Interior removal questions

[JoshS]

Based on my reading of the rules, I can remove absolutely no wiring from the interior of the car. It also appears that I cannot remove stereo speakers and amps.

I assume that I can remove components that were mounted in my center console, such as the climate control adjuster knobs. But I cannot remove the bulk of the climate control system from under the dash, such as the fan, heater core, duct work, etc. I also cannot remove any steel brackets from under there. I think I can remove the glove box, which was mounted to the main part of the dashboard.

Are these interpretations consistent with the generally accepted practice in IT cars today?

[Andy Bettencourt]

My take: YMMV.


Based on my reading of the rules, I can remove absolutely no wiring from the interior of the car. [/b]

Correct.


It also appears that I cannot remove stereo speakers and amps.[/b]

Correct. That is the way the rule reads. You won't find many on grid as many people just take out the whole 'radio system' as a whole. This may be a decent area for a clarification in the rules for 2007.


I assume that I can remove components that were mounted in my center console, such as the climate control adjuster knobs. [/b]

I need to understand your question better. You can remove the center console in whole, so why are you asking about the adjuster knobs? I don't consider adjuster knobs to be 'operating mechanisms'...nothing "operates" the center console...but that would be moot anyway if you just removed the whole console as you are allowed. I think if you leave it in, the 'stuff' has to stay.


But I cannot remove the bulk of the climate control system from under the dash, such as the fan, heater core, duct work, etc. I also cannot remove any steel brackets from under there. [/b]

I agree.


I think I can remove the glove box, which was mounted to the main part of the dashboard.[/b]

I disagree. Unless your cage requires the removal of the glovebox, I think it stays. I do not consider it a 'removable cover' or anything else specifically allowed to be removed.


Are these interpretations consistent with the generally accepted practice in IT cars today? [/b]

Sometimes generally accepted practices are dangerous... :) Understand that I read the rules in a more conservative manner than some.

[JoshS]

I disagree. Unless your cage requires the removal of the glovebox, I think it stays. I do not consider it a 'removable cover' or anything else specifically allowed to be removed.
[/b]

Well, in this car, there is a lower cover under the dash on the passenger side, and this cover "contains" the glove box. It actually all comes out in one piece -- it's one part number from BMW.

Maybe this page (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=CK53&mospid=48086&btnr=51_2364&hg=51&fg=30) will illustrate it better. I'm thinking I can remove everything in the diagram.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/x/m/58.png

Here's what the dash looks like without the cover/glove box in place:

http://members.roadfly.com/jsirota/Z3Coupe/gutted2.JPG

[Z3_GoCar]

Josh,

I left the center console in because it's the only element that provides suport for the middle of the dash. Otherwise, the middle of the dash will sag down. I also like having the parking brake lever installed so that I can use the parking brake to secure the car on the trailer in addition to the tie down straps. I'm just carefull not to engage it after comming in from the track when the brakes are hot to keep the rear rotors from warpping. You could have the seat heating elements installed in the cover to your racing seat, imagine a race car with heated seats :P

James

[JoshS]

I left the center console in because it's the only element that provides suport for the middle of the dash. Otherwise, the middle of the dash will sag down. I also like having the parking brake lever installed so that I can use the parking brake to secure the car on the trailer in addition to the tie down straps.
[/b]

Hi James,

Does your car still have the big lateral round steel bar that the main dash sits on? I suspect something is missing from your car that allows the dash to sag -- and it's not the center console. There is absolutely no way that removing the center console, but leaving everything else stock, can allow the dash to sag.

Contact me privately if you want to discuss further. But if your dash sags without the center console, then there are surely more things missing from your car than the engine wiring harness.

Check out this diagram (http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=CK53&mospid=48086&btnr=51_4019&hg=51&fg=30), part #3. Andy, I'm thinking it's the stuff in this diagram that I have to leave intact.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/z/e/76.png

As for the parking brake, I'm leaving that in, for the same reasons as you. It can also be handy when paddock areas aren't 100% flat.

[gran racing]

The glove box is a bit of a grey area thing. My previous Prelude did not have the glove box (although I did buy a junk yard one to instal). According to the Honda shop manual, it stated that the glove box was not part of the dash and if I had ordered a dash from Honda, the glove box would not be included. That said, with my new car I'm building now, the glove box is staying. One is that I don't want to play around with the gray area, but the other reason is how useful it is! The video camera can be kept there (I use a remote lipstick camera), the fuel test port, and other goodies.

[MMiskoe]

Considering the thread has been started & I've been wondering myself:

If you are removing power windows to install nascar bars, how far back can you take the wiring for said windows?

Same for power door locks? The interior handle will go, can the wiring be removed all the way back or does it have to stay because the exterior handle remains un-changed?

Power mirrors? Wiring back to the point it doesnt share with anything else?

FWIW, if the "A/C System" can be removed in its "entirety", wouldn't that mean that anything involved in the use of AC can go - ducts, controls, wiring etc, even if they do serve other portions of the heat system?

Matt

[Z3_GoCar]

Josh,

You have to remember that when my car was started there wasn't an IT class for it. It was started as a backup chassis for Grand Am cup where TC Kline campaigned the sister cars. So it's definetly started out a little more modified than an IT car should be. The reason the dash support was removed was that the cage front supports follow the inner window frame structure to the top of the dash then drop down to the floor right where the dash support would be. The cage is a work of art as McMahan did an excellent job with it. Are you having Tony at TC Designs do your cage? If you're going to cut the dash and run the front down tube through, I think you'll find the same conflict. Also, as there's not much room for spare gauges and I don't have the the center vents I put in a gauge panel with my oil pressure and water temp so I can glance and see if the pressure and temp are good without having to look farther down. If someone wants to get nick-pickey with my car, then sure protest away, they'd just be showing what kind of jerk they'd be. Who's to say what my car came with originally, it's the 34th 2.8l to come off the line, and as an early preproduction modle maybe some stuff was left off :D

James

[lateapex911]

FWIW, if the "A/C System" can be removed in its "entirety", wouldn't that mean that anything involved in the use of AC can go - ducts, controls, wiring etc, even if they do serve other portions of the heat system?

Matt
[/b]
No.

In most cars, there is an HVAC system. Heating, Venting and Air Conditioning system.

Within that sytem, certain components provide services to one aspect of the system, such as heating, or air conditioning, and other components provide services to all functions of the system. Ducts that blow air are used by all components and must stay. Air conditioning compressors are specific to only the air condioning aspect of the system and may be removed. IF a car has a system, (as some very old cars do) that has a parallel setup, (where the AC ducts are used only for AC..these were often tacked on by the dealer), than those ducts associated with only the AC function could be removed legally.

Boxes that route air under the dash, can not be removed, as thay are part of the heating aspect of the system.

Thats the way it looks to me at least.

[JoshS]

The reason the dash support was removed was that the cage front supports follow the inner window frame structure to the top of the dash then drop down to the floor right where the dash support would be.
[/b]
Of course, but the rules don't really allow for that. In my other Showroom Stock and Touring cars, I've managed to do through-the-dash cages without removing that bar. We'll see if we can do that in the Z3 soon.

[Z3_GoCar]

Of course, but the rules don't really allow for that. In my other Showroom Stock and Touring cars, I've managed to do through-the-dash cages without removing that bar. We'll see if we can do that in the Z3 soon.
[/b]

9 c) ....Other than modifications made for mounting instruments and provide for roll cage installation....

Sounds like it allows it to me.

James

[JoshS]

If you are removing power windows to install nascar bars, how far back can you take the wiring for said windows?

Same for power door locks? The interior handle will go, can the wiring be removed all the way back or does it have to stay because the exterior handle remains un-changed?

Power mirrors? Wiring back to the point it doesnt share with anything else?
[/b]

I don't see any allowance that would allow you to remove any of that wiring. I think it's only door structure and window mechanisms that can be modified. Quoting the book:

"The door window glass, window operating mechanism, and inside door latch/lock operating mechanism may be removed and the inner door structural panel may be modified, but not removed. The stock side impact beam, if equipped, and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified. This gutting of the door shall only be made if roll cage incorporates NASCAR-style side protection extending into the door."

[charrbq]

Your best bet is to buy, read, and apply the rules pertaining to IT that are found in the GCR. If there are any questions you might have, you can always contact the Technical department for an opinion. That might not win you a protest, but it can't hurt, and they are more informed than most of us on rules (by necessity).
Many of the opinions on the rules of car preparation found on this forum are not necessarily correct...regardless of who gives them or what position they might hold in club racing.

[shwah]

You can in some cases remove wiring. For instance some of our older cars were delivered with and without power windows, thus you could certainly remove the window regulators and associated wiring IF it was absent from the crank window car.

Some cars were also delivered with optional stereo systems. You can remove all the speakers in that case as well.

All of this only applies if a car that fits on your spec line was available in the condition that you end up with on your car, which of course probably does not allow anything different that what has been said here regarding the BMW, but would apply to lots of A2 VWs.

[AntonioGG]

For the guys asking about the radio "system", look up the definition of system in the GCR glossary.
IMHO, speaker and antenna wires can be removed per the GCR. Those wires serve no other function. Anyone protesting removal of those wires would be filing a weenie protest. The weight is negligible and it mostly serves to clean up the interior of the car, and makes troubleshooting much easier.

Power window and power door lock wires cannot be removed I think. First because you're not told you can remove them, it doesn't say you can remove that system, and cars without those options still came with the same harness.

[x-ring]

For the guys asking about the radio "system", look up the definition of system in the GCR glossary.[/b]

The GCR definition of system, in this case, is not relevent. Our rules allow us to remove the radio receiver, not the radio system.



IMHO, speaker and antenna wires can be removed per the GCR. [/b]

IMHO, they can't. See above.



Anyone protesting removal of those wires would be filing a weenie protest.[/b]

THAT, I'll agree with.

[AntonioGG]

Oops, sorry about that. I thought SM and IT were the same...who would have thought IT is more restrictive than a SS based class?

[x-ring]

Oops, sorry about that. I thought SM and IT were the same...who would have thought IT is more restrictive than a SS based class?
[/b]

On the subject, I was chatting with Brian Culbertson late one night last week in front of Tech-Majal at HPT and mentioned the radio receiver thing; he encouraged me to send a letter and said that it would probably be looked upon favorably.

[shwah]

Power window and power door lock wires cannot be removed I think. First because you're not told you can remove them, it doesn't say you can remove that system, and cars without those options still came with the same harness.
[/b]

Maybe your car came that way. Crank window VWs do not have the wiring associated with the power windows. Manual lock VWs do not have the vacuum pump, actuator and lines of the power lock system. I am sure there are a number of other cars that are the same way. What you say is correct if all cars have the wiring regardless of options, but if they don't then pull that junk out.

[Z3_GoCar]

Here's a question:

Where in the IT GCR's does it allow the removal of the stock seat belt mechanism, but show me one IT car that still has it in it??

Also, what if a speaker is mounted in the door panel. Every car came with this speaker, a tweeter actually, mounted in the door panel. Can you remove the door panel? If you can't remove the door panel, then you can't install the door bars, but if you do remove the door panel then you remove a speaker that's not allowed to be removed. Pyromatic seat belt tensioners aren't listed as being removable. You must change the seat, but if the car came standard with seat heaters, must one find a a racing seat that has the seat heaters installed? How about external amplifiers? how about CD-disk changers? BTW, thanks Kirk for writing in a requesting the removal of eletric door locks.

James
:dead_horse:

[JoshS]

Where in the IT GCR's does it allow the removal of the stock seat belt mechanism, but show me one IT car that still has it in it??[/b]
ITCS-12, section 8.e:
"Front passenger seat, rear seat back, rear seat bottom cushion(s), sun visors, seat belts and their attaching hardware and bracketry may be removed."

[Z3_GoCar]

Josh,

That's funny, I saw that rule, but didn't see the seat belts part :rolleyes:

James

[Greg Amy]

Don't just "see" the rules, Grasshopper: READ them.

Even I am guilty of assumptions that aren't there...

[Z3_GoCar]

Ah, yes Sensei. Even Master's can make mistakes, and that's why there is an appeals process. To error, is human, forgive, devine :D

James

[Andy Bettencourt]

Yes, young Spurling, you have seen the light. But remember that Master Greg sees not the RULES, he sees the OPPORTUNITY.

:D

[raffaelli]

GCR Definitions:
"Instrument Panel - A panel, the associated mounting bracket(s), and HVAC ducting components, located within the cockpit of a car, and in a position convenient for driver visibility, which may provide a mounting area for various gauges and controls. Also referred to as a dash pad or dash panel."

Glove box is not used to mount guages and controls.


"9g. Any removable covers used to cover spare tires, tools, bins, etc., may be removed along with attaching hardware and bracketry. Carpets, mats, and their insulating or attaching materials may be removed from the floor and recesses of the cargo/ trunk/spare tire area."


Allows me to remove the glove box? (refering to bin and associated hardware)

[dj10]

Allows me to remove the glove box? (refering to bin and associated hardware)
[/b]



Isn't the glove box part of the dash board? If so it should not be removed correct?

[JoshS]

Isn't the glove box part of the dash board? If so it should not be removed correct?
[/b]
I think that depends very much on the car. On some cars (like mine), there is a lower plastic cover underneath the main dashboard ... it's just above the passenger's feet. The glove box is really part of this cover, not part of the main dash panel in any way.

[raffaelli]

The GCR definition of the dash regards instruments and gauges. That definition would exclude the glove box from being considered the dash. ( I think).

[Andy Bettencourt]

Using the words in that rules that you quote I would think the following:

I don't see how you can remove the GB (unless your cage install prevents it's reinstallation). If it's a 'bin' with a cover, you can remove the cover per the rule but not the bin. Where does it say you can remove any dash bin? If it's all one piece, it has no cover - so can you even touch it?

[raffaelli]

Using the words in that rules that you quote I would think the following:

I don't see how you can remove the GB (unless your cage install prevents it's reinstallation). If it's a 'bin' with a cover, you can remove the cover per the rule but not the bin. Where does it say you can remove any dash bin? If it's all one piece, it has no cover - so can you even touch it?
[/b]


Beats me. Who can I ask?

[Andy Bettencourt]

These questions were for you. I don't think you can touch it for the reasons I gave. What rule allows you to remove the 'bin' that is the GB? At the most, you can remove it's door - or 'cover'. If it's all one piece, that allowance doesn't apply.

[ddewhurst]

***If it's a 'bin' with a cover, you can remove the cover per the rule but not the bin.***

EVERYONE removes the bins behind the front seats in a 1st gen RX-7.

Did your 2nd gen RX-7 have bins behind the front seats?

Have Fun ;)
David

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dave,

We are talking about how that rules applies to the dash specifically. Interior removal is discussed in section F. of the rules. As you know, the rear bins in an RX-7 are not attatched to anything once the carpeting is gone.

YMMV.

[JoshS]

Andy, ignoring the glove box, do you think it's legal to remove a panel that separates the passenger footwell from the wiring and other stuff that's under the dash or behind the center console?

Now, what if the glovebox mounts to that panel?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I would have to see it to give my opinion. I am firm believer in the 'if you think it's grey, leave it in' thought process. Unless you are scraping for every ounce, it just doesn't make sense to 'get grey'.

[raffaelli]

I would have to see it to give my opinion. I am firm believer in the 'if you think it's grey, leave it in' thought process. Unless you are scraping for every ounce, it just doesn't make sense to 'get grey'.
[/b]


I agree. It is best to stay out the grey area. I am not sure that I agree with your interpretation of the glove box, but grey nonetheless. It will stay in my car.

I am trying to hook up with a local Scrutinier regarding this and some other interior removal questions to bounce them of him.

Speaker? Speaker wire? Seems silly to me to have to leave this stuff in. I am going to gut the driver door fo the nascar bars......the speaker needs to go. I have to leave the wire there? The rear moldings are removed...they house the speakers. Has to stay? I suppose if I run light on wieght I can put a subwoofer the in the rear so I can listen to some tunes while lapping :happy204: LOL

Regardless, having fun working on this car...... :eclipsee_steering:

[ddewhurst]

***As you know, the rear bins in an RX-7 are not attatched to anything once the carpeting is gone.***

Andy, I had typed more within this post on this subject of bins but have deleated it because we will continue to agree to disagree. IIRC the bins & carpet in the area of the bins are attached to bolted in formed sheet metal. My last point is that if someone can't find a rule, removal of the bins & the formed sheet metal behind the front seats on a 1st gen is illegal.

Have Fun ;)
David

[lateapex911]

Gotta disagree David, the rules F & G cover those.

I won't quote the entire rules but the bins/covers fall under the phrases like (G, page 304 of your 2007 GCR, ITCS section) "..... covers used to cover spare tires, tools, bins...may be removed.....along with ....attaching... bracketry ...." And, "Carpets, matts, and thier attaching...may be removed from the floor and recesses of the cargo area...."


Now, the bins are located in the cargo area, correct? (Area aft of the seats used to carry cargo, not people)
The bin covers come off as part of the first half of the rule.
The bin bottoms are made of carpet, so they come off under the second.

I'd love to get protested for THAT one, LOL. Mr tech inspector Greg, how do you think the average tech guy would rule...or how would you rule?

[Rabbit07]

ITCS-12, section 8.e:
"Front passenger seat, rear seat back, rear seat bottom cushion(s), sun visors, seat belts and their attaching hardware and bracketry may be removed."
[/b]


Define Bracketry? Does the weld nut on the floor count as attaching hardware?....... :dead_horse:

[ddewhurst]

Jake, rule discussion is Fun as long as those involved DON’T use their selective response tools. I had asked you in a post within another thread relative to what your ITAC friend used to adjust the rear camber of his 2nd gen RX-7 & you DIDN’T respond. Please play nice & answer that question first………………

Second, within our most current rule discussion I need to DISAGREE with your understanding of 2007 rules GCR-304 item f. & g.

***Now, the bins are located in the cargo area, correct?***

What you call bins is officially called “storage box” by Mazda micro-fish.

I would call the area FORWARD of the leading edge of the flat floor under the hatch area the passenger area including any lighted, latched hinged door “storage box” that is normally used by a passenger/driver from the passenger/driver area.

***The bin bottoms are made of carpet, so they come off under the second.*** (second half of the rule)

g. Any removable covers used to cover spare tires, tools, bins. ect. may be removed along with attaching hardware and bracketry. Carpets, mats, and their insulating or attaching materials may be removed from the floor and recesses of the cargo/ trunk/ spare tire area.

The bin/ "storage box" bottoms are NOT made of carpet. The bin bottoms are made as an inclusive part of the “storage box” separate of the carpet. The “storage box” has it’s own individual part number.

***The bin covers come off as part of the first half of the rule.***

f. below would be the first half of the rule correct.

f. Carpets, center counsels, floor mats, headliners, sun roof liner and frame, dome lights, grab handles, and their insulating, attaching or operating mechanisms may be removed.

So far the rule ^ says NOTHING about “storage box” covers or “storage box”.

f. All other interior trim panels, except the dashboard, may be removed.

Still the rule ^ says NOTHING about “storage box” covers or “storage box”.

f. Other than to provide for installation of required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, NO other driver/passenger compartment alterations or gutting are permitted.

I added the third part of rule ^ f. and there is sill nothing specified about a “storage box” covers or a “storage box”.

Now I need to complete this illegal “storage box cover/ “storage box” removal communication by saying that it is also illegal to remove the formed sheet metal that is screwed to the chassis that the “storage box” mounts to with screws. If anyone thinks it is legal to remove the formed sheet metal please provide the rule.

***Mr tech inspector Greg, how do you think the average tech guy would rule...or how would you rule?***

I welcome continued discussion of this illegal “storage box” cover/”storage box” removal with anyone who would like to use the rules as written in the GCR and the OEM names of the identified parts.

Hey, I’m learning as we discuss because the second 1st gen car that I am now building has the “storage box” & formed sheet metal removed. From my most recent reading/understanding of the f. & g. rules the car is ILLEGAL.

Have Fun ;)
David


***Define Bracketry? Does the weld nut on the floor count as attaching hardware?....... ***

Rabbit07, are you allowed to remove the spare tire nut that most times has a metal capture cover welded over the nut? Are you allowed to removed the car lifting jack bracktery that is welded to to the chassis ? Are you allowed to remove other welded to the chassis nuts/brackets that are used to hold other OEM piece parts in place?

[raffaelli]

The GCR definition of the dash regards instruments and gauges. That definition would exclude the glove box from being considered the dash. ( I think).
[/b]


The way that I read it is the that dash (differed to as an instrument panel per definitions in the rule book) is used to hold gauges and controls in place. Unless the glove box contains a gauge or instrument, or holds an instrument or control in place, I don't see how it can considered part of the dash. Therefore, I think it can be removed.

However, I have reached out to SCCA for some guidance. While this kind of discussion is great fun and food for thought, and very much appreciated, it ia always better to have the opinion of the authority having jurisdiction. I run into this sort of thing all the time in the office (architect readng code all the time).

[Z3_GoCar]

....
f. All other interior trim panels, except the dashboard, may be removed.

Still the rule ^ says NOTHING about “storage box” covers or “storage box”.
....
[/b]

Gee seems like it would fit as an interior trim panel, which would be a catch all for anything that's not part of the dash. Actually, what's the difference between a "storage box," a "storage bin," and just a "bin?" Josh, probably the best advice is to talk to your regional stewards. My gut would be to remove it along with the kick panels. These boxes are a know failure point as they were designed for a much lighter box than mandated by DOT. If they're known to fail on a street car, how distracting would it be to have it slamming open while racing?

James

[ddewhurst]

***Gee seems like it would fit as an interior trim panel, which would be a catch all for anything that's not part of the dash.***

James, my posts are with reference to the two "storage boxs" & formed sheet metal which is attached to the chassis.

With reference to your comment above please read the definition in the GCR Glossary for trim. "Coverings or attachments whose function is soley cosmetic". Is a cover a trim panel when the covers function is to hide stuff & keep that stuff in the box/bin from flying around the inside of the passemger compartment?

***These boxes are a know failure point as they were designed for a much lighter box than mandated by DOT. If they're known to fail on a street car, how distracting would it be to have it slamming open while racing?***

If you are refering ^ to the 1st gen Mazda RX-7 please provide the facts.

Have Fun ;)
David

[Z3_GoCar]

***Gee seems like it would fit as an interior trim panel, which would be a catch all for anything that's not part of the dash.***

James, my posts are with reference to the two "storage boxs" & formed sheet metal which is attached to the chassis.

With reference to your comment above please read the definition in the GCR Glossary for trim. "Coverings or attachments whose function is soley cosmetic". Is a cover a trim panel when the covers function is to hide stuff & keep that stuff in the box/bin from flying around the inside of the passemger compartment?

***These boxes are a know failure point as they were designed for a much lighter box than mandated by DOT. If they're known to fail on a street car, how distracting would it be to have it slamming open while racing?***

If you are refering ^ to the 1st gen Mazda RX-7 please provide the facts.

Have Fun ;)
David
[/b]

David,

I have no direct knoledge of the Rx-7 situation; however, if said bins or boxes were detachable plastic as they are in most cars then it'd seem like a no brainer to remove ala interior trim panel.

As for the second point, I was addressing Josh's question on the glove box that's part of the kick panel. The one on my street car is in the process of self opening due to the weight of the DOT mandated box being too heavy for the plastic support. I suspose the irony of the DOT mandating a heavier glove box latch for safety's sake resulting in a box that eventually cracks open due to fatigue in the support. Then having said box in a race car where the vibration will lead to an even quicker failure isn't easily imparted.

James

[ddewhurst]

***With reference to your comment above please read the definition in the GCR Glossary for trim.

Glossary-Trim: Coverings or attachments whose function is soley cosmetic.

Is a cover a trim panel when the covers function is to hide stuff in the box/bin from flying around the inside of the passemger compartment?***

***I have no direct knoledge of the Rx-7 situation; however, if said bins or boxes were detachable plastic as they are in most cars then it'd seem like a no brainer to remove ala interior trim panel.***

I said, you said & I'll try again. We'll agree maybe that the storage box cover may be removed as a bin cover. & no it's not a (in your words) no brainer to remove ala interior trim panel when WE use the glossary & the rules. A trim panel by glossray definition is "whose function is soley cosmetic" & the cover is more than cosmetic. To continue there is NO rule that allows removal of the storage box/bin.

Have Fun ;)
David

[mustanghammer]

***With reference to your comment above please read the definition in the GCR Glossary for trim.

Glossary-Trim: Coverings or attachments whose function is soley cosmetic.

Is a cover a trim panel when the covers function is to hide stuff in the box/bin from flying around the inside of the passemger compartment?***

***I have no direct knoledge of the Rx-7 situation; however, if said bins or boxes were detachable plastic as they are in most cars then it'd seem like a no brainer to remove ala interior trim panel.***

I said, you said & I'll try again. We'll agree maybe that the storage box cover may be removed as a bin cover. & no it's not a (in your words) no brainer to remove ala interior trim panel when WE use the glossary & the rules. A trim panel by glossray definition is "whose function is soley cosmetic" & the cover is more than cosmetic. To continue there is NO rule that allows removal of the storage box/bin.

Have Fun ;)
David
[/b]


Not that I really want to jump in here...but. I am in the process of putting an 85 RX7 on the street and have been trying to replace broken bin parts. On this car the cover and the bin are one piece. You cannot remove one without the other as the lid, the trim, the latch, the mount and the upper parts of the bin are a single molded item.

It is an interesting question howver I have have yet to see an IT RX7 that still has the bins or their frame work intact. This includes the one I have that was built in 95 and a whole bunch of cars that raced in the ARRC.


Have more fun!

[ddewhurst]

Scott, interesting info about the hinge being an inclusive part of the cover/box. Forgot about that.........

***This includes the one I have that was built in 95 and a whole bunch of cars that raced in the ARRC.***

This ^ is just like me seeing & saying that at this years Runoffs there were many cars with illegal roll cages & none of it means stink untill a protest is filed.

[lateapex911]

Jake, rule discussion is Fun as long as those involved DON'T use their selective response tools. I had asked you in a post within another thread relative to what your ITAC friend used to adjust the rear camber of his 2nd gen RX-7 & you DIDN'T respond. Please play nice & answer that question first………………
[/b]

sigh.............Rules discussions are fun eh? Well, if you say so. My "ITAC friend"? I assume (yechhh) you mean Mr. Bettencourt. How would I know what he's done under his car? He doesn't OWN his car anymore, and hasn't for years now. I've never been under his, or any FOM car, or any second gen ITS car for that matter. So, I don't know.




Second, within our most current rule discussion I need to DISAGREE with your understanding of 2007 rules GCR-304 item f. & g.

[/b]

Correct. We disagree. I find the passenger area to be where the people go, and the cargo are to be where the stuff goes. The bins are behind the back of the seats, and people put stuff in them. Behind the seats is, in my book, the cargo area. The bins in question could be called "Komprtmnts" in a Skoda parts manual. Who cares? They are cheesy bins with plastic tops that have one peice molded plastic hinges attached to a plastic ring, with no bottom. The bottom is formed by some carpet like material, or resin impregnated felt, and the whole bunch of it is screwed to some thin stamped metal brackets which are screwed to the chassis.

To my reading of the rule, it's perfectly legal to remove, and I provided my reasons in my earlier post.

So we disagree. Fine.

Why not protest someone to find out what the techs think? Plenty of cars to choose from.........

That's it from here.

[ddewhurst]

***Why not protest someone to find out what the techs think? Plenty of cars to choose from.........***

As long as the 1st gen RX-7 car/driver weighs 2280 pounds I could care less. As I stated previously neither of my 1st gen's had the passenger storage box.