cage updates from ITB to G PROD

[tom91ita]

i am updating / upgrading the ITB car to allow running National races to have more flexibility in running more race close to home. the fuel costs for two long tows can go quite a ways to paying for a fuel cell, etc.

i have also asked about what to do at the Prod board and some have said that bolt together cage from SS/IT is not allowed and it must be an all welded design but most seems to be commenting from recollection and not referencing rule sections. frequently on this board, there seems to be tech inspectors that also race and i just don't know who they are on the other board.

i can't find anything under section 18 of the production rules that says this.

in fact, part of the cage rules mentions removable bracing:



18.6.1. Bracing - Open and Closed Automobiles
All required bracing shall be the same diameter and wall thickness as listed in 18.1.6., Material. (Main and front Hoops)

b. Removable Bracing:
Removable bracing shall incorporate connectors of the double lug, tapered, or muff-type as shown in Figures 9, 10, and 11. The double-lug type shall include a doubler, gusset, or capping arrangement so as to avoid distortion or excessive strain caused by welding.
[/b]

if "bolt together" SS/IT cages are not allowed, how can there be removable bracing? Is it a matter of the design of the "removable" sections?

and if i need to make it "all welded" can i just weld the ends of the sleeves on for the "bolt-together" sections?

tia, tom

[joeg]

18.6.4 applies to Production Cages. Two parts--one titled Bolt In Cages (allowed).

There is a lot of misinformation out there. A good bolt-in cage is safe.

[tom91ita]

18.6.4. Mounting Plates deals specificially with the mounting plates and how they are attached to the car.

i am referring to the rest of the cage construction and that was i referenced "bolt-together" cages. the connections for the bars across the windshield, the rear braces where connected to the main hoop, etc. are bolted with sleeves.

are those type of connecting methods acceptable within the cage, not just where the cage is attached to the car?

tia, tom

[joeg]

yes. See figures #9, #10 and #11.

[ddewhurst]

With respect to the question of a bolt together roll cage for Production. When I read the Production roll cage rules I read specific facts that witten words 18.6.4. specify that one may bolt the roll cage into the chassis & I read specific facts that written words specify 18.6.1.b. Fig. 9, 10, 11 that one may have bolt in "removeable bracing". I do not read any specific written facts that allows one to use a bolt together roll cage using sleeves or otherwise bolted together as Tom is talking about.

Tom, no disrespect towards Joe or anyone else but maybe you need to make a call to Topeka. I don't buy into the typical Production thought process that if in the GCR/PCS it don't say you can't do it, go ahead & do it. :wacko:

Have Fun ;)
David

[tom91ita]

i am also in communication with topeka. but since the section is silent (does not say must be welded any more than it says it can't be bolted), i am thinking it is okay.

http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Roll_Cages.htm basically shows where the typical sleeves are on a "bolt-together" cage.

i suppose i could get the annual tech with the ITB class showing and then add the GP stickers? :018:

[ddewhurst]

***(does not say must be welded any more than it says it can't be bolted), i am thinking it is okay.***

Tom, I hate to change the color of your soup but it dose say in the GCR 18.1.7.b. Welding SHALL conform to:

To me a pinch of common sense along with some written rules tells me I can't within reason be bolting the entire roll cage together. I understand what the sleeves look like in a purchased roll cage. The GCR/PCS written rules spec welding & they spec the bolt together stuff allready talked about. I will be interested in hearing what Topeka has to say.

Have Fun ;)
David

[JimLill]

what keeps a bolt in cage from being properly welded at the sleeve junctions and thus becoming a welded cage?

[tom91ita]

i pretty much like all soups, regardless of color. i think the rules are somewhat vague and i want to make sure that the stepping stone of IT to PROD is not as slippery as it doesn't appear. B)

the production rules states:

11. Safety
1. Roll Cages: A rollcage complying with GCR section 18 shall be installed.[/b]
so the literal translation of that is any rollcage of section 18 since it does not state that it must comply with the Production section of 18.6
18.6 PRODUCTION ROLL CAGE[/b]GCR 18.1.7.b. is in the general section
18.1. BASIC DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS[/b]and, to me, the literal translation of that is any thing that is welded must be welded thus and so, etc.

18.2. SHOWROOM STOCK ROLL CAGE....SHOWROOM STOCK REMOVABLE ROLL CAGE
Tubing Joints - See Figures 2, 3, and 4[/b]figure 4 shows the type of sleeve that my car has at various points. the
REMOVABLE ROLL BAR BRACES ATTACHMENT DETAILS Removable Roll bar Braces Attachment Details [/b] section of Production cages 18.6, etc. shows two tubing joints very similar to the SS Figures 2 & 3 but nothing like the SS sleeves.

i am not sure if i can just weld the sleeves since this is not the preferred method of welded cage construction. i have seen cars with that type of construction but am not sure that it complies.

so far in my correspondences with topeka, they are asking
What parts are sleeved/bolted?[/b]and i am sending photos, etc.

if they were not allowed, i would think it would not matter what or where they were. i do not want to weld the sleeves in case they are not allowed and i need to remove those sections. and some are in really awkward places to weld 360° when the car is essentially intact 9e.g., the top front beside the windshield, etc.)

i'll update and share what i find out but part of my premise is that the Prod part of the rules is silent and so both welded and bolt together are acceptable. it might be sleeved is not allowed since it is not shown in the detailed pictures for PROD removable braces. but then, i don't think these are braces since they are integral with the cage.

also, it would seem that since i am using part of the SCCA design criteria, it would be accepted
the Technical Staff of Club Racing may or may not accept alternate construction standards from any source that significantly vary from SCCA standards of protection.[/b]

i have made some modifications with the potential of PROD in mind but now am making plans for doing it this winter.

tom

[ddewhurst]

Jim, I am not saying that you can't weld the sleeves to gether. The thread communication is, are these sleeves which are bolted together (not welded) legal in a Production roll cage.


***the production rules states:

QUOTE
11. Safety
1. Roll Cages: A rollcage complying with GCR section 18 shall be installed.

so the literal translation of that is any rollcage of section 18 since it does not state that it must comply with the Production section of 18.6***

Tom, I'll not discuss the Production car roll cage rules any further with you because you are using zero common sense when reading the rules as shown by your comment above. BUT, you do belong in the Production world because you read the rules to fit your personal agenda. As suggested in an earler post keep working with Topeka.

Continue the Fun ;)
David

[tom91ita]

this back from Topeka:


Yes it can be welded together, although bolt in cages are permitted also.[/b]

i will print out the email thread and staple in my logbook and carry in my car.

regarding my "literal translation" of the rules, i was not trying to be serious as much as trying to extend your viewpoint that because in the general information regarding how welding was supposed to be done, it meant that everything after that had to be welded. i had a hard time with that logic because just after the "welding" section of the rules, the SS/IT bolt-in cages are illustrated.

BUT, your comment regarding my ability to use the rules to fit my personal agenda and that i belong in Production brought tears to my eyes.

that's about the nicest thing anyone ever said about me on the 'net. B)