Lap Timers

[Sandro]

I am looking into getting an in car timer such as a Hot Lap and had a few questions.

I was talking to someone and they said dont waste your time they dont work. My question is what are your guys experiences with them? Personally to me they seem like they should work if set up properly.

My main concern is when aligned correctly do they take an accurate time measurement, or would I be better off bringing my grandma and a stop watch?

It seems the majority of people use the Hot Lap timer, but I also came across XTRacing timer http://www.cc-2000.com/xtracing/en/

I like that with the XT Timer you can connect it to a computer and see all your times together. Has anyone had any experiece with one of these?

Any pros and cons of either would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Campbell]

I tried to go the timer route but it didn't work for me. With 15 or 18 transmitters set up on the front straight I was getting multiple hits on my receiver and could never get a correct lap time - didn't matter the transmitters weren't for my kind of timing system. good luck

[dickita15]

I finally broke down and bought one this year. The programming in them is set up so that the do not recognize any signal closer than 5 seconds from another signal. The norm is that all transmitters are set up together so the in car only sees the first one in line. My first weekend I set up my tripod and went out. I was really annoyed as there was somebody transmitting around turn 3, so I would get 32 seconds there and then 50 seconds at pit in. it is a real pain trying to do math while driving.
I ran another 4 weekends and this never happened again. I am not the most consistent driver and it takes me a few laps to get up to speed and the immediate feedback helped with both these problems. By the way I never set up my own tripod the rest of the year. There was always a signal.

[Joe Harlan]

http://www.aimsports.com/products/tg/index.html

http://www.aimsports.com/images/products/MyChron-Light-TG-small.jpg

This is the one I use and it works awesome at every track we have used it. The key is in seting it up to have a dely long enough to only read 1 beacon. I bought a couple of the units that have their own batteries so I can move them between my racecars and shifter karts.

[gran racing]

This is the one I use. It was developed from the guy who invented Hot Lap timers. It's less common in the states (is that good or bad - I actually think good since you don't have to compete for beacons). I've been using my T100 for ~ 4 years and have not complaints about it.

Lap timer (http://www.rollcentre.co.uk/rollcentre/html/t100_lap_timer.asp)

I will say that I now use the lap timer more to count the number of laps I am into the race, and stopped using it during qualifying. Becareful using times if you're not using a data acq. system or using multiple beacons - it can hinder you!

[IPRESS]

I sold an Intercomp Timer that is much like the the Hot Lap. I then bought the AIM timer like the one above. GREAT tool. Big display for us experienced folks who use reader glasses. :rolleyes: (No comments from the peanut gallery.... you will all have an opportunity to participate in getting old!)
No really, the AIM unit is great, well worth the price.

[Eric Parham]

Any thoughts on the ones that work through the AMB transponder? I thought they were initially overpriced (monopoly ?), but that might have changed by now. They must rely on the track's timing loop being both present and active. Anyone know if the track timing loops are normally operational/active on open practice days?

[JimLill]

Any thoughts on the ones that work through the AMB transponder? I thought they were initially overpriced (monopoly ?), but that might have changed by now. They must rely on the track's timing loop being both present and active. Anyone know if the track timing loops are normally operational/active on open practice days?
[/b]

The AMB T&S system needs to be up and running and more importantly the BlindApex Transmiiter needs to be online and working (properly).

[lateapex911]

If you haven't bought the tach and guages for your car, consider getting one of the less expensive data aq packages that include a display, like the AIM MyChron system.

The system usually includeds a configurable display, and data aquisition functions and of course, lap timing. The display can show you revs, speed, lap time (often predictive as well), as well as a number of other items, ioil press, water temp, etc, and has settable shift lights, and alarms. I priced out a tach, and lap timer and to get good quality stuff, with programmable shift lights, and big displays was in the $700 range. Add guages, and such, and you're close to getting the data aspect for just a few hundred.

So, you kill 3 birds with one stone, and often for not a lot of extra money.

Here's a link...and the price for this is under a thou...they start with the same displey for under 650.

http://www.aimsports.com/products/m3-xglog/index.html

Now, if you've decided it's JUST a lap timer you need, look for features like adjustable blanking windows. Sometimes the preset amount, as mentioned above, is insufficient. The better units can be adjusted, or can run multiple beacons for segment timing. Also, get a good easy to read display. The AIM unit pictured is well regarded. I would hesitate about the AMB solution...it's a crapshoot to count on the tracks for test days.

Accuracy?

Hmm...my AIM MXL system shows my best time at Road Atlanta recently as .07 second faster then the track timing system. The AIM had me at a X:XX.317 vs the tracks X:XX.380. That's probably close enough for most of us.

[Greg Amy]

Jake's right: save your pennies for data aquisition. My GPS-based data aq is also within thousandths of the official times, I get sector-by-sector returns rather than just whole laps, plus I have a digital record of what I actually DID that lap to get that time, rather than trying to remember it.

Just like "R" tires were in the late 80's, and in-car video and super-hot dampers were in the 90's, data aquisition is now the club racers' unfair advantage in the aughts. It's gotten to the point now where you've GOT to have it to be competitive. Even better, compared to the price of consumables like tires and shocks, your data aquisition system never wears out... - GA

[Joe Harlan]

Jake's right: save your pennies for data aquisition. My GPS-based data aq is also within thousandths of the official times, I get sector-by-sector returns rather than just whole laps, plus I have a digital record of what I actually DID that lap to get that time, rather than trying to remember it.

Just like "R" tires were in the late 80's, and in-car video and super-hot dampers were in the 90's, data aquisition is now the club racers' unfair advantage in the aughts. It's gotten to the point now where you've GOT to have it to be competitive. Even better, compared to the price of consumables like tires and shocks, your data aquisition system never wears out... - GA
[/b]


Greg I agree on full data system but I will say this. for some of us a data system is just not doable. I would highly recommend a dash type timer as a tool for instant feedback. Most of us can't remember what lap felt the best or who was around us during the session. The instant number allows our brains to recognize a good lap and maybe remember how we pulled it off. Timers and video cameras can be some of the best data you can get for the money.

[Greg Amy]

Joe, data aq is just not that expensive any more. A Race Technology DL-1 is listed at GBP499 (slightly less than US$1000 at today's rates); a set of new Hoosiers costs ~$750 or more.

I *guarantee* you that the DL-1 will produce a larger decrease in lap times than the Hoosiers will, and the DL-1 doesn't cycle out after 8-10 sessions...! Using $$/seconds of lap time, especially given that the depreciation cycle of the DL-1 is SIGNIFICANTLY less than tires, it's one hell of a value...

Or you can spend ~$250 for a lap timer and get nothing more than what you get for free from T&S.

http://fasttechlimited.com/index.htm

[gran racing]

Greg,
One of the things (besides $$) thats holding me back from getting a data acq system is not knowing what to do with the information and how to use it to make me faster.

[Greg Amy]

One of the things (besides $$) thats holding me back from getting a data acq system is not knowing what to do with the information and how to use it to make me faster.[/b]

Well, that's where you need to enlist the services of an intelligent individual that has engineering, computer, driving/racing, and vehicle dynamics/setup experience and skillsets to teach you how to use it.

Know anyone like that...?

;)

'Course, until buy a data aq unit, you never will have those skillsets...

[erlrich]

Haven't used either, but I have to agree with Greg on this one. As a driver it's nice to know WHEN I've turned a fast lap, but it's much, much more useful to know WHY I turned a fast lap, i.e. where did I pick up those few tenths versus an average lap.

For me, since I'm still pouring (ok, trickling) $$$$ into the mechanical aspects of making the car faster, the next best thing is a decent video camera. No, you won't get the instant feedback you would get with an in-car timing system, but what you do get is the ability to go back and review that fast lap over and over again. I am almost always able to get within a tenth of T&S on lap timing from the video, but what I'm also able to do is pick various "waypoints" around the track and check my sector times. Of course, I would have to think the ultimate package would be a data logger and video cam together.

[tnord]

as someone who has a $250 (one of those XT units) lap timer, and $200 in autometer guages, i have to agree with Greg. i've helped install a budget AIM unit in a friend's car, and seen the potential it has in the right hands. i kinda wished i woulda saved my money and got a DA.

BUT....

at the time i just didn't have 1k to plop down all at once. here's where i think my laptimer was useful; i race at most 1x per month, so when i hop back in the car for qualifying, i don't have the 'feel' of the limit of the car right away. when my laptimer pops up telling me i'm a couple seconds off where i need to be, and i'm driving the same line, i know i just need to push harder. that instant feedback that a T&S sheet doesn't provide has been usefull for me.

also, if you're not going with the DA, i'd suggest not getting the AMB laptimer, as it's completely useless on any test day. test day's or just open lapping days with a mazda club or whatever are generally VERY usefull as you get more track time then you know what to do with, and get to try lots of different stuff. it is in these situations where you REALLY want to have some sort of laptimer.

[lateapex911]

.

also, if you're not going with the DA, i'd suggest not getting the AIM laptimer, as it's completely useless on any test day. test day's or just open lapping days with a mazda club or whatever are generally VERY usefull as you get more track time then you know what to do with, and get to try lots of different stuff. it is in these situations where you REALLY want to have some sort of laptimer. [/b]

Huh?? The AIM unit works ALL the time...as long as YOU set it up and have batteries. Were you referring to the AMB system? Which is On or OFF at the whim of the track?

[Bildon]

>> what are your guys experiences with them?

Pain in the arse :mad1:
Not aimed properly, or they get left at the track or you dont have time to get it set up before your session etc, etc. I had a HotLap once and used it sucessfully maybe twice.

With my GPS based timer, I get everylap, every time, within .001 of the AMB timing system used by the tracks.

I have a DL1 ($900) but Traqmate makes on for less than $700. If you ask Santa real nice he can get it to you for about $650 I'm told. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were not GPS lap timers without other data acq. features already out there for $300-400...somewhere.

[Joe Harlan]

OK so since this has become a advertisement for DL1 I have to ask. How do you get the data from this unit?

[Greg Amy]

CF (compact flash) card.

[Bildon]

>> OK so since this has become a advertisement for DL1

no, no, it's just that the Race-Technology DL-1 beat the others to market and Greg and I bought one mainly due to the importer advertising here. If I were to do it all over I might have bought the Racepak 'G2X'.

>> How do you get the data from this unit?

CF card or RS-232 cable

Is use the following in my laptop, works great:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0310/delkintest02-001.jpg

[tnord]

Huh?? The AIM unit works ALL the time...as long as YOU set it up and have batteries. Were you referring to the AMB system? Which is On or OFF at the whim of the track?
[/b]

:poof:

AIM?? i didn't say AIM, i said AMB. :D

[lateapex911]

:poof:

AIM?? i didn't say AIM, i said AMB. :D [/b]

Tricky pirate edit!

[Joe Harlan]

>> OK so since this has become a advertisement for DL1

no, no, it's just that the Race-Technology DL-1 beat the others to market and Greg and I bought one mainly due to the importer advertising here. If I were to do it all over I might have bought the Racepak 'G2X'.

>> How do you get the data from this unit?

CF card or RS-232 cable

Is use the following in my laptop, works great:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0310/delkintest02-001.jpg
[/b]


Ah, So this under 1K deal requires a 1K laptop to have any real value at the racetrack. In that respect it is no different than most other DA systems out there. I own 3 different Pi systems but I like the look of this unit. I guess the real deal is that a 250 dollar timer could be a benefit to those that can't swing a DA system and a Laptop in their first couple years of driving. The aim time can give you a lap by lap break down on screen so there is some value even for me.

[Greg Amy]

Ah, So this under 1K deal requires a 1K laptop to have any real value at the racetrack.[/b]

Uuuuhh, were you expecting the data to be uploaded to your brain via satellite transmissions...? How were expecting those transmissions to get through your tinfoil hat...? ;)

Besides, even if you don't have a laptop (basic laptops are under $500 now, and CF-to-PCMCIA adapters are $15) you can choose to initially take the card home and review the data there (CF-to-PCI adapters are $20). It's obvious you own a computer...


...a 250 dollar timer could be a benefit to those that can't swing a DA system...[/b]

I disagree. Personally, I've found lap timers to be more a distraction than an assistance. The time I'm spending trying to read, process, and use that information (all while on the racetrack at speed!) is time I can use for other things, like driving. Plus, once that lap is gone, so is the data. not too many people short of the aptitude of Ayrton Senna can possibly recall after the session every lap detail of what caused you to go slower/faster...

Most people use those $250 timers to see what they did, not for any kind of driving analysis. Again, it takes a special personality to be able to adjust driving real-time on the current lap, based on lap time and what they think happened in the previous lap, with nothing more than frangbile memory in a high-stress situation to recall exactly what that was.

Different strokes/priorities/whatever you want to call it, Joe. But I'm pretty well convinced, after having used my data aquisition system this year to inarguably incredible success, that NOT having DA is a significant DISadvantage these days.

I think it's worth skipping a set of tires, the lap timer, extra gauges (another pet peeve of mine), or even a whole event in order to buy...

[Bildon]

>> not too many people short of the aptitude of Ayrton Senna can possibly recall after the session every lap detail of what caused you to go slower/faster...

You are showing your age Greg :P
Read this.
http://www.tracc5.com/News%20stories%202006/9-27-2006a.htm

Most 14 year old kids who spend ALL day long driving could do this IF they have the basic "driver's gene". Man I hate reading stuff like this. Makes me wish I had a shifter cart at age 10.

My favorite quote:
The back-yard training sessions nonetheless continued. “In go-karts,” says Jeff, “there’s no aero, no downforce. It’s all about that contact patch and how well the driver feels it. When Colin came in, I’d say, ‘What was each tire doing? Describe it to me exactly.’ Man, he got good at that.”

“There was one drill,” Colin remembers, “where I’d go out for 15 laps and work the right-front tire real hard but save the left front. Or they’d put on one crappy tire, and it was my job to figure out which it was.”

>> with nothing more than frangbile memory in a high-stress situation to recall exactly what that was.

This is what large amounts track time will correct. I've been lucky enough to have a race track (BeaveRun) built 15 minutes from my house. Its North Course is a small simple track. I have 100's of laps on it by now. I cant do what Colin can do, but I'm at the point where I can not think about my driving much if I'm under "95%" and can instead really focus on the car's dynamics (slip angle vs. steering input, yaw, pitch and dive under braking etc etc) If I had one of those predictive lap timing displays (want an RT Dash 2!) I think I could definitely utilize "on the fly" it without losing the ability to drive fast laps.

>> that NOT having DA is a significant DISadvantage these days.

Yup, agreed. But you have to be the type pf person that can use it. It wont tell you to brake later or turn in sooner, you have to derive that from the data. So if graphs and numbers and charts are not how you can internalize data then you are not going to get much out of it.

We're in the digital age, analog guys to the back of the line please :P

>> requires a 1K laptop to have any real value

Sure, How else do you reprogram your ECU at the track ?? B)

I remember reading and article in RaceTech or someplace about Andy Priaulx. They we talking about data. And the fact that his team does not put a lot of emphasis on it. Instead they are lucky enough to have Andy's brain for use as a data recorder. He can, for an entire session recall what the car is doing on corner entry, mid corner and exit, and recount it for the engineers at the end of the session. He can tell you this for every corner, and for early, mid and late session. For the rest of us, there are data recorders :D
http://www.andypriaulx.com

[Joe Harlan]

Sure, How else do you reprogram your ECU at the track ?? B)
[/b]

Good point.

But I think the basic question that started this topic was.
I am looking into getting an in car timer such as a Hot Lap and had a few questions.

I was talking to someone and they said dont waste your time they dont work. My question is what are your guys experiences with them? Personally to me they seem like they should work if set up properly.

My main concern is when aligned correctly do they take an accurate time measurement, or would I be better off bringing my grandma and a stop watch?
[/b]

There is a benefit to using a properly setup timer over Grandma and a stop watch. While I enjoy having Grandma at the track she is too busy programming a new fuel map and adjusting my shocks by telemetry. :D

[lateapex911]

I just saw you on the TV, Joe...the T@ race on my TIVO...will the race set up pay off and get the Nissans to the front??? Time will tell, but Will Turners guy says you're wrong...;)

[Joe Harlan]

Ha, well I was wrong, You know the sucky thing about a race is they never unfold the way you think. Turner did a great job but the subbies had em covered.

[tdw6974]

[quote]
(basic laptops are under $500 now, and CF-to-PCMCIA adapters are $15) you can choose to initially take the card home and review the data there (CF-to-PCI adapters are $20). data aquisition system
Greg, Suggestions for a laptop. Processor, memory. and whatever else is good :rolleyes: I just got a "Special Discount card" from Dell that looks like they are going to send me a laptop and money to boot(No pun intended) t weaver :eclipsee_steering:

[Greg Amy]

Tom, just about anything current is more than adequate for data aquisition. Set a budget, start with the highest processor then drop it down a slot (older processors are more than adequate but usually cost quite a bit less than the "latest and greatest"), then add 1GB RAM (or more if you can afford it - try to minimize the number of DIMMs so you can add more later if necessary). From there add as big a hard drive as you'd like (30-40GB minimum), then physical characteristics (size, weight, etc.), and a R/W CD (so you can offload files to storage). You won't need killer graphics cards or sound. Make sure to get a wireless card and modem for traveling.

I just priced out a Dell Inspiron for Matt at something like $650, and it's plenty of computer...

I'm lucky in that I'm "in the business"; I am a systems admin for Hartford Hospital. So, I get toys. My favorite at-track computer this year was the Dell X1, a very small and lightweight "knapsackable" computer (and absolutely PERFECT for taking notes in class at university). Unfortunately, Dell dropped the X1 and I had to give mine back to the medical staff (I'm looking for a good used one to buy for myself). It was replaced by the Dell D420, another nice box.

However, if this is to be your only computer, you may find it too small for everyday use; thus, I'd suggest the Lattitude 6xx series or the Inspirons, and if you really want some desktop-quality power that is especially adequate for all-around use, the Lattitude 8xx series is very good...HTH - GA

[JamesB]

Lat D620 is a great machine, its what we just used to replace our laptops at work. Got all the bells and wistles and small. If you dont get all the docking stuff and monitors you can get one packed with goodies for about 1200. USB CF reader is 0-15 bucks if you watch rebates and actually fill out the rebate.

If you hunt around nowdays you can find lightweight multimedia laptops for around the same price. They might be a little heavier, but they usually have great resolution and build in media card readers. Again another option for a multiuse computer.

[Bildon]

I like the sturdier business models instead of the consumer models with all the fancy plastic crap on them.
Compaq/HP Evo and IBM Thinkpad have always worked well for me. Don't forget EBay. You can get a ~1 GHz laptop for dirt cheap now. Will do DAq just fine.

[JamesB]

Well thats why we got the Lat D620. Metal casing around the insides, really built for the engineer on the road or business guy that has to have a bigger monitor then the m600 or m700 ultraportable models.

But then thats my luck, I have a work laptop and feedom to install software on it. So if I did get a DL1 or other DA all I would need is a reader which for the DL I have due to my cameras taking CF already.

[tdw6974]

How About something like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Dell-1300-B130-Ins...tem120058454792 (http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Dell-1300-B130-Inspiron-Laptop-1-60GHz-1GB-60GB-1yr_W0QQitemZ120058454792QQihZ002QQcategoryZ140080 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120058454792)

[Greg Amy]

I don't have any personal experience with that model, but the specs are good!

[gran racing]

I sure do like my Mac! :026:

[Greg Amy]

I sure do like my computer that leaves me totally out of the loop in terms of data aquisition software, ECU management software, and compatibility with 99.5% of the people around me! But, it has a pretty logo on the cover and I can edit video and newsletters!! :026:[/b]

Fixed that for you...

;)

[lateapex911]

<strike>Fixed</strike> Played my overbearing moderator card <strike>that</strike> for you...

;)
[/b]

hee hee...

(I know, you don&#39;t have to be a moderator to quote and dork around, it just sounded better...;) )

[tdw6974]

Well lets see if anyone has used The Racer Eye system looks like it would do what we want to do. Since we don&#39;t need a dash display unit this looks workable and I can still use the laptop to down load and store info. Here is web site http://racereye.com/index.html thanks T W :eclipsee_steering:

[tdw6974]

I :114: got the laptop. Dell D600 Latitude Pentium at 1.7 G 1024. MB memory 60G Drive Modem.ethernet and wireless , dvd/cdrw, bunch of ports. windows xp pro with License and cd, Battery guaranteed to hold charge , something called open office and 6 months warranty from dell left. Now need to decide Data acq system. :eclipsee_steering:

[tom_sprecher]

A lot of the guys I hang with (Formula) use systems from Pi. Anybody have experience with these? They overlay each other&#39;s lap data and compare that w/in-car video. If you go this route plan on spending some really big bucks as $250 might buy you just a sensor.