tires for 240sx ITA

[hgrewal]

some background again for those of you who didn't read my other post...
starting next season will be the first time i have ever raced on a track and i am planning on running in most races next season just so i can get exp. and lots of seat time. to make long story short, i bought an already built 1989 nissan 240sx ITA. :D



i am trying to figure out the size and make of the tires that i should run on this car. it came with hoosier 225/45 R15 road racing tires (i will find out the model later tonight and post it here) which are almost out of commission. i bought the car from someone in PA and he did good amount of testing on this car at Summit Point.

now i am in cali and will be participating in the SF Region tracks which include infineon raceway (http://www.infineonraceway.com/images/facility_ama_irl_web.jpg), thunderhill (http://www.thunderhill.com/html/trackmap.html) and laguna seca (http://www.laguna-seca.com/generalinfo/index.cfm?FuseAction=TrackMap). the average temperature around the area between march and october does not vary a whole lot expect occasionally and stays around 70-80 degrees for infineon and laguna seca and around 80-100 degree for thunderhill (this is just my best guess and is not the track temperature. someone who has run on these tracks before might know better).

being that this is going to be my first ever experience on any of these tracks, i am just looking for some suggestions / opinions on the type of tires i should run, tire pressures, camber settings, things i should look out for, and if you guys know of any local places that sell these tires at relatively cheaper prices.



thanks for all the advice in advance.

[lateapex911]

The previous owner has set it up for Hoosier, so thats probably the best bet...for the car.

But, they are a tad less forgiving than other brands, and are a bit faster as well. Hoosiers can be made, with lots of attention, to last a decent number of cycles. But that number varies considerably on things like heat, rotation, driver style, storage and so on, and even then there will be some drop off in lap times. Finding the actual number of heat cycles where they begin a more severe drop is difficult, and as I said, varies from car to car, driver to driver. Sorry to be so vague. Some of the more serious guys use them for a few cycles (2-4) then get a fresh set. Others get maybe 6-9 cycles out of them, and some get as much as a dozen. Tread wear is not the factor, drop offs in lap time are.

Now...whats the best bet for the driver?? Well other brands are more forgiving, but slower. And they last longer. Toyos for example have been said to hold up pretty well for double the life of Hoosiers

IF absolute lap times aren't your first priority, but getting out there and learning how to race is, the best way to do that is to just drive. So maybe a tire that lasts longer will help the budget, and get YOU more miles in the seat.

Look and see if Toyos are available in that size. If so, call the previous owner and discuss what setup changes he would consider if you were to switch.

Other good names are Hankook, Goodyear and Kuhmo.

Welcome to the madness!

[Z3_GoCar]

.....
being that this is going to be my first ever experience on any of these tracks, i am just looking for some suggestions / opinions on the type of tires i should run, tire pressures, camber settings, things i should look out for, and if you guys know of any local places that sell these tires at relatively cheaper prices.
thanks for all the advice in advance.
[/b]

Second on the Toyo RA-1's, they're a very forgiving tire that doesn't go soft when you run them hard. They also go through an amazing amount of heat cycles, many more than the Hoosier's, Kumho's, or Hankooks. While they may not be as fast they don't get as slow either when they go off. I've heard that you'll probably slow ~2 seconds when you pass the heat cycle limit. If you go to the Toyo dealer I think you'll find a racer/dealer in Castro-Valley. Size wise look for 245's as their the same width as 225 Hoosiers so you won't give anything up in terms of rubber. Good luck,

James

[handfulz28]

Hoosier, Goodyear, Avon, Toyo, Kumho, Hankook and perhaps in a year or two the return of the BFGoodrich R1 (who did I miss?)
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who says they've found a tire as "good" as the Hoosier, but that being said, I've only used Kumhos and Avons on my ITA 240 here in SEDIV. In the next weekend or two I might get to try the Avon Type "A" or whatever their second gen tire is, and also the Kumho DOT slick (V710) which I haven't tried yet. So far I think they don't give up much to the Hoosier.
If I remember from your other posts, you've done track days before, so you know your way around a track. Going racing will add a whole new dimension to your tire outlook. If you have the patience to build seat time without the pressure of trying to stand on the podium, buy a set of inexpensive race tires and wear them to the chords. Theoretically, a less grippy tire will provide an opportunity to hone your skills further; a super grip tire may mask areas that need attention.
Or, if you've got the budget, use the Hoosiers that the car was set up for, as there is good value in the previous owner's efforts to dial in the car.
Either way you'll be able to monitor tire wear and lap times, and build a record of your performance to compare to what the car is capable of.
Good luck, have fun,
Michael

[hgrewal]

If I remember from your other posts, you've done track days before, so you know your way around a track.
[/b]


Michael, you might be confusing me with someone else, I am completely novice to this and haven't done any track days before :o

So, if I go with the different set of tires other then hoosier what else will I need to adjust on the car from suspension stand point. what is the best way to figure out what the better camber and toe settings are for the tires and what kind of tires pressure should I run at. My thinking is that this will depend a lot on the track temperatures on the race day.




In the next weekend or two I might get to try the Avon Type "A" or whatever their second gen tire is, and also the Kumho DOT slick (V710) which I haven't tried yet.
[/b]

When you talk about testing different tires do most people actually buy these tires or is there something else I should know about somehow getting these tire companies to let me test some tires too. It must get really expensive if you guys are actually buying sets of all these different types of tires for testing.

[Z3_GoCar]

Test and Tune days are your friend. Not only are they less expensive than your typical HPDE, it's your chance to get the set up right. It really helps to have someone with experience to work with, take tire temps and pressures, make sure the car's drivable/raceable, and help with figuring the best way around a track. Also look for Trackmasters, Checkerd Flag, NASA, and any other chance to get out on the track in your first few years, events at Thunderhill are usually quite reasonable in cost. You'll just have to get used to the long drive up the valley to get there. Welcome to the maddness.

James

[erlrich]

So, if I go with the different set of tires other then hoosier what else will I need to adjust on the car from suspension stand point. what is the best way to figure out what the better camber and toe settings are for the tires and what kind of tires pressure should I run at. [/b]Camber and pressures are the major areas you'll be adjusting when you change tire types. As James mentioned the best time to do that is on a practice, or test & tune day. If you're mechanically inclined and comfortable with making suspension adjustments you can do the testing/tuning yourself, but if you know someone with experience it will be much easier, and probably will go a lot faster. At the minimum you'll need to pick up the basic chassis setup tools: tire pyrometer, caster/camber gauge, and toe plates or a toe gauge. There are numerous books out there on the topic, and several websites also have good info on suspension setup (try the Longacre website for starters), so do a little homework before you jump in with both feet.

I would also agree with starting on Toyos - I started out this year (my first year of w2w racing btw) with them on my 240SX, ran my driver's school and four races on them before switching to the Kumhos, and they still have plenty of life left in them (they are now my practice/backup tires). I think they will probably also be the most tolerant of setup and/or driver abuse.

[joeg]

Hoosier.

(Best tire, best track support).

[Marcus Miller]

Tire Suppliers:
http://www.aimtire.com - owned by Ron Cortez, located at Sears Point in the upper area by the kart track. He is your guru.

Also there is Roger Krauss racing, as James mentioned in Castro Valley. I know they sell Goodyear...


Welcome to SFR!

Marcus



Hoosier.

(Best tire, best track support).
[/b]


Nice Generalization. Wrong, but nice.

Ever raced in CA?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Tire choice is very personal. If you need longevity while you get yourself and your car up to speed, try the Toyo. I suggest 225/45/15 or 225/50/15 depending on your R&P. If you need 'more' gear, go with the 45. If you have enough, go with the 50.

IF you can go with the 50, go with the Goodyear GSCS in 225/50/15. IMHO this tire (and the new RS in 205/50) is the best tire, bar NONE, on the market for a RWDer. Many people make the mistake of assuming the Hoosier is better and cheaper. It is not cheaper and better is up to you to decide.

AB

[DavidM]

Hoosiers definitely come at a premium. The general consensus is that they are faster if you're a good driver. I've been running them just to learn to drive on them. I put 13 heat cycles on my last set and even my slow ass could tell they were getting sloppy. You can make them last a decent amount of time if you take care of them and aren't trying to get that last .1 second. The 225 Toyos are definitely narrower than the 225 Hoosiers if you go Toyos. Somebody said the 245 Toyos had a comparable width to the 225 Hoosiers. The Toyos will probably have a little higher sidewall as well. The Hoosiers are a much squarer tire.

I'd say go Hoosiers if you can afford them and just run them till you can't stand driving on them anymore. If you want to save some money, go Toyos.

David

[hgrewal]

On Hoosier site I found that they have a sale on all their out going model's https://www.hoosiertire.com/discontinuedtires.htm and I was looking at R3S05 (R3S03's are currently on the car) and A3S05. They don't have the 225's in R3S05 but they do in A3S05's. I believe the main difference in these two is that A3 is little more softer then the R3 - correct me if I am wrong. From your perspective will it be better to try R3S05 in 205/50R15 or shall I just get A3S05 in 225/45R15 they are about the same price ($135 ish). How much of a difference will it make with the tire being 20mm less wide? Generally speaking, is it better to sacrifice the width for the tire being less soft (you already know from my last post the kind of temperatures that I will be running in) or the other way around?

[its66]

What color is this 240? (I know, completely irrelevant to the subject)

[Z3_GoCar]

On Hoosier site I found that they have a sale on all their out going model's https://www.hoosiertire.com/discontinuedtires.htm and I was looking at R3S05 (R3S03's are currently on the car) and A3S05. They don't have the 225's in R3S05 but they do in A3S05's. I believe the main difference in these two is that A3 is little more softer then the R3 - correct me if I am wrong. From your perspective will it be better to try R3S05 in 205/50R15 or shall I just get A3S05 in 225/45R15 they are about the same price ($135 ish). How much of a difference will it make with the tire being 20mm less wide? Generally speaking, is it better to sacrifice the width for the tire being less soft (you already know from my last post the kind of temperatures that I will be running in) or the other way around?
[/b]

The A3xxx is an auto-cross compound tire. In an auto-cross you want a tire that'll heat up like right now, then you'd manage the temperature by spraying water on it, covering it to keep it out of the sun, and other means. The A3 would make a good qualifying tire, except that as a amature-club racer verey few have the ability or the clear track to take advantage of a pure qualifying tire. After about 2 or 3 laps the A3's will be toasted and well overheated, so unless you're going out and auto-crossing too, avoid the A3's. Now how much are you giving up by going with a narrower tire, well it depends on what your car weights and the roll camber charateristics of your suspension. In a good weekend including a day of testing and tuning (T&T) to get a feel for how the car's responding I can put on 10 heat cycles pretty easily, five at T&T, three on Saturday Race day, and two on Sunday race day, and that's not going out in every session during the T&T. So are you ready to change out your tires after every full weekend?? If you're like me, I did my Super School Last June and only got my car out on the track in September with my first race at Laguna-Seca with SCCA Vintage/BMWCCA-Club Racing's fall event, you won't miss any super grippyness from Hoosiers. My biggest challenge is working on braking and not flat-spotting, Hoosiers will flat-spot as easily as Toyo's but you're going to be throwing away more money at flat-spotted Hoosiers than you would at Toyo's. If you want a real deal on tires check out Serria Tires in Las Vegas (a division of Frisby Tires) They have a close-out on Hankook's. I believe they have your size and the tire won't require shaving either. This tire is being closed out, but is the tire still sold in Japan/Europe. I just tried a set of these, and personally I liked the Toyo's better, but these may suit your car better. I had a set up issue with them that I wasn't able to work out because of a lack of testing on them. In the end I just lived with the compromise just to finish the weekend race out and get my license endorsement. So my decision goes like this, Toyo's live longer, more consistent over their life span, so I get more seat time per set, so that I can develop my driving skills, so that I'm no longer the limiting factor to how fast I can go. Once I reach the point that I'm more consistant and the Toyo's limit my lap times, then I'll revaluate my tire choices.

James

[hgrewal]

What color is this 240? (I know, completely irrelevant to the subject)
[/b]


for now it is Red/White but that will change soon :rolleyes:

[handfulz28]

Mr. H, forgive the leap of faith. I must have ASS-umed from your posts that you had reached a level of experience that would lead you to the more intricate details of tire selection and "racing" up-keep.
When I raced Nationals I used BFGoodrich tires and enjoyed occassional benefits. Over the last 6 years of racing IT with the same car, I've acquired 4 sets of wheels (not including the OEM wheels) so you could say my "investment" provides me a bit of tire & wheel "luxury"...haha But these days almost everything comes out of my pocket. By the way, I didn't go to the Sebring test day today so I've actually got 3 different sets of brand new tires...ugh
Alright, back to your issue. So at this point have you completed any of the required "schooling" to earn your competition license? It seems that you haven't. While it's comendable to research here to gather as much information as possible, right now I'd say don't sweat the details. Make sure everything is good to go on the car, all the fluids, brakes, safety equipment, etc. Don't run 205s, but do take advantage of any clearances on the Hoosiers (NOT the As, but the Rs), Toyos, Hankooks, whatever. If you're doing the SCCA school route, you'll have two weekends right there to wear out some tires. But don't even bother worrying about whether you've got the "right" tires, you'll have way too much going on for that.
I think my original advice still applies: if money is not an issue, continue using the tire that came with the car, and prepare to have spares available as you learn what you can and can't do with a Hoosier. Otherwise, get the least expensive racing tire and concentrate more on honing your race craft. Keep it simple in the beginning, that way you'll actually have more fun.
Good luck, have fun,
Michael

[fiat124girl]

Jude and I only run Hoosiers on our ITA 240SX. We ran Avon's once and disliked them so much that we gave them away after only two sessions.

[erlrich]

I didn't go to the Sebring test day today so I've actually got 3 different sets of brand new tires...ugh[/b]Michael, I take it from your earlier post that one of those sets are the Kumhos? If so keep a close eye on them; apparently they don't like too much camber or pressure (you've probably already read the thread on this in the tech section). I had one blow out a section of tread about the size of my palm last weekend, even though it was on its 6th heat cycle at the time, and had shown no signs of impending failure up to that point.

[handfulz28]

Thanks Earl, will do. Yeah, I read most of that thread I think and was thinking that was the problem before it was confirmed.
A set of Avons carried me to a 3rd and 2nd in class at Daytona last year with zero test time. One day was a rainy/wet start. Good enough for me to try their second generation tire this year.