Fiero or Mustang?

[Gearheadotaku]

beginning to plan my first build, trying to choose between 1988 Fiero or 91-93 Mustang for ITB.

I have experience racing Fieros in autocross, (runner-up for 2 seasons) and know more about GM cars in general, but the Mustang has more aftermarket support. Is the 91-93 twin plug motor the way to go, or an early carb car?

Fiero looks better on paper, 4 wheel disc brakes, mid-engine, 100lbs less and nearly equal power.

Any other thoughts?

I'd like to run RWD but options are few, even fewer if you want something American.

thanks

[trueblue]

The Fiero would sure be fun to drive. From a parts standpoint I would have to say a Mustang.

I like the early version Mustang motor with a carb. With that said I know Marcello runs FI with some success.

I am still looking to sell my ITB Mustang if interested. It is a great car that can win with a good driver. No DNF's. Full log book and started on the second.

I don't really want to sell it but it is cheaper than getting a divorce. B)

[billf]

Don't know much about the Fiero, but they have never been impressive on track. ITB cars use the Iron Duke which is pretty anemic in IT trim, pushing a heavy chassis. :dead_horse:

Mustangs are interesting...the After market support is there for the V8 stuff...read the other letters on the Ford site. Very little other than bushings, sway bars and wheels are available for IT cars. Brake pads are difficult to find if other than parts store stuff. Engines are generally anemic, the 8 plug included. The interesting part of a Mustang build is the considerable number of years that you have to choose from in parts...all on the same line.

The car should not be lowered excessively due to the Roll center falling off the face of the earth. The rear suspension sucks, since it will go into bind with roll and give snap overstear when the roll resistance of the rear goes wild from the rubber bushing bind. Gearing is difficult but there are bizzare possiblilties with machining and cleverness. Transmission ratios suck, and the car is an aerodynamic brick to be used by others as a vehicle to draft...if it went fast enough.

Some changes in the rear will reduce or eliminate the problem source, but it requires fabrication of parts, carefull reading of rules (legal), and money.

Struts for the front are DIFFICULT...Koni can be made to work after you re engineer the existing shock. Don't know of any inserts available for this chassis. Street units are not made for the necessary heavy spring rates.

Generally, the car is good fun, easy to drive after the rear problem is settled, great learning tool, safe from the mass perspective, very reliable, and the parts are terribly cheap. Spares are available at almost any Junk Yard. With judicious part selection minimum weight can be made with this car, but I doubt it would be with the newer chassis. They got heavier as time went by. We went with the earlier year chassis and a carb, building it from the ground up. Buying completed cars makes sense depending on your skill level and what the intended final result will be. Want to have the best example, build it from scratch. (That comment is intended for Mustang construction only.)

We built two of them. Would I do it again? Probably not, since I want to be competitive. I really prefer Rear wheel Drive for the shear fun of control, and balance. Currently considering ITS for that reason.

Good luck with your decision. : :wacko:

Good racing.

Bill :024:

[joeg]

Bill offers great advice.

If your choice is those two, the Mustang is the choice simply because OEM style parts for the Fiero are getting quite rare. I'm talking fairly basic stuff-like wheel bearings.

Ford Power!!!!

[924Guy]

Not much of a choice, IMO - take a look at the Waterford results from this year, when's the last time a Mustang ran a 1:19? Consider coming over to the dark side - the German cars are taking over!! RWD, IRS, 5 speeds, disc brakes, easy to drive - what more do you want??

http://www.racing4jim.com/Vaughan%20and%20Sammi%20on%20Victory%20Lap.jpg

[Z3_GoCar]

If you want rwd, go with the 924 or the e-21 318. Both have good suport for aftermarket race parts, both have good motors that can stand aginst the honda's/VW's and last the whole season. I'd even say go with an '02 but they're getting rare due to the tin-worm. I've got a very similar suspension to the e-21 and it's exciting going around high-speed corners with the tail hanging out. Sprechen Sie Deutch??

James

[924Guy]

Indeed... (pic by John Willyard)
http://www.waterfordhills.com/gallery/jwr6y0615.jpg

My tightest competition - that's an E21, right? I drove it, and it is indeed trying to put power down in the rain! LOL

Du will kanst Deutche-sprechen!

[trueblue]

True, those are great cars but the down side is they are expensive to buy parts for. I have owned a few 3 series BMW's and one 924. The mustang cannot compete out of the box but it is by far the cheapest and most reliable race car I have ever owned.

When set up right the Mustang works quite well. If you are on a tight track expect the other cars to out-perform.

And yes, we punch a pretty good hole in the air. :D

[Gearheadotaku]

Thanks for the input everyone. I recall seeing the BMW vs Porsche this year at Waterford. Good racing! There were several Mustangs there too, don't recall the finishing order.

[mattbatson]

what about a pinto?
there was one at the ARRC, and he had a fast lap time or two.

I looked at the car in the paddock, and it doesnt have anything really expensive in the suspension or such...
Could be a fast car with some development...read "money" B)

[m33mcg]

[attachmentid=673]There are alot of go fast parts for the fords out there. I have alot of performance parts and even have a 300hp 2.3 that I just finshed refeshing, but I could not find a class that would allow me to run my Esslinger head. In IT form most these parts and builds are not allowed thats why I brought a 944 for ITS. Now if you really want to race the 2.3 ford, EP would be the way to go. With the EP rules you could get 150 - 200hp out of a 2.3 with an investment of about $6000.00 and if you could get a car to handle you might be able to keep up with the rx7. I think the 924 would be the way to go, here are alot of 500.00 924 out there.

[attachmentid=673]
Here is a pic of my 2.3 pro-4 modified engine.

[Rabbit07]

I vote for the Mustang. Mine is always for rent and is a 2 time Waterford hills ITB champion.

[RFloyd]

I'd vote for the 924.

As far as the Fiero vs. Mustang, I'd put my money on the Ford. And that's coming from a GM guy (even though I race a Honda!)

The Fiero has good straight line speed for what it is, but it's a pig in the corners - at least the ones I raced against. Maybe it was the nut behind the wheel, I dunno.

I've seen a fast Mustang in ITB, for sure. I've also lapped most of the others in the CRX.

Wanna really come over to the dark side??? Get yerself a HONDA for ITB! 3 of the top 4 at the ARRC were Accords, and the 85-87 CRX Si is a killer B-car as well. So easy to drive it's rediculous.

[trueblue]

The Honda's are fast and they have huge aftermarket support but it is not American or rear wheel drive.

Another reason why I went for the Mustang.

[JamesB]

I agree those B hondas are fast, and gave me a run for the money. me I run what I know how to fix inside and out without even giving it thought.

So with all the options out there, if it where fiero vs. mustang the real question would be which one can you build and develope within whatever budget you can name. I dont see a fiero as the cheaper of the two options.

[shwah]

I saw a fast ITB Fiero set the lap record at Blackhawk last month by almost a half second, in admitedly very good conditions. It can be fast enough apparently. It was a Yellow car out of NW Indiana.

[lateapex911]

I saw a fast ITB Fiero set the lap record at Blackhawk last month by almost a half second, in admitedly very good conditions. It can be fast enough apparently. It was a Yellow car out of NW Indiana.
[/b]


Was it this one??

[shwah]

Nice picture.

No this was a 4cyl ITB Fiero. That appears to be a 6cyl ITA car.

[kgobey]

Csaba's Fierro? that's older than me... He's been racing that since Blackhawk had once less turn and my 1990 Miata was new.

[benspeed]

I will run a Fiero in ITA next year for some kicks - great car which nobody seems to know how to setup to eliminate the horrible push - all that will take is some test days and some $$ :P

Can you say 2.8 V6 with a stock 140 hp rating??? I just wonder if the rules let me pull off the wing?

[dickita15]

yes the Formula and Gt are on the same spec line and the Formula was wingless.

[benspeed]

Cool - I don't think that wing does anything but add weight to the wrong side of the car. Looks cool.....sorta....

[Rabbit07]

The hard part about the Fiero is getting Camber in the front wheels.

[Gearheadotaku]

This is great! I never thought my question would generate such a response.

The rear wing on the Formula is standard equipment, but an option on GT's(is that weird or what?) but it lowers drag by .02 (yes, it really does somethong other than look good...just not very much)

Getting camber on the front of an 84-87 is tough, but the '88 is much better. I ran -1.5 on mine for street/autocross with room to spare.

Remember, the '88 has a suspension and brake design unqine to its model year. It is a massive improvement over the 84-87 cars. I have owned both and there is no comparison. The brakes are the same for all '88 models, suspension varied slighty with spring rates, sway bars, and alignment specs. 4 cylinder cars did not have a rear sway bar. Formula and GT cars were the same underneath except the tires. '88 cars were stuck with 6" wide wheels in the front versus the 7" of the 86-87 GT. But with ITA allowing 7" all around, this helps the understeer issue a bit. I also found that NOT taking weight out of the front seems to help keep it planted too.

Both 4 and V-6 cars suffer from the same thing, overweight and underpowered (typical GM) and don't seem too popular here I am finding.

But I may give it a shot anyhow...Good V-6 cars are sort of expensive, and I'd hate to tear one up, so I'll most likely build a 4 banger for ITB.

Yes, buying a completed car is much smarter, but the build is 1/2 the fun right?

[manny]

i race a mustang in the north carolina area and although i have never finished in first place i hdo have many 2nd place finishes in the ECR's that i run in. the car is fun to drive and is very reliable to run also.

[924Guy]

The yellow flyer pictured earlier in the thread was recently for sale, is local to Waterford, may still be available. Didn't see an update as to whether or not it did indeed sell, but looked like it was going to.
http://www.waterfordhills.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6299

Oh, OK, it's an '87. That's my 24 behind it in the ebay pic... (from back when I was in ITA)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...AMESE%3AIT&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=017&item=270037048527&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1)