Now that we have PDEs, why not take advantage of this tool?

[gran racing]

(Partially stemming from the MidWest & Central Div IT thread about PDEs)

I’m very pleased that SCCA is now starting to performance driving events. It had been an important missing stage for a novice to begin club racing with SCCA. Now that we have this tool, I’d really like to see it utilized in a manner to help grow the club further and make the transition into wheel-to-wheel racing easier.

One complaint I’m hearing here and on other boards is the lack of PDE events being held, the amount of volunteers it takes to host an event, in some areas a lack of participation (which a big portion maybe since it’s a new program), a lack of available open dates at tracks, etcetera. When the PDE program was developed, what was its goal? There are many people who do not want to progress further than HPDEs, which is fine but I’d like to think that PDEs was formed to help groom people to start wheel-to-wheel racing.

Why don’t we learn from the success NASA has incorporating PDEs within club racing events? Yeah, the quick response is there’s no room for it given the number of run groups already being run which is currently true with many race weekend formats. Why not begin utilizing restricted regionals to allow people to participate in PDEs? There are several national classes that have plenty of National ONLY events to race.

Right now, when PDE participants want to transition to club racing, it is often a confusing and intimidating process. This transition could be made much easier for people to make if they’ve already experienced what a club racing weekend is like, have gotten to know several people they paddock with that race W2W racing, workers, and many other aspects of a race weekend. There are already dates reserved, volunteers would already be at the event (heck, some corner workers could be given a break during these sessions since there is restricted passing areas), and the region could start with a very limited number of run groups. If PDEs grow, there is enough demand and opportunities to do full-day PDEs, then maybe only have Advanced Drivers run groups part of the club racing weekend (this group would also be included in the PDE only dates).

[Greg Amy]

Dave, I agree with you. I've attended NASA events and the combination of HPDE and racing is very good, and I think it's a great way for folks to transition into club racing. However, there are some things that we have to take into consideration:

- NASA does not have NEAR the number of groups we do in SCCA (and no wings n things). Unless we run restricted as you suggest we just can't fit them in.
- I'm assuming that unless the PDE program can be standalone, we need to rely on licensed drivers for instructors. Factors to consider:
-- Club racers are typically very busy on race weekends, and may not be willing or able to volunteer as instructors between their race groups.
-- If on off weekends, PDE and club racing have to TALK TO EACH OTHER so we do not schedule events on the same weekends. I wanted to instruct this past year, but we had schedule conflicts.
-- PDE has to understand that there needs to be a carrot to get club racers out there as instructors. Club racing folks spend a lot and need to budget their time and money, and scheduling in PDEs in between two close racing weekends just don't cut it.
-- One thing club racers want is testing and track time. Marque clubs and local HDPE groups (e.g., PDA, COM) are self-sufficient within their group, PDE is not. Attract club racers to instruct by offering open track time and free entry.

So, if you offer free track time and schedule the events with the club racing schedule in mind, I think you'll have plenty of folks wanting to instruct...otherwise folks will probably choose to use the time and financial budgets for other uses. - GA

[JamesB]

I will agree that HPDE and racing are a good way to open you up. But one thing as a regular attendee of NASA events was untill I went to group 3 I didn't have time to take in the run groups. Saturday if I wasnt in classroom I was out on the track or checking over the car hydrating and relaxing a little.

The only race I caught with NASA was usually their mini enduro they tend to run at the end of sunday.

WDC would have a hell of a time going restricted regional. The only viable option anyone proposed was splitting up the racing. So half the groups raced one race weekend and the other half took the next date. I didnt like that, it means 2 points races in one weekend and then 2 months to the next race. Great if I break after the last race, horrible if I cannot make that one race weekend (out of any chance of a points race.) Not to mention the people you miss because you never see them at the track anymore.

Right now from the looks of it WDC is trying to schedule with enough elbow room to not crunch the club racers out since they are the first place to turn to for instruction. However, I support those in our PDX group who do not want to solely focus on only club racers ad instructors. He doesn't mind them instructing, but he wants to get current marque club instructors interested in doing the same for SCCA.

I think for WDC lets just run an event so we can work out whatever lessons learned that we could not get from other regions. From there we can figure out how to intergrate it with club racing weekends in the future.

[RSTPerformance]

Dave, great thoughts, it should be used more effectivey as a tool to recruite more members as drivers and as workers.

My thoughts, although I bet I get slamed for this one :wacko:

Replace the test days prior to Race weekends with a part testing and part PDE:

Group 1 Closed wheel testers - Limit Entrants.
Group 2 Open wheel testers - Limits Entrans if needed.
Group 3 PDE - Limit Entrants and Beginier Skill Level.
Group 4 PDE - Limit Entrants and Experienced Skill Level.

9:00am - 9:20am: Group 1
9:20am - 9:40am: Group 2
9:40am - 10:00am: Group 3
10:00am - 10:20am: Group 4
10:20am - 10:40am: Group 1
10:40am - 11:00am: Group 2
11:00am - 11:20am: Group 3
11:20am - 11:40am: Group 4
11:40am - 12:00noon: Buffer for cleanup time, possibly start lunch early.
12:00am - 1:00pm: Lunch
1:00pm - 1:20pm: Group 1
1:20pm - 1:40pm: Group 2
1:40pm - 2:00pm Group 3
2:00pm - 2:20pm: Group 4
2:20pm - 2:40pm Group 1
2:40pm - 3:00pm: Group 2
3:00pm - 3:20 pm: Group 3
3:20pm - 3:40pm: Group 4
3:40pm - 4:00pm: Group 1
4:00pm - 4:20pm: Group 2
4:20pm - 4:40pm: Group 3
4:40pm - 5:00pm: Group 4
5:00pm - 5:30pm: Group 1
5:30pm - 6:00pm: Group 2 & 4

Group 1, 2, and 4 would get five 20 minute sessions and one 30 minute session.
Group 3 would get 5 20 minute sessions wich is probably enough for the car and driver if they are a beginer.

Offer the test day free to the first X # of drivers who volunteer to be instructors.

Offer a discount to drivers/entrants for that weekends race if they volunteer to work a station, grid or any of the other numerouse positions needed. Pay the volunteers who run the event and don't race themselves. All the other organizations do.

Offer a 25% discount for the PDE to those who volunteer to work the rest of the weekend.

Raymond

[JamesB]

Now thats an idea that could be worked into things. But again for DC that means getting instructors, and ones that can or will take off from work since our race weekends.

Right now it seems the tentative PDX for WDC is the sunday after the 12 hour. Thats actually not a bad idea as many of us sleep out there anyway due to the late race. Sure it will be rough on us in the morning....oh wait im usually up till 1-2 am on a race weekend and still up when the engines start.

[itracer]

Replace the test days prior to Race weekends with a part testing and part PDE:
[/b]

Most test days are run by the track. Not SCCA. SCCA run days require workers and $$ for the track. Also, some tracks do not have test days prior to races (LRP).

I thought the PDX at NHIS this last year was done well. I woudl have prefered another day of racing, but since it was a holiday (Memorial Day) we still had a full race weekend. Then I was able to hang around and help with the PDX.

[dickita15]

That is a great idea for WDC to use that Sunday. NER started last year on the Monday of Memorial Day. We had a regional on Saturday and Sunday and the PDE on Monday. That way we were able to get enough drivers to stick around for one more day to instruct. One of the big keys to the new PDE program is that we will be able to grow instructors from within the PDE rank. If the roadracing program has to do all the work for a PDE program it will never grow beyond a novelty. PDE has to grow a constituency of its own.

PDE is vitally important to SCCA. Right now someone can start in Solo but then we send them off to others for the “next step” hoping they will come back to SCCA if they decide to go wheel to wheel.

[JamesB]

Right PDE does need to grow from inside as the marque clubs have. But that doesnt mean we cant put adds up and offer the same thing the marque clubs do to get their instructors. But even then, the marque clubs have their fair share of racers as instructors. workers usually come from a deal with the local tracks as I never see recruitment calls for that.

[nlevine]

When I was asked to be chief instructor at the NER PDX this past Memorial Day, I was worried that, at least here in the Northeast, the market would be a bit saturated given the marque clubs, COM, SCDA, etc.. I was pleasantly surprised to find, however, that there's a "captive" crowd of SCCA folks looking to do track events - lots of solo II folks, race crew, etc who don't belong to other clubs..

So, the issue isn't lack of student interest. The biggest issue is getting instructors. Combining race and PDX events in one weekend makes things pretty busy - having the PDX follow a race weekend worked pretty well (even though I would have liked a couple of additional instructors), and several of the novice instructors actually said they had fun and would instruct again. There is a cadre of trained instructors around - many who came up through the formal marque-club instructor training programs, but with the number of clubs around, that group is spread pretty thin. Most of the marque clubs have to run on weekdays due to track availability, so you're asking a volunteer crew to take time off work to instruct. Adding additional weekday events as has been suggested here would make it harder to get sufficient instructors. I liked the holiday weekend format, but we need to bolster the group we have with additional personnel, or build more instructors from within. For racers acting as instructors, though, instructor track time cannot be considered "test and tune" time - some of the most effective instructing can happen when you take students around during instructor sessions and talk them through laps at speed. It's the students who are paying for the day, so they deserve to get 100% of instructor attention.

Just my $0.02 (or more like $0.10 according to my wife)..
-noam

[JamesB]

I think the idea was not that instructors would be test and tuning, but those that need to test and tune still have their time.

[JoshS]

FWIW, the double national that we ran this year (or was it last year?) up in Seattle (Pacific Raceways) had one or two PDE groups. So this isn't an entirely new idea.

[gran racing]

Norm, speaking primarily from a New England standpoint but I'm sure this relates to many other regions, maybe we could eliminate the Friday qualifing race days and have everything happen on Sat. There are plenty of Sat. only events, so it is possible. Then use that Friday for PDEs. Now that the racing event is only on Sat. and PDE entrants are helping to pay for the two day track rental, reduce the entry fee for the Sat. race. Since the racing event is the next day, it makes things much easier for racers to instruct since they'd have to be at the track the next day anyways. While at it, offer students free entry to the Sat. race.

To further entice racers to instruct, it's absolutely necessary to provide them track time, but maybe there are a few other perks which could be offered. This may sound a little silly, but it who knows, it might work: Advertise something like "Coach future racers, get free track time, and reserve the best paddock spots for the racing weekend!" At tracks like LRP, it's tough to get the paved paddock spots. Only allow instructors to reserve (or set-up) on that Friday until after the event then allow other racers into the paddock area to claim their spots.

Going along with the PDE and having instructors from within the club, SCCA really needs to get on board with a mentor program. Yet another thing NASA does very well.

[Greg Amy]

Dave, don't think I'm automatically poo-pooing your ideas, because I wholly support the concept of a PDE/Regional combination. But I don't think this will work...


...maybe we could eliminate the Friday qualifing race days and have everything happen on Sat...then use that Friday for PDEs.[/b]

I *hate* single-day events, primarily because of reduced track time and the significant possibility of the last three groups getting their races shorted to, like, two laps. Single-day events are probably the least-attended ones in the division.

Then, if you take away the practice/qualifying for Friday, I'm not going to take a day of vacation from work and pay for another hotel night (or drive my V-10 van 3 hours round-trip) to instruct at a PDE. I'll be there bright and early in the morning on Saturday for the race day...

Greg

[gran racing]

I was actually thinking more about Lime Rock and other highly attended events. With the groups I instruct with, there are too many instructors for LRP HPDE days. The organizations actually have to turn instructors away.

I disagree with you on the Friday qualifying & "practice" days. The way these days are run, it always seems like a waste. I hate taking a day off of work for these events.


I *hate* single-day events, primarily because of reduced track time...[/b]

Not picking on you, but this is a very interesting comment since you'd get more track time on Friday with an event like this. With the clubs I instruct with, we average 1 hour and 45 minutes of track time on one day. In many areas including the N.E., NASA's instructor run group has open passing rules.


Then, if you take away the practice/qualifying for Friday, I'm not going to take a day of vacation from work and pay for another hotel night (or drive my V-10 van 3 hours round-trip) to instruct at a PDE.[/b]

If this is true, then you probably wouldn't attend a PDE only event which would be held randomly during the week anyways, no? In this case you could get your 6.5 mpg :P traveling to the track which you'd be doing anyways, just a day earlier vs. doing it in addition to a race weekend & a PDE day. I think there would be a higher likelyhood of people being more willing to take a day off from work to instruct if it piggybacked a race.

[Greg Amy]

...you'd get more track time on Friday with an event like this...[/b]

See, NOW you're thinking. Bill it NOT as "come to instruct" but as "come to instruct and you'll get up to two hours of track testing time for free." It's all in the marketing.

OK, I'm there.


...then you probably wouldn't attend a PDE only event which would be held randomly during the week anyways, no?[/b]

Correct. Since starting club racing (versus the Audi, BMW, and PDA events I did to get my "hits" before) I have to ration time off work and money spent. I don't think I've instructed with any of these groups - except on weekends - since re-starting racing.

And - for your information! - we averaged over **7** miles per gallon. 7.04, to be exact... :P

[JamesB]

Now that I am instructing like Greg I have to ration my days off. I luck out that I have EVERY federal holiday off. But still I already ran out of vacation days this year due to a family emergency. So I need to be careful of that. But weekend events sure I will instruct. The PDE tentative for after the 12 hour I will gladly instruct as I will already be out there in some capacity.

[bldn10]

At some tracks a 1-day PDX could cost over $10,000. Do the math. :(

We've had a couple here at Memphis in conjuntion w/ double Regional weekends and we purposefully made it very attractive - something like $125 including a full SCCA membership - and got a dozen or so cars the first year and maybe 20 the next. We only ran 1 group so they got plenty of track time, but you really need at least 2 groups, cutting track time in half. Instructing at those events was a blast because you get to see and drive some cars that you wouldn't otherwise. I drove an early 911 at one and it was my first time ever in a 911. I'd heard the horror stories about the rear end coming around and was somewhat apprehensive. Now I know why that car has been so popular - real fun to drive and easy to control. At another I drove a VW R32 - wow, what a fun and capable car! Other guys got to drive Vipers, 427 Cobra replicas, Z06 Vettes, etc.

A problem the Club and most Regions have in general is promotion - of club racing, autocross, PDX, everything. People just don't get the word what is available.

I was pretty amazed that the PDX at the ARRC, which I assume got some promo by the Atlanta Region, which does a better job than most, had only 20 or so cars. In a metro area of - what, 3 million people - only 20 wanted to drive their street car on at famous track like Road Atlanta during one of the biggest Club Racing events of the season? Something wrong there.

[ggnagy]

Do other tracks offer their own PDE programs the way Summit Point has their Friday At The Track (FATT) program? Many of the instructors are SCCA racers as well. There is a large contingant of SRX7 drivers who instruct and actively recruit new blood for the class. I am wondering if the SCCA can compete with BSR given the same program but extra overhead. In DC regions case, I think we'd be better served with a multi level PDX over on the Shenandoah, combining a "school" day and a TT day held on a non-MARRS weekend. That might attract the Pennsylvania Hillclimb Association (PHA) drivers as well as the MARRS racers.

Am I wrong in thinking that in the East, NASA used that format (school and TT) before the racing program started?


ps. My understanding is that MARRS has unoffically gone "restricted regional" by eliminating FA/FC and distributing the rest of wings and things into FV/F500 anf SRF. Down to 8 run groups. What will we do with all the extra time. :P

[JamesB]

ps. My understanding is that MARRS has unoffically gone "restricted regional" by eliminating FA/FC and distributing the rest of wings and things into FV/F500 anf SRF. Down to 8 run groups. What will we do with all the extra time. :P
[/b]

Close, but no we are still 9 run groups so no extra time. However the BoD asked the comp comitee to readdress the issue so nothing is solid.

Current tentative run groups for MARRS:

1) Spec Miata
2) SS Miata
3) ITB/ITC
4) ITS/ITA/ITR (I'm gonna get creamed....)
5) SRX7/IT7/SSB/SSC
6) Small Bore/T4 (new class)
7) Big Bore/T1/T2/P1/P2 (the last two are the two new classes for World Challenge cars)
8) SRF/CSR/DSR
9) FV/FF/CF/F500 (all open wheel)

I also think that yes WDC can work around FATT and suceed. As we do events we expand them to include Track Trials (level 2 or whatever thats under the current full caged stuff.) Recently a west coast company did exact that format. Instruction on Saturday, time trials on Sunday and they had a decent crowd out there. So I think its plausable that PDX and above can bring something in. But again, just like club racing its exposure, without it nothing will happen.

I am actually working on a letter to my drivers rep and the BoD about the possiblity of asking the WDC graphics people to come up with a PDF to advertise the MARRS dates as well as the PDX dates. Then just ask the local vendors, drivers, mechics and sponsors to post them up in waiting Areas to get the word out for the 2007 season.

[backformore]

Bill,

I don't know the exact count, but I was an instructor at the ARRC PDX and I think that more than 20 showed up. There were 3 run groups and I think the first 2 groups had about 20 each. Both of the Atlanta PDX have been pretty well attended. They get very good participation from the large soloII community.

For those not familiar, Rd Atl has started holding the PDX (2 sessions) during Sunday's mandatory quiet time. The solo folks really like it and feel that it is a good value (about $125). It really makes good use of that quiet time.

[bldn10]

Sorry, I saw one group and assumed that was it. I did not know about the PDX at the ARRC but I tell you, next year I just may rent a street car and get John Williams to show me how he does it. :D

[chuck schultz]

I should note, here, that the Atlanta Region PDXes during quiet time were initially implemented to reward race volunteers, who, with 2 days of service, received reduced-price entry fees for the PDX ($20 for 2-20-minute sessions.) The kicker is that race drivers on site for the weekend volunteer to work corners and instruct. It's a great way to give folks on both sides of the ARMCO a taste of how the other half lives. It can be an eye-opener for both groups.

If workers don't fill out the field, slots are available for others for $100.

I've done 2 of these, and it's a heckuva lot better worker goodie than an event t-shirt or a one-use rain poncho! Thanks, drivers! :happy204: