SCCA VIN Requirements

[jsidhu]

Im looking at a 1990 240sx which is a theft recovered vehicle. Everything is fine except that the VIN plates from the dash and doors are missing. However, the VIN number is stamped into the sheetmetal in the engine bay.

I called DMV, and they said I can file paperwork with CHP (california highway patrol) and they will issue a new vin number for my vehicle.

Will SCCA honour the new Vin number? Should I go ahead and purchase this vehicle? Or should I skip it?

Thanks in advance..

-js

[johnny yanez]

i think for show room stock,, 2 vin numbers are required,,, but as long as you know that the car is legal and you plan to make a race car ,, i would not worry about it,,,, as long as you have a title for the car,, just get green tag for it,, for off road, but doubt it there are many cars on the track with green tags.

[dickita15]

Well that could be a problem. The GCR says you need two vin numbers and the number confirms you are using the right chassis for the spec line. Are you sure the car in question was not stamped anywhere else by the maker. Would the new vin number issued be a proper one for the car. Seem dumb there n\must be a way around it.

Hmm it says a minimum of two Vin plates and/or stampings is required. It does not actually say they have to be from the factory. Maybe you could stamp the number in the door casing yourself.

[jsidhu]

i think for show room stock,, 2 vin numbers are required,,, but as long as you know that the car is legal and you plan to make a race car ,, i would not worry about it,,,, as long as you have a title for the car,, just get green tag for it,, for off road, but doubt it there are many cars on the track with green tags.
[/b]

I am/would be building this for ITA. In the GCR, it states that the VIN must be posted at two places. This is what they use to classify the car. Now if the new VIN assigned by CHP doesnt qualify the car for ITA, then im screwed...

Anyone already gone thru with something like this??

-js

[lateapex911]

[you didn't hear this from me mode ON]

Get creative. You have the VIN stamped on the chassis, right? Now, what if you had swapped the dash....the VIN is also attached to that, right? Why not get creative with the computer and a sticker/label setup and make a new vin sticker, matching the VIN stamped on the chassis to go where the dash vin is?

[you didn't hear this from me mode OFF]

Agreed, dumb rule...we swap dashes and crap all the time.

[jsidhu]

[you didn't hear this from me mode ON]

Get creative. You have the VIN stamped on the chassis, right? Now, what if you had swapped the dash....the VIN is also attached to that, right? Why not get creative with the computer and a sticker/label setup and make a new vin sticker, matching the VIN stamped on the chassis to go where the dash vin is?

[you didn't hear this from me mode OFF]

Agreed, dumb rule...we swap dashes and crap all the time.
[/b]

I see what you're saying, but the problem is that I dont own this car yet. And to take ownership, I need to go thru DMV, who will require a vehicle inspection from CHP. To do that, I need to request new VIN numbers from CHP.. and with the new vin numbers, it might be a problem?

And wht sort of a VIN number stamp will SCCA accept? Can I write it on paper and paste it on the dash? How do you guys do it when you swap the dash? One is already stamped in the sheetmetal.. is that one acceptable?

Is there a number I can call for clarification??

-js

[Ron Earp]

Don't worry about the VIN number for the SCCA logbook inspection. It is a race car, your tech inspector will help you out there. Some VIN numbers, such as on my JH, are not even plates - just numbers stamped in the chassis on one place. Get the car and don't worry about the SCCA process, you'll be fine. People just want to make sure you aren't running a 4V motor (ITS) in a 3V class, ITA.

Why go through the DMV if you don't intend to license it? Use it as a salvage car, title shouldn't make any difference I wouldn't think. Wait, I just saw you are in the People's Republik of California, all bets are off!!!

Ron

[RSTPerformance]

Fellow competitor mode on-

If it were me I would get the car. Keep the original VIN number as the one to "classify the car" and have that registered into your cars logbook. If anyone makes a big deal about it let em complain and bitch... and walk the other way. If you get protested for it and are found illigal, then take the protestor, and the guys/gals that stuck that strict to the letter of the rule and beat them over the head with a NASA sticker or some other sticker from an organization with members in your area that are not that anal. Who really wants to race with people like that anyhow?

This sport is for fun, and as long as you have all the legal parts on the car that you can do something about knowone will probably care. We would rather see more cars than less cars, and if this means you can afford to race (or find a rare car) then I doubt anyone will actually follow through with anything.

Raymond "Just be sure to add the .001 lb of weight back into the dash and were cool" Blethen

Steward hat on... It is illigal, and you could be found illigal and DQ'd at every race you were protested, or tech may decide they don't want to issue you a logbook... but in reality someone will issue the logbook, and once the logbook is issued with one vin and that car I think it is a crime to tell you to go build a new car. I was involved with a protest at a National last year that involved a car with a VIN that lead us to believe it was a "preproduction" year. It was a mess, and I still would argue to this day that if all else is equal let em race... He was issued a logbook 2 years ago and raced the car, now all of a sudden you want to tell him to throgh the car away and biuild a new one? why wast 40K of someones money for somthing as irelivant as that?

[tdw6974]

Insurance hat on :D Call your friendly Nissan dealer and inquire there are serial Numbers stamped in several places on all cars they should be able to help. if they are not just tell them they lost a fortunure in parts sales. I see if I can find any other source. found one Firewall of the vehicle
Radiator Support Bracket
Dash by windshield
Left hand inner wheel arch
Steering column
Guarantee & Maintenance Book
Machined Pad on front of engine
Drivers door or post on passenger side
Component parts as listed above -e.g.- engine, frame, etc.
Later model years most common locations of the VIN:

Left instrumentation panel
Dash plate by window
Drivers door or post
Firewall
Hopefully you can inspect vehicle to check In fact maybe CHP or DMV can help. The GCR doesn't stae where the location must be

[Eric Parham]

ITCS 17.1.4.C: "The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)shall correspond with the
automobile classified,and will determine the model and type for
competition purposes. A minimum of two (2)VIN plates and/or stampings
is required."

I think that this ITCS rule means that the two VIN tags must match the model and type raced (IT specs model line), but it doesn't actually say that the two numbers have to be identical to each other! Thus, they could concievably be from 2 different same-model cars, maybe even 2 different model year cars, as long as the 2 are on the same ITCS spec line. That is, if you spliced 2 half-cars of the same model/type together, it would be okay that the two ends had 2 different VINs. Thus, if you've got one stamping, just add a dash with a VIN tag from a car that's on the same ITCS model line. :)

I have had cars from some states (NH comes to mind) that added "rebuilt" tags with numbers that were different than the original VIN number. The new number was completely different than the original VIN and did not even follow the VIN format. Such cars were supposed to be registered using the new number, IIRC, but they did not remove the original VINs.

I have also had to go through CT inspection for a non-salvage car that was missing only it's dash tag. I knew it had the correct partial stamping in the cowl, and the sticker on the door jamb matched. Thus, they issued a "public" VIN tag for the door jamb (which already had one there - silly) to replace the missing dash plate. The point is that the "public" tag issued in CT had the original VIN number on it! Thus, that car had two matching VIN stickers on the door jamb (one from the factory, one from the state). I think those two alone would be enough to meet the ITCS.

I wonder whether CA works like NH or like CT.

[Z3_GoCar]

I see what you're saying, but the problem is that I dont own this car yet. And to take ownership, I need to go thru DMV, who will require a vehicle inspection from CHP. To do that, I need to request new VIN numbers from CHP.. and with the new vin numbers, it might be a problem?

And wht sort of a VIN number stamp will SCCA accept? Can I write it on paper and paste it on the dash? How do you guys do it when you swap the dash? One is already stamped in the sheetmetal.. is that one acceptable?

Is there a number I can call for clarification??

-js
[/b]

Give them the money and take the car, it's that simple. A lot of race car's don't even have OHV titles or registration. My car was manufactured and sold without a title, with the caviot that it'd never be a street car. The only thing I have to prove ownership is a string of cancled checks which act as a gehto-reciepts. If the cops take the car from me from off the trailer, I'll get the checks and see them in court, most could care less. The 2.8l Z3's vin numbers start at 0100, mine is 0134.

James

[Greg Amy]

I do admit this is a true conflict between spirit and letter of the rules, and I can't really offer a good solution.

I make a point of comparing VINs to logbook when I do an annual inspection. There was one case last year where an ITA Integra had a problem with a VIN, and I made a point of going out of my way to get him through (the car already had a logbook). The dash plaque disagreed with the door VIN, and the firewall-stamped VIN appeared to possibly be a grey-market car. We were lucky: in the end it turned out that the VIN stamping on the firewall was obscured by body putty, but after some judicious scraping it matched the door and and all was well.

I've publicly stated here that should I find myself in a similar situation (wrecking an EXTREMELY hard-to-find hardtop Nissan NX) that I'd follow the spirit (but not the letter) by getting an easy-to-find hardtop NX1600 and swapping over NX2000 parts and VIN (smae chassis).

If I were faced with being in a position of having to issue a logbook to an IT car that had only one VIN, I'm not really sure what I would do. To the rules I cannot, but to the spirit I should... - GA

[dickita15]

ITCS 17.1.4.C: "The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)shall correspond with the
automobile classified,and will determine the model and type for
competition purposes. A minimum of two (2)VIN plates and/or stampings
is required."

I think that this ITCS rule means that the two VIN tags must match the model and type raced (IT specs model line), but it doesn't actually say that the two numbers have to be identical to each other! Thus, they could concievably be from 2 different same-model cars, maybe even 2 different model year cars, as long as the 2 are on the same ITCS spec line. That is, if you spliced 2 half-cars of the same model/type together, it would be okay that the two ends had 2 different VINs. Thus, if you've got one stamping, just add a dash with a VIN tag from a car that's on the same ITCS model line. :)

[/b]
Eric that is a great catch. As a tech inspector I do check Vin number when I issue a logbook or do an annual and I have had people change dash pads and door stickers often disappear doing bodywork. I have never hassled anyone over this but now I will sleep better. :023:

[85itccivic]

I had an interesting experience with this situation at the last Marrs race of the year. At impound the stewards were checking for matching serial numbers on all the cars. They could not find two matching numbers on my car and wanted to talk to me about it . I race and 85 ITC Civic . The log book serial number is on the fire wall. The dash is from a Civic Si because when I built the car years ago I wanted a black interior . The car has been completely rear clipped twice to repair accident damage. You can now see how they would have a problem finding matching serial numbers. In the end their was no penalties assessed but they did express their displeasure about the issue.

Roger

[planet6racing]

Get the car. There are (2) VIN tags on it. You've found one, just find another.

And, VIN tags are typically not attached to the dash. They are typically attached to the "frame rail" that supports the lower side of the windshield.

[wrankin]

And, VIN tags are typically not attached to the dash. They are typically attached to the "frame rail" that supports the lower side of the windshield.
[/b]

If only. The dash plate for a 2nd gen RX-7 is riveted to the plastic defroster grill, which cracks and breaks frequently. <_<

I guess the best practice in this case would be to lightly glue it to the dash for the inspection, and then remove it and keep in in the tool box so you don&#39;t lose it.

-b

[backformore]

I bought a race car that had a logbook note about not having two VIN plates. The owner had repainted the car and removed the sticker that was in the door. Fortunately, they were able to find the sticker and reinstall it before I bought the car. When I had the annual done, the inspector saw the note, looked that the door sticker matched the stamped number on the firewall and all was OK.

My point, if I have one, is that people do check it so you need to be prepared to address the question. The rule however is pretty vague in that it simply states that you have to have two plates and does not mention any validity requirements for the plates. I would think that if one of the numbers is stamped into the car (like mine) you could probably create your own second plate and nobody would know better.

The other interesting note: I was checked for 2 VINs but nobody checked to see if the 2 VINs represented a chassis legal for my class. Has anyone been checked for that?

[Fastfred92]

All cars made after the 70&#39;s ( maybe ) have atleast 1 hidden VIN stamped in the chassis somewhere. Your local DMV guy may point you in the right direction but with that you will have your 2 matching VIN&#39;s. The hidden VIN is often on the inside of the frame rail under the firewall... YMMV

[lateapex911]

Interesting. I own a car that I considered racing...a 1972 Porsche 911, classified in ITS. It has 1 VIN stamping that I have been able to find. One. That&#39;s the way it was made. Maybe theres another but I&#39;ve bever come across it, and I did a strip to the tub restoration on it.

So, if it really did come with one only from the factory, we have a conflict between the written rule and reality.

An option if you need an end around run is to register it out of state, and tiltle it in that manner. There are states that don&#39;t require you to live there to register a car, such as Maine. If the car won&#39;t be street driven often, then the CHP won&#39;t be hassling you for out of state plates.

I have to think you could also create a tag that attaches to the dash or A pillar to replicate the known good vin, if you need to get it teched, Just make sure the main stamped number is clean and doesn&#39;t have the appearance of being altered.

[jsidhu]

So I was at Lugna Seca over the weekend and talked to the Techies (bob corbett? and Dick renolds?) regarding this little problem.

I was told to stay away from this car since I can get into trouble in the future. The vin numbers do have to match. So I cant pull a dash fro another 240 and use that in my car. There is no gurantee that the new VIN numbers assigned by CHP will reference my car and model and the year manufactured.

So they said it would not be a good idea to develop this car for IT.

Anyways, I took a lot of pictures, you guys should check it out if you have some time.

http://jsidhu.net/scca/

BTW, who owns the Blue Integra (#52) in ITA? That car is fast, id be interested in knowing more about this little racecar.

Thanks for all the feedback and ideas with this VIN problem. I&#39;ve decided to go against it.

-js

[flaboy]

I have had some problems with my VIN numbers...they don&#39;t match.
I bought the car last year after it was sitting in a garage for over 2 years.It has had an annual tech done every year since built and noone has ever caught this until i bought it.
Talked to the original owner about it and said he replaced the dash in it about a year after it was built and never thought about keeping the VIN.

Now it is noteed in the log book of only 1 VIN# and the one on the door frame is the correct one.

[dickita15]

is there not one on the firewall?

[flaboy]

When i had the motor out last month i looked everywhere on the fire wall and no vin# not all vw had 3 vins...some where on the fire wall and some where even on the inside rear quarter panels if they had 3 locations.

[Bill Miller]

When i had the motor out last month i looked everywhere on the fire wall and no vin# not all vw had 3 vins...some where on the fire wall and some where even on the inside rear quarter panels if they had 3 locations.
[/b]

Prior to 1981, when the standard format VIN# was adopted, water-cooled VWs (at least those sold in the US), had a VIN# stamped on the p/s top of the strut tower. After that, they moved the stamping to the top center of the &#39;rain tray&#39;. This was in addition to the dash plaque and the d/s B-pillar sticker.