BMW FUEL CELL SIZE

[BMW RACER]

My apologies if this has been covered before.

If you can position the cell within 12" of the original tank, there is no maximum size?

If you have a car like a BMW the ITCS states "trunk mounted fuel cell no larger than stock"

Now then: If you can make it fit in your BMW, can you mount a fuel cell in stock location? If yes, can it be any size?

If you can't. It seems that every car except BMW can run any size fuel cell, BMW can only run a stock size fuel cell.

Is this another case of THE MAN keeping BMW down?

Enquiring minds need to know

[Knestis]

...and further, there is no consistent rule for oversize fuel tanks for enduros. Each event's supps typically have SOME kind of rule, but they vary. I'm inferring that you are talking about endurance races, since a stock tank - or smaller - would typically suffice for sprints...?

K

EDIT - I have no idea whatsoever the BMW spec-line note is supposed to accomplish, where it came from, or who put it there.

[Andy Bettencourt]

John,

I have no idea the history of that cell rule for the E36. I will put it on the next ITAC agenda if you wish. Worst case, I just see it getting removed. Seems weird but I will find out for you.

Oh, and congrats to Dan Jones on his track record at Mid-Ohio, Carlos Garcia for his runaway regional championship in the Southeast...and Dave Maynard for his win at the NARRC Runoffs - all in SIR equipped E36's. The situation stunk, you guys made lemonade out of lemons and you proved everyone wrong who said the E36 was dead.

[JoshS]

Although I'm not intending to run a fuel cell, I've always been confused about this positioning rule (this wording is repeated in several parts of the GCR for different racing categories).

Does 12" of the original location mean that some part of the cell has to be within 12" of the original tank? Or does it mean that ALL parts of the cell must be within 12" of the original tank?

[gpbmw]

I'm presently looking into a fuel cell (perhaps wellcell) for ITR. My understanding is it cannot be larger than the OE capacity size. I believe a well cell fits the location and capacity criteria.

I agree the E36 is not dead after seeing a new track record at Mid Ohio. Well done....!

Gerald Potts
Atlanta, GA.

[lateapex911]

Josh, yes, that means you can have a cel within a 12" range of it's original tank location. Lots of freedome there. If you want to push it though, snap some pics to show your skeptical competitors!

Essentially, it menas the new cels LR corner could be 12" to the right and in front of the old tanks RF corner. Thats a lot of options!

Do BMWs often have fuel tanks located above the axle kinda behind the seat? I think they did...or do, and in that case, mounting a cel on the floor of the trunk, in what many think of as the "standard" cel location, would run afoul of the 12" rule. My understanding was the rule exception was in place so as to allow that "standard
cel placement in situations where the stock tank was in an otherwise impossible location for a racing cel.

Not a case of the MAN keeping the yuppies down. ;)

[latebrake]

I ran a 944 with a 12 gal cell in the passenger seat area. 11 inches from the stock location. passed just fine.
as long as any part of the cell is within 12 inches of the tank it makes the cut for legal.

Lawrence

[Knestis]

... My understanding is it cannot be larger than the OE capacity size. ...[/b]
Have you got a source for that? I don't recall seeing it but have been known to miss things.
Kirk

[gpbmw]

Have you got a source for that? I don't recall seeing it but have been known to miss things.
Kirk
[/b]
At the moment no...but I will attempt to pinpoint the source of my previously stated observation...prior to changing my fuel storage/delivery system.

Gerald Potts
Atlanta, GA.

[BMW RACER]

Let's narrow this down a bit. Do you think it's legal to instal a fuel cell in the stock location on a BMW E36? Or must you instal it in the trunk?

[zchris]

And the nice thing about putting the cell in the passenger seat area as opposed to further back is it lessens the effect of the changing fuel load over the the length of a race on corner weights. Makes the car much more stable in enduros. This of course works only if you are not traction limited in the rear. Some need the weight out back for wheel spin issues.
Chris Howard

[Knestis]

Let's narrow this down a bit. Do you think it's legal to instal a fuel cell in the stock location on a BMW E36? Or must you instal it in the trunk?
[/b]
If I were still in the NERD business, I'd say no...

Trunk mounted fuel cell with no larger
capacity than stock.

That language would suggest that it's a requirement, absent the word "may." Again, I think that all of those individual model spec-line "notes" are suspect...

K

[RickyBobby]

Oh, and congrats to Dan Jones on his track record at Mid-Ohio, Carlos Garcia for his runaway regional championship in the Southeast...and Dave Maynard for his win at the NARRC Runoffs - all in SIR equipped E36's. The situation stunk, you guys made lemonade out of lemons and you proved everyone wrong who said the E36 was dead.
[/b]

Based on the successes of the SIR’d E36 in 2006, it’s pretty obvious that the exaggerated HP claims by many were complete BS and sour grapes.

The fact is, the E36 adapts quite well to the IT rule set. Glad things turned out the way they did.

[dj10]

Based on the successes of the SIR'd E36 in 2006, it's pretty obvious that the exaggerated HP claims by many were complete BS and sour grapes.

The fact is, the E36 adapts quite well to the IT rule set. Glad things turned out the way they did.

[/b]



Take it from me. This ISN'T entirely true.

dj




And the nice thing about putting the cell in the passenger seat area as opposed to further back is it lessens the effect of the changing fuel load over the the length of a race on corner weights. Makes the car much more stable in enduros. This of course works only if you are not traction limited in the rear. Some need the weight out back for wheel spin issues.
Chris Howard [/b]



To me there is nothing nice about having 16 gal. of fuel next to me, bulkhead or not.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Based on the successes of the SIR'd E36 in 2006, it's pretty obvious that the exaggerated HP claims by many were complete BS and sour grapes.

[/b] This doesn't even make sense.

[BMW RACER]

Folks.

Since it seems that BMW and the Fiat X19 are the only cars that are limited to stock sized fuel cells what can we do to change the rule to either: Everyone can run any size tank OR everyone has to run no larger than the stock size?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Folks.

Since it seems that BMW and the Fiat X19 are the only cars that are limited to stock sized fuel cells what can we do to change the rule to either: Everyone can run any size tank OR everyone has to run no larger than the stock size? [/b]

John,

Drop a letter to the CRB: crb AT scca DOT com

It will get on the ITAC's agenda and we will get it squared away for you. I don't see any reason why the rule is in there....but we will find out. Seems it should be eliminated and the 'regular' rules applied.

[Greg Amy]

...it’s pretty obvious that the exaggerated HP claims by many were complete BS and sour grapes.[/b]

With reverence to the Doctor:


[attachmentid=663]

[shwah]

To me there is nothing nice about having 16 gal. of fuel next to me, bulkhead or not.
[/b]
I would like having the fuel cell in the location that it is least likely to be contacted by an outside object/car. I don't know that the passenger seat area is not that location.

[dj10]

Folks.

Since it seems that BMW and the Fiat X19 are the only cars that are limited to stock sized fuel cells what can we do to change the rule to either: Everyone can run any size tank OR everyone has to run no larger than the stock size? [/b]

Hey John,

Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought that all IT cars have to run the same capacity (in the fuel cells)as in their stock tanks? Which makes perfectly good sense to me unless some car has some very high capacity that I don't know about.

Dan

[JoshS]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought that all IT cars have to run the same capacity (in the fuel cells)as in their stock tanks? Which makes perfectly good sense to me unless some car has some very high capacity that I don't know about.
[/b]
I think you are missing something, as you suggest. I don't believe there is any rule that limits fuel cell capacity. Specifically, the 2nd paragraph of section 19 says:

"There is no restriction of fuel cell capacity or dimensions of the fuel cell,
except where otherwise specified. The installation of more than one cell
is permitted."

I can find no "otherwise specified" that applies to IT.

For those people running fuel cells in the passenger seat area, how do you get around the bulkhead rule:

"There must be a metal bulkhead between the driver/passenger
compartment and the compartment containing the fuel cell."

Does this just mean that it has to be in a metal box? I don't think that a box qualifies as a bulkhead.
EDIT: bulkhead definition from GCR: "A partition separating compartments."

[dickita15]

"There is no restriction of fuel cell capacity or dimensions of the fuel cell,
except where otherwise specified. The installation of more than one cell
is permitted."
[/b]
be aware that some enduros do limit size in the supps.




Does this just mean that it has to be in a metal box?
[/b]

yes

[dj10]

I'm amazed that no one would limit how much fuel any IT car could carry in it's fuel cell!!! This makes no sense at all. IMO your fuel cell should be able to carry as much fuel as the stock tank it replaced period, end of discussion. How the hell did this one slip by the ITAC & CRB? :D

Dan

[Knestis]

The GCR was written for Club Racing events, which are historically sprints. The average person installing a cell is likely to go smaller rather than bigger. Should the rule require NOT LESS THAN the stock volume? Silly stuff.

K

[BMW RACER]

Just a thought. What if you had a car that requires a lot of ballast. Would you be better off running a larger than stock cell full of fuel in the trunk or lead in the front seat footwell?

Fuel = Ballast :o

[Bill Miller]

I think you are missing something, as you suggest. I don't believe there is any rule that limits fuel cell capacity. Specifically, the 2nd paragraph of section 19 says:

"There is no restriction of fuel cell capacity or dimensions of the fuel cell,
except where otherwise specified. The installation of more than one cell
is permitted."

I can find no "otherwise specified" that applies to IT.

[/b]

Uh, the spec line would be 'otherwise specified'.

[JoshS]

Uh, the spec line would be 'otherwise specified'.
[/b]

I guess you didn't read the message I quoted (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9417&st=0#), in which dj10 said that he thought that all IT cars had to run stock capacity.

[Bill Miller]

I guess you didn't read the message I quoted (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9417&st=0#), in which dj10 said that he thought that all IT cars had to run stock capacity.
[/b]


You're right, I did. Sorry about that.

[dj10]

Just a thought. What if you had a car that requires a lot of ballast. Would you be better off running a larger than stock cell full of fuel in the trunk or lead in the front seat footwell?

Fuel = Ballast :o [/b]



Depends where your car is heavy John. Don't forget we can run ballast up to the end of the front passanger door in 07.

[BMW RACER]

Looking through the 2007 ITCS for the ITR classified E36 noticed that the whole "cell in the trunk no larger than stock" is not there. Not sure what to think about that?

[ed325its]

I do not understand the confusion about the fuel cell rule. It seems very straight forward to me, but perhaps that is because I have been racing long enough to see the rule implemented.
1 Any IT car can run a fuel cell. One spot on the cells perimiter must be within 12 " of the stock location.
2 There is no limit to the size of the fuel cell.
3 The fuel cell must have a metal bulkhead between it and the passenger compartment.

Additionally, because the stock BMW tank is a saddle tank placed under the rear seat that wraps around the drive shaft it is allowed to place a fuel cell in the trunk. If this option is chosen it can be no larger than the stock tank and does not have to meet the 12" rule. I expect the size limit for the alternate location was to limit the use of a tank (fuel) as additional ballast.

The confusion for 2007 is that the exception remains for ITS BMW's and is not repeated for ITR. I believe it should be apllied to the ITR car as well. I wish the ITAC to take action to allow trunk mounted fuel cells in ITR.