rollbar 100 sq. inch rule and older used cars

[tom91ita]

per the 2006GCR:

2. Each mounting plate shall not be greater than 100 square inches and shall be no greater than 12 inches or less than 2 inches on a side. Cars registered prior to 10/1/95 are exempt from this rule.

i am looking at a used car that has a logbook that was issued prior to 10/1/95. or does registered mean with that owner?

can i add mounting plate material that would exceed the dimensions, etc. in the above? this would be much easier than removing some and adding some to add a petty bar, etc.

or is this an ethical question more than a legal question?

tia, tom

[lateapex911]

We have a few tech types on the site here, (dickita15 and Greg Amy. (Greg your handle just doesn't make me think 'cha cha cha' like Dickita does...;) )) and they will have real world knowledge on this.

But, IMHO, the rule says registered before in referrence to the logbook, and it then becomes impossible for them to know what was done when. Unless they have detailed pictures of all elements on record, that is.

So, you win...you have carte blanche, IMHO.

[Greg Amy]

'Cept ra-ra-ra-Greg has GCRs from Way Back Then...tread with care... ;)

As per a prior SCCA technical director:

"The mounting plate issue is a little interesting. Prior to 10/95, there were no maximum plate sizes specified in the GCR. Therefore, it was theoretically possible to make them exceedingly large with the limit being that of having the plate serve "a prohibited function" by creating additional chassis reinforcement, etc. The later specs allow only 100 square inches of contact area per plate, and have the dimensional limits of no greater than 12" wide and no narrower than 2"."

So, be careful of the prohibited function cluase. It's caught out more than a few people, the more recent item of note was a Spec Miata that made a mega-pound kill switch bracket...

Also note that, technically the logbook is "attached" to the rollcage, not the car. If you were to change the cage in the car (more specifically, the main rollhoop where the number is stamped) you're supposed to be issued a new logbook... - GA

[tom91ita]

'Cept ra-ra-ra-Greg has GCRs from Way Back Then...tread with care... ;) Therefore, it was theoretically possible to make them exceedingly large with the limit being that of having the plate serve "a prohibited function" by creating additional chassis reinforcement, etc. snip
So, be careful of the prohibited function cluase. It's caught out more than a few people, the more recent item of note was a Spec Miata that made a mega-pound kill switch bracket...[/b]

wow, that could be tough since the purpose of the mounting plate is to spread the load and make the car/system stronger. then there always the issue of losing a logbook?


Also note that, technically the logbook is "attached" to the rollcage, not the car. If you were to change the cage in the car (more specifically, the main rollhoop where the number is stamped) you're supposed to be issued a new logbook... - GA [/b]

i think harbor freight sells those number stamp sets. :rolleyes:

[Greg Amy]

All noted (scribbling in his little black book...)

Seriously, it's up to the inspector to determine what constitutes a prohibited function; it's subsequently up to the Stewards to determine if it's actionable. I certainly agree: there's some pretty big grey area there, a loophole large enough for a truck, but since 1995 SCCA has effectively declared 100 square inches per plate as "adequate" for safety purposes; anything significantly larger than that is automatically subjected to increased scrutiny as a prohibited function.

As for losing your logbook, don't; re-issuing a logbook is the same as a new registration, thus subject to current rules. Without the original logbook there's zero wiggle room for grandfathering.

As for punching your own numbers on the tubes, well, I think we all know what's right and wrong there. - GA

[seckerich]

Also remember that there was no provision for more than a 6 point cage prior to the ruling to allow the additional points on the firewall. If the plates now are too small just run them up a rocker or create a box. Any additions to old cages must meet the current specs. Use common sense and you should be OK.

[lateapex911]

Steve, good point on the 8th points, but I think he's talking about the main plates. And Gregs right on the prohibited function of course, that's always been the limiting factor, although it's a very grey issue, especially, as was pointed out the entire idea is reinforcement, LOL.

But the point remains that additional work is tough to define. If it's door bar work, or front intrusion/firewall work.....things that weren't on the book in 95, then it's obvious that it must meet new specs. But if was allowed in 95, all bets are off, I think, as in the petty bar item.

[dspillrat]

Quick revival of this thread to reinforce my understanding that the
100 square inch "base" is considered the attachment point ...thus allowing multiple bars to mount to this attachment anywhere on the 100 inches....Correct?

I've been questioned of legality of my use of 100 inches..."actually much less" to mount multiple bars.
Question has risen last couple of years during my annual. I have read and talked with several that say that any one of the 8 attachment points may have multiple bars.......as long as bars attach somewhere on allowed space.

What needs to be highlighted in my GCR, before my next annual?

David

[Greg Amy]

100 square inch "base" is considered the attachment point ...thus allowing multiple bars to mount to this attachment anywhere on the 100 inches....Correct? [/b]

Correct. In fact it specifically says that in the rules (don't have a copy immediately at hand).

[JimLill]

Correct. In fact it specifically says that in the rules (don't have a copy immediately at hand).
[/b]

see 2006 GCR pg GCR-104 section 18.2 para 8 E

[Bill Miller]

Quick revival of this thread to reinforce my understanding that the
100 square inch "base" is considered the attachment point ...thus allowing multiple bars to mount to this attachment anywhere on the 100 inches....Correct?

I've been questioned of legality of my use of 100 inches..."actually much less" to mount multiple bars.
Question has risen last couple of years during my annual. I have read and talked with several that say that any one of the 8 attachment points may have multiple bars.......as long as bars attach somewhere on allowed space.

What needs to be highlighted in my GCR, before my next annual?

David
[/b]


Had this happen on my old car. Tech guy was adamant that you could only have one tube going to the plate. Got rather miffed when I pulled out the GCR and showed him that you could have multiple tubes attached to one plate and it was still considered one point. He actually looked for other things to hassle me about. :018:

[dspillrat]

Had this happen on my old car. He actually looked for other things to hassle me about. :018:
[/b]


This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid...I go out of my way to be kind and considerate to every one involved with our events. I'm just wanting some "back up" if I'm told to fix it before next weekend, or notes made in my log book....
No questions when in line at registration, and don't cause more time then needed to tech cars, are my mottos.


david

[JeffYoung]

David, Buddy in Greensboro and Jeff L. in Cary are aware of this and give no hassles at annual time for multiple tubes on a single (legal) plate. Bring the car to Goblins and have it annualed there, or before the March Madness race.

[tom91ita]

with regards to going through tech, i have gone to the annual tech day for our region the last two years because i want to make sure i did not miss anything for updates.

it is also a much more relaxed time when i can ask the tech inspectors about various items and get advice on what they would like to see. you would be surprised how the attitudes change when i am asking for advice. and besides, i need it!

i consider the 150 mile round trip tow to be a good investment in not arriving at the race unprepared and better overall relations with the tech guys. not sure everyone is so lucky with an annual tech event near them.

the biggest concern i have with buying this car and driving it though the giant loop hole is losing the original logbook. who would want to remove bars/pads, etc. to get back in compliance for the current rules?

[seckerich]

This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid...I go out of my way to be kind and considerate to every one involved with our events. I'm just wanting some "back up" if I'm told to fix it before next weekend, or notes made in my log book....
No questions when in line at registration, and don't cause more time then needed to tech cars, are my mottos.


david
[/b]
If you come see me at VIR I can do your annual for 07. Just be sure to have door bars, belts, etc checked. I will be doing a Tech day in Asheville area and I think we will be doing one in Charlotte as well. I will be sure to have stickers with me. Are you planning to attend Goblins Go?

[latebrake]

Is tabbing the cage to the body still allowed?

[lateapex911]

Huh? "Tabbing"??? As in adding a tab between, say, the front downtube and the A pillar???

No...definately not. Never has been, ASFAIK.

[joeg]

You can tab, but the tabs count as a mounting points and you would quickly run out of mounting points.

[latebrake]

Seen them tabbed in 25 places so there is no way it counted as a mounting point. Its been a long time ago for me but I seem to have seen pictures of the tabbing and were it was allowed. Dont have a book right now nor the interest to go that far but it will make the cage stronger and the (other) stuff as well. NASA wont let you and I'm not sure about PCA or BMW clubs. My point here is it makes no sense to restrict mounting points and them allow tabbing,but I know its done.

[JeffYoung]

There was some discussion (maybe a year ago?) about tabs like this being legal IF NOT ATTACHED to the car, meaning, tight enough fit that they put pressure on the body but not actually attached.

I wouldn't do it myself, whether legal or not it certainly smells of cheating.

[Greg Amy]

Improved Touring has NEVER allowed "tabbing". In fact, the original rules were a 6-point bolt-in rollcage.

Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. It may have been done, it may have been (intentionally) overlooked, but it was never legal. - GA

[lateapex911]

Seen them tabbed in 25 places so there is no way it counted as a mounting point. Its been a long time ago for me but I seem to have seen pictures of the tabbing and were it was allowed. Dont have a book right now nor the interest to go that far but it will make the cage stronger and the (other) stuff as well. NASA wont let you and I'm not sure about PCA or BMW clubs. My point here is it makes no sense to restrict mounting points and them allow tabbing,but I know its done.
[/b]

HUGELY illegal, and I am surprised that if it really was an IT car that it didn't get protested, and PDQ.

Any attachment between any part of the cage OTHER than the 8 allowed (and specified) locations is not, and never has been legal.

My car has the cage forced into contact in many areas, but it isn't attached mechanically. (welded, bolted, etc.)

[tom_sprecher]

The last version of my car had a few tabs I was aware of and quite a few I was not. I did not cut through the ones I could see as it would have required a saw and blade I did not have and I was too lazy to fool with it. If someone protested I would do what was necessary to correct the situation. :bash_1_:

When I cut the old shell off of the roll cage it became apparent that there were a few additional tabs I did not know existed when the shell would not come off the roll cage. :huh:

[latebrake]

what about the nascar type door bars. two or more hoz bars with several vert. spacers makes for a good safe door. them they take the last hoz bar and weld a vert bar to the floor or valance. May only be 2 inches long. is this an extra connection point? seen a lot of them too.

[seckerich]

what about the nascar type door bars. two or more hoz bars with several vert. spacers makes for a good safe door. them they take the last hoz bar and weld a vert bar to the floor or valance. May only be 2 inches long. is this an extra connection point? seen a lot of them too.
[/b]
Yes it is counted as an attachment point. You may only attach to the main 6 points and the optional 2 to the firewall--PERIOD. Anything else you saw or thought you heard is illegal. If it is welded to the cage and the body it counts.

[tom_sprecher]

I've seen where the vertical bar you describe touches the floor and is used as a jacking point support.

[dickita15]

Tabbing is legal in prod and common in pro rally. the one gray area that I wish was legal for sure is when you have a cradle for the seat and in is attached to the main hoop and or door bars and then to the tunnel. I have seen some nice designs that I think are better than attaching to the floor but I do not know how it is not an attachment.

[dspillrat]

If you come see me at VIR I can do your annual for 07. Just be sure to have door bars, belts, etc checked. I will be doing a Tech day in Asheville area and I think we will be doing one in Charlotte as well. I will be sure to have stickers with me. Are you planning to attend Goblins Go?
[/b]

Hi Steve,
Thanks for the offer, I'll take you up on that, providing your're not wiring up a exhaust :P ....
I'm registered but currently without motivation, literally. I do have a Stroker engine and a tired race engine I've used last 2 years, 3-4 70,000 -80,000 mile stockers. I will be finishing up my motorvator any day now. Can't rush perfection.
I really hope to see you guys there.

david

[anrkii]

I have a question about a possible addon to my cage,

I have an 85 itb crx, and it has a little rust in the corners of the floor, its an autopower bolt-in with the standard sandwich arrangement.

I would like to add larger, welded in plates under the existing pads, then bolt them back down as before, just for added peace of mind.

Would that be a problem? if so, any other suggestions? Im not comfortable with an all welded-in setup, as the floors on these old hondas are super thin, and wavy, plus mines a lil rusty.

[latebrake]

I raced an E/prod car and just may have gotten this mixed up with IT. Sorry about that didnt want to start anything uphill here. I do however like the seat mount on the cage install and think this should be allowed in the interest of safty even at the risk of someone bending the rules. Lawrence