944 weight reduction, any results

[Joe Harlan]

Again, I have no dog in this fight Joe but I do have first hand knowledge of this car, thats all! I know that building any street car into a IT car provides obstacles and the suspension for a 944 is a bit more obstacle than a fwd car that has struts all around.... It is a hell of alot easier to corner weigh and setup a car with four coilovers and I can have 6 eibach springs in 25lb increments for every custom grind T bar. That is why Porsche went to coilovers for their 944 based race cars.. Obstacle, not a issue!
[/b]

Not when the car starts at near perfect balance and the support is out there for TB rates out there the effort is not a whole lot more than any other car, Weltmeister and sway away make a large number of different rates and if I remember sway away offers hollow bars to reduce the weight of them.

[Knestis]

Seriously, guys - do you think that classification process should REALLY attempt to factor in TB vs. strut suspension?

It seems to me that if it gets to a point that THIS is the substance of disagreements, then we ain't gettin' no closer.

K

[Fastfred92]

Joe, How bout I give up! A quick internet search ( weltmeister, sway-a-way, paragon, elephant etc. ) found 7 or so different diameter bars both hollow and solid, that gives me about 7 different spring rates. A quick check of anybodys 2.5 spring chart finds maybe a hundred or more spring rates, slight difference...

This is all about the fact that a car will not make its process weight in ITS and is within performance parameters that with the correct process weight applied could slide down to ITA, thats all, regardless of its torsion bar size.

I have submitted a request as a SCCA member for such a change, lets see what happens.....

[Banzai240]

Seriously, guys - do you think that classification process should REALLY attempt to factor in TB vs. strut suspension?
[/b]

Kurt... just for reference... the process DOES consider strut vs. A-Arm vs. ??? for suspension... It comes into play when considering the "adders" to the base calculation...


And, for the record... 7hp in ITA is worth 101lbs... or so... In ITS it's worth about 90lbs... But, since ESTIMATING HP, even with some valid dyno numbers, can't possibly be expected to get the HP down to within 1-2hp of the "real" number... you can't argue these cases based JUST on HP numbers... Torque, suspension, brakes, transmission gear ratios, balance, aero... ALL come into consideration... The "Process" just gives a really good place to start... but even it's flawed, because it relies on numbers (HP) that, if off by even 4 or 5 hp, yield 50-60lbs off results to start with... The "Objective" analysis starts after that... so it's NEVER going to get it "right on", as seems to be trying to be done here...

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, How bout I give up! A quick internet search ( weltmeister, sway-a-way, paragon, elephant etc. ) found 7 or so different diameter bars both hollow and solid, that gives me about 7 different spring rates. A quick check of anybodys 2.5 spring chart finds maybe a hundred or more spring rates, slight difference...

This is all about the fact that a car will not make its process weight in ITS and is within performance parameters that with the correct process weight applied could slide down to ITA, thats all, regardless of its torsion bar size.

I have submitted a request as a SCCA member for such a change, lets see what happens.....
[/b]No problem Fred, I have summited data against and will continue to stay on top if this one. I am sorry but I look at the cup as being a lot fuller on that car and I could look a custmer in the eye if they wanted to spend the bucks to get one of front in ITS.


dia Solid Hollow
25.5 167.56 115.91
28.0 243.58 191.93
28.5 261.45 209.8
29.0 280.28 228.64
30.0 320.99 269.34
31.0 365.97 314.33
32.0 415.53 363.89
33.0 469.96 418.31
34.0 529.56 477.92[/b]

So based on what I know about the suspension this bar selection and rates should get anyone pretty dam close. Even I could find something here that would work.

And Kirk you are correct so unless new data is brought forwardI will save everything for the CRB.

[JeffYoung]

I think we say fark it, slap a JATO on that sucker, and put it in ITR.

[Knestis]

... just for reference... the process DOES consider strut vs. A-Arm vs. ??? for suspension... It comes into play when considering the "adders" to the base calculation...[/b]

My question was more subtle than "does it" - I asked "SHOULD it?"

If 7hp is about 100# in ITA, what does that mean if we try to make adders/subtractors like suspension design work at, say +/-50 pounds? That we think we have control of the entire system to down around the equivalent of 3.5hp??

I'm just sayin'...

K

[Bill Miller]

That's pretty obvious, isn't it, Fred? The answer is, of course, "what if they're wrong?" and it really does upset the apple cart? We all know that it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to un-do such mistakes, no less so than undoing any government social welfare program... [/b]

Greg,

Maybe I missed something, but how would this be any different than a newly-classed Wombat XTR? The way I understand the PCA process (and the way it's written in the ITCS), is that things get monitored for the first few years a car is classified, and adjustments can be made (up or down) in the process weight. The way I understand it, a car that gets moved to a different class, gets treated as a newly-classed car, for the purpose of the PCA process.

That being said, the answer to your question, is that they correct the mistake. If they can't correct the mistake, what's the point of having a PCA system at all?

As far as the 944 (or any car for that matter) being able to make its ITS weight, IIRC, one of the major arguments as to why the New Beetle was classed in ITC was that it was felt that it wouldn't be able to make its ITB process weight. If a car can't make weight, it should be moved down, period. Start w/ what the process says the weight should be for ITA, and go from there. If it's too light, use the PCA system to correct it.

Trust the process and use it objectively! A lot of people did a lot of heavy lifting to get a system in place to address this very issue, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of it? But, if what you're saying is that even w/ the PCA system in place, weights can't change (since the great adjustment of '06), then what you're saying is that what the ITAC worked for (vis-a-vis PCA's) was a waste of time.

Have a little faith.

[latebrake]

YOu know Jake you would be alot more convincing if you came across like you were listening instead of having to be right. I gave actual data from a qualified source. The transaxel in that thing is more likely to see 20% losses but since the transaxel is well placed providing with more than optimum weight balance it counters any looses it may provide by a long shot. The fact is at 189 HP with excellent brakes and handling this thing should add up to about 2600 lbs to start with. Wasn't the car an S car at 2700+ not to long ago?
You guys have at it. You have given me enough data to provide in my letters against this deal. Screwing the balance of the ITA cars would be just wrong. If guys are to lazy to get the cars under 2700 lbs then when you reclass to 2800lbs they are only getting 100lb weight gain not 325. 100 lbs will not slow them down at all once they have it moving.
[/b]

I fail to see where the transaxel in the 944 or any other car has anything to do with the class it runs in. is there some way to adjust in IT for this kind of thing??? :blink: are other cars being cut weight or add it for balance pro-con? Who is to say it better anyway?
I know !!! if i put all i know about cars in a tin cup i would still have lots of room for something else i know little about but i have written codes and law so it is a slippery slope to class cars on balance. Nothing personal Joe i just picked your post because it has the issue :D

Lawrence

[Joe Harlan]

I fail to see where the transaxel in the 944 or any other car has anything to do with the class it runs in. is there some way to adjust in IT for this kind of thing??? :blink: are other cars being cut weight or add it for balance pro-con? Who is to say it better anyway?
I know !!! if i put all i know about cars in a tin cup i would still have lots of room for something else i know little about but i have written codes and law so it is a slippery slope to class cars on balance. Nothing personal Joe i just picked your post because it has the issue :D

Lawrence
[/b]

Lawrence,

one word......"balance" From the factory this car has better balance than any other. And yes it should be considered just as FWD is considered.

Bill, It's the same deal here as in any other class, Make a big mistake and you kill particpation, once an adjustment is made it will take the process way to long to counter correct. The original deal was promised to be used with extreme caution in mind. This car was given a lighter weight less than a year ago and nobody has demonstrated that they have taken full advantage of the legal mods to even try to get there.


How bout this from 06 track records at firebird:
FIREBIRD RACEWAY - EAST COURSE Track Lap Records
AS
CF
CSR
DSR
EP 01:04.677 JOE SKORCH/ Chandler AZ AZ MAZDA RX7 04/30/06
F500
FA *** 00:55.858 GARY LAHAIE/ Scottsdale AZ AZ Swift 014a 04/30/06
FC 00:58.229 BARRY EBERT/ Cave Creek AZ AZ 04/29/06
FF
FM 00:55.873 KELLY GALLANT/ Scottsdale AZ AZ Star Mazda 04/29/06
FP
FV
GP
GT1
GT2
GT3
HP
ITA 01:11.136 RAYMOND BIRITZ/ San Diego CA SD/AZ MAZDA RX7 04/29/06
ITB 01:13.397 DAVIS KOFFRON/ Phoenix AZ AZ/CSCC VW GTI 04/29/06
ITC
ITE
ITS 01:07.960 JORGE DIAZ/ Tucson AZ SD/AZ Datsun 240Z 04/29/06PR07
RS 01:08.023 JOE STUBBLEFIELD/ Mesa AZ AZ PORSCHE 944 04/30/06
S2
S944 01:07.471 AZ PORSCHE 944 04/29/06SF
SM 01:08.068 JERRY NUNEZ/ Tempe AZ AZ 04/29/06
SP
SRF 01:05.288 GRANT LANGDON/ Phoenix AZ AZ SPEC RACER FORD 04/29/06
SRX7 01:09.788 AZ MAZDA RX7 04/29/06
SSB 01:10.250 PHILLIP ROYLE/ Valley Village CA CSCC Mazda MX5 04/30/06
SSC
T1
T2
T3
Chief of Timing & Scoring
Van Diemen
NORMAN HAMDEN/ Sedona AZ
Mazda Miata
DEVIN DAHN/ Litchfield Park AZ[/b]
These are the most recent records and from a region that has probably the highest spec 944 participation around.

Again not using on track data as a data point........ :snow_cool:

[924Guy]

What's the actual track record, not just in '06?

Asked a CENDIV (well, Great Lakes now) ITA racer I sit next to; his reaction - who cares? ITA lap records are still faster than ITS lap records at many CENDIV/Great Lakes tracks!

[Knestis]

ITS 01:07.960 JORGE DIAZ/ Tucson AZ SD/AZ Datsun 240Z 4/29/06
RS 01:08.023 JOE STUBBLEFIELD/ Mesa AZ AZ PORSCHE 944 04/30/06
S944 01:07.471 AZ PORSCHE 944 04/29/06SF
[/b]
Doesn't matter, doesn't matter, JUST DOESN'T MATTER.

Three different chassis, all built to the nth degree, developed completely and equally, torn down and proven legal by an independent party, driven by the same person, on the same tires, on the same day, fully data-logged to demonstrate that maximum g-loading was achieved througout each lap, with lap times repeatable to within a small enough fraction so as to be statistically identical?

Yeah.

Three random lap records for cars of unknown provenance, degree of development, and legality; driven by different shoes, with who-knows-what tires, in who knows what conditions, and who knows how well?

No.

More evidence that...

http://it2.evaluand.com/downloads/CA_endisnear.gif

(Thanks to Zsolt Ferenczy for the pic)

K

[Ron Earp]

I completely agree with Kirk with a number of levels/posts. If the car gets within 75lbs it is close enough I think for the type of classing we do. We're not out to balance things to a gnat's eyelash, at least I hope we're not.

R

[Joe Harlan]

Doesn't matter, doesn't matter, JUST DOESN'T MATTER.

Three different chassis, all built to the nth degree, developed completely and equally, torn down and proven legal by an independent party, driven by the same person, on the same tires, on the same day, fully data-logged to demonstrate that maximum g-loading was achieved througout each lap, with lap times repeatable to within a small enough fraction so as to be statistically identical?

Yeah.

Three random lap records for cars of unknown provenance, degree of development, and legality; driven by different shoes, with who-knows-what tires, in who knows what conditions, and who knows how well?

No.

More evidence that...

http://it2.evaluand.com/downloads/CA_endisnear.gif

(Thanks to Zsolt Ferenczy for the pic)

K
[/b]

Thank you Kirk exactly the response I was going for.......... :)

[Andy Bettencourt]

Of course we all know that the ITAC and CRB don't use on-track results. You make it seem like the PTB are heading that way.

[Knestis]

I've put it in print for all to see in the past but here it is again - I do NOT think that the current ITAC (or at least those who are willing to work with us in these public forums) are guilty of that. I have complete faith in Andy, Jake, et al.

My belief at this point however, is that since most current IT entrants don't have the faintest idea why it's a bad thing to use on-track performance to specify cars and since the IT logjam is busted, popular opinion and/or future ITAC membership have now enabled into taking us all right into competition adjustment land (bleah).

K

[Ron Earp]

I don't think we are headed to comp adjustment land. I don't think most of the IT club members think that way either, but there are certainly some who feel that way.

The vocal minority on this thread who think the ITAC is doing comp adjustments shouldn't be misinterpreted as the majority of the IT club members. The majority of the IT members, I submit, are not reading this thread and could care less about this long twisted argument.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ron,

But I DO care about those reading the thread because they have read the thought process of the ITAC. I can only see one or two people who think the consideration of a class change for a car that can't amke weight is in some how the end of IT.

[Joe Harlan]

I don't think we are headed to comp adjustment land. I don't think most of the IT club members think that way either, but there are certainly some who feel that way.

The vocal minority on this thread who think the ITAC is doing comp adjustments shouldn't be misinterpreted as the majority of the IT club members. The majority of the IT members, I submit, are not reading this thread and could care less about this long twisted argument.[/b]

Funny with 4200 views I would venture to say somebody is reading this thread and I have also seen some opinions change likely based on further information and thought. At first even I considered it harmless to move a car like this with lots of weight and a make a super pig out of it. PCA's were deeveloped to correct big glaring mistakes and to make it easier for future ITAC's to classify new cars. PCA's were sold to the CRB and the Membership as a tool that would be used with restaint.

[Fastfred92]

I completely agree with Kirk with a number of levels/posts. If the car gets within 75lbs it is close enough I think for the type of classing we do. We're not out to balance things to a gnat's eyelash, at least I hope we're not.

R
[/b]


I thought I was done but I must respectfully disagree here...... Most cars in ITS that I have worked with or had some close association with have been able to make minimum weight with the mythical 180 lb driver without resorting to extraordinary and or illegal steps, infact most could be prepped to well below allowing for ballast to help setup. ( I personally take up much too much of that ballast but ) The ITAC and board changed the weight in 06 from 2715 to 2575 after applying the process. Now you say that within 75lbs is close enough and I know many cars compete above their minimum but 75lbs as a tolerance is crazy.
If I roll across the scales at VIR this spring 75lbs light is that OK? If a car does not have a reasonable chance to make its weight then it should be looked at in the next class, simple enough. 75lbs is more than half the reduction the board gave this car, what would RX7 drivers say if we added 75lbs to their process weight because it is close enough? ( uproar ) If people are hellbent on keeping the 944 in S maybe we add 75 to all the others that make weight ( just as ridiculous as saying 75 is close enough )

[Ron Earp]

Sorry, I'm not being exact.

What I was trying to say is that I don't think the process can spec a car down to 50-75lbs In fact, use 50lbs because you are right, 75lbs is too large a difference. The process is probably good to a 50lb resolution I think and what I was trying to say is that if we're within 50lbs of the spec weight for the cars racing, then that is probably about as close as the process can bring us.

Do you think the process has a resolution that is smaller than 50lbs? Sorry, don't need to take this off track. Continue on with ITA 944 debate.

R

[lateapex911]

. PCA's were sold to the CRB and the Membership as a tool that would be used with restaint. [/b]

Well, I just reread the edict in the GCR, and there is considerable latitude for changes of exactly this nature. Now, it does have a clause that (for vehicles clasified for more than 4 years) that, "On rare occasions.." additional changes can be made.

So, thats the qualifier..."On rare occasions"

Also, remember that if the ITAC were to go nuts and decide to move the car to A, at say 2630 (which would match the Nissans WHP figure, as they are both the same), the CRB still needs to approve of the change. As the process is known internally, and since they are on the con calls, its not likely that such a move will be approved.

In other words, there are checks and balances in the system.

Now, if you feel that the wording is incorrrect, or that there aren't enough restrictions on the ITAC, that we could be acting without, as yo say, "restraint", or that the policy isn't clear enough and could morph into something else down the road, feel free to write in and make a request to change the wording.

[944-spec#94]

ITS 01:07.960 JORGE DIAZ/ Tucson AZ SD/AZ Datsun 240Z 4/29/06
RS 01:08.023 JOE STUBBLEFIELD/ Mesa AZ AZ PORSCHE 944 04/30/06
S944 01:07.471 AZ PORSCHE 944 04/29/06SF




Three random lap records for cars of unknown provenance, degree of development, and legality; driven by different shoes, with who-knows-what tires, in who knows what conditions, and who knows how well?

[/b]

Well
I can tell you about 2 of those cars in the 3 track records listed above

The RS & S944 records are done by similar cars. The RS 944 is a S944 that I believe ran on test tires. S944 can run on any tire, but limited in size. They are good solid records from good drivers in top cars (for the S944 class). However S944 cars are 2625lbs with sub 140 rwhp. There is lots of competition which breeds great driving.

As for the ITS record.... The ITS field in Az consists of 2-3 cars per weekend. So you can't say that car is a a 100% car. Could be, but probably not. ITA is also not well supported in Az so that is tough to trust.

Really and IT track record in Az needs tobe taking with grain of salt since IT fields are really small.

So these rules do not support a change nor do they show evidence about NOT making a change. They are infact irrelevant.

[Andy Bettencourt]

To follow up on my previous post:

The people on here are the most informed about IT in the country. They are informed about many issues, good and bad. Peoples outlook on rules, cars and interpretations.

If you could see some of the hate mail we received from some members after the Feb 'correction' when all cars went through the process, you would see that they all came from people who do not come here and see how things work.

This site is incredably valuable to all of us and whether we agree or not, to be informed is power. This may e the vast minority of IT racers, but we are by far the group with the most information from which to form our opinions. And those opinions I value highly.

[JeffYoung]

In Stockholm with several beers in me, so a bit off topic, but I want to echo and support Andy's post.

This is THE best place to discuss IT issues. Way better than the paddock. Sometimes I laugh at the effort expended here on policy issues related to our "grand hobby" but honestly, it is just a reflection of the passion we all have. I told Joe one time he was a pompous ass for the way he expressed his opinions here -- and I am proud to say it has become his new signature line -- but the fact is the passion we all have for this silly stupid time consuming relationship wrecking expensive "hobby" is what drives the heated, but for the most part informed and quite "smart" discussions on this board.

No, I don't think the 944 should go to ITA. I think if someone can get the car close to its process weight. But you know what? If it does go, I know it will have gone after a HEALTHY and LENGTHY debate of almost all pros and cons of the move.

As I swig the last of my "Spendrups" lager, which is awful by the way, I adopt the Bud Light cliche and say, "I love you man" meaning this website serves an extremely useful and necessary purpose for IT racing by bringing us together. Without it, I doubt the important and necessary changes we have seen over the last 2-3 years would have happened.

Back to find Alexandra at the Viking Sky Bar...........

[Fastfred92]

In Stockholm with several beers in me

Back to find Alexandra at the Viking Sky Bar...........
[/b]

Rough life man

[Knestis]

Well, JEFF isn't going to be of any further use here for a while... :)

Give Alexandra my best, Jeff...

K

[Fastfred92]

Jet set people like Jeff belong in production, not IT :birra:

[lateapex911]

I LOVE it! Jeff, this thread is NOTHING without pictures!!! Post some pics of you and whoever, LOL.

I echo the comments about the site. I KNOW that without this site, the IT world would NOT be the same as it is, and I think that IT is in a much better place now than it was 3 years ago. So HUGE and hearty props to our webmaster, who is semi secretive about his ID, so I won't name him. But he is a GREAT guy, and you should support him when he asks, in whatever way you can.

I did notice, the line in Joes sig, and chuckled when I saw it, because I knew it was in response to Jeffs comment. Also, I remember when Bill Miller came around and actually said positive things about the ITAC at one point after the "Miller Ice Age of ITAC Discontent" ebbed a bit, and I said something to the effect of "Would you look at that...Miller has some praise for us! Wow...pigs must be flying over New Jersey!" And lo and behold, Millers new avatar is....yup, a flying pig. Nicely done, BTW, Bill.

All in all, even when we discuss issues we, for the most part, do it with respect and civility, with the exception of the trolls like harry ballsack, who eventually go away, bored that we continue to debate, rather than just fall into an all out name besmerching contest.

As a guy on the ITAC, I really enjoy reading what is written here, as there are some very sharp minds who post here. It is also surprising to read some of the letters sent to us, that mention IT.com, but from people who never post. The eyes are watching. And as Andy points out, it also amazes me when we get letters like we did after the Feb adendum was released, by big time frontrunners who have posted here, but paid so little attention (and didn't read fastrak either) that they were completely surprised by the entire PCA thing. Wow...thats some kind of out of touch, LOL.

[Ron Earp]

As a guy on the ITAC, I really enjoy reading what is written here, as there are some very sharp minds who post here. It is also surprising to read some of the letters sent to us, that mention IT.com, but from people who never post. The eyes are watching. And as Andy points out, it also amazes me when we get letters like we did after the Feb adendum was released, by big time frontrunners who have posted here, but paid so little attention (and didn't read fastrak either) that they were completely surprised by the entire PCA thing. Wow...thats some kind of out of touch, LOL.
[/b]

As a regular guy who just enjoys to read and trying to "get his race on", I appreciate the ITAC participating in the forum. It is a great place (read IT.com? donate lately?) and a fantastic resource. I don't know how many racing organizations/classes have this sort of ability to interact with the folks making the decisions for the class as a whole. Good stuff.

BTW - as I write this I'm in Hawaii, trying to find out what hammock I'll spend my day in, and what drink I might have whilst enjoying my book!

R

[Fastfred92]

Jeezz,,,,,, What am i doing wrong here???? The 3 people from Raleigh who post on IT.com a fair bit are Ron, Jeff and me

Ron is in Hawaii, Jeff is in Stockholm and i am in Raleigh ( well actually Cary )....... did I miss a meeting or something?


I got to find a new career path

[JeffYoung]

Stockholm was cool, although worked the whole time. 9 million Swedes, 4.5 million Swedish women, 1/2 of them supermodels. Amazing.

Back to the 9-Foh-Foh. So is the request to move it in, and then Joe has opposed it?

I got no dog in the fight, but interested in how it turns out. ITAC recommendation on this is?

[lateapex911]

work work work...Mike Rowe from "Dirty Jobs" probably has no sympathy for ye who mingle with the supermodels...

Anyway, the ITAC got a request to move to A due to inabilty to make anything close to weight...

!5 pages of discussion here....

Some opposition from one or two...

Some ITAC research...

and we'll discuss it on our next con call.

Holidays preempted our last call, sorry. Stay tuned.

[Banzai240]

Anyway, the ITAC got a request to move to A due to inabilty to make anything close to weight...[/b]

A PERCEIVED "inability to make anything close to weight"... There are those HERE who have said they can... AND who actually race the things...

[Greg Amy]

A PERCEIVED "inability to make anything close to weight"...[/b]

Ditto. Until I see a half-dozen serious attempts at making these cars light, I'll consider those claims to be self- perpetuating.

In my opinion, the Porsche 944 does not belong in ITA.

[lateapex911]

A PERCEIVED "inability to make anything close to weight"... There are those HERE who have said they can... AND who actually race the things...
[/b]

No, the ITAC got a request that it be moved due to a CLAIMED inability to make weight...

(THe letter writer being the one making the claim.....)

It's the ITACs job to research and verify the claim, and THEN to decide where to go with it. ;)

[Greg Amy]

It's the ITACs job to research and verify the claim...[/b]

Right. And how can you possibly do that with any reasonableness of certainty? Is the ITAC meeting at George Roffe's house having a "let's lighten up the 944" party...? Or are you simply calling around to 944 builders (who have a built-in conflict of interest) asking them "can you do this otherwise we'll consider moving you to ITA"...?

As a result, you're about to get a rash of letters from competitors claiming that their cars cannot get down to their minimum weight; are you prepared to address each of those claims thoroughly and fairly as well? If not, why not? If so, how?

Oh Jake, Pandora's on the phone for you...

[lateapex911]

And her hair is full of snakes...;)

It's ok, I like snakes.....

Each of your examples has exceptions...the truth will out.

(upon rereading my quote Greg, i hope you weren't reading it as pre disposed to verify -only-.......perhaps I should have been more obvious...and added a "or deny"....)

[erlrich]

Interesting, I just went back an read the first few pages of this thread (sorry I came in late), and noticed these comments:


We race a 944 which does make weight.[/b]


I DO think that the earlier (pre-85.5) 944 chassis are lighter - you may even be able to make the ITS weight with one of those chassis, particularly with a light cage.[/b]And yes I understand the part about the earlier cars being lighter; so does that mean we're going to split the '85.5 and later versions when we move the car to A, and leave the earlier cars in S?

[Fastfred92]

As a result, you're about to get a rash of letters from competitors claiming that their cars cannot get down to their minimum weight; are you prepared to address each of those claims thoroughly and fairly as well? If not, why not? If so, how?
[/b]

Well Greg, the big weight off of 06 happend early 06 and I am on record as early as 2/14/06 ( in IT.com post ) saying that 944 will not make weight. Where are all the others?

[Joe Harlan]

Well Greg, the big weight off of 06 happend early 06 and I am on record as early as 2/14/06 ( in IT.com post ) saying that 944 will not make weight. Where are all the others?
[/b]


There you go, The adjustment wasn't even dry before we are trying to readjust. That is not rarely or being conservative with adjustments. I have it from a top level Porcshe builder that the early cars can make it.

And the thought that I am the onloy one that is opposed is BS. I am vocal enough to point out that it would be a mistake to move a car in this short a period of time without seeing a full build effort of some sorts happen.

[Bill Miller]

I submit that the ITAC should use the same guideline that they did when they classified the New Beetle in ITC. What was the difference in the curb weight vs. the process weight for ITB?

[Fastfred92]

There you go, The adjustment wasn't even dry before we are trying to readjust. That is not rarely or being conservative with adjustments. I have it from a top level Porcshe builder that the early cars can make it.

[/b]

Well Joe, for you, one more time. I built one of these several years back when the old weight was 2715 and the car was prepped ( weightwise ) damn near 100% and I was EXACTLY 2834 last time I went over the scales before selling the car. That was with appx. 4 gal of gas and me at 250...... If my math is correct that is 2736 with no gas and the magical 180 lb driver. I ran cookie cutters at about 14lbs each ( 15") and I am sure for $$$ you could find me some 8 lb wheels. Now we are at 2712 let figure another 10lbs worth of guages 2702, I will say there may have been 5 lbs of undercoating I did not scrape off somewhere 2697. Radiator is already aluminum but maybe another 3 for custom unit, another 8 for aluminum body shocks and 10 for your spoiler delete ( illegal?) 2676... still 100 lbs so lets see: titanium exhaust 10, carbon wheels 8, hand held fire bottle 2, carbon seat 4, titanium fasteners 5, cheap brand windshield 2 = 2645 What have I missed Joe? Wait that is only 70lbs, clearly within the close enough rule!

[Joe Harlan]

Well Joe, for you, one more time. I built one of these several years back when the old weight was 2715 and the car was prepped ( weightwise ) damn near 100% and I was EXACTLY 2834 last time I went over the scales before selling the car. That was with appx. 4 gal of gas and me at 250...... If my math is correct that is 2736 with no gas and the magical 180 lb driver. I ran cookie cutters at about 14lbs each ( 15") and I am sure for $$$ you could find me some 8 lb wheels. Now we are at 2712 let figure another 10lbs worth of guages 2702, I will say there may have been 5 lbs of undercoating I did not scrape off somewhere 2697. Radiator is already aluminum but maybe another 3 for custom unit, another 8 for aluminum body shocks and 10 for your spoiler delete ( illegal?) 2676... still 100 lbs so lets see: titanium exhaust 10, carbon wheels 8, hand held fire bottle 2, carbon seat 4, titanium fasteners 5, cheap brand windshield 2 = 2645 What have I missed Joe? Wait that is only 70lbs, clearly within the close enough rule!
[/b]

Fred, provide photos of the build and maybe I can give you some guidance on where to find that extra weight. I don’t see any mention of fuel cell in your list. Again not trying to be a jerk it is that I do this for a living every day in my shop. I know there is not 100 magic pounds that will come off in a clump I bet there’s a 100 lbs that will come off. -14 lbs with 2 gals less fuel....

[Fastfred92]

I don’t see any mention of fuel cell in your list.

-14 lbs with 2 gals less fuel....
[/b]

Joe, I have been racing since I was 18 years old ( now 42 ) so I think I know a little bit about prep. I also operate my own body shop and have handled most of my own fabrication over the years. I can tell you with certainty that a fuel cell and all its associated can, framework etc will not produce any savings. The oem tank on 944's is very light and compact and due to the nature of their layout it is a difficult car to install a cell in any way. There is a heavy metal shield under the tank which I removed anyway. As you mentioned in a earlier post the door glass and regulators are near 15lbs each side but as I have said the weight of adding the needed door bars to be able to ditch the glass is pretty much a wash. My old car had x bars.

The above post was with ZERO fuel so no 14 lbs there..

[lateapex911]

Fred what year was that chassis?

[Banzai240]

All very interesting...

When I spent an hour on the phone with Greg Fordahl a year or so ago about this topic as ITAC chair the last time the ITAC reviewed this issue, he told me he hadn't even bothered to remove the electric windows or any of several other IT legal removal items because he needed the extra weight to make 2715...

Odd... don't you think... :rolleyes:

Oh... and he is always only a tad off a good 240Z pace at most tracks... (yes... even WAY out here in the NW, we have GOOD 240Zs with GOOD drivers...) and WAY faster than any ITA car...

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, I have been racing since I was 18 years old ( now 42 ) so I think I know a little bit about prep. I also operate my own body shop and have handled most of my own fabrication over the years. I can tell you with certainty that a fuel cell and all its associated can, framework etc will not produce any savings. The oem tank on 944's is very light and compact and due to the nature of their layout it is a difficult car to install a cell in any way. There is a heavy metal shield under the tank which I removed anyway. As you mentioned in a earlier post the door glass and regulators are near 15lbs each side but as I have said the weight of adding the needed door bars to be able to ditch the glass is pretty much a wash. My old car had x bars.

The above post was with ZERO fuel so no 14 lbs there..
[/b]

Fred, your attitude is showing. I was offering help. I have installed a lot of fuel cells and there is a weight savings every time I have done it. The 14 lbs was the fact that you had 4 gals left in the stock tank which likely you needed to finish (pickup) so if you could finish with 2 gals less (cell picks up better) you save roughly 14 lbs.
I would still love to see photos of the car you built and Jake asks a good question what year was the tub?

[Fastfred92]

Fred what year was that chassis?
[/b]


1986

And I owned that car before I owned a digital camera, I have on track pics (prints) but nothing else..

[Banzai240]

1986

[/b]

IIRC... the 1983-1985.5 model years are 100lbs lighter due to a lighter chasses/body structure... In 86 and up they were heavier, according to several 944 sources...

So, these suffer from the same issue as any number of other cars...

You might claim that this puts an unfair premium on the earlier cars, and a move to ITA would make ALL 944s able to make weight, but this premium would be pronounced in ITA as well, because the lighter/earlier cars would have the advantage of being able to add weight back more strategically in the allowed ballast area and get even better balance than these alread have...

[Fastfred92]

Darin, Joe, Greg and the Nissan racer family as a whole oppose the move of the 944 to ITA....... I get that.

Same whp as the ITA Nissan? Same areo maybe? 200 plus lbs more than ITA 240SX? I get it..

All the 944 people on here seem to agree it will not make weight but the Nissan crowd says it can, where are the Hondacura guys?

A couple of Mazda ITA guys tone seems to indicate they agree with the 944 guys but because they are iTA they should fight this tooth and nail ( and they could b/c they have a seat on the ITAC )

ITAC and board................... do your thing and let the chips fall where they may... This debate has ended its useful shelf life

[Joe Harlan]

Darin, Joe, Greg and the Nissan racer family as a whole oppose the move of the 944 to ITA....... I get that.

Same whp as the ITA Nissan? Same areo maybe? 200 plus lbs more than ITA 240SX? I get it..

All the 944 people on here seem to agree it will not make weight but the Nissan crowd says it can, where are the Hondacura guys?

A couple of Mazda ITA guys tone seems to indicate they agree with the 944 guys but because they are iTA they should fight this tooth and nail ( and they could b/c they have a seat on the ITAC )

ITAC and board................... do your thing and let the chips fall where they may... This debate has ended its useful shelf life
[/b]


Pretty Chicken S**T Fred, It has nothing to do with brand and as I stated several pages ago I would be opposed to the ITS 240sx (which suffers the same issue early V Late) being moving to ITA. This not a brand issue it is that there seams to be a push by some folks to crown the 944 as the net ITA championship car. The ITA 240sx once again starts out at 140 HP and 152 ftlbs torque stock. 18 HP less than the 944. As has also been stated that were it not for the MAF the stock HP numbers would have put this car into ITS. One thing you can not say Fred is that the Nissan drivers here have not offered accurate information on both sides of the issue. I think it would be nice if you did the same. Don't try to change the debate with false arguments of brand loyalty.

[Greg Amy]

Darin, Joe, Greg and the Nissan racer family...[/b]

Completely coincidental. If I were driving an Integra, CRX, Saturn, Rabbit, Volvo, BMW, MR2, or whatever I'd have the same position: the Porsche 944, a rear-wheel-drive 2.5-liter, well-balanced world-class Grand Touring coupe is, philosophically and technically, not a good fit into ITA.

But I can fully understand how the Porsche drivers want it in there; if I were a Porsche driver, I would too. - GA

[lateapex911]

...This not a brand issue it is that there seams to be a push by some folks to crown the 944 as the net ITA championship car.

[/b]
come on Joe, lets not get all dumb about this.....nobody is looking to do that, so don't go there.



The ITA 240sx once again starts out at 140 HP and 152 ftlbs torque stock. 18 HP less than the 944. As has also been stated that were it not for the MAF the stock HP numbers would have put this car into ITS.
[/b]

But what matters is what they make, right? The process starts with stock numbers, but where we have better info, that is considered. In this case, it happens that even with the MAF issue, the Nissan and the Porsche make, within a hp or two, the same power.....

So, lets not smoke and mirrors it by pointing to disparities in stock numbers.

[Joe Harlan]

come on Joe, lets not get all dumb about this.....nobody is looking to do that, so don't go there.
But what matters is what they make, right? The process starts with stock numbers, but where we have better info, that is considered. In this case, it happens that even with the MAF issue, the Nissan and the Porsche make, within a hp or two, the same power.....

So, lets not smoke and mirrors it by pointing to disparities in stock numbers.
[/b]
There is no smoke and mirrors being used, That is what the process was based on good or bad it has gotten cars closer than they have ever been in the past. Again you are proving the process is not being applied the same or all cars. and comp adjustments are on the way.

Jake LAST TIME I SAY THIS. You have numbers from one builder! You have no idea what exhaust work or other developemnt has not been done. I have been doing 240z engines for 15 years and we are still building exhaust systems and finding more. Stick to something you can work with. The process was never meant to shoehorn a car into a class just to make it a front runner and that's what you are trying to do. The 240sx at stock numbers fits the process properly from the place we started. If we were trying to go back 10 years and use the MR2 and the RX7 as the baseline then the 240 would be to fast for the class. But we can't fix all the previous F'up's of the past so there will have to be some shuffling. Moving the 944 will reshuffle the whole deck and you will be in the same place as we were not 5 years ago. I am done in this thread and I will make a counter case to the CRB and the BOD if need be.

[Andy Bettencourt]

:dead_horse:

[lateapex911]

Jake LAST TIME I SAY THIS. You have numbers from one builder! [/b]

Stop screaming, LOL...actually, the numbers are from multiple builders.


. The process was never meant to shoehorn a car into a class just to make it a front runner and that's what you are trying to do. [/b]

Stop. First, you have no idea what i am or am not "trying to do". Second, puleeeze..why WOULD I try to shove an overdog, as you say it will be, into my OWN class!?!?! Because I like getting my ass whipped?


Moving the 944 will reshuffle the whole deck and you will be in the same place as we were not 5 years ago. I am done in this thread and I will make a counter case to the CRB and the BOD if need be. [/b]

I have better institutional memory than you think. I remember where I was further ago than 5 years ago, and the lopsidedness of ITA was caused not by the cars in the class, but by the improper weight setting. IF any of those cars had been placed in the class at proper weights, things would be much different. It's not just about the car.....

Please, as always, the ITAC loves input. Send in the numbers, the more the merrier.

[JeffYoung]

Joe, I agree with you on the merits but again, you are losing this one primarily because of the way you are presenting it. Andy and Jake aren't biased -- they are just looking for ways to improve IT.

Here's why moving the 944 now would not improve IT in my view, and this is not any original thinking -- it is just a synthesis of the above without the yelling:

1. No one has conclusively established that a 100% 944 can't get to ITS process weight, much less within 50 or 75 lbs of it, and there is quite a bit of evidence that it can.

2. It has probably been a long time, if ever, that anyone has done a 100% build on a 944.

3. There is a significant risk that the car could be an overdog in ITA even at its process weight due to intangibles not really accounted for in the process.

4. Moving the car now, this soon after the reduction in weight, makes little sense because we haven't see if the top builders can get the car to ITS process weight. Given the downside, at a minimum waiting a few years seems prudent.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, I agree with you on the merits but again, you are losing this one primarily because of the way you are presenting it. Andy and Jake aren't biased -- they are just looking for ways to improve IT.

Here's why moving the 944 now would not improve IT in my view, and this is not any original thinking -- it is just a synthesis of the above without the yelling:

1. No one has conclusively established that a 100% 944 can't get to ITS process weight, much less within 50 or 75 lbs of it, and there is quite a bit of evidence that it can.

2. It has probably been a long time, if ever, that anyone has done a 100% build on a 944.

3. There is a significant risk that the car could be an overdog in ITA even at its process weight due to intangibles not really accounted for in the process.

4. Moving the car now, this soon after the reduction in weight, makes little sense because we haven't see if the top builders can get the car to ITS process weight. Given the downside, at a minimum waiting a few years seems prudent.
[/b]

Jeff, I don't feel Andy or Jake are biased in anyway as has been stated. Now you need to understand that sometimes trying to do what you feel is a good thing could in the long run be an unintended screw up with little chance of being corrected. I think all of the folks saying not to do this have all suggested a wait and see position on this deal since the car was just adjusted.

Lastly Jeff, Please do not forget my tag line.....

[JeffYoung]

Trust me, I NEVER forget your tag line. I created it. I am the maker and the giver, the true path and the way.

[erlrich]

.... I am the maker and the giver, the true path and the way. [/b] So Jeff, how did you get all that Swedish ale back through customs?

[Fastfred92]

Joe, I agree with you on the merits but again, you are losing this one primarily because of the way you are presenting it. Andy and Jake aren't biased -- they are just looking for ways to improve IT.

Here's why moving the 944 now would not improve IT in my view, and this is not any original thinking -- it is just a synthesis of the above without the yelling:

1. No one has conclusively established that a 100% 944 can't get to ITS process weight, much less within 50 or 75 lbs of it, and there is quite a bit of evidence that it can.

2. It has probably been a long time, if ever, that anyone has done a 100% build on a 944.

3. There is a significant risk that the car could be an overdog in ITA even at its process weight due to intangibles not really accounted for in the process.

4. Moving the car now, this soon after the reduction in weight, makes little sense because we haven't see if the top builders can get the car to ITS process weight. Given the downside, at a minimum waiting a few years seems prudent.
[/b]

OK so I am a sucker, I thought I was done again....
Jeff I would respond to your concerns as follows:

1. There is no evidence other than the Nissan camp that the cars can make weight and 50 or 75 lbs is not close enough..
2. Very good 944's have been built in the past, many in fact as Chris C. has said himself. Most of which did not make weight at 2715. I know. Now this crap about 100% needs to end because is any car really 100%? I think you could take Huffmaster's Mazda or Chet's e36 and drop say a 100 grand on it and make it better, lighter and faster all while being within the rules. What happens at 150 grand and so on. My car was nowhere near 100% in the engine but prep wise was very close as I have pointed out in prior post and weight is what we are talking here. People who are smart and competitive about their choice of race cars do research, nobody that wants to be competitive in ITS is going to build a 944, its a catch 22. My guess is you can wait a year or five, you will never see a "100" build 944 in iTS.........
3. How in the world do you think a 944 at say 2850 is going to be faster than one at 2715 or less is now??? The 944 does not have enough hp to go along with its "world class" chassis to be a overdog at that weight or any obtainable weight for that matter....
4. Again wait all you want, nothing is going to change. The only mistake the ITAC and board made in 06 was not moving this car then....

And note to Joe ( I like you because I think you are a rebel like me ) you provided Fordal's hp #'s and they matched or were very close to Milledge so at the very least the ITAC has 2 numbers! :D

[924Guy]

I can't argue against waiting another year; little is lost by waiting, but if we rush this, there is the possibility, even if small (IMO), of upsetting a class which I thought was just made interesting again (after redressing the CRX weight imbalance previously mentioned). That WOULD be a big loss in my opinion.

What is lost by waiting another year? I would submit to you all that those who are unsatisfied with the competitiveness of the 944 in ITS have already either moved to a 944S, or to NASA - 944Cup, Spec944, or GTS Challenge.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jeff, I don't feel Andy or Jake are biased in anyway as has been stated. Now you need to understand that sometimes trying to do what you feel is a good thing could in the long run be an unintended screw up with little chance of being corrected. I think all of the folks saying not to do this have all suggested a wait and see position on this deal since the car was just adjusted.

Lastly Jeff, Please do not forget my tag line..... [/b]

Again, I have no idea why the word bias would even get typed. Jake and I are both in full support of teh process. If a car can't make its weight, it should be moved down at a new process weight. In this case, what some perceive as a overdog would be moving into our class. It's 180 degress of bias. Maybe stupidity!

Is there possibility it would be a mistake? Sure. The only beef I have with your post Joe is that it can get corrected - and WILL get corrected if it is proven to eradicate ITA.

I am really done with this. I do not think a 2850-2900lb 944 will ruin ITA and maybe it is because I am blinded by my faith in the process. But without micro-managing the classes ala Prod, it is the cornerstone of our newfound success.

The questions in front of the ITAC will be 'how close is close enough' on the min weight and 'if a certain year range on the spec line can make weight but another year range can't, how do you class the whole?'

[JeffYoung]

Understood on all that.

I guess the bottom line for me is that if the car comes in close to min weight in ITS, then a change to ITA would essentially be a competition adjustment and one of those moves that should be reserved for "rare" oversights/errors in classification.

Beleive me, I want more 944 race cars in SCCA. But I don't think making an out of the ordinary change to try and do that makes sense.

Nor do I honestly believe that many guys will abandon 944 Cup et al to run a 2850 944 in ITA. But, I agree that there may be "new builds" at that weight.

Fred, just for kicks, run my car through the process and see where it ends up. 135 stock hp, 2560 weight. Live rear axle, drum brakes in the rear.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Fred, just for kicks, run my car through the process and see where it ends up. 135 stock hp, 2560 weight. Live rear axle, drum brakes in the rear.

[/b]

What's cool is that when you run the numbers (I'll let Fred show his math I guess) on this car - and you use the power outputs that we know it can make - supported by Jeff's dyno data - it is SPOT ON. Using a straight 'formula', it's an ITA overdog - in a Big WAY.

[JeffYoung]

Bingo! My car BELONGS in ITS, because of two "subjective" factors: way big torque and the fact that the motor makes about 40% more power in IT build than stock.

It is those same subjective, but harder to quantify numbers, that scare me a bit bout the 944. Balance. Brakes. Even decent torque. Aero.

Plus, I'm biased. I like racing against them in S.

[lateapex911]

Bingo! My car BELONGS in ITS, because of two "subjective" factors: way big torque and the fact that the motor makes about 40% more power in IT build than stock.

It is those same subjective, but harder to quantify numbers, that scare me a bit bout the 944. Balance. Brakes. Even decent torque. Aero.

Plus, I'm biased. I like racing against them in S. [/b]


Ahh, yes Jeff, but keep in mind that you got zero adders or subtracters for your drum brakes (they are WAY oversized compared to other ITS drum setups), and the live axle thing gets you nothing as well, now that the traction bar stuff is out of the bag. But you did get nicked for the V8 torque, and the incredible HP gains....And while Ron got a break for British unreliability on his, yours started life as an American, so nothing there. ;)

But, seriously, keep in mind that the actual process weight before adders and such on the 944 in ITA is significanlty lower than the numbers being talked about here.

Also, keep in mind that top shops areound the country put the actual HP for the ITA 240SX and the 944 within less than 1% of each other. So if you compare ITA weights, you'll see the 944 has some catching up to do, vis a vis the 240SX. (2630, vs 2850)

Andy's got it boiled down though:

What are the real weights that are acheivable?
How close is close enough?
And, if it's different for different years, how to proceed then?

[Joe Harlan]

Deleted...wasted enough time on this.

[JeffYoung]

Ok, let's go with those then:

What are the real weights that are acheivable? Petty good evidence from above that the early chassis can come within 50-75 lbs of process weight AT LEAST.

How close is close enough? If we are moving cars from class to class over a 50-75 lb difference, we are making a mistake.

And, if it's different for different years, how to proceed then? Leave it as is. Just like a number of other models, 944 drivers will have to seek out the early chassis if they want to get to the lowest weight. This is no different than most cars. There are 200 TR8 coupes in the US (or were). They have far better aero than my car. I'd rather build one of those, but they are hard to find. That's part of IT life.

[lateapex911]

Deleted...wasted enough time on this. [/b]

from the previous post, now deleted...



AT 2900 lbs you could add a rollbar to a 160k street car ans be an instant front runner at most tracks....[/b]

Huh? I guess "most tracks" aren't where I live. I can't find a track in a 12 hour tow where thats would be true.

Nearly any 944 would get their ass handed to them by the top guys who run ITA in a 12 hour radius from here, and the thought of a street car winning is beyond funny.

[Joe Harlan]

from the previous post, now deleted...
Huh? I guess "most tracks" aren't where I live. I can't find a track in a 12 hour tow where thats would be true.

Nearly any 944 would get their ass handed to them by the top guys who run ITA in a 12 hour radius from here, and the thought of a street car winning is beyond funny.
[/b]
Yeah it would be funny but it would be possible...Clearly Jake the argument is more important to you than doing the right thing (as proven by this post) You all have fun with this cause the case is being made that this move is wrong.

[Fastfred92]

Fred, just for kicks, run my car through the process and see where it ends up. 135 stock hp, 2560 weight. Live rear axle, drum brakes in the rear.
[/b]

Jeff I got you pegged at 2250 in ITR............... Don't worry if you can't get to 2275, anything will be close enough :P

[JeffYoung]

Actually, I could get close.....scary. Run 75 lbs ballast as is, big cage, lots of places to lose weight,including my belly.

ITR TR8 it is!

[Fastfred92]

and the thought of a street car winning is beyond funny.
[/b]

Kinda reminds me of those e36 325 street cars with " junkyard " motors dominating ITS a few back

Street car has a different meaning out in the great PNW

[Joe Harlan]

Kinda reminds me of those e36 325 street cars with " junkyard " motors dominating ITS a few back

Street car has a different meaning out in the great PNW
[/b]

That's currect, We drive some pretty nice stuff out here.I alway forget on the east coast you guys replace your shoe leather instead of your brake pads...........: :D


It is interesting that we can get enough weight out of our cars and you can't since most of that east coast stuff is lighter just from rot.

[Fastfred92]

Touche' Joe and company......... Looks like the 944 was effectivly killed off per the march fastrack

[Joe Harlan]

Touche' Joe and company......... Looks like the 944 was effectivly killed off per the march fastrack
[/b]
kinda sour grapes there Fred, I was not going to respond at all but the more I thought about it pissed me off that you act like I did something to wrong the 944....Cars will be built and driven and run at the pointy end of the field by people that want to run them there. Unlike you there are people that can see the forest through the trees and have a reasonable expection that they personally need to be as competitive as the car they choose to drive.

Have a nice day... B)

[lateapex911]

:rolleyes:
:dead_horse:

sigh....

(This IS a debateable issue, and there ARE those with real expertise that think the ITAC had a tough call, and can see both sides....)

[Joe Harlan]

:rolleyes:
:dead_horse:

sigh....

(This IS a debateable issue, and there ARE those with real expertise that think the ITAC had a tough call, and can see both sides....)
[/b]

You miss the point, Jake. It's always going to be a tough call but I had nothing to doing with killing the participation of this car. Cars will be built and driven at the pointy end of the grid. After seeing a fully uncorked ITR e36 run this weekend I will bet my last dollar that the other marques will be back to ITS once that overdog moves fulltime to ITR... The 944 will be back to being competitive in ITS once that happens

[lateapex911]

.. The 944 will be back to being competitive in ITS once that happens
[/b]

So you;re saying the 944 can be competitve if nobody shows up?

And i still beg to differ. Huffmasters RX-7, Dan Jones' BMW if he hangs in S, some Z cars are all putting the 944 in the mirrors. and as it stands, the BMW appears to be anything BUT an overdog, both on paper and on the track. At some point, physics matter. I hope I'm wrong and next year sees a 944 passing Huffmaster in his RX-7 for the win at the ARRCs with a Corrado right behind, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm not debating that in certain races, a 944 can win. Heck, I've beaten ITS cars in my car, but I've never beaten a "Good" ITS car.

[Joe Harlan]

So you;re saying the 944 can be competitve if nobody shows up?

And i still beg to differ. Huffmasters RX-7, Dan Jones' BMW if he hangs in S, some Z cars are all putting the 944 in the mirrors. and as it stands, the BMW appears to be anything BUT an overdog, both on paper and on the track. At some point, physics matter. I hope I'm wrong and next year sees a 944 passing Huffmaster in his RX-7 for the win at the ARRCs with a Corrado right behind, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm not debating that in certain races, a 944 can win. Heck, I've beaten ITS cars in my car, but I've never beaten a "Good" ITS car.
[/b]


Jake, please I know you get your kicks trying to twist my words but stop or resign please. I tire of have you try to justify a poor position by twisting peoples words, you are clearly not objective enough to serve on this committee and you should just quit. you can beg to differ all day long but beg to differ with someone else. This thread required no further input from you as an ITAC memeber. MY Alphin made a direct statement at me and I even tried hard to avoid responding to it. The only reason you responded was to have a go at me and I am tired of it. Again clearly you casnnot seperate yourself from your own emotions and you should resign.

Thanks for your cooperation on this matter, have a nice day

[JeffYoung]

A thought: why don't we let this play out for a year or two and see what happens? I also tend to think that the departure of the unrestricted 325 from R will bring back a lot of old Z cars, and maybe bring in some 8V 944s. We'll see. If in a few years, the new "S" results in someone building a full tilt 944 and it can't make weight then maybe it's time to revisit this.

We've made a lot of changes quickly. Time to let things congeal a bit and see where they stand.

[dj10]

Dan Jones' BMW if he hangs in [/b]

Not hanging in S. B)

[Fastfred92]

Cars will be built and driven and run at the pointy end of the field by people that want to run them there. Unlike you there are people that can see the forest through the trees and have a reasonable expection that they personally need to be as competitive as the car they choose to drive.
[/b]

First off Sir, I would not choose a 944 again for that very reason, if I can't be competitive I would rather stay home ( that is just me, nothing personal ) and I beg to differ that even with the great Joe Harlan doing the prep, NO 944 8v will find it self at the pointy end of any ITS field short of: a lame 2 or 3 car field like out in the northwest, a giant crash in which the front runner ITS cars are sidelined, a significant cheated up 944, or a field that finds no well prepped RX7, Z, 240's, GSR, VWvr6 etc etc

Sorry to "piss" you off but the ITAC made its mind up against the 944, not just Joe Harlan..... Spend your Nissan money wisely

[Joe Harlan]

Touche' Joe and company......... Looks like the 944 was effectivly killed off per the march fastrack


[/b]
But thats not what you said Fred...You took the shot right at me.
..and trust me if I prep a 944 to the full letter of the rules it will run at the pointy end of the grid in any grid you choose because I am that good, and the car is classed correctly....You could have just as easily shared your disappointment without even mentioning my name.

Edit: you really don't give up do you....I missed it the first time but to make a comment like I get paid from Nissan is just complete bullshit its funny at first I thought you were just a whiner but now I think your a punk....Nobody on the ITAC or the CRB was influenced by anything other than the making of a good case for this car to stay where it is...I made that case cause its the truth and nothing more. If I have offended you with any of my current or previous statements that was the exact intent and I am not sorry for that....



Again have a nice day.

[924Guy]

Did the ITAC/CRB state that the car will never ever ever be considered again for move, or did it state that no changes will be made right now? Seems to me that it said neither of the above, exactly - but many here seem to be interpreting it as the former.

While I do wonder whether or not the car can a) make weight, and B) be competitive at that weight, even as a Porsche racer (among maybe half of the people on this thread) I have to admit that there is little lost by keeping with the status quo, giving this situation more time to sort itself out. Those 944 racers who want to be competitive and aren't willing to change and run a different car - they've mostly already left anyway.

This isn't Prod, and I for one don't want it to be! I find the idea of comp adjustments yearly to be a bit absurd! I do think it takes longer than a year to respond to such a change, and thus to see the benefit. Add on the fact that so many of those competitive cars are running elsewhere (or parked to run 944S's)... why not revisit this in another year?? The risks still outweigh the benefits, FOR NOW...

I know a number of 944 ITS racers. They're not out of options yet, in driver development as well as car development.

[lateapex911]

Jake, please I know you get your kicks trying to twist my words but stop or resign please. I tire of have you try to justify a poor position by twisting peoples words, you are clearly not objective enough to serve on this committee and you should just quit. you can beg to differ all day long but beg to differ with someone else. This thread required no further input from you as an ITAC memeber. MY Alphin made a direct statement at me and I even tried hard to avoid responding to it. The only reason you responded was to have a go at me and I am tired of it. Again clearly you casnnot seperate yourself from your own emotions and you should resign.

Thanks for your cooperation on this matter, have a nice day
[/b]

Joe, common sense tells me to drop this issue.

(Laughing) sometmes I guess common sense gets ignored.

I reread my comments, and yours, where you said the 944 would return to promonence once the overdog E36 was gone. I differed, stating that the E36 wasn't an overog, and that I just don't think it's that black and white.

You've called for my resignation. Not happening.

However, I strongly suggest that you copy and paste your comments into a letter to the CRB, and include a link to this thread. If the CRB (my bosses) feel I am as defective as you say, and request my resignation, I will of course find better places to spend time ....

Really Joe, it doesn't take long to cut and paste an email together.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, common sense tells me to drop this issue.

(Laughing) sometmes I guess common sense gets ignored.

I reread my comments, and yours, where you said the 944 would return to promonence once the overdog E36 was gone. I differed, stating that the E36 wasn't an overog, and that I just don't think it's that black and white.

You've called for my resignation. Not happening.

However, I strongly suggest that you copy and paste your comments into a letter to the CRB, and include a link to this thread. If the CRB (my bosses) feel I am as defective as you say, and request my resignation, I will of course find better places to spend time ....

Really Joe, it doesn't take long to cut and paste an email together.
[/b]

Jake I don't need to cut and paste. The letter is sitting in my draft box and will likely be sent. I don't believe you are objective enough to do the job...Nothing personal.

[Fastfred92]

Hey Joe, How bout you wait just long enough ( on that letter you have in your draft box ) for my request to have the 240 moved up to ITS or weight added, give Jake another shot at pissing on your parade

[Joe Harlan]

Hey Joe, How bout you wait just long enough ( on that letter you have in your draft box ) for my request to have the 240 moved up to ITS or weight added, give Jake another shot at pissing on your parade
[/b]


Fred, sorry but the letter is sent..Send your request to move the 240 my guess is since it was one of the first cars to get the process applied and it gained weight (with out a single bitch) that it will meet all the specs for an ITA car again. You are welcome to be as big a jackass as you choose cause I have no problem with myself or my facts on this issue. You though should be feel bad that you would stoop to the level that you have in trying to make it look like I am on the payroll to a manufacture...real dickhead kinda thing to do if you ask me.

[Fastfred92]

Now Joe, I have not resorted to calling you or anyone a jackass or dickhead ( my personal feelings aside ) and to clear up this I also do not suspect you of being on anybody's payroll ( actually I suspect not )....
You simply offered the greatest opposition ( vocally, that is, on this board ) to a fair request I made as a card holding member of this here club. The ITAC did not agree in full that my request was valid, that is the end of that for now. As a member here I have a right to ask these things, I have not ever said that I have a right to be 100% approved on any request I make, in fact I am batting somewheres around .275.
Facts are that a 944 will never be a ITS player because its hp / weight is all but impossible and by all accounts is very much a tweener,,,,, my remedy was to move it down one step with the proper weight to acheive the target hp/weight which infact is almost exactly the same as your beloved 240.
I would not have complained one bit about a few more pounds on my ITA 240 either because as you have so sucessfully agrued ( 944 ) it should be a light ITS car, No?


YOU, have a nice day sir

[Joe Harlan]

First off Sir, I would not choose a 944 again for that very reason, if I can't be competitive I would rather stay home ( that is just me, nothing personal ) and I beg to differ that even with the great Joe Harlan doing the prep, NO 944 8v will find it self at the pointy end of any ITS field short of: a lame 2 or 3 car field like out in the northwest, a giant crash in which the front runner ITS cars are sidelined, a significant cheated up 944, or a field that finds no well prepped RX7, Z, 240's, GSR, VWvr6 etc etc

Sorry to "piss" you off but the ITAC made its mind up against the 944, not just Joe Harlan..... Spend your Nissan money wisely[/b]

No further input from me is needed, you took the first shot which was a dickhead move. The fact that I advocated against your request should not be a reason to make those kinds of accusations. Read the full 18 pages closely. You will see that some of the FACTS I brought out actually made others that normally don't agree with me have a change of mind. I am done posting in this thread. Do as you want with a letter on the Nissan and I will present FACTS to support the current classification. You have only offered emotion based on your lack of prep skills and thing you have not been able to get done in the past. Sorry Fred but that is what drives most requests for relief, I am not shy about saying sometime you gotta pay somebody to get it right otherwise you have to just accept your own skill set and enjoy what you end up with.
Last, I have no personal interest in any single marque of car I enjoy and race a Nissan but I have VW,Healy,Pontiac all in my shop today. My interest is strictly in good close racing and I was an even bigger advocate of correcting the E36 deal for the last 5 years. Balance inside a window is all I care about and that balance is getting better everyday. The ruling on the 944 was the correct one and if I had anything to do with that ruling great. If people smarter than me figured it out on their own thats great too but nobody took a payoff to make the choice and those are facts.

[Greg Amy]

I like Beer...

[JeffYoung]

Greg! Come on! Calling people names on teh internet beats the shit out of beer!

[erlrich]

I like Beer... [/b] I prefer blondes.

[JeffYoung]

I like blondes in 944s. But prefer brunettes in 240s.

Earl, how ya been? You coming to SARRC/MARRS this year?

[Greg Amy]

I married a blonde...thus I drink beer...

[erlrich]

I like blondes in 944s. But prefer brunettes in 240s.[/b]Maybe I can talk Shauna Marinus into driving my car at VIR...

Earl, how ya been? You coming to SARRC/MARRS this year? [/b] Doing well, thank you, and I wouldn't miss that one for anything; I absolutely fell in love with VIR last year. Fresh motor, new shocks, new Hankooks...hopefully will give a little better showing this year too :023:

[Joe Harlan]

I married a blonde...thus I drink beer...
[/b]

Ha, since I don't drink I will have to treat you all to a boobie bar on my nissan money...Are there any that accept pocket lent for tips cause thats exactly what I got out of this deal....

[erlrich]

I married a blonde...thus I drink beer... [/b] Married a brunette; 3 times....now I will drink pretty much anything.

[Joe Harlan]

Married a brunette; 3 times....now I will drink pretty much anything.
[/b]

Hopefully not the same one? :birra:

[erlrich]

Hopefully not the same one? :birra:
[/b] Nope....although in many ways....

naw, better not go there :rolleyes:

[Joe Harlan]

Nope....although in many ways....

naw, better not go there :rolleyes:
[/b]
:P smart man..... :happy204:

[lateapex911]

I like Beer... [/b]

ha!

Send me one!

Email coming...

[Fastfred92]

Ha, since I don't drink [/b]


Well hell Joe, why didn't you say that up front! I remember you saying you didn't smoke grass but no drink??? On second thought, it make sense,,,,, you have been developing all those mad car prep skills, no time to drink :(

And you have already spent your nissan money? I will share some of my porsche payola and buy you a lap dance here in the southeast at the boobie bar of your choosing, if you ever make it over here

[Joe Harlan]

Well hell Joe, why didn't you say that up front! I remember you saying you didn't smoke grass but no drink??? On second thought, it make sense,,,,, you have been developing all those mad car prep skills, no time to drink :(

And you have already spent your nissan money? I will share some of my porsche payola and buy you a lap dance here in the southeast at the boobie bar of your choosing, if you ever make it over here
[/b]
You think I am an A**hole now just add booze....I quit drinking long before the cutoff date in prepared....I do manage to take in a boobie bar near every track I go to....so you never know sebring and daytona are high on the list of tracks in the next 3 years. But we can't take Jeff Young cause he's a lawyer and I quit them right after I quit drinking.... ;)

[Fastfred92]

Well I am pretty sure you are a A**hole but thats ok, most my friends are A**holes too. And sounds like the Shark lounge in daytona would fit the bill just fine....


?????However I am still not clear on the NO DRINKING / Strip Bar combination, not sure how that works?????

[Joe Harlan]

Well I am pretty sure you are a A**hole but thats ok, most my friends are A**holes too. And sounds like the Shark lounge in daytona would fit the bill just fine....
?????However I am still not clear on the NO DRINKING / Strip Bar combination, not sure how that works?????
[/b]

Designated driver gets special attention...... B)

[Tristan Smith]

"I like blondes in 944s. But prefer brunettes in 240s."


Jeff, I am flattered......I mean, geez, but you know I am .........married.

[JeffYoung]

Gross. I don't go for older guys.

You going to Rockingham?

[Tristan Smith]

Old huh? I suppose you will tell me I'm fat too. Mother warned me about you.

Nope, I am too buried in the house renovation right now. I am not sure when I will be getting out there. I guess first I have to clear my trailer of all the furniture that I am storing in it now. ugggh. It's like moving in all over again.

[JeffYoung]

No CMP in March?? And I know how you LOVE that track.

Glad the restoratin is moving along though. You'll be pleased when the house is squared away.

See at the track sometime this year, I hope. We'll all go out and get some beers.

P.S. -- Ron has taken your advice and is actively looking for a Porsche. Good move on his part. Me, I've got too much time and money in the 8. Will drive it till it kills me, which it may do.

[paul59]

Hi guys I'm new here and I'm enjoying the topic of weight and class. I have been racing a 944 for over ten years and 15k in development. I can tell you that I have the weight at 2405lbs ( full roll cage and fuel cell, and still has the stock windshield, side and rear glass) with out me in the car. Now I run with HSR, CHRA, and PCA... I haven't run with SCCA in forever because of the lack of competitveness in sprint races with the 944. When we run the enduros (3 24 hours of Morosso ) we do great.
This year at Daytona I was able to get my times down two a 2:22 flat... that is great for a 944, however the winning RX7 in ITS ran a 2:08, Hell there was a 944 S2 there and it only ran a 2:10 with a Pro driver. Do I believe that the Porsche is a great handling car, absolutly, can it be competitive in ITS at 2575, not no heck no.... ITA would be great but take a turtle and make it carry another and it takes the fun out of it... adding weight and slowing cars down ruins the fun. I would love to come back to the ITS class but a 25 year old car well developed has no business running with all of the newer cars... Try the vintage racing. I'm tring to get HSR to allow a Firehawk class to earn points in sprint races and enduros for the Rolex Watch at the end of the year... The more we get the more they listen...
Paul Goyette
Brumos Porsche
Jacksonville, Fl.
lildebbieracing.com

[Joe Harlan]

Hi guys I'm new here and I'm enjoying the topic of weight and class. I have been racing a 944 for over ten years and 15k in development. I can tell you that I have the weight at 2405lbs ( full roll cage and fuel cell, and still has the stock windshield, side and rear glass) with out me in the car. Now I run with HSR, CHRA, and PCA... I haven't run with SCCA in forever because of the lack of competitveness in sprint races with the 944. When we run the enduros (3 24 hours of Morosso ) we do great.
This year at Daytona I was able to get my times down two a 2:22 flat... that is great for a 944, however the winning RX7 in ITS ran a 2:08, Hell there was a 944 S2 there and it only ran a 2:10 with a Pro driver. Do I believe that the Porsche is a great handling car, absolutly, can it be competitive in ITS at 2575, not no heck no.... ITA would be great but take a turtle and make it carry another and it takes the fun out of it... adding weight and slowing cars down ruins the fun. I would love to come back to the ITS class but a 25 year old car well developed has no business running with all of the newer cars... Try the vintage racing. I'm tring to get HSR to allow a Firehawk class to earn points in sprint races and enduros for the Rolex Watch at the end of the year... The more we get the more they listen...
Paul Goyette
Brumos Porsche
Jacksonville, Fl.
lildebbieracing.com
[/b]

Paul, not to quibble but before you say it can ot be competitive you should call Greg Fordahl in Seattle, Greg has gone through his car since the rule change and developed a Z killer. Greg won Rose cup this weekend and was under the track record. The car is more competitive than it has ever been with the weight change and the BMW being fairly classed. You really should come back and give it a shot cause the car is really in the best spot it has been ever.

[paul59]

Where can I get some results from this race.. I would love to see them.
Paul Goyette
Brumos Porsche
Jacksonville Fl.
lildebbieracing.com

[lateapex911]

It's on MYlaps.com

Here's the results I found.

3 car ITS class. (thats sad)

128GREG FORDAHL (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newLapResult.jsp?id=552796&pos=15)http://www.mylaps.com/images/profile.gif (http://www.mylaps.com/profiles/index.jsp?id=43027)1830:44.552
1:30.866478.009http://www.mylaps.com/images/general_help_information.gif (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=552796&highlight=15#)-21RON TANNER (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newLapResult.jsp?id=552796&pos=17) 1830:54.89910.3471:30.545678.286 -372JON WILSON (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newLapResult.jsp?id=552796&pos=24) 1831:19.32234.7701:32.535576.602
I thought records needed to be set in the race.. These are the race results, so, if thqts true, he didn't set a record, as his fast lap was 3/10ths slower than the guy in second.

Too bad they don't list car models.

[Joe Harlan]

It's on MYlaps.com

Here's the results I found.

3 car ITS class. (thats sad)

128GREG FORDAHL (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newLapResult.jsp?id=552796&pos=15)http://www.mylaps.com/images/profile.gif (http://www.mylaps.com/profiles/index.jsp?id=43027)1830:44.552
1:30.866478.009http://www.mylaps.com/images/general_help_information.gif (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=552796&highlight=15#)-21RON TANNER (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newLapResult.jsp?id=552796&pos=17) 1830:54.89910.3471:30.545678.286 -372JON WILSON (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newLapResult.jsp?id=552796&pos=24) 1831:19.32234.7701:32.535576.602
I thought records needed to be set in the race.. These are the race results, so, if thqts true, he didn't set a record, as his fast lap was 3/10ths slower than the guy in second.

Too bad they don't list car models.
[/b]

Sad? FU Jake you have no right to belittle the efforts of the guys that were there. Fact is unfortunately most of the IT stuff gets raced in ICSCC these days and I am not going into the reasons why.

Fordahl 944
Tanner 240z Engines built by me and you all have seen the dyno numbers in the past
Wilson 240z Engines built by me and car was prepped by me.

Both of these Z's have held track records on both of our largest tracks out here. The wilson car was blocked at the tart by a 3500lb mustang and never could get around it. The run group this race was held in has 22 stupid classes thats what is sad. back to the point being made here. I spent some time talking to Greg this weekend and he has done an outstanding job redoing this car. The car is 2 seconds faster than it has ever been on this course. So what is sad Jake is that you open your mouth about something you have no understanding of.

[paul59]

1:30 on a 1.1 mile track? is that correct? I don't get it... is it real tight.. you can't tell from the pictures..

[JoshS]

1:30 on a 1.1 mile track? is that correct? I don't get it... is it real tight.. you can't tell from the pictures..
[/b]
Where did you get 1.1? It's 1.969.

It's not real tight.

[Joe Harlan]

Where did you get 1.1? It's 1.969.

It's not real tight.
[/b]


Paul, PIR with the chicane is actually a well balanced track fro handling and HP....It is flat but it has some decent highspeed scare yourself stuff and 2 long enough straights that the HP makes up for handling on those cars. The 944 clearly handles well and this one clearly made some decent HP. Comparison times are ITC 1.37< ITA 133 SM 132 T2 125&#39;s T3 130&#39;s I know the 944 practiced in the 29&#39;s off the clock but there was a watch on him. The point is call him, you know who he is and Greg can drive, prep, and engineer a nice car. I believe he would share the same respect for the people he is racing against and the prep level of those cars. ITS is coming back alive out here since we no longer have the E36 as the class killer and an ICSCC weekend will see a good mix of 8 to 10 cars BMW,Nissan, Datsun, Mazda and porsches. I believe we will attract them back to SCCA with the current rules set if we give it a little time.

[lateapex911]

Sad? FU Jake you have no right to belittle the efforts of the guys that were there. Fact is unfortunately most of the IT stuff gets raced in ICSCC these days and I am not going into the reasons why.

Fordahl 944
Tanner 240z Engines built by me and you all have seen the dyno numbers in the past
Wilson 240z Engines built by me and car was prepped by me.

. So what is sad Jake is that you open your mouth about something you have no understanding of.
[/b]

Please Joe, lay off. I merely said it was sad that there were only 3 ITS cars. I didn&#39;t belittle the cars that were there, and I am well aware of Mr Fordahls prodigious talents.

If you think I&#39;m being inappropriate, please ask for clarification rather than giving me the instant FU. Thats just rude.

[Fastfred92]

Thats just rude.
[/b]

Rude?? Joe?? You gotta be kidding me........

Keep holding your breath Joe for those magical, mythical competitive 944 ( non S ) cars in ITS, Fordahl included! Lets see him win the ARRC even in ITA...


Not knocking the man or driver, just kicking his horse :D

[m33mcg]

Are there any more results or lap times from other races in which a 944 (8v) have run in so far this season ? This type of info. would be helpful to me.

[Andy Bettencourt]

No 944&#39;s up here that I know of. Three nice 944S&#39;s in ITS and one being built (when is that coming Blethen?) while a couple guys thought about 944S2&#39;s for ITR. The main deterent seems to be the expense of the engine build and the price for stock replacement parts.

One of the better looking IT cars IMHO.

[JeffYoung]

There were a couple (8vs) at CMP and Roebling earlier this year -- Jerry Campbell and Scott AGnew were the drivers I think. You can find the results on mylaps.

Anthony Stauffer has an 8v I believe. He runs in the SEDiv but has had some issues this year.

[Joe Harlan]

Rude?? Joe?? You gotta be kidding me........

Keep holding your breath Joe for those magical, mythical competitive 944 ( non S ) cars in ITS, Fordahl included! Lets see him win the ARRC even in ITA...
Not knocking the man or driver, just kicking his horse :D
[/b]

There you go Fred you could have just kept your ignorant mouth shut and let it slide but you had to take a shot. Fordahl is driving an 8 valve car and has done a proper job of prepping it and you still have to knock it down. That more than proves you are the looser you make yourself out to be and I am sure given everything you ever wanted you would still be a looser. Learn to drive and prep a car and cme back to the big boys table otherwise shut the f up. I offered up a decent data point an d nothing more. Jake makes it out to have no value since there were only 3 cars there.....I have no doubt that you and Jake will climb into bed and continue to try to hand the car an ITA vicory at the ARRC.

[lateapex911]

Jake makes it out to have no value since there were only 3 cars there......
[/b]

Just to be clear, my comment stated that the number of ITS cars running (3) was sad. It&#39;s a popular class, and I wish it were better subscribed. I would have said the same thing if we were talking about ITA cars.

I wasn&#39;t knocking the data point.

I would love to see Greg run in Atlanta, but I realize it&#39;s a long tow and he seems to stick closer to home, judging by his my laps race history. I think he&#39;d be fun to watch.

[RSTPerformance]

No 944&#39;s up here that I know of. Three nice 944S&#39;s in ITS and one being built (when is that coming Blethen?)

The main deterent seems to be the expense of the engine build and the price for stock replacement parts.

One of the better looking IT cars IMHO.
[/b]

Andy-

Dads building away... The cage is installed (Chris Howard cage... looks friggen awsome!!!) and the other stuff is in the works. Need to sell the AS car to afford those extra expenses :). 1st race is planned to be the IT Spectacular in Ohio!!!

Raymond

[Team SSR]

We will have our 944 at Road Atlanta in July. We&#39;ve never been there before. We will have good tires for this race, so our lap times should be representative of a pretty well prepped car.

[924Guy]

Andy-

Dads building away... The cage is installed (Chris Howard cage... looks friggen awsome!!!) and the other stuff is in the works. Need to sell the AS car to afford those extra expenses :). 1st race is planned to be the IT Spectacular in Ohio!!!

Raymond
[/b]

Awesome, looking forward to seeing you guys there!! :birra:

[paul59]

How many guys run in the SE? Daytona, Moroso, Sebring, Homestead, Roebling, Atlanta... I&#39;m trying to find times from the ITS class to see what is compatible with what I do. I ran at Roebling in Jan on the new surface and did a 1:21, and Daytona with a 2:22 and Sebring a 2:40. Thanks for the help...

Paul Goyette
Brumos Porsche
Jacksonville, Fl.
lildebbieracing.com

[paul59]

Is anyone running in the SE? I looking for times at Daytona,Moroso,Sebring,Roebling, Homestead, to see where I stand. Here are my latest times, Daytona 2:22, Roebling 1:21, Morosso 1:45, Sebring 2:40, and Homestead yet to come.
Thanks for the help.

Paul Goyette
Brumos Porsche
Jacksonville, Fl.
lildebbieracing.com


sory for the double post, I&#39;m new at this...
Paul

[Joe Harlan]

Date Apr 28, 2007 11:00:00 AM
Event 2007 JIM STARK MEMORIAL (SATURDAY)
Group Group 6: ITR,ITS,ITA,IT7
Track Roebling Road (2.020 Miles)
Tasks Sort Results by Class
Show Lapchart
SEDiv SCCA




Best Lap Tm 1:21.230 In Lap 5
Best Speed 89.524 by John Williams

Pos No.
Name Best Tm In Lap Best Spd (Mph) Diff Gap Laps

Additional
Class: ITS

1 12 John Williams 1:21.230 5 89.524 10 -
2 86 Kent Thompson 1:22.316 6 88.342 1.086 1.086 6 -
3 79 Taylor Robertson 1:22.517 13 88.127 1.287 0.201 13 -
4 61 Dave Raymon 1:22.763 5 87.865 1.533 0.246 7 -
5 6 Mike Flynn 1:22.900 0 87.720 1.670 0.137 0 -
6 16 Harold Corbin 1:22.948 8 87.669 1.718 0.048 8 -
7 22 Tom Rogers 1:23.296 5 87.303 2.066 0.348 13 -
8 42 Kyle Vensel 1:23.596 9 86.990 2.366 0.300 12 -
9 59 Cliff Ira 1:25.128 6 85.424 3.898 1.532 8 -
10 44 Jeff Young 1:25.517 5 85.036 4.287 0.389 10 -
11 89 Russ Boatwright 1:25.789 6 84.766 4.559 0.272 10 -
12 77 Lynn Oldroyd 1:26.674 12 83.901 5.444 0.885 12 -
13 88 Gerald Campbell 1:27.568 12 83.044 6.338 0.894 12 -
14 08 David Plott 1:27.690 12 82.928 6.460 0.122 12 -
15 90 Kathleen Weddington 1:29.296 6 81.437 8.066 1.606 12 -
16 14 Steve Adcock 1:30.111 6 80.700 8.881 0.815 12 -
17 77 Mike Lacombe 1:31.313 12 79.638 10.083 1.202 12 -
18 78 Mark Pellman 2:38.636 1 45.841 1:17.406 1:07.323 1 -
19 04 Kip Vansteenburg --:--:--.--- 0

[lateapex911]

Just to add to those results, (And those are some known powers in ITS, by the way)

Williams dives a 240Z,
Thompson is a Speedsource RX-7
Robertson is a E36 BMW
Flynn is a Mercedes 190
Young is a Triumph TR8
Plott is a Z car
and VenSteenburg is a Miata.

Of course, thats all from my memory, so I could be wrong on a few!

[paul59]

Thanks Jake. I think i&#39;m going to have to get back into the ITS racing...

[JeffYoung]

Jake, all right except that sometimes KVan Steenburg shows up in a 944s (although I hear it is wrecked) and Mike Flynn actually came to Roebling with an E46 323 this past race.

[m33mcg]

Joe, thanks for the post. Are any of them driving 944(v8)? I don&#39;t know any of the drivers by name.


Can any person register with My laps? I see they require a transponder number and I do not have one.
Thanks,
Mike

I got registered with My Laps, just need to read it a little more carefully.

[JeffYoung]

In that particular group, Gerald Campbell is an 8V 944.

[Joe Harlan]

Joe, thanks for the post. Are any of them driving 944(v8)? I don&#39;t know any of the drivers by name.
Can any person register with My laps? I see they require a transponder number and I do not have one.
Thanks,
Mike

I got registered with My Laps, just need to read it a little more carefully.
[/b]


Fordahl&#39;s car in an 8v

Joe

[paul59]

does any one have a webpage with their cars on it. I&#39;m always looking for somthing new. set ups types of tires paint schemes etc... There are a ton of 944 (8v) ITS cars here in the Jacksonville area but most run in PCA or HSR and SVRA.

[924Guy]

does any one have a webpage with their cars on it. I&#39;m always looking for somthing new. set ups types of tires paint schemes etc... There are a ton of 944 (8v) ITS cars here in the Jacksonville area but most run in PCA or HSR and SVRA.
[/b]

I do... vaughanscott.com ...and as soon as I can get the pics from this season uploaded, you&#39;ll see more paint schemes - we had a group photo shoot with all the ITB and ITS water-pumpers this past race weekend (before it rained), will give you a couple of options...

[Team SSR]

www.saltedslugracing.com (http://www.saltedslugracing.com)

I have some build-up pictures. We built our car last year and re-built it this year. Be glad to answer any questions!

[paul59]

great sites guys... I love seeing the differnt ways that everyone uses to prep the cars, where they do it, I&#39;m in the garage also, like the most of us.
The videos are cool.
Is the hot tire the Hoosier? has anyone tried the new DOT Kumho?
I have made some changes for weight, light weight bumpers, etc..Is that going to afect me?
I have some good pictures and videos on my page...
www.lildebbieracing.com
I would love some feed back...
Thank you

[GKR_17]

I have made some changes for weight, light weight bumpers, etc..Is that going to afect me?
[/b]

I&#39;m not aware of stock light weight bumpers, so unless I&#39;m wrong you&#39;re not legal there. Possibly on the "etc" as well. You may know already since the bodywork is shown both ways, but the extra ducting on the hood and the headlight aren&#39;t proper for an IT car either. As for the tires, you&#39;ll be hard pressed to find anything other than Hoosiers at the front of any tough group. Good luck with the car, even at the new weight I expect the 8V&#39;s to face an uphill battle in ITS. By the way... 2&#39;08" in an ITS Rx-7 at Daytona??? I&#39;d like to see that results sheet, that seems way below any time I&#39;ve seen there.

Grafton

[paul59]

I&#39;m not aware of stock light weight bumpers, so unless I&#39;m wrong you&#39;re not legal there. Possibly on the "etc" as well. You may know already since the bodywork is shown both ways, but the extra ducting on the hood and the headlight aren&#39;t proper for an IT car either. As for the tires, you&#39;ll be hard pressed to find anything other than Hoosiers at the front of any tough group. Good luck with the car, even at the new weight I expect the 8V&#39;s to face an uphill battle in ITS. By the way... 2&#39;08" in an ITS Rx-7 at Daytona??? I&#39;d like to see that results sheet, that seems way below any time I&#39;ve seen there.

Grafton

Thanks for the input, I will try and get those results for you. I have them some where....

Paul

[Team SSR]

Paul59,
Car looks good on your site! As mentioned above - some issues with ITS legality in some of the pics. Also, you will find Hoosiers on all the front runners in the SEDIV. At well over $800 a set, racer&#39;s aren&#39;t just buying them because they look cool. If you do run the Kumho&#39;s, let us Porsche guys know how they do.

[paul59]

The Kumho&#39;s have been great I&#39;m going to try the new DOT ones in the next event at Daytona to see how they compare. I got 9 hours out of the last set, 3 at Daytona and 3 at Sebring... could have used fresh ones in the last hour of sebring, just a little slippery....hehehehe

[wpspeedracer]

"How many guys run in the SE? Daytona, Moroso, Sebring, Homestead, Roebling, Atlanta... I&#39;m trying to find times from the ITS class to see what is compatible with what I do. I ran at Roebling in Jan on the new surface and did a 1:21, and Daytona with a 2:22 and Sebring a 2:40.

Daytona 2:20, Atlanta 1:45, Sebring 2:39 in a S.
I&#39;ll be back on the track hopefull for the August race with the S rebuilt after The Crash at Daytona.

I also have an 87 S I just listed in the classified section if anyone is intested.

Mark

[paul59]

Mark, have you done some events with Nort Northam? He and I go back about 10 years racing together. Your name sounds familiar, thats all... Thanks for the times...

[wpspeedracer]

Nort got out of ITS about 2 years ago and went into HSR with an old 911.


Mark

[paul59]

He is running a FIA 30. in HSR, just came back from the glen... Is Gary Stratton building your cup car? He helped with mine..

[ryoji]

Is this recognized by all region?

http://216.197.105.57/GCR-Spec944-ITspec.pdf

[Zneed4speed]

Not by any SCCA regions that I know.
Those are NASA/Spec 944 rules so they would be recognized by NASA regions and PCA has now adapted those rules to create Spec 944 classes for PCA Club racing.

[ryoji]

The first sentence of the doc said


9.1.13. Spec Porsche 944 (S944) CATEGORY
"These specifications are part of the SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR) and all automobiles shall conform with GCR Section 9."[/b]

[Knestis]

It&#39;s my read that the Spec 944 rules are actually BASED ON the GCR and SCCA IT rules. The wording in the doc is a little misleading, I think.

K

[Zneed4speed]

Syntax error.
You are not looking at the GCR, nor a part of it.
Part of the text of the Spec 944 rules is in the GCR. Spec 944 uses the GCR as a reference because many are already familiar with it and to avoid writing a duplicate lengthy rulebook.

I&#39;m not knocking Spec 944, I&#39;m a 944 guy, but I wonder if Comeau has SCCA permission?

[944-spec#94]

Syntax error.
You are not looking at the GCR, nor a part of it.
Part of the text of the Spec 944 rules is in the GCR. Spec 944 uses the GCR as a reference because many are already familiar with it and to avoid writing a duplicate lengthy rulebook.

I&#39;m not knocking Spec 944, I&#39;m a 944 guy, but I wonder if Comeau has SCCA permission?
[/b]


It is a little complicated, but Tim Comeau, NASA, PCA & POC don&#39;t have anything to do with these rules.


Spec-944 was created in 2002 in Arizona just a few months after 944-spec was created in Arizona in 2002.

There were two founders of 944-spec in the Spring of 2002 here in Arizona. Over the summer the promoted the class and the Local NASA region picked up on it. SCCA wanted nothing to do with it. In time as sometimes happens the two founders began to have some disagreements. In the end they split up. 944-spec stayed in NASA and the other founder left and formed spec-944. Similar names, but different classes.

From the start the rules were similar, but not 100% the same. Over time NASA National adopted the 944-spec class rules. These are one you see in NASA, PCA and very similar version in the POC.

Spec-944 on the other hand ran in some local only racing orgs and then through sufficient car numbers and lobbying it was adopted in the Az region of SCCA. It took a few years, but it developed into its own class in the Az Region. From at that point the rules were revamped. Orginally they were free from rules with no basic starting point. (NASA rules were developed from the ground up for the 944). However with the SCCA adoption of the class they changed in form to a modified SCCA IT rule set. So while little changes were made to cars the rules now read as SCCA IT rules with these changes. The local group has had some success getting other regions to adopt the rules for events were 5-10 cars wil show, but ingeneral this is a regional only class and it NOT recognized in other regions. The NASA 944 spec class however is regconized in every region NASA runs in. Fields are largest in the west however.

For more details
944 Spec = NASA National Class & Porsche Club of America(SP1) & Porsche owners club(GSR) derived classes = http://944spec.org

Spec-944 = SCCA Arizona Region only class http://spec-944.com



BTW... I am the Arizona Region 944 spec series director for NASA and have been involved in 944-spec since the spring of 2002. I have the 2nd or 3rd 944 spec car ever built depending on how you want to count things. Tim Comeau is my counter part for the Southern California NASA region. Tim was instrumental in getting PCA and POC adoption of the NASA rule set. The PCA and POC rules are 95% the same as NASA rules. The differences are due to some recient changes made to the NASA rules at the start of 2007 that have not flowed into the PCA or POC rules. Both orgs have the choice of syncing NASA rules if they choose to.
I am not involved with the SCCA spec 944 class, but I do know quite a bit about them. SCCA spec-944 rules are probabyl 80% the same as NASA rules. There are a number of detail differences however and in general the NASA classes have a more restrictive spec. Some Arizona guys run both NASA and SCCA 944 classes and do well in both.

[geoffbaltz]

I&#39;m new here...first post. I&#39;ve been all PCA for 6 years and have some experience with SCCA when my buddy and I built an ITB &#39;84 VW GTI about 5 years ago. He drove and I broke knuckles.

With that said, this has been good reading. I am sitting in my garage in front of my newly purchased project 89 944 getting it ready for ITS. I had a 86 944 Turbo spec&#39;d for GT3 in PCA and wanted to leave the cubic dollar factor for a more cost effective class and be able to do SCCA. This car is an 89 and has the 2.7L motor from the factory (basically the 2.5 crank with the 3.0L 104mm pistons). The GCR in ITS shows weight at 2635 or 60lbs more than the 944 with the 2.5. This is still an 8v motor. Has anyone evaluated this setup? It seems to have more potential and I am sure I can get the car below weight.