Ignition Switches and QD Steering Wheels

[toddgreene]

I see some cars with "racing switches" for the ignition and starter.
I also see some that still have the factory switch and key.

What rule allows for the substitition of the switch?

Also, what modifications are allowed to the steering column for usind a removable steering wheel?

Thanks,

Todd

[Greg Amy]

It's a very gray area, Todd.

The rules state that you must disable the steering lock (this is so the lock doesn't accidentally engage during a session.) Problem is, on some cars you cannot simply disable the lock without destroying its capability to remain in place and do its other function, that being control the electrics. My car, for example, was one of those: I don't recall the specifics since it's been about 5 years since I did it, but when I was disassembling my column lock I had to do something that made it unable to be reinstalled. I do remember being pretty frustrated about it.

Honestly, on any car once you've disabled the lock then the key part becomes nothing more than an electrical switch. If it still does the job, then there's no pressing reason for replacing your system with external switches. I wasted significant time, effort, and some money to figure out the best switch to use and how to wire it, and for what? So I could remove the key from my car? Big deal, I'm so cool, I'm racing a real race car...

So, back on point: it depends on your car. If you can simply disable the lock without additional mods, that's the most easy - and without a doubt legal - way to do it (Miatas are a good example: one well-placed drill and the whole shebang is disabled in 5 minutes.) If, however, disabling of your lock causes other issues, you may have to develop alternate means of electrical switching.

I certainly wouldn't advise doing simply "cause you can". There's just no value in it. - Greg

[dickita15]

What rule allows for the substitition of the switch?

[/b]

ITCS.17.1.4.D.1.e Any ignition system which utilizes the original distributor for spark timing and distribution is permitted…..

The ignition switch is part of the ignition system.






Also, what modifications are allowed to the steering column for usind a removable steering wheel?

[/b]

This one we have argued. I believe you can weld a QR to the column. Some think you cannot because while it says you can attach an alternate it does not specifically say you can weld it.

[tom_sprecher]

Weld the QR to the column. It says you can attach an alternate, and unless I'm mistaken, welding is a very common method of attachment in automobiles. :D

[Greg Amy]

Tom, the rule does not state you can "attach" anything; the rule referenced that allows QRs is the one that states 'any steering wheel may be used.' It just so happens my (bolt-on) replacement steering wheel includes a QR...

If you're comfortable that "replacing a steering wheel" allows welding to the column (I'm not, Dick is) then you're all set. Of course, then we go over to Ron's Mustang Suspension thread where he's welding and modifying stock suspension components to install allowed replacement parts, so there you are...I'm just sitting here thinking how all the "allowed replacement parts" in the rules will benefit me if "replacements" allows "modifications" to use them...remember, "air" is a material, now...

But, irrelevant: I, too, am retired. Except when it gives me a competitive advantage.

However, more importantly, there was a significant case this year where a welded-on quick-release steering wheel failed in a crash in a Spec Miata. After seeing that I will never, ever be comfortable with something welded to the steering column. - GA

[tom_sprecher]

Currently, my car has a welded QR and I would not have done it that way if I was starting from scratch. First of all, I can not remove the shaft from the column since the QR has a larger OD than the ID of the bushing in the column. A bolt on QR would eliminate this problem.

Secondly, with it welded I can not easily adjust the distance between the driver and the wheel. Ever notice how NASCAR guys run with the wheel almost against their chest? While a bit drastic, I would still like to have the ability of adjusting that distance. A bolt on QR and some kind of spacer would eliminate this problem.

The steering sector and column that came with the roller (and is unmodified) seems pretty worn out but I'll try to adjust it and see if it will work. I can make a bolt on, adjustable, QR steering wheel and solve the above problems.

With regard to attachment using welding or bolting, it really depends on the design and execution as far as which will fail first. And, IMHO when the good book says any steering wheel may be used that includes any steering wheel, no matter how many adjectives you use to denote a quality of the steering wheel, to indicate its extent, or to specify the steering wheel as distinct from something else (except wood rimmed). :018:

I also do not have a factory ignition switch as it went when the steering lock mechanism was removed, not disabled, as required by the GCR.

[Greg Amy]

I also do not have a factory ignition switch as it went when the steering lock mechanism was removed, not disabled, as required by the GCR.
[/b]

Right! that's what it was that got me on the NX: when I went to remove it I couldn't put it back in.

And as for the QR, well Tom, if ANYTHING is ANYTHING, then since struts are free then Ron is right: it's perfectly acceptable to modify steering knuckles, control arms, and whatever else you need to in order to fit in ANY strut you choose to install. I'll keep that in mind as we design our new struts (taking advantage of this rule to improve the geometry of the suspension while hiding behind "ANY struts are allowed"...)

Can't wait to take advantage of that "any hardware is allowed" or "any wheel is allowed" or "anything else in the ITCS is allowed" part...the mind reels with the possibilities...

[tom_sprecher]

I understand some of the logic behind your comment that "ANYTHING is ANYTHING", but Greg, I try not to use wide ranging generalities as it leads to so many "what ifs" it can detract from the discussion at hand and my wife will tell you I can only think of one thing at a time. :D

I think the GCR pretty well lays out what you are allowed to do with regard to suspension modifications. If you decide to "substitute struts , and/or may use alternative inserts" go for it. If it improves your steering geometry the I quess that is allowed to. I didn't read anything about it being "perfectly acceptable to modify steering knuckles, control arms, and whatever else you need to in order to fit in ANY strut you choose to install". I feel that would fall under modifying components that are not mentioned and that would violate the IIDSYCYC intent of the ITCS.

On my car the stock steering wheel is attached to the end of the column shaft. In my opinion, the fact that it is secured by a nut or a weld is insignificant, but I am allowed to used any steering wheel which gives me some leeway as to how to attach it, as long as I do so without the intent of gaining a competitive advantage. If I changed to a different make or manufacture of column or shaft that would be a different story.

Also, as far as the suspension goes, I read "hardware items (nut, bolts, etc.) may be replaced by similar items performing the same fastening funtion(s)". Unless I missed it, I did not see anything about "any wheel" or "anything else in the ITCS is allowed". The GCR is pretty clear about wheels and anything else allowed and that unless mentioned you can not disable, alter or remove anything for the purpose of obtaining any competitive advantage.

If it is not raining to bad we can discuss our viewpoints over a couple of beers. I hope to see you Wed. afternoon while helping park and finally put a face to a name. A safe trip to you and your entire group.

[shwah]

Right! that's what it was that got me on the NX: when I went to remove it I couldn't put it back in.

And as for the QR, well Tom, if ANYTHING is ANYTHING, then since struts are free then Ron is right: it's perfectly acceptable to modify steering knuckles, control arms, and whatever else you need to in order to fit in ANY strut you choose to install. I'll keep that in mind as we design our new struts (taking advantage of this rule to improve the geometry of the suspension while hiding behind "ANY struts are allowed"...)

Can't wait to take advantage of that "any hardware is allowed" or "any wheel is allowed" or "anything else in the ITCS is allowed" part...the mind reels with the possibilities...
[/b]

Except of course that no allowed modification may perform a disallowed function...such as changing suspension geometry while installing allowed struts.

[joeg]

Putting aside all the "rule nerd" talk, Greg's point about "welded" QR(s) should be well taken.

When I did mine on my P-Car, I avoided welding and went with a roll pin instead. Something about the composition of the steering shaft steel made me uncomfortable about using my mig. In addition, you need to disassemble things completely regardless of whether you weld or pin and welding can damage column bearings on account of the heat.

BTW, IMO any switch is cool, as is a QR, but as to the switch I am not that keen on loosing the functionality of the "accessory", "run" and "start" positions of the OEM keyed switch.

Cheers.

[JimLill]

These QR will fit anywhere a Momo wheel will. Downside is that the wheel may get moved back toward the driver. An alternate dish wheel might solve that.

http://www.checkpoint-racing.com/uploaded_photos/quickrelease_blu.jpg

[tom_sprecher]

Since the GCR states you must remove the steering lock mechanism and the lock mechanism and ignition switch were one die cast piece with no real way of removing either function separately I tossed the whole thing.

As far as losing the the accessory function, I installed a separate switch so I can listen to the radio between shifts. :D

That's a nice QR and I'll have to compare it to what Greg used and see which on will work the best.

[JimLill]

That's a nice QR and I'll have to compare it to what Greg used and see which on will work the best.
[/b]

Those things are out there in a broad range of price..... you can buy them real cheap for eval.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/QUICK-RELEA...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/QUICK-RELEASE-STEERING-WHEEL-HUB-MAZDA-3-5-6-MX_W0QQitemZ280045380726QQihZ018QQcategoryZ33704QQ ssPageNameZWD6VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[dick elliott]

Those things are out there in a broad range of price..... you can buy them real cheap for eval.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/QUICK-RELEA...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/QUICK-RELEASE-STEERING-WHEEL-HUB-MAZDA-3-5-6-MX_W0QQitemZ280045380726QQihZ018QQcategoryZ33704QQ ssPageNameZWD6VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
[/b]
What a rip off!!! Postage is $19.95 Part is $19.95. That part could be shipped at the post office for under $5.00.

[JimLill]

What a rip off!!! Postage is $19.95 Part is $19.95. That part could be shipped at the post office for under $5.00.
[/b]

When you buy from eBay that's alway a potential issue. Price obviously includes S&H, which in the case of that item is still a good deal compared to what other people are charging.

It is sad though that vendors play that game.

I bought one last year for $29.95 + 8 S&H

[Gary L]

When you buy from eBay that's alway a potential issue. Price obviously includes S&H, which in the case of that item is still a good deal compared to what other people are charging.

It is sad though that vendors play that game.

[/b]

Pardon the hijack, just have to comment. The "game" is played for many reasons, all of which benefit the seller alone. 1st, he pays less money to eBay for the sale, as S&H costs are not counted in the sales commission. 2nd, he can advertise an ostensibly lower price than the other guy, hoping to snag more potential buyers' attention. 3rd, if (and it's a big "IF") he warrants the item in any way, it will probably not include a refund of the original S&H charge. If you you send it back, you're out the artificially inflated shipping costs. Bottom line... he can make a nice little profit, even on returned items.

Ask yourself... do you really want to do business with this sort of individual?

[JimLill]

Ask yourself... do you really want to do business with this sort of individual?
[/b]

I don&#39;t and didn&#39;t.......... when I posted the original I didn&#39;t notice the crooked S&H scam.... The whole point I was making is that you can buy those thing for <$40.

As you&#39;ll note, I paid a reasonable $8 S&H for mine. I wish eBay would address this issue.

I took this to heart and reported a whole string of QR high S&H to them

[Greg Amy]

What a rip off!!! Postage is $19.95 Part is $19.95. That part could be shipped at the post office for under $5.00.
[/b]
It&#39;s not done primarily to rip you off on shipping, &#39;cause they expect you&#39;ll figure that cost into the bid price. They do this in order to cut down on eBay fees. eBay charges a percentage of the sale price to the seller, but nothing on the cost of shipping. So, instead of your paying $40 for the part and $5 shipping, you see that the shipping is $20 so you bid $25 instead. You pay the same thing and the seller pays less in fees to eBay.

&#39;Course, if buyers are silly enough to pay $65 for something they can get for $45, well then the seller is more than happy to give a cut of that to eBay...