Keep Old Seat or Get Another?

[tom_sprecher]

The wreck (actually my body) bent the mounts and the frame of the seat. The mounts can be replaced and the frame maybe straightened. I was thinking about replacing or upgrading especially since my body really slid sideways and dented the inside of the door with my shoulder.

"Road Race" seats do not seem to have a lot of lateral support when compared to oval track seats. I have seen both used and was curious as to what you guys thought of each design and what your experiences have been.

TIA

[Knestis]

I'm a huge believer in the seat being the most important piece of safety equipment we have - both in terms of it's active support during an incident, and its passive influence on car control to avoid issues in the first place. I went whole-hog and bought a RECARO Racer SPG with the head restraint ears. If you don't think something like this has a "lot of support," you haven't sat in it. :P

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/mk3.2/interior.JPG

When I rolled at Rally TN, it was almost a comfortable ride - way easier on the bod' than most amusement park rides. I could vividly feel my noggin bouncing back and forth between the head bolsters, and the seat flexing around me, soaking up energy.

If you bent the seat, it's a tubular design - which I would personally run away from with all haste...

K

[JLawton]

I had an "oval" seat in my last car. My current one is the same as Kirk's and I agree with his statements. I will NEVER put anything else in my race cars. Night and day difference.

Now, if you're not very limber or have a "few" extra pounds you may have a little trouble getting in and out!! :P

[JimLill]

I had an "oval" seat in my last car. My current one is the same as Kirk's and I agree with his statements. I will NEVER put anything else in my race cars. Night and day difference.

Now, if you're not very limber or have a "few" extra pounds you may have a little trouble getting in and out!! :P
[/b]

My car came with a Kirkey "oval" seat, I hated it... switched to a Sparco Evo-L and love it.

[lateapex911]

Ditto. First budget priority should be good safety items. Then upgrade the brakes, then the handling....and so on.

[Greg Amy]

New seat, Chief.

Momo sells an FIA-approved seat, the Start, for a great price, at LTBMotorsport.com.

[85itccivic]

I personally run a Kirkey " oval track seat " and love the thing. I have customized the foam in the insert for it to be more comfortable . I sits in a custom made perimeter mount and is very strong. On the other hand one of my customers has a Sparco seat in her car that she loves and she hates my seat. The reason is my seat does not fit her body . The best advice I can give is to find a place that sells an assortment of seats and sit in them . Find a quality seat that gives you the fit and feel you want . Then , unless you let other people drive your, car mount it in a fixed position that puts you in the best position to drive your car.
Roger

[tom_sprecher]

Thanks for all the replies. That seat pictured has much more lateral support than my Corbeau, no doubt. Need to cover those E-switch terminals though. When I got my annual the tech told me it's a new rule?

Do you guys use a fixed mount or an adjustable rack? I may in the future run enduros with another driver (who better have a big deposit), but maybe I'll worry about an adjustable mount at that time.

The Momo START looks nice and at that price, but I think I want more support. I'll keep looking but any suggestions will be greatly appreciated as I need to start fabbibg up some mounts.

Speaking of which I understand we can not tie into the roll cage with the seat mounts, right?

[gsbaker]

Ditto. First budget priority should be good safety items. Then upgrade the brakes...[/b]Geez Jake, if you get those brakes fixed you wouldn't have so many safety problems. :D

[gsbaker]

I really hate suggesting that people delay the purchase of any safety equipment, but if you don't need a new seat before next season you might want to wait because there may be an effort to develop a new standard. I doubt any new standard would be implimented before 2008 due to the timing, however.

Just a thought...

[Tom Donnelly]

I agree with Kirk on this. If you bent it in a wreck, take it out and watch TV in it.
That's what I used my old bent seat for. Its really kinda comfortable.

Tom

[Knestis]

...there may be an effort to develop a new standard. I doubt any new standard would be implimented before 2008 due to the timing, however.[/b]

Oh, freakin' goody. I can't wait to hear more about this.

K

[gsbaker]

Oh, freakin' goody. I can't wait to hear more about this.

K
[/b]Go here (http://www.sfifoundation.com/) and click on the left-side link labeled "Meeting Schedule". Then note the specs 39.1 and 39.2.

Yes, these are, apparently, proposed specs for stocks car seats, but these things tend to dribble over to road racing in due time. One would have to seriously doubt that the SCCA would adopt anything anytime soon, but the lateral impact issue keeps raising its ugly head.

(Yeah, I saw 38.2, but let's not get OT.)

[charrbq]

Is it my understanding that an FIA listed seat doesn't have to have a back support affixed to the cage?

[Knestis]

SFI pisses me off. It has since I first had dealings with them in the early '80s. It must be my Libertarian streak. Or maybe the inherent conflicts of interest involved in everything it does.

K

[Z3_GoCar]

Exactly,

FIA certified seats, Corbeau or my favorite Recaro, made of FRP will be allowed no matter what.

OT, spec 47.3 B)

James

[Greg Amy]

Is it my understanding that an FIA listed seat doesn't have to have a back support affixed to the cage?
[/b]

Correct, if certified to FIA 8855-1999. Note the year; some older seats are 1992.

There's also debate as to whether the manufacturer date must be 5 years or newer. To meet the FIA specs it must; the question comes in whether SCCA is enforcing that or not (as of right now, it seems "not").



SFI pisses me off.[/b]

Ditto.

[charrbq]

Greg,
Sorry, in answering my question, you created another. If the FIA date is within five years of, say, 2006, then it's okay to use, or, do I have to replace my seat every 5 years? Sorry to be be so stupid, but some would say it comes naturally.

[Greg Amy]

If you're bored, here's some bed time reading:

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/895...tition_seat.pdf (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/895276808__8855_1999_Competition_seat.pdf)

"The usable life of an FIA homologated seat will be 5 years from the date of manufacture indicated on the seat label."

GCR 18.1.2 only requires that the seat be "homologated to...FIA standard 8855-1999". If you want to get picky, a seat does not lose its "homologation" after five years, it simply exceeds its "useful life" and is no longer suitable for FIA competition.

If SCCA were to decide to enforce the FIA requirement (they don't, and don't on SFI-dated items such as window nets), then if your seat were manufactured in July 2002 it would automatically expire effective August 2007. At that point you'd either need to replace it or add a seat back brace.

But again, it's not enforced by SCCA. As a tech inspector, I've been told to simply verify it has the FIA 8855-1999 label. - GA

[charrbq]

Thanks. As with many things, what makes sense, in reality, makes no sense. One way or another, the cheap seat I've got came with the car and needs to be replaced. I've never liked it, but I wasn't certain what would be a good replacement that I could afford. At least I've been headed on the right path with seats and seat belts. Must be about time for the SCCA to change the rules...after I spend a bunch of money!

[lateapex911]

Yes, but WHY does an FIA seat lose it's certification after 5 years in FIA competition???

Is it because the compounds used to make it age into a failure mode? I doubt it.

Is it because the FIA feels that 5 years is enough time for the condition to degrade due to the ravages of time and wether and use have rendered it unsafe?? I doubt it...

Or is it a business issue?

[charrbq]

My mony says business. Does Bernie Ecclestone have a piece of the action?

[JIgou]

OK, let me throw this out in the seat discussion and gather some thoughts. (Y'all can tell me we're nuts if you want....)

A local racer and I have had this conversation over beer a couple of times. He used to race formula cars, so he's kinda into this concept.

What if one were to buy a basic Kirkey (or other similar simple aluminum shell seat) in a two-sizes-too-big-for-the-driver size, then do a true, full-on bead seat insert in that aluminum shell.

As I see it:

Advantages:
* Shock absorbing (if using the correct beads)
* Custom, exact fit
* Can swap inserts for co-drivers, giving both excellent fit

Disadvantages:
* Not FIA, so would need back <strike>breaker</strike> brace
* Not much cheaper than, say, a Momo Start
* Not the cleanest thing in the world to create
* Lack of shoulder support, depending on the model

Any other thoughts or concerns?

Jarrod

[lateapex911]

It&#39;s a cool idea. I had thought about mentioning a similar concept up the thread, but instead of the kirky, I was going to suggest that for teh enduro minded, they get the Recaro as Kirk has, and have the inserts made to fit the smaller drivers.

[tom_sprecher]

I came from Formula beginnings and like the concept. Some guys use bead seats (if there is no easy way to "panel" the inside of the frame) and others use foam over aluminum panels that form a simple seat.

Bead seats are kinda messy, ugly and don&#39;t hold up well but if done right you can not move.

Kirkey&#39;s can be had that have more support wing thingies (industry term) that you can imagine (at a price). That Recaro looks pretty sweet though.

What about how to mount, either fixed or adjustable? Mine was adjustable but at 6&#39;2" it was all the way back to the main hoop. The seat racks did not hold up at all, they&#39;re trashed.

Thanks,

[Knestis]

If you&#39;ve got a driver who&#39;s too small for the Recaro I have, he (or she?) is also going to need blocks taped to the pedals... :)

We used to do urethane foam seats in the formula cars and sports racers, back in my formative years, using garbage bags and stuff from a marine supply place. They worked great, if you could come up with a way to cover them. Using an aluminum seat wouldn&#39;t be an awful way to box in the foam.

However, part of the reason that the FIA answer works is that the seat is NOT rigid. When I rolled the Golf, I could FEEL the seat moving around - and a Recaro bucket is a stiff MF.

K

[ddewhurst]

***What if one were to buy a basic Kirkey (or other similar simple aluminum shell seat) in a two-sizes-too-big-for-the-driver size, then do a true, full-on bead seat insert in that aluminum shell.

Any other thoughts or concerns?

Disadvantages:***

The two sizes larger seat wouldn&#39;t fit in your Spec Miata............. :o :unsure:

Sorry Jarrod, I had to do it. ;)
David

[Daryl DeArman]

I just replaced my seat in my formula car with a Pennon bead seat. For open wheelers a Pennon or BaldSpot type seat is the best there is. Neither is a messy proposition. The expanding foam two part foams are another story in both mess and safety.

In a production type car where you have the room to allow for a seat design that will absorb impact over a larger distance, it has got to be a good thing provided that larger distance doesn&#39;t allow contact with something. In a formula car you simply don&#39;t have the room to allow for a seat to flex or deform much.

[JIgou]

***What if one were to buy a basic Kirkey (or other similar simple aluminum shell seat) in a two-sizes-too-big-for-the-driver size, then do a true, full-on bead seat insert in that aluminum shell.

Any other thoughts or concerns?

Disadvantages:***

The two sizes larger seat wouldn&#39;t fit in your Spec Miata............. :o :unsure:

Sorry Jarrod, I had to do it. ;)
David
[/b]

Details such as these are ignored at the moment. :D We&#39;re in the conceptual phase only....

One of the issues that has come to my mind has been mentioned by both Daryl and Kirk - the fact that a true FIA seat can move and flex in an accident. The CORRECT type of bead seat (as opposed to simply carving the expanding foam you buy at Home Depot) gives a ton of support, but does compress and cushion in the event of an accident. But I can&#39;t imagine it will "give" as much as a carbon or fiberglass FIA shell.

So.

I&#39;m starting to think that, even in the relatively cramped quarters of a Miata, an FIA seat may be the wiser choice. The implementation is certainly more straightforward.

Provided, of course, it fits - right David?

Jarrod

[Greg Amy]

Miata? Oh, hell, that makes the decision even easier.

I installed a Momo Start in my SM, and a few others I helped build. The width of the Miata factory sliders is EXACTLY the same as the width of the fastener inserts in the Start. What this mean is that you can remove the sliders from your factory seat, simply BOLT THEM ON to the Start, and bolt the seat into the car.

I tried this in a &#39;90, &#39;91, and &#39;94, and they all fit.

Because I&#39;m 6&#39;1", one modification I did was remove the rear pads from the floorboard, bend the rear slider mount tab slightly, and bolt the rear slider mounts through the floor using some steel backup pads. That way I got about 2" more headroom and a little more tilt-back. With the Kessler cage (http://www.kakashiracing.com/forsale/sm.html) even a big guy like me fit perfectly fine...

FIA homologated, bolt-in installation, $275 shipped from LTBMotorsports (http://www.ltbmotorsport.com/start.html); it just don&#39;t get any easier than that! - GA

[jlinfert]

New seat, Chief.

Momo sells an FIA-approved seat, the Start, for a great price, at LTBMotorsport.com.
[/b]

I&#39;m in total agreement here Great Seat! Very Comfortable. ANd Louis at LTB does Have a KILLER price.

[tom_sprecher]

Here&#39;s what I have seen so far.

The Recaro is a beauty with lots of lateral support but at almost $1500 is too rich for my wallet.

The Momo START is FIA, light and at $275 is a bargin, but judging solely by the pictures appears to have no more lateral support than my old Corbeau.

Then there&#39;s the Ultra-Shield Deluxe Road Race Seat (http://www.discoveryparts.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=seats_ultrashield) or the Ultra-Shield Lightweight Road Race Seat with Halo for another $158. The bonus on this seat is I can get it local and hope to be able to actually sit in one and can get either one at a considerable discount from Discovery Parts.

I also saw the Cobra Evolution in the recent SportsCar and actually it looks more like the Recaro in the above picture than the same on any website. I guess Recaro changed the design of the SPG. Unfortunately, the Cobra is out of my price range as well.

I&#39;m still looking, really appreciate all of your help and hope to see some of you at the ARRC. Maybe I can sit in some seats and see what they&#39;re like.

Thanks,

[Greg Amy]

Tom, come find us. My NX has a Start, Jeff&#39;s SatURN has a really nice Recaro Racer SP-G, and Joe&#39;s got something different as well. Between all the NE guys you should be able to get a good flavor or options and some good butt-testing. - GA

[JLawton]

The Recaro is a beauty with lots of lateral support but at almost $1500 is too rich for my wallet.

[/b]

Agreed. I don&#39;t have the cash to buy one either but fortunately it came with the car. If I ever sell the car, I&#39;m taking the Recaro out to keep and putting in a cheap one!!

As Greg said, feel free to stop buy. But I hope you don&#39;t have a problem finding me with all the Saturn&#39;s that are going to be there!!