006, 01:01 AM
I am not too worried about whether there is a slower guy in a faster class grouped with us in ITB. How is that different from any other race? Yes it does happen with ITS cars too, It is the nature of the beast. Just the fact that we are not slammed in with 5 other classes will be a nice change to me...

lateapex911
12-28-2006, 10:50 AM
I don&#39;t agree for putting ITR with ITB. The spread in HP is big enough with ITS & ITB. It will be hard enough winning the ITB race when dealing with the Mid-Pack ITS cars/drivers whome excell on the streights but tend to have trouble getting through the turns (no comment). At Mid Ohio is is imperative to cary speed through the turns, and it is hard to run 2 wide or outbreak someone, especialy those faster HP cars that are mid pack. I really don&#39;t want to bitch about the ITS guys, as most are fine but some really are bad... adding ITR to the mix with new drivers and cars will really cause a problem with these higher HP cars holding us up in the corners........

Raymond [/b]

Disagree. Do you really think a 2750 pound BMW E36 on 8.5" wide rims is going to hold up a 2550 pound Audi with 5 cylinders hanging out there on 6" rims in the corners??

itracer
12-28-2006, 11:31 AM
Disagree. Do you really think a 2750 pound BMW E36 on 8.5" wide rims is going to hold up a 2550 pound Audi with 5 cylinders hanging out there on 6" rims in the corners??
[/b]

Yup. Same as the Porsche in ITS at 2715# did last year.

Slow is slow, no matter what you drive. But anyone can go fast when they get to the straits. That is the problem. I had the same problem in the school when I was placed in the “fast” group. I was in an ITB Rabbit and was faster than some of the ITE cars - but only in the corners :rolleyes:

RSTPerformance
12-28-2006, 01:39 PM
As jason said... slow drivers or less developed cars are slow in the corners... even GT1 or production cars are an issue... when they hit the streight it doesn&#39;t matter the driver abilities or the cars decreased development, they will still drive away.

Andy-

The ARRC is a completely different animal IMO... The ARRC is trying to cram in A LOT more classes (and cars) into the day, thus the need to combine more classes. In this IT fetival idea the number of classes seems to be much less, thus the need to incorperate more opportunities for multiple entries. My opinion is completely based on the proposed classes, if more classes are added, well then my opinion would probably change.

Just my opinion... Either way I like the latest groupings that have been posted. (IE: ITR with ITE and TCC)

Raymond

TAC
12-29-2006, 04:34 PM
Indeed, Spec Neon is alive up here! We usually run it with Spec Pinata ;) at Waterford, but if we&#39;re looking to spread them out a little...

Otherwise, option #3 above seems like a decent spread to me...
[/b]


Don&#39;t Neon&#39;s fit in ITB or ITC?

Todd

R2 Racing
12-29-2006, 04:53 PM
Don&#39;t Neon&#39;s fit in ITB or ITC?

Todd
[/b]
Uh oh, you may have offended them! :P

Both the DOHC and SOHC Neons are rightfully in ITA and if they come, they should be running there.

TAC
12-29-2006, 07:19 PM
Uh oh, you may have offended them! :P

Both the DOHC and SOHC Neons are rightfully in ITA and if they come, they should be running there.
[/b]


OOP&#39;s! Sorry about that guys. We can&#39;t run a Spec Neon class this year but your more than welcome to play in ITA.


Todd

Edwin Ho
12-29-2006, 09:47 PM
We can&#39;t run a Spec Neon class this year but your more than welcome to play in ITA. [/b]

I have several friends that run SN. Is there a particular reason why you can&#39;t recognize them as a seperate class, but put them in the same group as ITA? They may be a legal ITA car, but they are no where near full prep. They&#39;ll all be running several Mid-O races to prep for the NASA Nationals. If you offer them their own class, you may convince them to come to your event en mass.

Ed.

TAC
12-30-2006, 12:57 PM
Ed,

Its great to hear of other classes wanting to join in the fun. While I love the idea of running Spec Neon as an individual class it is something that we cannot incorporate into this years event. It comes down to the rules I must follow and the committment of the race committee to build this into an event to compliment the ARRC in November. We have to get a year under our belt, review how things went and go from there.

Todd

Andy Bettencourt
12-30-2006, 01:00 PM
Also understand that SN is a NASA class, and not even a SCCA regional class.