Scary crash at Sebring Test Day

[rob22]

Rob "Peg Leg" Wansley's ITS RX7 was a complete write off after a Friday Test Day incident on the Sebring Long Course in prep for the Turkey Trot.

Wansley and GT-1 National Champ Phil Simms got together in the esses that lead into 16 and on to the back straight. Wansley's car vaulted over the inside retaining wall clearing it by over six feet witnesses said. The car apparently flipped several times. I heard Rob was transported to the hospital for precaution, but is out and ok. He was at the track on Saturday. Simms was OK as well.

Simms' Rocketsports Jag that won the runoffs was severely damaged and will have go back to Rocketsports for a rebuild.

Rob's car was "diamonded", shortened, and flattened with plenty of Jag CF still sticking out of it. I couldn't see really anything on the thing that would be of future use.

There is obvious disagreement about the cause.

Thank God both drivers are ok.

Bosco

[Knestis]

Any time a GT1 car and an ITS car are involved in a test day incident, something is not right. Unless the IT car was spun and stationary on track in a blind location.

K

[zracre]

thats terrible...Rob had a rebuild after Daytona as well (May I think)...I think that is a new tub. I dislike being on the track with the GT stuff...I have marks on my car from the ARRC test day where a few of those things bounced off me trying to win whatever race they had in their heads...

[its66]

<EDIT>

More on the incident later....

Regardless of fault, I would hope that ALL of us would check on the well being of the other person/people involved, especially with an incident as serious as this....

Bosco&#39;s description as a "total write off" is the understatement of the day.

Evan, yes, this is the second time he has been gathered up and totalled in just over a year. Missed you there. Ronie did you Acura boys proud.

[rob22]

IT cars, spec Miata&#39;s and the like just don&#39;t belong on the track at the same time as GT cars. Obviously they make their speed in such different ways. I did the same test day last year in my new GT-1 stock car with about 30 spec miatas and various other stuff out there. It was totally useless as a test session. They were in my way and I in theres. Did half of one thirty minute session and parked it and let my more GT experienced partner try it. He agreed. Useless and dangerous.

[Greg Amy]

Same thing happened at the ARRC this year with those idiot GT cars. Wasted most of my sessions trying to simply stay away from them while they parked it in the corners and screamed by on the straights.

I&#39;m usually not phased by other cars, but these guys scared the crap out of me. Totally unpredictable, totally idiotic.

[dspillrat]

I&#39;m usually not phased by other cars, but these guys scared the crap out of me. Totally unpredictable, totally idiotic.
[/b]


AMEN....:wacko:

[rob22]

It&#39;s not that they are necessarily idiotic, GT-1, SPO&#39;s are point and shoot cars, while IT cars are momentum cars. They just don&#39;t co exist on the track well. I have both an ITS and the stock car, most of what I learned driving the Nissans over the years just doesn&#39;t apply to a 650 hp stock car on 10 inch tires.

SCCA doesn&#39;t put GT-1&#39;s with IT&#39;s for the obvious reasons, track operators of these independent test days will and I believe they are culpable.

[Greg Amy]

Rob, I understand what you&#39;re saying, but I find it INCREDIBLY hard to believe that a tube-frame, race-suspension, rear-wheel-drive, 2600(?) pound GT car on 10-inch racing slicks cannot go through a corner faster than a production-based, McPherson-strut, front-wheel-drive, 2530-pound street car on 8.5-inch street radials...

Love to try it some time to be proven wrong, though.

[rob22]

Yeah, Greg I think you need to try it to understand. First of all, GT-1 Stock cars are an entirely different animal than full GT-1 Corvettes and the like despite the weight being similar on the late model types.
14" wide rubber on each side, a wing, penske shocks, much wider track, better down force etc make them MUCH easier to drive than the stock car types that are becoming prevalent.

I know you know this, but it bears repeating, that on 10" tires, the traction under braking is so limited in the heavy braking zones that you have to be very smooth, careful and controlled. Same thing going through and off of slow corners with these beasts. With all the torque, if you don&#39;t roll into the gas off the corner you will do a donut in a heartbeat. However, they are incredibly fun and rewarding to drive when you do it right.

I did not witness the incident between Simms and Rob, but I do know that both are excellent drivers.

I tend to think a lot of things come into play when you have such disparate speeds of vehicles. Rob could check his mirrors find nothing there and in a blink have Simms all over him. Gt-1 guys need to realize also that slower cars can&#39;t drive looking out the back window all the time and the responsibility to pass cleanly resides mostly with them when they are on the track with cars so much slower.

[Colin Harmer]

That was a BIG crash, there&#39;s no question. The RX7 got hit so hard in the back that there was still a large part of the Jag&#39;s hood in the bumper when they carried it away on the front end loader they use for moving the jersey barriers at the track.

It&#39;s my understanding that the driver of the Jag made no effort to find out if the other driver was OK, nor to even to come over and shake hands over it. That&#39;s the part that "rots" me the most.

Just my $0.02 worth....

[dspillrat]

Same thing happened at the ARRC this year with those idiot GT cars. Wasted most of my sessions trying to simply stay away from them while they parked it in the corners and screamed by on the straights.

I&#39;m usually not phased by other cars, but these guys scared the crap out of me. Totally unpredictable, totally idiotic.
[/b]

After reading my earlier blanket agreement with GregA, I must amend this to say the slower end of these fields GT1,SPO,TCC,etc...are the cars we struggle with, or become frustrated with. We must allow patience with these drivers, most newer or inexperianced drivers. My frustration is when a much faster car "straight line handling" over takes before or at entrance to turns, they forget that we have same cornering, and there is another straight just around the corner to pass at.

Many times no choice but to share track with these beasts...gotta get along..

David Spillman

[benspeed]

I&#39;ve been racing my SPO stock car for one season. Ran ITS for 5 full seasons. It is absolutely true that you can check your mirrors and see a GT1 car 200 yards behind and the next moment they are blowing by you. I decided to cut an AS car a break going into the chicane at Watkins Glen-figured I&#39;d pass him coming out of the corner where my power would carry me by no problem. The G1 car I saw in my mirrors passed both of us going into the chicane - couldn&#39;t believe the closing speed - the guy could drive and his car was a work of art.

If the GT1 car hammered the ITS car in the rear I know what the cops/insurance/DMV would say....

SCCA says something along the lines of "the overtaking car has the responsibility of making a safe pass"...

I don&#39;t know either person but it stinks for both of them. Who wants to spend the winter doing repairs instead of improving?

[Mazmarc63]

I really don&#39;t have much to add except a huge thank you to Mike Vansteenburg for building the cage that saved Rob from a terrible fate.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/Mazmarc63/20crash_6-1.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/Mazmarc63/20crash_5.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/Mazmarc63/20crash_3.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/Mazmarc63/20crash_2.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/Mazmarc63/20crash_1.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/Mazmarc63/20crash_4.jpg

[Knestis]

It&#39;s obviously not entirely clear in the pics but it looks like there was some collapse of the roof on the 7. Particularly with those steeply sloped A-pillars, it might be a good idea to consider putting an element in there in compression - from the top of that pillar to the floor at the front mounting pad.

K

[seckerich]

[quote]
I really don&#39;t have much to add except a huge thank you to Mike Vansteenburg for building the cage that saved Rob from a terrible fate.

I don&#39;t know the driver Mark but I have some S5 shells if he needs one to rebuild. Drop me a PM if I can help.

[Hammer]

The car didn&#39;t just clear the retaining wall, but also a 12 foot high catch fence. If you saw the fence you could not picture a car being able to clear it under any circumstance. The fence was undamaged. You can imagine the rate of speed the GT1 car had to hit the RX7 from behind to cause this to happen.


It is disturbing that the GT1 driver never checked on the condition of Rob after the crash, especially considering Rob was at the track until Sunday after being released from the hospital on Friday afternoon. If you saw the height of the fence and the condition of the car, you would wonder if the driver survived the crash. My faith in my fellow racers was restored though seeing how many drivers, crew members and spectators checked on Rob after hearing about crash and seeing the car. Many of these people had never met Rob before. The hardest thing any of us will ever do as drivers is make the walk to a fellow racer after being involved in a metal to metal incident that could have been or was your fault. If you can not make that walk then you should not be racing.

[rob22]

While I believe Phil should have personally went down to see Rob and check on him and talk it over, it does not mean that he didn&#39;t check on his condition. He may have done that through track officials, EMS or some other source. Lets not forget that the Jag also crashed hard and reportedly was close to a write off. (It&#39;s alot harder to write off 200K). I am just glad both are physically OK.

[Knestis]

The kind of bar I mention above...

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/mk3.2/newpaint1.jpg

More at http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/build4.php

K

[Rob May]

HOLY SON OF A @#%Q!

How is Rob doing? That is absolutely unreal. I&#39;m with others about the coming and checking in part. Marc, Jim, please tell him I&#39;m thinking about him.

[Chris Wire]

I saw Rob shortly after these photos were taken and he seemed to have command of all his faculties. Understandably he mentioned he was a bit sore.

To underscore Marc&#39;s point, the cage did it&#39;s job. The forward downtube did bend as Kirk mentioned, but the weld held up perfectly. More to Kirk&#39;s point, I had the same thoughts as I was inspecting the damage, but after looking at my own car last night, it may be more difficult to add after-the-fact as opposed to being incorporated into an original design.

The halos on the RX7s are very short, which extends the length of the downtube and closes up the angle. The steeply raked windshields factor into this also, as well as the deep dashboard. The downside to adding a bar as Kirk showed is that it puts it in very close proximity to the driver&#39;s head, arms, etc. This may be one of those "lesser of the two evils" things however.

I personally don&#39;t know if Rob is a religious man, but it&#39;s plain to me that God was looking out for him that day.

[Richy Gonzalez]

"...it&#39;s plain to me that God was looking out for him that day"

No doubt about that. I&#39;m glad Rob&#39;s okay!

[Mike Guenther]

I just spoke with Rob (Wed. morning). He said that he is still just a little bit sore, but otherwise he is back to normal. He told me about flying over the fence, landing on the right front corner, tumbling and skidding along on the roof. It is incredable that the car wasn&#39;t a completely twisted mess. It surely would have been had it been a street car without the roll cage. Rob said that he was told that the Jag&#39;s data acquisition system showed it was traveling 140 mph when it hit him entering turn 14 at the apex.

Hollywood mentioned mentioned that the roll cage was built at ISC Racing in Winter Haven. I don&#39;t know if Mike V actually had a hand in building it or if the credit should go to Chuck who does a lot of the welding and cage building at ISC. To fly over cement barriers and clear a chain link catch fence and land upside down and the top hoop has only the small deflection the pictures show, is a testament to how a good cage can save a life that a street car accident without a cage would have likely resulted. Chuck "You Da Man". Good work.

[sscmini]

Can you please tell me how the GT1 car hit the ITS car at 140 mph in the rear???? If that happened then why is the rear of the car the only thing left of the ITS car??? Can you also tell me where the tire marks on the side of the ITS came from??? Maybe they are from where the ITS car came down on the GT1 car as they are entering the apex for turn 14??? I do have a photo of the tire marks on the right side of Phil&#39;s car from the ITS car or you can see the tire mark on the left side of the ITS car on the photos already posted. I think you will see Phil was in front of the ITS car by a half a car length when the ITS car came down and hit Phil. This immediatley sent Phil to the right and the concrete wall. As far as Phil checking in on the other driver. He did see him out walking around at the crash scene before leaving for the hospital. I also know for a fact that the ITS guy did not come by to check on Phil&#39;s well being.

It was a very horrible crash to see after the fact on the track as I drove by on track. I am also one of the slower cars on the track at a test day. You should know as a slower car you are not out there to win a race in your head, and that you have to watch your mirror at all times, just as the faster cars have to watch out for the slower cars in front of them. While I say this. I find it very hard to believe you could not hear or see Phil coming at this point on the track.

[Greg Amy]

And your identity is...?

I have no direct knowledge on this particular crash, but I can tell you - from DIRECT experience - that it is extremely difficult to see a car bearing down on you with a 50+ MPH difference. You look up, you see nothing, you turn into a corner, and WHAM! there goes a GT-1 car by you. PArk on the shoulder of an interstate some time to get a relative effect of that kind of speed. Now try merging directly into the traffic without getting punted.

At this year&#39;s pre-ARRC test day we had the same problem, and I myself nearly got into it with a half-dozen cars or more. Take a peek: nothing there. Turn into a corner: HOLY CRAP! where did that big V-8 car come from??

Then again, who&#39;s got the ultimate responsibility for the safe pass...?

I&#39;d have a lot more respect for your opinion if 1) you didn&#39;t sign up just now and make that your first post, and 2) you identified yourself outside of an anonymous sign-in name. Until then, I&#39;m going to assume you&#39;re just here to cause trouble... - GA

[sscmini]

I am Jill Urso and I thought that would be clear as I am Phil&#39;s daughter and run a mini. I do have a screen name from over 5 years ago, just dont know it from not running ITA anymore. I was told that there was talk on the board of the wreck and wanted to put my 2 cents in since I was on the track when the wreck occured. I have always done test days and for a long time was the one of slowest ep or fp cars (Acura Integra) on track so I can speak about being over taken by faster cars. When you do a test day with faster cars you should watch your mirrors more than normal....

Please take a look at the tire marks on Phil&#39;s Car at Simmsmotorsports.com under the photo section.

[Greg Amy]

Thank you for identifying yourself, Jill.

Again, I WAS NOT THERE, but I know the track. I also know that T14 ("Bishop Bend") is a kink along one of the longest straights. That means there&#39;s some serious speed along it, full acceleration coming out of Tower Turn. It doesn&#39;t take a lot of imagination to understand that there would be a TON of speed differential through there between a full-boat, pro-built Rocketsports GT-1 car and a club racing Improved Touring S car. I know, I&#39;ve been there. Given the speed differential and the fact there was a collision, unless the GT-1 car was tootling around in third gear, it&#39;s easy to assume that the GT-1 car tried to stuff in a high-speed pass in a tight area on a car running probably 50-60 mph slower than him. Maybe he assumed the slower car saw him; maybe he thought he could make the pass before the ITS car turned in regardless if the guy didn&#39;t see him. Don&#39;t know, you can ask him.

But it doesn&#39;t matter. Given the information presented in this forum, it is my OPINION that this was an extremely poor place to attempt a pass on a significantly slower car, ESPECIALLY on a test day. I don&#39;t care if the passing car had made it alongside the slower car by the apex; with a speed differential as great as that we&#39;re talking MILLISECONDS of difference between completely behind and completely in front. I&#39;m betting the ITS car never saw him coming.

Fortunately, no one was seriously injured...

I hope that a lot of folks learned something from this:

- It&#39;s a test day, and you&#39;re on the track with much faster cars. Keep your head on a swivel &#39;cause you never know what&#39;s coming up on you and where they may try to pass;
- It&#39;s a test day, and you&#39;re on the track with significantly slower cars. Don&#39;t expect that everyone&#39;s heads are on a swivel trying to stay out of your way just &#39;cause you&#39;re faster;
- It&#39;s a test day, and we really should not be putting cars with such disparate speeds on the ttrack at the same time...

[Knestis]

... Maybe they are from where the ITS car came down on the GT1 car as they are entering the apex for turn 14??? ... I think you will see Phil was in front of the ITS car by a half a car length when the ITS car came down and hit Phil. ...[/b]

Setting aside any possiblity of bias, we are NOT talking about a racing pass under green between two cars in the same class - so the classic "half a length" defense is just not going to cut it.

What this means, even accepting that all of your contentions are accurate, is that a car with VASTLY superior braking, cornering, and acceleration attempted to pass a much slower car between the passee&#39;s turn in point and the apex, on what sounds like a very fast corner. During a test day.

I agree that even with your additional evidence, this was an ill-advised pass attempt.

K

[Bruce Shafer]

Can you please tell me how the GT1 car hit the ITS car at 140 mph in the rear???? If that happened then why is the rear of the car the only thing left of the ITS car??? Can you also tell me where the tire marks on the side of the ITS came from??? Maybe they are from where the ITS car came down on the GT1 car as they are entering the apex for turn 14??? [/b]

OK, then please explain the chunk of Rocketsports hood lodged in the back of Robs car?

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/Mazmarc63/20crash_3.jpg

[Mike Spencer]

Can you please tell me how the GT1 car hit the ITS car at 140 mph in the rear???? If that happened then why is the rear of the car the only thing left of the ITS car??? Can you also tell me where the tire marks on the side of the ITS came from??? <snip> [/b]

OK, first off;

1) I wasn&#39;t there

2) I&#39;ve never even driven the track

However, I share Jill&#39;s confusion with regard to how good the back of the S car looks. I&#39;m only thinking out loud and applying some basic physics here so feel free to shoot my theory full of holes.

Having said that, in order to launch a car that weighs over a ton over that fence you have to hit it from below, not from behind. We&#39;re talking a fly ball here, not a line drive. I suspect that if Rob was turning in he may have been trailbraking as well. That would jack the left rear of the car up somewhat. Let&#39;s further assume that Phil knew the impact was imminent. Good chance he was on the brakes HARD! That drops the front of the Jag down. Not a whole lot, but noticably. You now have a large fast-moving wedge being driven underneath the left rear of a car that is (relatively) high off the ground.

That wouldn&#39;t explain the tire mark on the driver&#39;s side, but it would get the RX-7 off the ground with minimal rear-end damage.

Like everyone else I am extremely happy that all parties involved seem to be alright. I&#39;m also hoping that there is something each of us can learn from this and use the next time we strap in.

I have been on track with GT-1 cars (I drive an IT-7) and I completely agree that you look and there&#39;s nothing there... you look again and he&#39;s right on top of you. Also, a friend was driving my car at a test day at VIR a couple of years ago and was on track with a Daytona Prototype. I wouldn&#39;t wish that on my worst enemy!

I wish I had a better answer, but we take risks every time we get in the car. Professionals driving LMP-1 cars occasionally misjudge a pass when they&#39;re going around GT-2 cars at Le Mans and bad things happen.

Again, thank God everyone&#39;s OK!

[handfulz28]

You should know as a slower car[/b]

What kind of crap is that? As a "slower car" all you should have to do is drive the line.



While I say this. I find it very hard to believe you could not hear or see Phil coming at this point on the track.[/b]

Jill, you&#39;ve been on track plenty of times...do you not remember how loud a rotary is? I can&#39;t hear MY OWN car when I&#39;m near a rotary, let alone a muffled GT1.

Too bad Jill and/or her father probably won&#39;t come back to read this. Race day, test day, practice, qualifying, on the street...it&#39;s the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PASSING DRIVER to ensure a clean pass. If there&#39;s contact, it defaults to the passing driver to step up and apologize.

Was there no in-car footage from either car? Or is too incriminating to share? For such an accomplished driver, it sounds like a bonehead move and not being man enough to say "sorry pal, my mistake".

Good luck, have fun,
Michael

[sscmini]

First off this was a very unfortunate incident and thankfully both drivers walked away, that is the most important thing to remember. with that said. phil remembers rob going out wide entering the corner, what he would consider "off line". when phil saw that he went for the pass, as they got to the apex the rx-7 came into the door of the jag, spinning the jag to the right and toward the outside wall. that is the last thing phil recalls, so no one can explain how the cf from the jag got into the tail light of the rx-7 or how the rx-7 got over the wall. i would assume the two cars had a secondary impact once they got into the retaining wall. phil wrote off the incident as just that a racing incident, the two cars got together going to the apex. phil thought the car saw him and went wide to give him the pass, maybe that was robs normal line thru the corner? it doesnt much matter now, except people who were&#39;nt there want to push all the blame on one person where it does not belong. Ask anyone who has ever raced against phil club racing or in the Trans-Am series he has Never pushed cars around to get position or a win.

I can&#39;t believe some of the comments on this board, that the jag hit the rx-7 in the rear at 140mph and sent it over the wall, or that there was in car video from phils car and it would be too incriminating to show. phil uses in car data not video. or that a GT1 car is muffled, its kind of hard to keep 700hp quiet especially when the exhaust comes out the right side door. which by the way was also bent from the initial impact.

its time to put away the pitch forks and torches

[StephenB]

its time to put away the pitch forks and torches
[/b]

I don&#39;t know anyone involved at all but I totally agree with this comment. The only thing anyone could have done that neither driver did was go to the actual person and see how they were doing. I think that it was a racing incident after seeing all the pictures and after hereing both sides of the story throuh hearsay.

I&#39;m glad both parties are alright and that in the end is what matters.

Does anyone have any pictures of the rollcage so we can turn this into a learning experience and example of cages.


Stephen

[xr4racer]

Since everyone else who was not there is chiming in, I might as well. I have a problem calling it a RACING incident during a test day. Most test days I have done the first thing everyone says is this is not a race and be very careful and sure of your passes. Usually test days do not have a full staff of corner workers, so I doubt Rob had been shown a blue flag, again I may be wrong. This sort of thing does happen at test days, just not very often. Having had the pleasure of being on the track at the regional before the runoffs at Mid Ohio with the fastest GT1&#39;s in the country, I understand the enormous closing speed involved and the possibility of contact.

matt

ITS #7

[sscmini]

WELL speaking of fastest GT1 cars in the country. You can watch phil this thursday at 12:00 pm on speed channel WIN THE RUNOFFS!!!!!!!

[sscmini]

{What kind of crap is that? As a "slower car" all you should have to do is drive the line.}

Once again as stated above the slower car should have to look in their mirrors and not just drive their line. As me being one of the slower cars you can not just drive you line or almost every weekend I went to the track my car would have come back looking like Rob&#39;s did. I would agree that most are taught to drive the line while being passed, but they dont tell you to do so at all cost and not to know where the faster car is. Phil has always told me to hold my line while being passed, as it helps the faster guys know where I will be. That being said you can not hold the line once you have gotten off line and another car is now there.

{Jill, you&#39;ve been on track plenty of times...do you not remember how loud a rotary is? I can&#39;t hear MY OWN car when I&#39;m near a rotary, let alone a muffled GT1.}

Are you kidding??? Have you not ever been on track with a GT1 Car?? A Rotary is not quite the same as a GT1 car when it comes to the sound.

{Too bad Jill and/or her father probably won&#39;t come back to read this. Race day, test day, practice, qualifying, on the street...it&#39;s the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PASSING DRIVER to ensure a clean pass. If there&#39;s contact, it defaults to the passing driver to step up and apologize.}

Why would I not come back to read this???

{Was there no in-car footage from either car? Or is too incriminating to share? For such an accomplished driver, it sounds like a bonehead move and not being man enough to say "sorry pal, my mistake".}

Where is Rob&#39;s video??

[Greg Amy]

...being one of the slower cars you can not just drive you line...[/b]

WRONG! WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

Phil is right: it is IMPERATIVE that you drive your line. Absent any hard evidence (point by, for example) the ONLY expectation a passing driver should have is that you&#39;ll be on the line, every time. If I&#39;m coming up on slower traffic I EXPECT them on the line, unless they give me indication to the contrary.

The ONLY predictable place on the track is the line; everything else is virtually random. I&#39;m not going to get deep into it, Jill, but not driving the line makes you UNPREDICTABLE and a hazard to yourself and everyone around you.

On edit: Simply to clarify my position in a more reasonable manner. This item is a pet peeve of mine...

[charrbq]

I&#39;ve held back as long as I could on this, but it&#39;s become a pissing contest rather than a race report.

As a driver of a slower car, I learned that no matter how fast I was going, that I needed to watch my mirrors when other classed cars are on the track. That&#39;s in every case. However, an ITS car is not one of the slower cars normally on the track. As such, most of those guys are not used to watching their mirrors as often as a Honda or Mini driver. Even so, ITS cars are fast...plain fast! I driven one, I&#39;ve watched my mirrors, and I&#39;ve been through a corner and onto a straight faster than most any of it had time to register.

A GT1 car closes at a phenomelol rate to anything other than a similar car. As not only an ARRC winning driver, but a professional driver, the driver in question should&#39;ve been aware of the different speeds of the cars and adjusted to such. It&#39;s possible that, given the area of the impact, the ITS driver had checked his mirrors and seen the approaching car and not realized that he was about to be passed. Even if he held his line, as indicated, it might be different in the eyes of the GT1 driver. The faster the car, the more tendency to "point and blast" rather than maintain speed, and that can affect a line.

Regardless of whose fault the incident was at that point on the track, it was a test day, not a race day. There was no one pressing anyone in a race that called for a risky pass. And, within only a few yards of the incident, there lies one of the longest and widest straights in the racing world. The pass could&#39;ve waited only a couple of seconds and been executed with ease. It was an ill advised move that, fortunately, only hit the pocket book. :dead_horse:

[zracre]

I agree Chris...I have seen both drivers race and they are both people that run at the pointy ent of their fields. It sucks that it happened but you can&#39;t change that. just learn from it. It was the passing cars responsibility to make the clean pass. The closing speeds were huge. Phil thought the door was open. Rob prob was driving his line or judged the car would already be past...when it wasn&#39;t he probably continued on as Phil went for it. Just another scenario. You can&#39;t change the outcome so we should look at it and learn from it. GT-1 cars+production based street tire cars=BAD. And yes it was test day and the seconds saved by trying to pass there cost many thousands of dollars. (when the pass could have happened 100 yards ahead)

[dazzlesa]

if you look at a side shot of the car, it looks like the nose of the gt car went under the rx7 and hammered the suspension.
At atlanta during the test it took a couple trips past the starters stand to understand why they were displaying the passing flag.one look in the mirror and nobody, a second glance and a gt car magically appears.
keep your eyes :blink: open with those guys on the track!

[Carlos G]

That was a big moment for both drivers, thank God Rob and Phil are both physically ok.
Just wanted to emphasize that mirrors are our best friend. Use them. Always. Going down the straight, just before turn in at every turn, and on exit. Always be aware of whats behind you and around you. Situational awareness. That should be taught at every drivers school, both SCCA and the Skippy types.
Since I wasn&#39;t standing there watching, I have no clue as to what actually happened there at T- 14, but I can imagine Rob did not see the Jag attempting a pass into the apex or he would not have turned in for the apex at this left hand kink.
If you have raced Sebring you know these kinks offer passing opportunities on both entry and exit. ITS cars routinely pass there as you are going just over 100 MPH with slower ITC, ITB and SM folks going about 80 MPH. You are flat from the entry of Tower turn until just past the grass patch braking point at T 15. When coming up on slower traffic into the left kink at T- 14, you hope and pray that the car in front has looked in their mirror and holds their line. Their present line. As in, keeping your present wide line with your entry so as to allow a safe inside pass or keeping tight with your drift out on exit so as to allow a safe outside pass. If you are driving a ITS car, you will / must pass slower cars there. If you are driving slower cars, you will be passed there. Test day, practice, qual or race.
Please look at your mirrors before you turn in at both kinks and hold your existing line if you see someone coming. Same goes for T-17 and T-1.
In summary, as I now drive one of the "slower cars", I have learned to use my mirrors. Always. Everywhere on track. Don&#39;t want a ITS BMW or RX7 punting me off.
Maybe this explains what happened at the Turkey Trot test day.
Good safe racing to all,
Carlos Gutierrez

[sscmini]

Carlos,

That was the point I was trying to make on here. I know that the ITS guys are most times the fastest cars on track and may not always have to watch their mirrors because they are not use to being passed as much. I also know as a car that raced with ITS guys before, most of you would have made the same move on me in a test day if I would have been there and you had the horsepower too.

I only posted on this forum because it seemed unfair to me that Phil not have a voice and that his driving ability would be questioned. I can let any of you who dont know Phil is not a GT1 drive that points and shoots.

Greg,
I think your are not hearing reason. I agree to hold you line, but you cant when there has been a car that is in that same space. I have always held my line... but moved or not turned in when someone else is there. My only point is if Rob would have checked his mirrors then we would not be talking about this. And I know that if Phil would have waited to pass we would not be talking as well.
My last question for you is on a test day, Have you every passed anyone in any other place than on a straight?

Jill

[zracre]

My last question for you is on a test day, Have you every passed anyone in any other place than on a straight?

Jill
[/quote]

not when it is a high risk pass with tremendous closing speeds. I can see a wreck like this happening in a race when you need to stay ahead of your competition...but test day laps dont win trophies. We should just let this rest. It may have been avoided if either party took action to avoid impact. The point is the GT1 car hit the RX7 while passing him. It is unfortunate that so much was lost so lets stop pointing fingers and try to learn from mistakes and move on!

[latebrake]

Please stay on line. it you run the line i know where you are going to be at any given time and place on track. if you dont you are a lose cannon and no one knows where you may be.
I bet this is a case of two good drivers with fast cars and just made a mistake. I wonder if any one here has ever ran 10 laps anywhere mistake free. sooner or later its going to be the wrong place to make one. fault is all drivers that day at that corner. SCCA will put production cars on track with GT1 cars on test days and theres a real size difference. i wonder if a lotus 7 can even be seen from most GT1 cars just off the side left or right. :114:

[CaptainWho]

i wonder if a lotus 7 can even be seen from most GT1 cars just off the side left or right. :114:[/b]

That&#39;s my biggest fear during CCPS races ... ITS, ITA, ITB, ITC, SM, and ... wait for it ... !SRF! Holy cow, I sometimes have a hard time seeing SRFs from the IT7 car when there&#39;s nothing between us ... numerous times I&#39;ve had them pop out from behind the IT car behind me and we almost collide because even though I&#39;m watching my mirrors, he&#39;s in-freaking-visible when he&#39;s behind another tin top.

[Goodrad]

Bottomline it&#39;s The overtaking cars responsability to get by cleanly, if he had done that on a sanctioned weekend he probably would have been protested and given a severe penalty.

[Butch Kummer]

SCCA will put production cars on track with GT1 cars on test days and theres a real size difference. i wonder if a lotus 7 can even be seen from most GT1 cars just off the side left or right.
[/b]

I&#39;ve been silent on this until now, mainly because I wasn&#39;t there and I&#39;ve never driven the 12-Hour course at Sebring. The above statement is incorrect, however. The test day is run by the track, not SCCA, and they are the ones that decide the mix of cars on the track.

I will use what influence I have with Road Atlanta to add another group for the ARRC test day in 2007. We had SPO (GT-1) cars out there with Miatas and about sixty cars on the track. It may require the sessions to be cut to 20 minutes to fit everyone in, but that time will be better spent if you&#39;re not looking out for traffic at EVERY corner.

You want something scary? In SOPAC they run HP with GT-1 because they have such small car counts.

Butch Kummer

[StephenB]

The point is the GT1 car hit the RX7 while passing him. It is unfortunate that so much was lost so lets stop pointing fingers and try to learn from mistakes and move on!
[/b]


I think this comment is why she posted. and there is always 2 sides to every story.

From the GT1 drivers perspective it seems as though The RX7 actually hit the GT1 car as it came down and hit the Jag in the side.

Again I wasn&#39;t a witness but I don&#39;t think we should be picking on or tearing apart the GT driver. I hate to go against the grain here but it just doesn&#39;t seem fair to me. To me this seems as though it is an accident with no blame that could have been avoided by different decisions by both drivers. I also do not think a protest would have held up... It&#39;s also up to the car being passed to leave racing room.

[JeffYoung]

Accidents happen on track. I understand that. But any accident on a test day is highly suspect. It&#39;s not racing. Relax.

Here, pretty clear to me that on a TEST day the GT1 car had the clearest path to accident avoidance by simplying waiting a few hundred yards to pass in a safer spot. It really seems that simple to me.

[zracre]

[quote]
It may have been avoided if either party took action to avoid impact. The point is the GT1 car hit the RX7 while passing him.

here is the point...

[rob22]

Incidents like this happen in a flash, and they can be avoided, but are sometimes difficult to avoid.
I don&#39;t think we know that the Jag actually hit the RX7. If Phil saw an opening drove it in there and then Rob comes down because he never saw the Jag, I don&#39;t think that qualifies as the Jag hitting the RX7. More like Phil put them in a tight spot and Rob wasn&#39;t as aware as he might have been, and the track management used horrible judgement for putting them on the track at the same time.

I can guarantee you that Phil didn&#39;t think he was making a risky pass that may lead to replacing a 300K Jag.

[Andy Bettencourt]

More like Phil put them in a tight spot and Rob wasn&#39;t as aware as he might have been, and the track management used horrible judgement for putting them on the track at the same time.
[/b]

+1

[Chris Wire]

Can you please tell me how the GT1 car hit the ITS car at 140 mph in the rear???? If that happened then why is the rear of the car the only thing left of the ITS car??? Can you also tell me where the tire marks on the side of the ITS came from??? Maybe they are from where the ITS car came down on the GT1 car as they are entering the apex for turn 14???[/b]


I&#39;ll make these two points and then I&#39;m out. I didn&#39;t witness the incident but I did spend a bit of time going over the RX7 later on, as evidenced by my fat you-know-what in some of the pictures.

POINT 1 - Based on the way the rear suspension was pushed forward and up into the wheelhouse of Rob&#39;s car, it&#39;s pretty evident that the Jag ran into the back corner of the RX7 (in case the hood wasn&#39;t enough to convince you). As far as the tire marks that were mentioned, one should note that the tire mark is very distinct and almost perfectly round. Also, there is very little sheet metal damage to the door. That indicates to me that the cars were traveling at the same speed when Phil&#39;s tire came into contact with Rob&#39;s door, and that, had it been the initial impact, the damage to the door would have been much greater. My guess is that the tire marks are from a secondary impact after the cars came together and exited the track to driver&#39;s right. The left rear damage on the Mazda (both suspension and body), and the hood jammed up under the taillamp, indicate the initial impact. The tire marks likely occured during a subsequent impact after the Jag had slowed to match the speed of the Mazda. That tire mark on Rob&#39;s door could not have been made as it is if it happened under a large speed differential.



I find it very hard to believe you could not hear or see Phil coming at this point on the track.
[/b]

POINT 2 - As someone who raced with the &#39;big boys&#39; for 5 years, I can speak from first hand knowledge. Yes, a rotary is very loud in the car. Yes, a GT1 car is very loud outside the car. However, the sound of a GT1 car does not PRECEDE the car itself. A GT1 car is much louder once it has passed you than when it&#39;s approaching.

When I raced with the GT boys I was always checking my mirrors as the closing rates are phenomenal (AS car = heavy, DOT tires vs. GT car = lighter, faster, slicks). But if I missed seeing them in my mirror, it was too late; you don&#39;t hear the sound until they are too close for you to do anything about it. Luckily, in my 5 years my incidence level was zero.