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mlitemr2
10-06-2006, 07:32 AM
Is there anyone who drives Fiero's? I could sure use some tips! :D

latebrake
10-06-2006, 12:18 PM
the later cars look good. Can the v/6 run in IT? I know the 4 bangers were the iron Duke engine and i was told that there was a marine engine of the same type that made more hp.

DavidM
10-06-2006, 01:31 PM
There's a guy here in the Atlanta area that races one in ITA. I think I've seen him post a couple times on the forum. May want to try a search and see if you can find his name.

David

88YB1
10-13-2006, 02:14 PM
That would be me as I haven't seen anyother Fieros on the track at RA lately. I race an 88 Formula in ITA. This is my third year as a driver/builder/rebuilder etc. The car is still in the development stage as is the driver. With each race we have been getting faster. Not shure how much improvement is driver and how much is car. I started with RA lap times in the 2:15 to 2:20 range. My last outing I managed a 1:53. I've made a couple of changes since then, and the car ran better at Nashville compared to the compitition. It is my guess that a well prepared Fiero with a very good driver can run in the front third of the pack. The Fiero would probably do much better on a shorter hp type track. Send me a pm, and I will help as much as I can.

Chuck
ITA #34

JeffYoung
10-13-2006, 04:22 PM
Chuck's car looked good at CMP in May. It appears to me, just watching it, that the V6 Fiero has potential.

iambhooper
10-14-2006, 09:13 AM
John Lundquist (sp?) built an ITA Fiero last year and has run it at VIR and Lowes some this year (I know Jeff has raced against it). The Fiero has potential, but there are limitations.

First and formost, I wouldn't recomend using the 4cyl car in any class. While the motor is mechanically capable of producing god awefull amounts of HP... these options are IT legal. The weight same or similar to the V6 cars.

If you are going to choose a V6 car, I would go with the '86 or '87 SE with a wing delete rear deck. Intial reaction would be to go with the '88 for it's purpose built suspension and while this is really nice, it adds some expense to the setup (the only year/model for hubs, rotors and the like in GM's lineup). The earlier suspension can be bult to peroform nearly as well as the later... except for he bump stear in the rear. The '88 cars had a purpose built suspension that accomidated for the bump stear with some additional tie rods and a better placement of the struts. The also did away with the Citation control arms.

Among the Fiero crowd, it is a comon assumption that the earlier cars had a better front suspension that the later, and the later had a better rear setup. The ideal situation is to use the '88 cradle on the 86 or 87 platform... except the SCCA won't let you do this since you have to relocated the mounting holes for the struts.

I never raced one, although I owned one for 17 years, but I have a fair aomunt of understanding with these cars. Who knows... watching John go around VIR with his car is giving me the itch to build one.

There is a wealth of knowledge on the web and I beleive a Fiero racing news group too. Hope I helped and didn't ramble too much.

hoop

benspeed
11-06-2006, 01:16 PM
Count me in the Fiero team - building one for a winter project since my other car is done.

Any spare racing stuff - shoot me an email

[email protected]

Thanks,

lateapex911
11-06-2006, 03:22 PM
Ben....if you want I'll shoot some pics of the dude who has registered to run the ARRcs in ITA.

Anyone know much about his program?

RacerBill
11-07-2006, 08:54 AM
Since this is a Fiero thread, I'll throw out the following classified ad from the Indy Region website.

http://www.indyscca.org/information/Classi...lassifieds.html (http://www.indyscca.org/information/Classifieds/Classifieds.html)

benspeed
11-07-2006, 09:37 AM
Ben....if you want I'll shoot some pics of the dude who has registered to run the ARRcs in ITA.

Anyone know much about his program?
[/b]

Thanks Jake - that would be excellent. Keen to see how this guys does. The car I have is very fresh and should be very quick (I hope) It'll lay down some stripes on the pavement nicely.

shwah
11-07-2006, 09:49 AM
A yellow ITB Fiero driven by Michael Braidman from IN set the Blackhawk Farms track record on October 29th. That 2.5 liter seems to have gobs of torque out of the corners - no surprise there.

The more I think about it, this may be a very good car for the class.

I think that Michael runs more Midwest Council than SCCA.

benspeed
11-12-2006, 10:30 AM
Sweet! I think this car will really run with a full development program. Most of the cars I've seen are not even close to a 10/10ths effort. I'm pretty lucky that most of the expensive stuff is already done on my car except a set of coil overs and the cage.

:024:

I googled this guy but got dead links to the race results - anybody have a link?

shwah
11-12-2006, 11:39 PM
Here are the race results I was referring to:

results page (http://www.scca-chicago.com/roadracing/2006/blackhawk_fall/)

mylaps (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=447533&highlight=7)

benspeed
11-13-2006, 03:06 PM
Thanks Chris - I left him a message through MyLaps.

Cheers,

bp

PS - Not sure I'd go with that mustang on the Fiero Vs. Mustang thread.

88YB1
11-28-2006, 09:47 PM
Thought I'd share my ARRC expierence. Basic car setup Hoosier 225/45R15, 31 psi to start, -1* camber 5* caster and zero toe up front. -1.5 camber and zero toe rear. 350# front srings and 275# rears. Car weighed 2679 with full fuel and driver. THe handling improved ove the previous set up, but the 275# rear springs proved too soft for Road Atlanta. THe left rear would bottom out in 1, 7, 10b, and hit really solid at the dip in 12. 12 was so bad that the car would stop turning creating a double apex. The best we were able to get with this setup was 1:51.
It was a unique weekend problems aside. My driving partner drove the ProIT where he scored the 1:51. He finished 34th. I drove the ARRC. I fouled a plug and lost a cylinder in lap ten which forced me to retire from the race. I finished 34th. All this in car # 34. Anybody out there willing to trade for number 1? LOL. My best time for the weekend was a 1:54, and that was on hoosiers with 11 heat cycles, and the car bottoming out as indicated above.
I had a hair raising expierence going into turn one early in the race. The throttle pedal stuck on the floor when i lifted for braking. I left foot braked, pried the pedal loose with my right toe and turned in at almost full speed. I managed to keep it on track until just before the top of the hill where the two left wheels got into the grass. I managed to gather it up and get back on track in time for two. Still haven't found out what or why it stuck. The cable appears to be ok so I will be replacing the pivot block.
The ARRC weekend was a blast. Looking forward to next year. Now if only i can trade for a smaller number.

Chuck
88 Pontiac Fiero
ITA #34

lateapex911
11-29-2006, 02:16 PM
...., and hit really solid at the dip in 12. 12 was so bad that the car would stop turning creating a double apex. .... .
Chuck
88 Pontiac Fiero
ITA #34
[/b]

I'll vouch for that...I was behind him in 12 once, and left a little extra room...it didn't look like a comfortable setup!

When I first read your setup I instantly questioned the rear springs as too soft, but I know NOTHING about Fieros. But reading that, and from my visual impression, it adds up.

88YB1
11-29-2006, 07:54 PM
Thanks for the comfirmation. The car is in the early stages of development. I had initially set the car up with 425# rear springs to keep the inside front tire from lifting. They proved too heavy and made the car very twitchey. I went with the 275s on the advise of an expierenced Fiero racer who used data aqusition to arrive at that rate. They may work at tracks like CMP, but were too soft for RA. I have ordered a set of 300 and 325# rear springs. Budget doesen't allow for track rental for tuning, so it will be done at the next few events.

Chuck

benspeed
11-29-2006, 09:58 PM
Thanks for the info on the spring rates. I have opted for 300/300 setup for a starter foundation but plan on burning some more $$ on springs and might go with 350 and 400 increments.

What are you going to do for the bottoming out?

zenbutcher
11-29-2006, 10:03 PM
Hey Guys,

I'll be campaigning an ITA Fiero in the CenDiv-Ooops Great Lakes Div. I bought Steve Perkins '87 Fiero GT. He ran it at Waterford. It seems pretty well sorted, but I don't know a thing about Fieros so any and all help is appreciated! I've been racing a GP Midget the past 6 years so this will be a big change - going to a car thats 2x's the weight, with DOT tires.

I've been looking for an IT car for a few months and when I saw the Fiero I said to myself 'that should be fun!' I'm a RWD person.

From reading this thread it seems like the car can be competitive with seat-time and development.

Peter Baumgartner

JeffYoung
11-29-2006, 10:20 PM
The Fieros are coming out of the woodwork....lol..you go guys.....I always liked that car....

iambhooper
11-29-2006, 10:51 PM
The Fieros are coming out of the woodwork....lol..you go guys.....I always liked that car....
[/b]


How 'bout "Spec Fiero" :023:

iambhooper
11-30-2006, 09:36 PM
Jeff,

Ther Fiero was listed with 135 HP (they later changed the way it was determined and was listed at 140, but it was the same 135) and 170 lbs of torque. They were quick for the day, 8.5 sec to 60 mph, top end was in the 140 range.

A well built motor with a trick cam and roller rockers could net you in the neighborhood of 190-210 HP. I think that in IT trim it should be possible to get 155 HP, maybe a bit more.

Weight distribution is close to 45/55. I think you could get that a little closer to 50/50 with a fuel cell. The GCR allows you to put the cell up front in midengine cars... and doesn't stipulate removal of the original tank. So, one could wind up with close to the max allowable 25 gal for enduro's :D. Stock cell is behind the shifter in the console.

benspeed
12-01-2006, 09:50 AM
I bring my Fiero to the dyno for tuning next week with several different types of exhaust to see what works best and some different chips. But I swear I'm not really putting out a real effort to get this car fast - its just for kicks! (actually the dyno test must be good or I will not put a cage in the car)

I will not post my numbers unless bribes are made. :birra: (BEER IS ACCEPTABEL)

latebrake
12-01-2006, 10:59 AM
I bring my Fiero to the dyno for tuning next week with several different types of exhaust to see what works best and some different chips. But I swear I'm not really putting out a real effort to get this car fast - its just for kicks! (actually the dyno test must be good or I will not put a cage in the car)

I will not post my numbers unless bribes are made. :birra: (BEER IS ACCEPTABEL)
[/b]

Hey Benspeed I live in Danville,VA. about 15 min from VIR. post the hp # and i will buy you a beer if you run the car in my neck of the woods. I would even help as crew so i can get a good look at your set up. i knew for some reason i should have gotten one when it was just laying there asking to be hauled off.

I have a dirt track friend who knows a lot about these cars/engines so maybe i can pick his brain some for some legal hp on the thing. You may have to buy me a beer for the info. :birra:

Lawrence

zenbutcher
12-01-2006, 11:01 AM
Anyone want to help with where to put the tow rings on the front and rear? I'm at a loss. I'd love to go right out the sunroof.

Peter B.
'87 Fiero GT

JeffYoung
12-01-2006, 11:29 AM
That torque number is strong. The car be a contendah...

benspeed
12-01-2006, 12:17 PM
Hey Lawrence - I'll PM you with the numbers and you send me a beers of the world gift pack!?!

Jeff - you sound like a guy from Jerzey

I just have doubts on the handling, but as our friend Andy says - if you can make the power that is the harder half - getting the handling right is much more doable.

I'm putting together an array of springs and already have two sets of sway bars for this car too. What I really need is an engineer who knows what they are doing. Andy is happy to help.......but then he'll know all my tricks!

I bet I would find Greg lurking around on a test day too - maybe I should hire Greg's engineer away - my beer is colder than his anyway.

I'll have to go down south to test under a shroud of secrecy. I'll hire Mattberg to run my PR campaign over why the Fiero needs to be 500 lbs lighter and can run 17 inch rims.

Greg Amy
12-01-2006, 12:25 PM
Dude, you'll post your numbahs here in public like the rest of the men on this forum, and you'll shut up about it. Otherwise I'll go put my japcar on a DynoJet and make you fruity GM guys look really silly...

DYNO WARS!!!!

Recognize that Kessler is more of a racing slut than I am: for a carton of cigarettes and six-pack of Monster you could probably have him dancing nekked on the hood (I think I just hurt my brain with that visual...)

JamesB
12-01-2006, 12:37 PM
yeah, any pictures like that should be kept to yourself, it doesnt bode well if your reading this site and eating lunch at the same time.

JeffYoung
12-01-2006, 12:44 PM
I thought with the 88's suspension, you had most of your problems cured? And, if you can put the cell up front, the weight distribution issue goes away.

But for the fact this is a GM product, on paper it sure seems like a better A car than the Mk.II MR2. 170 ft lbs is STRONG for A. Real strong.

Greg Amy
12-01-2006, 01:20 PM
The GCR allows you to put the cell up front in midengine cars... and doesn't stipulate removal of the original tank.[/b]

Hoop, could you please cite this? It's not a challenge; it's a request for info...

lateapex911
12-01-2006, 02:38 PM
That got my attention as well. Section 19 stipulates the basics for cars that require cells, and even there, it says nothing about location other than the 12" rule.

The ITCS also says nothing about front allowances for mid engine cars.....but allows you to replace[b] the stock tank with a cell within 12". IF that new location encroaches the driver compartment, you must construct a metal bulkhead, and the cell must be 6" above ground unless it's located within bodywork or the original floorpan.

I see nowhere that the rule allows stock AND new cells to co-exist, and no any rule that allows you to locate the cell more than 12" from the stock tank (perimeter to perimeter), except the notes on the spec line for certain BMWs.

DavidM
12-01-2006, 05:52 PM
All I gotta say is I was behind (right behind) Chuck's car at the ARRC and he pulled me by 2 car lengths or so down the back straight. I'd start to close towards the end of the straight with a little more top end, but he pulled me off the corner. My exits were cleaner as it looked like he pushed a bit through the corner. My engine is tired with 2 seasons on it, but it's a full built motor. Take that for what's it worth.

David

iambhooper
12-01-2006, 06:15 PM
ok... ok... i may have been wrong. for some reason, i thought the fiero had the same line note stipulating a "trunk mounted fuel cell may be added" that was noted for the Fiat X 1/9. i will have to go back and dig up some old GCR's to see if they changed that. with the fiat, i was told by someone with "authorotay" that the trunk mount could go in the front. my bad.

Ben... you gotta post the numbers, so we can see. I would make the jump... probably more for 2008 than 07, if I thought it was doable. What have you done to the motor? Have you freshend it at all, or is it original?

Jeff... the consensus has been that the pre '88's had a good enough front suspension (perhaps a touch better), the '88's had a better rear suspension design. There are ways to improve both effectively. I don't think the car will pivot like a Miata, but that remains to be seen.

hoop

racer_tim
12-02-2006, 06:00 PM
Saw this on eBay. # 260059917680

benspeed
12-03-2006, 10:02 AM
Beer for numbers. :birra: (I'll post to my other mid-engine compadres!)

I'm very intersted to learn what folks say about the fuel cell up front. That was something I was considering to improve the balance of the car.

Greg Amy
12-03-2006, 10:38 AM
Ben, I've gone through the rules again, and I can't find any allowance for fuel tank in the front of mid-engine cars. HOWEVER, the rule does state that the fuel cell must be "within 12 inches of original location."

I clarified that with Sven Pruett several years ago, and it's been confirmed by others, that if any part of the old tank is within any part of the new fuel cell - in other words, if you can take a 1-foot school ruler and touch any part of both concurrently, ignoring firewalls, panels, and such - then it's a legal installation. An illustration of this is Serra's installation of a fuel cell where the passenger seat was in Lorenzo's CRX.

So, it all boils down to where your stock fuel tank is. From reading above, someone said the Fiery's fuel tank was near the shifter? Get under there and find it, then see if you can install a fuel cell in the "frunk" within 12 inches of it. If so, you're set.

And don't forget to remove the original fuel tank; the rules specifically say "replace", not install... - GA

lateapex911
12-03-2006, 12:23 PM
Ben, I considered such an idea with my RX-7, and I actually COULD have gotten it ahead of the drive axle and met the requirements, but my engineer friends said no, not a good idea.

But, I would imagine that you could move it into the pass footwell area and still be within 12" of the original perimeter. Might help offset driver weight a bit. Of course, getting the car on the scales would be a prudent starting point. Also, any ballast you need can go up to the front of the footwell as well.

88YB1
12-03-2006, 04:56 PM
The factory fuel tank in a Fiero is in the tunnel between the the seats. It is a torpedo shaped tank and extends from the front firewall to the rear firewall. A front mounted cell is well within the 12" rule.

Chuck

benspeed
12-04-2006, 10:20 AM
Hi Chuck - I figured you might chime in on this.

Any chance you could post a pic of what the install looks like? I still have some key things to check off my list before I put a cage in the car but I might go for the cell install at the same time the cage is being installed.

Thanks to all for the rules confirmation - beyond helpful - my luck I'd be 13 inches away. Anybody remember when Kip lost the ARRC for weight installed improperly in the footwell of his bimmer?

Hey Greg - any real thought on the MR2?

latebrake
12-04-2006, 10:54 AM
My 944 E/P car had the fuel cell in the passanger compartment within the 12 rule. right off my right elbow. corner weights we great. if any part of the orginial tank is within 12 of the new it makes the cut for the rules.

Lawrence

Greg Amy
12-04-2006, 10:56 AM
As an aside, I don't really think that putting the tank in the frunk is a good idea. You'll be adding to the polar moment of the car, and I think your turn-in characteristics would be hurt more than the improvement in balance you'd gain. I suggest a better alternative location is in the cockpit on the passenger side of the car, as close to CG as possible, or slightly forward.

Ben, no action on the car. Burned out mentally and financially, and it's not a priority right now. First focus is to get the NX2000 back online (we had to disassemble the top end after the ARRC race) and then I'll start playing with the Toyota.

But, of course, I have a lot of optimism for it. Consider the bogey for the class right now is the NX2000, Acura Integra, and Mazda Miata; the question you have to ask yourself is "can this car beat those?". If I didn't think so, I wouldn't bother. However, the MR2 overtook dominance in SSB after the NX's reign, so that's a plus; despite the strut suspension I believe the better balance and RWD characteristics would indicate an improvement in handling versus the egg.

So, the only other unknown is power: can the MR2's 2.2L stroker engine develop the legs in comparison to the NX? That remains to be seen. But at only 30 pounds heavier than the NX I think it'll be a fun fight... - GA

benspeed
12-04-2006, 02:33 PM
Good point on the polar moment. Chuck was kind enough to share some pics - he did a pro job on the cell and that cell is within 12 no problem.

I'll try eliminating the push with springs/bars and see if I can get the power down without lifting the inside front - chuck relayed that has prevented him from putting down power on exit. I do the dyno tomorrow morning - taking the day off to play.

HOOSER 99
12-04-2006, 05:17 PM
Looks like a good start for a metal bulkhead :023:

http://www.sardesonracing.com/interiors.htm

benspeed
12-05-2006, 08:51 PM
Bad news - the car made really, really crappy power. 110 hp 160 lbs. It didn't run great at the top end and was breaking up. No room for a motor project/budget so this car might not get built. Hopefully it's electronics or fuel.

iambhooper
12-05-2006, 09:53 PM
Ben,

You have PM.

hoop

JeffYoung
12-06-2006, 08:44 AM
Is that a stock motor? If so, that's not bad at all for an A car Ben and I would think the torque is "class leading."

If you get 25% with an IT build, you are looking at over 130 whp and nearly 200 ft lbs of torque!

Why is this disappointing?

Gary L
12-06-2006, 09:57 AM
IMO, Ben's torque number is in the ballpark (given dyno variations, of course) for a stock 2.8l. But the horsepower is way down relative to torque. This makes perfect sense if the engine is breaking up at the top end. IIRC, dyno charts I've seen on this (stock) engine would typically show 125-ish hp with that sort of torque, and peaks at around 5000 and 3500, respectively.

Andy Bettencourt
12-06-2006, 10:48 AM
You won't see that kind of increase in torque with an IT build. I bet 145whp and 175ft/lbs is very doable. A 100% IT build would really wake this baby up. I had an 88 Formula with a custom cat-back that ran 15.4 in the 1/4 mile...and these cars are NOT light...2750lb curb weight.

Do a nice tune up, cap, plugs...catalytic converters a know to get clogged up as well.

JeffYoung
12-06-2006, 10:55 AM
Andy, good info. Even with "just" (LOL) 175 ft lbs, that looks like a strong A car except for the weight.

Did you autox yours? Did it turn?

Andy Bettencourt
12-06-2006, 11:05 AM
I did. The 87's had 15x7's on all 4 corners so a decent amount of tire could be used. The 88's had 6" front wheels. The issue will be low speed corner exit. With all that torque and stock springs (in solo) the front got pretty light and induced some push.

When looking at an interesting IT project I see things from two angles. One, you have a car that will handle and stop great but you have to work SUPER hard in a finite landscape for power (ITA Miata) or two, you have a car that will make great power but you will have to work SUPER hard to get it to turn (NX2000 and Fiero). I think the latter is a better POTENTIAL package should you conquer the demons.

IT prep allows you to do some cool stuff for handling so I think you can get it to where it won't kill you in the turns but you knock people down on the straights. And remember, a car like this would be REAL hard to pass.

JeffYoung
12-06-2006, 11:12 AM
Fiero seems like the A equivalent of the TR8. Torque monster with adequate handling.

Agree on your theory that it is easier in IT land to solve handling problems than power problems.

How are the brakes on the Fiero?

latebrake
12-06-2006, 12:23 PM
can the 88 use 7x15 wheels in the front? :114:

Andy Bettencourt
12-06-2006, 01:14 PM
All ITA cars can use 15 x 7's if they can fit in the wheel wells.

latebrake
12-06-2006, 01:28 PM
can you cut or roll fender flares?

benspeed
12-06-2006, 02:00 PM
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Couple of points on why the power might have sucked: the straight pipe that was supposedly fitted didn't fit and we couldn't test with it so I was using a really crappy exhaust. I think the breaking up could be solved by a basic tune up and perhaps going back to the stock chip.

The shame of it is that this is a built motor - granted it has some miles on it but it was balanced and blueprinted, injectors were balanced and it should really be putting out some better numers. If she won't jump into a good range of performance after that I will dump the car since I'm not in the mood to pour money into a new engine when I have a brand new gorgeous stock car to play with.

But ITA looks like a pretty fun playground....... not bailing out quite yet since the winter only just started and this will keep me busy. :snow_cool:

iambhooper
12-06-2006, 08:02 PM
Ben,

The exhaust could have been clogged, causing some of the issues. I would check that... a 2.5" exhaust really helps these cars a lot. I would also check the harness around the coil... see if there is any damage, dry rot, ect. (this could go for the entire harness as well). The tach filter can cause a world of problems. Lastly, what chip are you using? Was it a custom chip or stock?

Were the numbers at the rear wheels? If so, that's not bad. I would guess GM figured the stock numbers at the flywheel.

hoop

benspeed
12-07-2006, 10:33 AM
Hi Hoop,

It's a custom chip but not sure of the origin. I do have the stock chip. Regarding the exhaust, I'll be putting the straight pipe on it, doing a tune up, ohming everything to make sure electronics are good, confirming fuel pressure is set properly and injectors are working, check the timing and then bring the sucka back to see what that does.

I'm surprised folks think 110 isn't bad - that won't put this car anywhere near the front. I'd be dicing with ITC guys. Andy's Miata is lighter and makes 20 more HP and will out handle this car on any part of the track. Unless I can get some real power without doing a motor project this will stay a street car.

Thanks for the heads up on the coil - I was thinking of replacing it during the tune up since they can't be much $$.

Cheers

Andy Bettencourt
12-07-2006, 10:38 AM
I'm surprised folks think 110 isn't bad - that won't put this car anywhere near the front. I'd be dicing with ITC guys. Andy's Miata is lighter and makes 20 more HP and will out handle this car on any part of the track.

[/b]

Don't forget the 60ft/lb advantage you have... :114:

I would estimate a stock example would make 115hp and 160 ft/lbs at the wheels...all from 135 stock crank hp.

JeffYoung
12-07-2006, 12:45 PM
Ben if it makes you feel better, I had a high rpm miss on my car (a torquey motor) and it put out 125 whp and 185 ft lbs of torque. As I think Hoop indicated above, a high rpm miss really hurts your hp without affecting the torque as much because the miss occurs at high rpm where the hp is made.

I cured the miss and came back with 160 whp and 195 wtq.

Cure the miss, take the cats and emissions stuff off, and see what you get. I think an IT build on that car ought to get you 135-140 at teh wheels at least and probably some of the best torque numbers in ITA.

lateapex911
12-07-2006, 01:38 PM
yea, that Fiero at the ARRCs.... I came off 7, the 45-50 mph turn before the looong straight with a better shot on him, and he squirted out once he hit the throttle, and pulled many lengths down the straight. Ok, maybe not "many", but I remember being depressed about that. Now, out of 12, he had so many bottoming problems, I was able to run right by on the front straight, but IIRC that car was a stock motor.

Never judge a motor thats not running right...

oceanis281
12-13-2006, 01:14 PM
After reading all the posts, I'm still confused as to whether I should consider building a 85/86 fiero 4 cylinder for ITB... not trying to win a championship, but don't wish to be embarrased off the course either....I have never road raced before, just strait line racing...I have the opportunity to purchase a 4 cylinder stick and a v6 se automatic car, the auto se car has a moon roof..but not sure if this is a way to go...both cars are supposedly complete and the price would be $500.00 for both of them...is this a good place to start, or should I look for a mr2 or CRxSI?

ANY ADVISE would be appreciated, especially from Fiero racers, but any feed back is appreciated...just don't want to waste money in in the beginning...as I won't have a LARGE budget...just wanna have some FUN...

tks
Chuck

JamesB
12-13-2006, 01:18 PM
If you get the V6 your looking at ITA, if you get the I4 your ITB so thats the start of what you want to look at. Additionally, before you worry about a race car or racing, if you don't have any track experience why not hit up a few HPDE and see if its even what you want to do before you put an effort into an IT car and find out twisties are just not your thing.

Andy Bettencourt
12-13-2006, 01:42 PM
I wrote this somewhere before and I stand by it:

Some of the biggest money pits started life because of a cheap donor. DON'T let that be the reason you get something. You can find excellent donor cars for short money. If you must build, and you have chosen an oddball, you must choose something you love, because you will have to fall back on that when times are rough.

If you have no singular desires, pick a class and find a good car. EVERYONE will tell you that it will cost you a small fraction of the money to buy and not build. RIght now there are solid cars in all classes in teh classifieds.

If you want to go Fiero, go V6 IMHO.

benspeed
12-13-2006, 01:44 PM
I've been doing the racing game for awhile and it is always best to buy a built car. Now I'm not listening to my own advice on the Fiero, but that's because I already have a full blown SPO race car ready to go for next year. (Which is my main focus) The Fiero is a winter experiment and it is very fun building a car. Its a cool, oddball car that has never gotten the respect on the track I think it can earn. That said I am going to be very sure the car can make excellent power and the car is in very stout condition before I spend $2K to put a cage in it. I can sell it as a street car and get my money back or even make a couple hundered - but selling it as a mid-pack race car is a cash buster.

My buddy is going to do a bolt in cage (Kirk) in his 87 GT and we will weld in reinforcements etc - but for me a custom welded cage from a top shop is the only way to go. He'll save about $1K and likely get his car on the track for under $2K. He will also get whipped but he's new and doesn't care - just wants to race.

I'd look for a built car unless you are a really good mechanic. Of the two Fieros I'd do the ITB car - I don't think you If the Iron Duke is healthy that will get you on track the cheapest but I have no idea how competitive that car would be in ITB. I think an ITA Fiero would be very competitive if it's making over 130 hp at the wheels. If I can't get my car to do about 130-140 hp I wont build it since I dislike losing very much. Make sure the car will perform before you gut it - just cause it might look like a race car doesn't mean it's fast.

PS - found a bunch of stuff last night that would have caused my car to dyno so poorly. Just basic maintenance crap overlooked - talk about worn plugs, wires, rotor and cap all shot and the dirtiest air filter ever. Looking foward to going back to the dyno with a well running car and see what we get. Compression test tonight and timing check and I'll be ready. Happiness is a low base so they say! Also, don't trust the kid who tells you he methodically maintains his car.

JamesB
12-13-2006, 01:56 PM
Oh I trust a kid that says he methodically maintains his car. Right after I pull a plug or 4, check the wires for cracking and age, pop the cap and check it out, and finally take a look at the fluids. If they all check out within reason then I believe him and wonder if the cars got electrical issues.....oh wait I was buying a VW, it was gaurenteed to have electrical issues.

benspeed
12-14-2006, 09:45 AM
DOOM! This project is officially suspended. Compression was sick on two cylinders. I will be sending the collection agents from my local sports book to visit the seller and exchange the car back for my $$.

This will be what the kid looks like when they are done collecting :dead_horse:

Greg Amy
12-14-2006, 10:03 AM
You give up too easy. Good thing you didn't enter an ITA race: we woulda had you runnin' home cryin' to Momma within 3 laps...

:P

You didn't ACTUALLY think you were going to be competitive in ITA with a dead-stock engine, did you? Even one with good compression...?

latebrake
12-14-2006, 10:18 AM
DOOM! This project is officially suspended. Compression was sick on two cylinders. I will be sending the collection agents from my local sports book to visit the seller and exchange the car back for my $$.

This will be what the kid looks like when they are done collecting :dead_horse:
[/b]

Ahh poo! i was so hoping someone with the know how and the cash was going to build one so i could steal the go fast info from. have to wait and see i guess. :(

Andy Bettencourt
12-14-2006, 10:30 AM
Listen, ITA is the shizz-nizzle in tha NARRC, and you know it. Sell that bucket and get with GregA. He should be willing to sell you the Egg or the Mister Duece. Get-er-done.

Greg Amy
12-14-2006, 10:34 AM
There ya go, Ben: want a mid-engine rocket? Finance the MR2. I'll build it for cost and you pay for it, own it, and drive it. We enjoy building and learning, you enjoy driving...I'm workin' on some pretty trick ideas... - GA

benspeed
12-14-2006, 12:44 PM
Motor was not stock - balanced, blueprinted and setup as a comp motor. Bought it because it should have been relatively competitive as built - suspension was the one improvement point. This puppy is going on the block - not a financially viable project now - a built car would be the better choice knowing this motor is not going to last. That's what you get for trusting the friend of a friend.

How about I buy a built engine and you guys come down to put it in? I can get a motor for $3K done nice - just need qualified labor - unlike me!

cherokee
12-14-2006, 12:53 PM
I worked at a GM dealer when the Fiero came out, putting a motor in one is not THAT bad.

Greg Amy
12-14-2006, 01:19 PM
Bring it up here, Ben. You could get a cage installed at the same time...

benspeed
12-14-2006, 04:54 PM
I can see it now, the rev limiter receiver on my ignition, the oil pressure light with a little reciever on it and a fuel cutoff receiver...... :018: I know you Nissan guys have that technology :birra: Will you guys place the lead up in the front part of the cage for better balance???

PS - the seller wouldn't give my $$ back so Vinny Bustayuballs will have to visit.

lateapex911
12-14-2006, 05:01 PM
There ya go, Ben: want a mid-engine rocket? Finance the MR2. I'll build it for cost and you pay for it, own it, and drive it. We enjoy building and learning, you enjoy driving...I'm workin' on some pretty trick ideas... - GA [/b]

Ya know Ben, tyhat's a pretty neat offer, actually.

benspeed
12-14-2006, 06:48 PM
It's that ITA shizzle that keeps drawing me back....

Nah, I'd rather rent that MR2 for a couple races when its done....

Or tell ya what, I got a car that I'll trade for the whole MR2 and the conversion....

benspeed
12-21-2006, 08:21 PM
OK - the latest Fiero update must be delivered, especially since Herr Bettencourt was telling me I must Sig Heil to the shizzle of ITA.

The motor is now out of the car and the sucka is being worked. The heads look pretty good and are hi perf according to those who know better than I. The illness is being cured with a hearty medicinal dose of checkbook, or shall we say credit card since its the holidays?

Many new shizzle parts will be under the tree including new flowed injectors, intake gizmos and other engineering acts of wizardry. I will have a gorgeous outcast of financial pain.

But it will be fast.......then maybe the cage......

fieroguy19
12-27-2006, 11:20 PM
Have you checked out this site? This guy is in the CA region and I have seen him run on two different occasions in MI and KS. http://racer.net/itafiero/

I am hoping to build an 88 Fiero for ITA in the near future. First, I have to find a good donor car.

dominojd
12-28-2006, 03:56 AM
OK - the latest Fiero update must be delivered, especially since Herr Bettencourt was telling me I must Sig Heil to the shizzle of ITA.

The motor is now out of the car and the sucka is being worked. The heads look pretty good and are hi perf according to those who know better than I. The illness is being cured with a hearty medicinal dose of checkbook, or shall we say credit card since its the holidays?

Many new shizzle parts will be under the tree including new flowed injectors, intake gizmos and other engineering acts of wizardry. I will have a gorgeous outcast of financial pain.

But it will be fast.......then maybe the cage......
[/b]

Damn ben you got sucked into that one. :D

latebrake
12-28-2006, 09:59 AM
Dont listen to these people Ben. be a man,spend the money and build a fast and cool car and show them what you are made of. :D You have my support. now let cover the support thing. i was talking about moral support and not cash, you know that right :P
Lawrence

JamesB
12-28-2006, 10:22 AM
wow, I have to say I am mildly surprised you made the plunge after putting the project on blocks. I guess if anything you will at least have a quick street car to sell.

Good luck in the indevors, let us know how all that shiny engine parts worked out for you.

benspeed
12-28-2006, 12:22 PM
Joe - I did get sucked in. Couldn't leave a sick car alone and won't sell it sick to some poor sucker.

Checked out Alans ITA Fiero site and he had some nice races - seemed like the car was handling well with very little of the dreaded understeer and was down only a bit on power. His car dyno sheets showed it at 125 ish for HP and my goal is 130 or better. My motor should be a very nice competition engine when it's finished. Not sure the exhaust will be at the top level it needs to be at but at least the headers are very nice.

Definitely a fun project so far and the parts a pretty cheap for these little scooters. When this thing is done I'll post up some dyno numbers.

What do the Integras put out for power? Mid pack and front runner estimates? Or better yet what do folks think this car needs to be at for it to run up front? Unlimited budget and all that....

DavidM
12-28-2006, 01:57 PM
Depending on who you talk to, 150-155 to the wheels for an Integra is possible. I'm sure the more informed will chime in.

Of course, some people say the 240 can make over 150. I'd like to see that dyno sheet.

David

88YB1
12-28-2006, 09:09 PM
Ben, That was an old data sheet on Alan's car. He did a fresh build last year (05) and added a custom exhust header. He managed to get it up to 140rwhp. It can be done with a 10/10ths build. Unfortunately employment issues kept him sidelined for the 06 season. Alan is a very good driver and has been playing with Fieros for several years. He even managed to set a couple track records with his Fiero back in the day.

Chuck

benspeed
12-29-2006, 12:55 PM
Now that is encouraging! 140 hp would make this a competitive car to pass.

Chuck - are you running camber plates on the rear shock towers? If so, what are you using?

PS - I heard Lawrence was doing a joint venture private equity investment in my project....

latebrake
12-29-2006, 03:06 PM
Now that is encouraging! 140 hp would make this a competitive car to pass.

Chuck - are you running camber plates on the rear shock towers? If so, what are you using?

PS - I heard Lawrence was doing a joint venture private equity investment in my project....


[/b]

What Lawrence were you talking about Ben??? Am i going to have to start working nights. you know naked and all that? :unsure:

Lawrence T

lateapex911
12-29-2006, 05:25 PM
Fieros? late nights? naked? Did we really have to go there??

JeffYoung
12-30-2006, 09:04 AM
Jake, Fieros certainly make me HOT.

benspeed
12-30-2006, 10:40 AM
They call him Duece "Lawrence" Bigalow - banging for speed is his motto. ;)

88YB1
01-02-2007, 04:08 PM
No Ben I am not running camber plates. The factory adjustment allows for plenty of adjustment travel. Some of the guys have slotted the upper mount holes while others have added plates. I won't even consider plates until I get the setup very close. Then if needed install camber plates to allow quick alignment changes between tracks.

Chuck

benspeed
01-26-2007, 02:51 PM
Well, after about 5 weeks at the shop the Fiero is back home. Wallet is lighter and the car is faster - LOTS faster. I think the term we like is "snotty". This ended up being a full blown build.

Trip to the dyno soon.

I have nice headers on the car that are a little old and a 2 1/2" straight pipe - any trick exhaust ideas that other Fiero folks are doing? I'm looking at some of the West Coast Fiero systems but wonder if they are any better that my big pipe?

88YB1
01-26-2007, 04:01 PM
Ben, Don't waste your money on the West Coast exhaust. Hogging out the stock manifolds will yield about the same as you would get with the West Coast stuff.

Per GM race engineers
"The preferred exhaust system for racing V6/60 Chevrolet is a three into one header system for each cylinder bank. Primary pipe diameter of 1 5/8 inch OD X 26' long feeding 2 1/2 - inch diameter collectors have proven successful. Collector length ahould be a least 33 inches. If the engine operating range is above 4000 rpm, a 2 1/4-inch diameter crossover pipe between the two collectors may be beneficial. This crossover should be located at the front of the collector." GM used to produce and sell these parts. Unfortunately they are no longer available. This was taken from the Chevrolet power service manual

An alternate final drive can be found in an Oldsmobile Acheiva. Gear ratio can be changed using an Olds Achieva R&P. Changes from 3.61 to 3.94. LSDs available from Gr8Grip and Phantom-Grip. Also a shop in Marietta Ga custom makes an LSD for the Fiero. Some of the Acheivas came with a Torson. I'm not shure which model that was.

I have put an Acheiva R&P in a Fiero Getrag, but havn't put it in the car yet. My reasoning for building the 3.94 is due to running out of rpm in fourth gear just after turn 9 flag station at RA. That is too late to allow shifting into 5th so I stay in fourth and hold rpm. I've tried shifting, but the short time between upshifting and down shifting is actually costing me time. The 394 should let me shift a couple of car lengths sooner, and build enough speed to make the shift worthwhile. The tranny swap has been placed on the back burner as suspension in a more urgent need.

Chuck







You could use the complete tranny from the Achieva but individual gears (1 - 4) would be off.

Chuck

lateapex911
01-26-2007, 04:33 PM
And the Acheiva trans would be highly illegal, no?

shwah
01-26-2007, 05:29 PM
Certainly.

But not the ring and pinion or limited slip that he is suggesting you take from the Olds and install in the Fiero box.

iambhooper
01-27-2007, 01:42 PM
If the Achieva tranny is the early model Getrag (i can't remember the #), and the same one that was used in the Corsica and Berreta, then it is the same 5spd used with the V6 Fiero's. There were 2 difference's between the Corsica tranny and the Fiero's, the speedo pick up is magnetic in the Corsica and mechanical in the fiero (easily swapped over) and the attaching bracket's for the cables were slightly different.

I made this change on my daily driver many years ago, after detonating the Fiero tranny. It's possible that the fork might have been different, but I'm not certain. Otherwise, the tranny was the same model, casting, gearing (well, he did mention the final drive being different), ect.

hoop

88YB1
01-27-2007, 02:19 PM
Hoop
It's the same tranny, however the Acheiva uses different gearing therefore it would be illegal to use in the Fiero. The case, shafts, and bearings are the same. It would make a good core if something happened to your Fiero Getrag. The bell houising is different also. The Acheiva uses an internal slave cylinder. It will bolt up to the Fiero engine, but the hydraulics would be all wrong.

Ben,
Found the info on the LSD shop here in Georgia. Engineered Performance Ph 770-528-3882 www.engineered.net/eplsd.htm Available in either a street or race model.

Chuck

iambhooper
01-27-2007, 04:45 PM
Ok, then that's the 2nd generation of the Muncie Getrag. Correct, the internal slave cylinder model isn't the same.... I had forgot about that one. Some people have modified it to work with some ofthe 3800SC street conversions, and possibly a few V-8's.

hoop

benspeed
01-28-2007, 12:45 AM
Ben,
Found the info on the LSD shop here in Georgia. Engineered Performance Ph 770-528-3882 www.engineered.net/eplsd.htm Available in either a street or race model.

Chuck
[/quote]

Thanks - that is worth a call. What should a good LSD run?

I fooled around with the welder today and created a high perf street exhaust - at least I can drive it around without setting off car alarms now.

After driving the car a little I can tell its got some good power potential. It was 20 degrees outside today - nothing more fun than setting up a car in a warm shop.

88YB1
01-28-2007, 08:03 PM
Hoop, The Fiero guys who use the Acheiva Getrag swap the Fiero bellhousing onto the Acheiva tranny. They do a simular thing when mounting a Getrag to the Quad Four.

Ben, I have no idea what a LSD woulfd cost for a Fiero. Until I changed to softer rear spriings I expierenced no rear weel slip. After installing 275lb rear springs I had inside wheel spin at Nashvile and Road Atlanta. Since I also had bottoming issues at RA I am going to work with springs and swaybars first. I have aquires a set of 300, 325, and 350 pound springs. I will work through these then fine tune with spring rubbers. When I find the softest spring without bottoming I will increase the rear swaybar to control body roll. If I still have wheel spin at that point I will install a LSD.
During your engine build be sure to port the intake and exhaust to the limit. What ever you DO NOT remove the vane in the intake ports as this will kill power. The Fiero came with a true "Cold Air" intake. which has very little restriction. The only area for some improvement it the rain catch box located in the left rear wheel well.
Remove the box and fab tubing to replace it. I used a couple pieces of articulating dryer duct from Home Depot. You wont see much gain, but every little bit helps.

Chuck

benspeed
01-29-2007, 11:44 AM
Hi Chuck - sent you a PM.

I put a cold air intake with a long tube all the way to the air intake port - kinda cool - you can hear that thing drawing air while you drive - maybe another hp there. This hiss at idle scares children and pets.

The motor shop did all they could per the GCR. I need to find a new dyno guy since my regular dyno guy is shut down for the rest of the winter - he's got an outside trailerable dynojet.

If anybody has a dyno shop near Northern NJ that's noted for quality timing, A/F tuning please post.

Put a call into the LSD shop and left a VM - I'll post what I learn. I will put my $$ into the suspension bits first before an LSD.

Some of the feedback I've been getting from Koni is 400 lbs springs on these cars in the rear - 400-500 for the front. I haven't found anything on the web from racers running these spring rates so I'm not sure what to make of that info. Also not sure my Koni reds are where I want to be - shit you can buy new stuff for the cost of the re-valve on these. (No JRZ shocks at $800 per revalve for the set every 8-10 races - been there done that. ) I have coil overs and 10 inch 400 lb springs for the rear off another car that I want to use and plan on buying 400 lb spring for the front - but I'm keen to get any feedback on this setup. Are the KYB shocks worth considering? Price too good to be true...

PS - the stock car is nearly ready too - clutch conversion to 7.25 disks nearly done. New tires mounted and ready to burn rubber.

latebrake
01-29-2007, 12:16 PM
I think there are a lot of non-metal body parts on these cars. is there any need/help to dip one or is it gong to melt the car away? i am lazy and did the sound/weight removal the hard way once and swore it would never happen again.

Lawrence

benspeed
04-25-2007, 04:21 PM
OK Folks - the ITA Fiero project is moving into the final phase. The third custom exhaust is now on its way to me - we think this will get us to the magic dyno number that triggers the cage installation. All other parts are assembled and ready. Is there an outstanding chassis guy in the NJ/NY area who is familiar with these cars that y'all might suggest I do the final setup with?

Car was over 140 HP at the wheels last trip to the dyno with some A/F fiddling and lots of debate amongst engineers wiser than I. They have it a little lean which will bear watching. Much chip fiddling. Much cash flowing....

I wont post the torque - HAHAHAHAHAHA! It is sick.

Stock car is shined and ready for Summit Point this weekend - can't wait to hit the track.

iambhooper
04-25-2007, 05:30 PM
You need to get that thing finished and bring it down to VIR for the double in 2 weeks. I'm dieing to see the results of this car. Whose exhaust have you tried (or have you made all of them)?

as for suspensions... Kickhill Fieros in Lebanon, Ct might be able to point you in a direction of someone to help with setup. http://www.kickhill.com/fiero.html and then theres this http://www.waynesfieros.com/

Best of luck and keep usinformed.

JeffYoung
04-25-2007, 08:05 PM
Ben that is great work. 140 hp and more torque than 140??? Damn good. You might even crush the Egg!

JLawton
04-26-2007, 06:57 AM
You might even crush the Egg!
[/b]


It's not just about the car. ;)

benspeed
04-26-2007, 10:41 AM
Thanks for the tips for chassis setup guys - sent them some emails.

I had two exhausts made locally - one had too little back pressure and the car was blowing flame - single pipe - just backfired and not good. It was a waste of $$.

The second was a bigger single pipe with a dynoflow muffler - solved backpressure and spitting problem but just wasn't to my liking, hung way too low - but it did dyno well. I figure one curb and its gone.

This last exhaust is from a shop in Las Angeles that has experience racing Fieros - it's a dual exhaust with no muffler - 2.5 inches and I have some super trapps and mini muffler tips that I can use if it's too loud. It will have a much cleaner fit and finish - just hope it will put out the numbers. The owner of the shop liked our joint design enough that he is building one for his race car.

Sorta wish I had this ready for the Twilight Enduro at Pocono - that is going to be a serious race.

JamesB
04-26-2007, 11:31 AM
Wow man, good deal. I cant wait to see it on the track. Come find us in the woods this weekend. You cannot miss the orange glow of matts car or the lighted palm tree in our paddock.

iambhooper
04-26-2007, 06:34 PM
it wasnt Chris West, in Cali, was it? they have a lot of experience modding fiero's. one exhaust design that some people have tried is similar to the old Camero exhaust (where the pipes wrap around and fold on each other... don't know any better way to describe it). however you have to remove the trunk to allow that to fit. i wouldnt go any larger than 2.5" on any exhaust. there isnt much to route and you loose a lot off top end. did you make headers, or use existing ones?

what "joint design" are you talking about?

88YB1
04-26-2007, 08:24 PM
Ben, Those are very good power numbers. :D With the Fiero average of 18% driveline loss that would be about 165 crank HP. With a fully developed chassis you should be very competative. :eclipsee_steering:

Chuck

benspeed
05-07-2007, 03:51 PM
Well, put the new exhaust on the car and it feels like it has more torque and runs much healthier. Brought it to a different dyno - both were dynojets. I am down in the low 130's now. New exhaust is a much superior product - factory type fit. It was built by the West Coast Fiero guys. Can't see that hurting - only helping.

Anybody experience significant differences across two dynos of the same make? My regular guy was out of town and nobody could do it so I went someplace else. I'll hit the regular dyno after the Pocono race.

Any ideas?

lateapex911
05-07-2007, 05:05 PM
Simply, yes. Dynos are all over the board. Even same brands. Find a Dynapak and stick with it. (the more variables you can eliminate, the better, and the Dynapak is hub driven, and doesn't "derive" the HP via some algorithm. Get Greg Amy started on this one, and you'll never forget it, LOL. Greg, care to post a link?)

;)

zenbutcher
05-08-2007, 09:52 AM
I'm currently using some WCF shorty headers. Might switch to the equal length racing headers, but am definitely concerned about the heat generated from them, and clearance. What do you think? I don't want to melt all in the engine compartment.


Peter Baumgartner
ITA Fiero

Ron Earp
05-08-2007, 09:28 PM
Find a dyno and stick with THAT particular dyno and location.

Opinons about dynos abound. I've found through trial and error if I stick with the same dyno and location things work out better with respect to tuning and relative numbers. I could care less about the absolute figure, just the relative differences between tuning changes.

R

lateapex911
05-09-2007, 08:53 AM
ANd, to take what Ron said further, have a high degree of confidence in your operator, and their fanatical consistency. If you can always have a baseline setup, and go back to that during testing, you will be assured the dyno is consistent.

To that end, choosing a dyno that eliminates variables, like the Dynapac, will reduce the possibilities of errors. If you must use a roller inerta dyno, be sure to use the same tires, and the same pressures, as they will throw the numbers off if inconsistent. Same for diffs, transmissions and of course, the fluids within, unless you're testing lubricants. Finally, make some informed desicion regarding what you will use as your standard deviation...in other words, if the dyno can't repeat exact numbers with exactly equal conditions, how much of a difference will be needed in your readings before it is "significant" or can be attributed to the change you made?

benspeed
05-09-2007, 09:50 PM
I'll definitely be back at my regular dyno guys place to see what the deal is. Bruce is very religious in process so he keeps a very consistent setup - just as you suggest jake - I'll make sure tire are pressured the same-no other changes but the exhaust when I go back.

Does sound as if there can be some big differences across machines.




I'm currently using some WCF shorty headers. Might switch to the equal length racing headers, but am definitely concerned about the heat generated from them, and clearance. What do you think? I don't want to melt all in the engine compartment.
Peter Baumgartner
ITA Fiero
[/b]

I've got some longer tube custom headers that were built by a shop in CT for the original owner - don't remember the name. The heat is up there but nothing to be concerned about. Run the 160 thermostat to help.

shwah
05-10-2007, 09:15 AM
The Dyno-Dynamics machines are also in the 'better' group of dynos. Similar to dynapac they are true load dynos, and allow tuning at WOT at any rpm, as well as making a 'run' through the range. They do include the added variable of wheels/tires in the equation though.

I do all of my runs on a dynapac, but will be doing the initial tune of my new motor on a dyno-dynamics, because that is what the builder has. As soon as everything is done, I will go back and re-run on the same dynapac to get a comparison to my old motor.

lateapex911
05-10-2007, 12:53 PM
IIRC, Clayton dynos are another roller dyno, but with a load cel that can hold RPM for tuning.

benspeed
06-12-2007, 01:20 PM
The BigSpeed ITA Fiero is at the final dyno test and tune in the capable hands of some pretty sharp engineers. The results will be the determining factor if the cage goes in. John Weisberg will be the guy who builds it if the car dynos well.

Results will be posted - good or bad. This is being done at my regular shop where we have baseline notes, baseline on the dyno. There is a solid amount of $$ invested and this car has a 9.5/10ths effort on the motor & 10/10ths on exhaust so this should be telling for anybody considering building one of these regarding power potential.

If results are good there is a very strong chance this car will see action before the NAARC runoffs.

Since Crazy Joe needs the points I'll be sure to torment Andy so he really has to work for that championship :P

jcmotorsports
06-12-2007, 04:45 PM
Good choice on the cage builder. John built the cage in T3 S2000. He does a great job.

benspeed
06-12-2007, 07:47 PM
The numbers are in and I'm a little disappointed. These are the best runs in moderately hot and humid temps for NJ. Car was run outside.

HP - 131
TQ - 165
weight 2,600 '88 model

So - now you guys gotta let me know what ya think. I still have about $3000 to go to finish this car with about $7,000 into it. This is the press forward - damn the torpedos or, let's get realistic about the competitiveness of the car, seriously, to decide if good money goes in after bad.

I'd like some of you guys to post the performance ranges of the top ITA make/model. Be accurate too, c'mon :024:

JeffYoung
06-12-2007, 09:58 PM
Well, it is the odd ball forum so I will weigh in here...

Your car in A looks a lot like mine in S. A bit down on peak power, but gobs of torque. You have another advantage with the mid engine as well.

I suspect that your car will be like mine in this regard. On tracks with shortish straights, tighter stuff, and no real long power sections like VIR and RA, you will be VERY competitive. On other tracks, you may have some issues, but still, those numbers seem pretty good for an A car to me. Get that torque to hook up and you will find that others have a HARD time passing you.

Like K man says about the Sunbelt Z cars, they "found" a lot horsepower in handling. You will need to do the same, like all of us.

Your about the same "reported" power as Andy B's Miata, higher torque than the Egg and down a bit on power up on torque to the best 240SX numbers I've seen.

I'd build it at that point. Worse case is you have a fun to drive, unique top 5 car. With a lot of development, you can win on certain tracks I think.

iambhooper
06-13-2007, 06:47 AM
I think those are great numbers! You have to remember... the stock 135 number was at the flywheel, not the rear wheels... so that's a significant gain, through in the increased torque, and the lower weight, I think you have an interesting ride.

How does it stack up against the integra's... let's see:
a little more stock HP 140
less stock torque 126
and a weight about the same... I agree with Jeff. The shorter tracks will give this a good punch. Although, out'a Oak Tree, I would think the fiero would be a blast until Madison Ave or so!

I say Go For it! Remember, when you get the suspension hoooked up, and some Kumhos on it, it'll be a lot different.

hoop

JLawton
06-13-2007, 07:02 AM
The
HP - 131
TQ - 165
weight 2,600 '88 model

[/b]

I'll take torque over horsepower any day........ Just stay away from Pocono!! :D

Go for it!!

Andy Bettencourt
06-13-2007, 07:43 AM
I'll take torque over horsepower any day........ Just stay away from Pocono!! :D

Go for it!! [/b]

All that without any 'real' ECU tuning...I would build it. Come on Ben, 23 cars in ITA at LRP this weekend....

benspeed
06-13-2007, 08:46 AM
Awright - a good nights sleep and some words of encouragement - let the cash flow!!!!

I'm putting in the cage and we'll race this plastic disco box.

Andy - your are correct sir. The last thing for any real gain is a major chip mapping ecu tuning exercise that I have been warned isn't cheap. But that can wait. I'm sick of building and want to race against a big field. I think I'm it this weekend in SPO. Gee, I won already....

Thanks guys

PS - throw down some additional stats on the competition. I think the Saturn makes what 152HP? How about the Nissan SE-R? How about the BMW 318IS?

Doc Bro
06-13-2007, 09:02 AM
Ben, I can give you the skinny on my Z3 (M44) which is the same as the 318is powerplant wise.

135hp (dynopak)136 tq. Kessler built motor, 3 different header configurations- 2 custom. Chipped ECU. Blah, blah, blah....you know the "IT" package.

The 318/z3 are no threat at 2600.

Build it!! I'd eat yellow snow for 165 tq

RussJones
06-13-2007, 10:03 AM
What the hell Ben, you've been missing the IT game since you left. Welcome back.

Russ

Andy Bettencourt
06-13-2007, 04:03 PM
We DO need to get some of our cars to a dyno day together. 135/136 or 131/165 on a Dynapak is supposed to be quite higher on a DynoJet. By as much as 13% (give or take) as reported in this thread from 4 months ago. (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10451&hl=dynos) Conservative estimates could have the V6 at 144whp on a DynoJet. That Z3 has REAL good power...over 145 on a DJ? It's all smoke and mirrors until we do a dyno day.

At the end of the year, lets do it! I don't care what kind of dyno we use. I will pull to CT to do it. I want the NX there, the Saturn, the Z3, the Fiero and a big-time Teg. THEN we will be able to REALLY bench race!!!

benspeed
06-13-2007, 05:24 PM
I'm all in for that - my car was done on a Dynojet. Lowest HP gets to claim the top HP car?

I spent my day calling any Fiero shops with knowledge on what is left to tune this sucka - no luck finding anybody who can do anything legal.

Nobody who can flash a chip, nobody who can tell me how to lean it out a little for some extra top end.

I figure I'll have some great green flag starts and and then make my car REALLY wide.

iambhooper
06-13-2007, 07:49 PM
Ben, glad your going through with it... I've been watching with grat optimism!

As for the chip, let me look around. I might still have a conection here or there who can do it. I had a guy on the west coast do my 3400 DOHC Fiero several years ago.

hoop

JLawton
06-14-2007, 06:47 AM
Nobody who can flash a chip, nobody who can tell me how to lean it out a little for some extra top end.

I figure I'll have some great green flag starts and and then make my car REALLY wide.
[/b]

You should talk to the guy Greg uses for his ECU. He's not a Fiero expert but he knows his ECUs.....


You and Crazy Joe will be using the same tactic on the starts!! :eclipsee_steering:

benspeed
06-14-2007, 08:09 AM
Thanks Hoop - figure I'll try to have this thing ready for the NARRC runoffs this year. Maybe sooner depending on the cage.

Jeff - what kind of numbers is Crazy Joe laying down? I don't think he hits the site as regularly as us online addicts.

Doc Bro
06-14-2007, 09:31 AM
We DO need to get some of our cars to a dyno day together. 135/136 or 131/165 on a Dynapak is supposed to be quite higher on a DynoJet. By as much as 13% (give or take) as reported in this thread from 4 months ago. (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10451&hl=dynos) Conservative estimates could have the V6 at 144whp on a DynoJet. That Z3 has REAL good power...over 145 on a DJ? It's all smoke and mirrors until we do a dyno day.

At the end of the year, lets do it! I don't care what kind of dyno we use. I will pull to CT to do it. I want the NX there, the Saturn, the Z3, the Fiero and a big-time Teg. THEN we will be able to REALLY bench race!!!
[/b]



AB if you say the Z3 is making real good power than what's the NX making??? Stupid power?? We use the SAME dyno shop. And he's putting 156 tq down. What dyno are you getting your Miata's 145hp figure from? DPAck or Djet?


R

Andy Bettencourt
06-14-2007, 11:04 AM
AB if you say the Z3 is making real good power than what's the NX making??? Stupid power?? We use the SAME dyno shop. And he's putting 156 tq down. What dyno are you getting your Miata's 145hp figure from? DPAck or Djet?


R [/b]

I love how my HP figure grows...140.7 whp on a DynoJet. I could make it read 130 or 150 depending on tons of fudge factors but we used the standard one. The NX is the king of the hill in ITA no doubt...that is why we get them all together on the same dyno so we can really go apples to apples. Local 240SX's have gone 150/155 on a DynoJet too - but they only run for a session or two! It could be fun! We can have Greg set it up.

Doc Bro
06-14-2007, 11:14 AM
Andy,

Not trying to exaggerate. Sorry, Bud. I thought that number came directly from you, directly to me at NHIS. If I remember the conversation wrong I apologize. But still, Miata 139.7 (140 :D ) at 2380lbs vs a projected 145 (Z3) at 2600???

I do remember what you were wearing when you said it though..... :023:


R

Andy Bettencourt
06-14-2007, 12:36 PM
This is why we need to get to the same location. If you use a conservative figure of 10% (guys post shows 13%) figure then here is where you and Greg could sit:

Greg's 154hp on a DP could be 169 on a DJ.

Greg's 143ft/lbs on a DP could be 157 on a DJ.

Your 135hp on a DP could be 149 on a DJ.

Your 135ft/lbs could be 149 on a DJ.

Some math for you: Z3 2600/149hp = 17.45 2600/149ft/lbs - 17.45

1.8 Miata 2380/140 = 17.0 2380/130ft/lbs = 18.31

But it's all ficticious until we share dyno time. Oh ya, you don't have a fully programmable ECU yet right? Greg's and my numbers are based on having that so you stand to gain more as development comes.

Doc Bro
06-14-2007, 01:08 PM
Andy,
While I agree with some of the things you've posted 100%, you haven't stated how YOUR number was achieved. Are we to assume DJ,? Until you say so I say no. Will you post the sheet?

Secondly, if an engine is an airpump and it comes from the factory ALMOST fully optimized than it's naive at best to think that the gains other less optimized engines have seen will apply universally. Kessler's computer projection based on CC's, combustion chamber size and all the other inputs he used to do his calculations put the motor at EXACTLY where it dynos. Coincidence....???

Thirdly, you didn't do the NX math.

Fourthly, how come your original post said 139.7 then was edited to say 140.7hp for your car? Did you really forget you cars HP #?

Fifthly, When we do our dyno day and the Miata pulls a 145 and the Z3 pulls a 138 and teh NX 150 and a teg 165, will we be adjusting the weights officially of all cars accordingly and immediately. IF no then count me out of the "Dyno Day" my time's too valuable for science projects. If yes then let's do it before the season ends so we can get to brass tacks and I can remove my ballast.

Dude, you know I respect you and consider you a friend but, you just gotta call a spade a spade. Why does a competitor NEED to spell out every detail of their development process to be taken seriously. You know Matt....enough said. The car's #'s are what they are and no Motec- shmotec is going to give it Greg's dyno sheet. Andy, you're too smart for that....and so am I.


R

zenbutcher
06-14-2007, 03:01 PM
Ben,

Do it! This car is fun. I just came from a GP Midget, and my Fiero is as fun to drive.

I've only been out 2 x's so I'm slow as heck, and working out the kinks(busted rear outer ball joint last weekend).....but after I get passed by another ITA car I'll jump on mine and it'll hang with them. The torque is great.

So for me it's a matter of seat time and setting up the handling better. Need a better diff ratio, etc.

Peter B.
ITA Fiero GT

Andy Bettencourt
06-14-2007, 03:15 PM
Andy,
While I agree with some of the things you've posted 100%, you haven't stated how YOUR number was achieved. Are we to assume DJ,? Until you say so I say no. Will you post the sheet? [/b] Said it 4 posts above. DYNOJET.


Secondly, if an engine is an airpump and it comes from the factory ALMOST fully optimized than it's naive at best to think that the gains other less optimized engines have seen will apply universally. Kessler's computer projection based on CC's, combustion chamber size and all the other inputs he used to do his calculations put the motor at EXACTLY where it dynos. Coincidence....??? [/b]

I don't think anyone stated that all motors can make the same gains. They can't. You are at a good hp/torque number now without ECU tuning. Unless your A/F ratios are perfect across the board, then you still have work to do. Did you test different fuels? Fuel pressures? A/F ratios? If you want to class everyone by computer model, then we can run some of those numbers! It would make for some interesting comparisons for sure.


Thirdly, you didn't do the NX math.[/b]

The NX is certainly a powerhouse. Since it's FWD, it is tough to compare because it gets additional 'allowances' in minimum weight for that. It has it's strengths for sure.


Fourthly, how come your original post said 139.7 then was edited to say 140.7hp for your car? Did you really forget you cars HP #?[/b]

I did. I went to my sheets and corrected it. It was corrected as you were posting. I ahve gone to the dyno 4 times in the past 9 months trying to find every extra hp.


Fifthly, When we do our dyno day and the Miata pulls a 145 and the Z3 pulls a 138 and teh NX 150 and a teg 165, will we be adjusting the weights officially of all cars accordingly and immediately. IF no then count me out of the "Dyno Day" my time's too valuable for science projects. If yes then let's do it before the season ends so we can get to brass tacks and I can remove my ballast. [/b]

Of course not. To me, the value to you will be a real comparison. I told Kessler my numbers once and he was impressed - UNTIL he found out it was a Dynojet. Said he bet it was high 120's on a DynaPak. That seems in line with the conversion factors. If you are pulling 135 on a Pak, I guarantee you are well above 145 on a Jet.


Dude, you know I respect you and consider you a friend but, you just gotta call a spade a spade. Why does a competitor NEED to spell out every detail of their development process to be taken seriously. You know Matt....enough said. The car's #'s are what they are and no Motec- shmotec is going to give it Greg's dyno sheet. Andy, you're too smart for that....and so am I.[/b]

In order to compare apples to apples, you have to know the prep level. Why should you get to 'claim' you are overweight using HP numbers that aren't optimized. Pre-programmable computer, I was making 133whp and 121ft/lbs. Should we run the math on that?

Nobody is claiming that you can - or should get to Greg's numbers. Each car will have it's strengths and weaknesses, and some will be better than others in the grand scheme. We have always stated that the cream will rise to the top because the 'process' can never be perfect.

I tend to look at cars and their strengths/weaknesses to determine if it's a viable candidate even if it has gone through the process. Ben's Fiero is a good example. Most people dismiss it. I look to Greg's effort as an obviously successful one. You can mitigate handling woes in IT prep if you have the power. I think the Fiero has the potential to be another 'NX2000' - meaning if you can get it out front and it will be hard to pass. I think you have a car with the potential to do 'everything well but nothing great'. Not a bad deal to have in an area where you have different tracks. And remember, your benchmark is the ARRC winner - every week - that is tough! I guarantee you that once you get the suspension dialed in, there are Regions in this country where you would be winning every weekend.
Greg's car aside, I think you would be very surprised to see how your car stacked up against my car on the same dyno.

dominojd
06-14-2007, 08:16 PM
Jeff - what kind of numbers is Crazy Joe laying down? I don't think he hits the site as regularly as us online addicts.
[/b]

No I work for a living. :P

If I had numbers on the car I would let you know. Haven't even dynoed it since the new motor went in last year. I am assuming now that I am running the same ECU and header/exhaust combo as the Mayor of IT (Greg). I would assume the numbers would be pretty damn close to his. If not he must be a cheatin bastard. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Love ya greggy poo

JLawton
06-15-2007, 05:29 AM
I am assuming now that I am running the same ECU and header/exhaust combo as the Mayor of IT (Greg). I would assume the numbers would be pretty damn close to his. [/b]


Joe,
Just cause you took your motor to Billy Bob's machine shop doesn't mean you're getting the same power as a Kessler engine. Having run with both of you (way too much...), you need to get off Fantasy Island!!

Or maybe you just suck!!! ;)

benspeed
06-15-2007, 09:22 AM
DANM - can't wait to watch the Joe/Jeff battle this weekend!

If I was a politician I'd be called the biggest flip flopper in the election to race ITA. The emprical rational side of my brain continues to tell me to dump this car recognizing that it has a very serious motor effort done and it isn't making the numbers to win. It is fat at 2600 pds. It has one of the crappiest suspensions under it produced.

Talked to several builders about the car - every single one of them said "turn back!" You are throwing good money after bad.

A great analogy was that my buds here online would be the same guys telling me at 2AM to go hit on the fat chick at the bar.......

JeffYoung
06-15-2007, 10:35 AM
If I recall correctly, a lot of people told Greg the same thing about the NX.

Your power numbers are close to where they need to be (admittedly down some, but not much and there is still ECU tuning to do), and 5-10 hp is probably not going to make the difference once you max out the suspension program and get close to the front. You may have class leading torque and this is not to be underestimated. You've got good aero, and a good basis for handling (mid-engine). I don't know much about the suspension, but can't see how it could be much worse in stock form than a 1st Gen RX7, and those can be made to handle just fine. So too could your car, I am sure.

What I have learned in my 3+ years of developing an oddball is that you will not be fast out of the box. There will be MANY, MANY times you want to quit when things repeatedly go wrong. YOu will have to create solutions for problems that are solved by the off shelf kits on other cars. You will have people laugh at your efforts, and tell you to buy [car of the day] and race it.

It sure is fun though when everything you built yourself starts working and you start beating some of those folks.

Just looking at your numbers, again, you put that car on a tighter course with straights that top in the 100 to 115 mph range and it could be a winner. Down here, we have two tracks like that CMP and Barber, don't know what you have your way, but a torque monster at those types of places places can give low torque cars fits.

Gary L
06-15-2007, 05:45 PM
If I was a politician I'd be called the biggest flip flopper in the election to race ITA. The emprical rational side of my brain continues to tell me to dump this car recognizing that it has a very serious motor effort done and it isn't making the numbers to win. It is fat at 2600 pds. It has one of the crappiest suspensions under it produced.

Talked to several builders about the car - every single one of them said "turn back!" You are throwing good money after bad.

A great analogy was that my buds here online would be the same guys telling me at 2AM to go hit on the fat chick at the bar....... [/b] I think you are listening too much to the "turn back" crowd. I agree with Jeff... IMO, on the right courses, this car absolutely has the potential to be a winner in ITA. I'm not sure it doesn't have the same potential on any course, but that's probably dependent upon some more engine development. In any case, you may have read this before, but I feel I have to repeat the story of what I accomplished at Hallett with my '88 GT daily driver.

The car has about 65k miles and I've owned it since new, so I know exactly what's stock and what isn't. We ran the car in 2004 at a few Hallett HST events with the following changes from stock:

- 15x7 Kosei (14 lb) wheels

- Used (many cycles) R3S04 205/50-15's all around

- A/C compressor and condensor removed

- Muffler removed (catalytic converter still intact)

- Orange (single adjustable) Koni's all around

- Chopped stock springs

That's it. No other tricks whatsoever... the engine has never been out of the car, in fact the valve covers have never been off the engine. No changes to the stock ECU or any of the related components or sensors. No real suspension development, it still has the stock bushings in place and stock front and rear anti-roll bars. With my 190 lb butt in the car, it weighed 2900. That's right... Two thousand nine hundred pounds. At the last event I ran (at 90+ F ambient temp), when traffic allowed, we ran consistent low 1:34's and an occasional high 1:33 on those worn out Hoosiers. That's just about 3 1/2 seconds above the ITA record, held by none other than Bob Stretch.

Stock engine, skinny tires, 300 pounds over minimum weight, 3 1/2 seconds from the lap record. Don't tell me this car doesn't have potential. :018:

I simply couldn't bring myself to rip and strip what amounts to a very pristine example of the '88 GT, so I spent the better part of a year looking for a prepped '88 ITA car, or a suitably inexpensive donor. Didn't find one, and in the meanwhile, along came this ITB Volvo ready to race... :D

m33mcg
06-15-2007, 11:39 PM
I went back and found one of offical grid sheets for Hallet. On 4-14-02 Bob in the 240sx ran a 1:29.86 at Hallet. Fastest time in group 1. The second fastest time was Arron Kelley in his ITS 200sx with a time of 1:32.96 With times in the 1:31- 1:33 (at Hallet)with limited prep is worth taking a look at.

I think my 944 project might change :bash_1_: into the fiero project. Just love Hallet :eclipsee_steering: . Any one looking to trade a fiero for a 944?

Gary L
06-16-2007, 10:04 AM
The current race lap record (AVRG apparently doesn't track/recognize qualifying records) in ITA is still Bob S. at 1:30.393, set last summer in his Miata. The race lap record at the time I was running the Fiero was also Bob's at 1:30.5 or so, but it was done in the Nissan.

As an aside, the current record will not last much longer, thanks to some repaving work done this past winter; the first truly quick ITA car that shows up is probably headed for the low 1:29's, at least. As an example, during the SCCA race weekend a couple of months ago, 4 or 5 SM cars went under the old class record of 1:31.1, they now have a 1:30.056 to shoot at. There were 3 or 4 other well established class records broken that weekend as well (including ITB, thank you very much :P ), and this was on a green (rain-washed) track.

m33mcg
06-16-2007, 02:54 PM
I still believe your 1:30-1:33 time on used tires and limited prep is impressive. The second fastest ITA time was a crx at 1:37.80 that day. On a short track like Hallet a well developed Fiero would be strong. After sleeping on it, I decided to switch builds. I see more options with the Fiero and would be cheeper than the 944. The fastest 944 that day was 1:38.68

JLawton
06-17-2007, 06:15 AM
A great analogy was that my buds here online would be the same guys telling me at 2AM to go hit on the fat chick at the bar.......
[/b]


And the problem with that is???.............

benspeed
06-18-2007, 10:12 AM
So I spoke with a bunch of folks at LRP and many guys I respect a lot are still strongly believing this car can be a contender.

I spent some time yesterday running the car on my skidpad again with an accelerometer/g-force gizmo and compared it to my buds ZO6. Numbers were very good.

Looks like a programmable ECU upgrade and maybe a new set of headers to even up the HP and TQ. The project will move foreward - sticking with it. Watching the ITA race made me hungry.

Andy - I'm calling you for more info on the ECU stuff. Nice job winning the A race albeit a shortened one.



And the problem with that is???.............
[/b]

My hot blonde Swedish wife would beat the crap out of the fat chick ;)

lateapex911
06-18-2007, 01:25 PM
Ben, Ben, Ben....that last line...there is SO much I could do with that. But I like you, and this isn't THAT kind of forum... ;)

You have a skidpad!? jeez...I can't even start my car without receiving another heaping of hate from my neighbors!.....

JLawton
06-18-2007, 04:21 PM
You have a skidpad!? [/b]


Forget the group dyno session, let's all go to Ben's for the day for some suspension tuning!!

dominojd
06-18-2007, 06:31 PM
DANM - can't wait to watch the Joe/Jeff battle this weekend!

[/b]

Wasn't much of a battle. :P



Joe,
Just cause you took your motor to Billy Bob's machine shop doesn't mean you're getting the same power as a Kessler engine. Having run with both of you (way too much...), you need to get off Fantasy Island!!

Or maybe you just suck!!! ;)
[/b]

Shit Billy Bob has been building engines longer than Kesslar has been alive. :P

So what if I suck, What's it to you? :D

iambhooper
06-18-2007, 07:34 PM
Ben... a skid pad, that's too much! I agree with Jake... my yuppie @$$#0!& neighbors happiest day in 3 years, was the day I moved the car to the shop permenately.

Sometimes, I dream of getting a new toy just to get under their skin :D

hoop

p.s.
i'm still trying to dig up my ecu connections.

ScotMac
07-04-2007, 01:30 PM
In the vein of the original intent of this thread, i have just picked up a ITB fiero (2.5l duke) and am going to be racing it in NWRegion and SanFranRegion. Just finished class and have 1st novice race July 13-15.

Would love to know what people have done to successfully allow the car to beat the VW's and Volvo's in ITB.

It appears that the most success was acheived by Michael Braidman in the indiana region (ITB track record, beat all but one *ITA* car, "road racer of the year" for indiana region). Does anyone know how to contact him, or what he has done to the car?

I have a bit of body roll (and associated fender rub) and am looking at upgrading the shocks. Any suggestions? The koni's look too expensive, but the kyb's look nice (look under suspension->shocks here (http://www.fierostore.com)).

Is a gas or knob adjustable shock recommended? I actually really like the qa1 double adjustables (knob)...but talk about expensive. Has anyone used them on a fiero?

Thanks, -Scot

shwah
07-05-2007, 08:15 AM
As far as I know Braidman has only raced with us that one time, so I really don't know much about him or his setup. I hear that he normally ran with Midwest council. I know that he had some non-racing issues that kept him from the track for most of 2006.

I have had a few people that I told about that race swear that his car must have legality issues to be that much faster than the previous Blackhawk record (1+ second drop), but I am not willing to buy that without knowing more about the car and driver. As far as I am concerned he just had a well prepped car, that he knew how to drive well, on a day with fantastically fast conditions. I mean the 2nd place VW was just under the previous lap record, and I was a few tenths off with a less than full effort car.

If I bump into him again I will ask him if he can share some fast 4cyl Fiero knowledge with you guys.

ScotMac
07-05-2007, 02:52 PM
Hey, just what we need one of those fast VW guys listening to steal our fiero secrets!! :bash_1_: ;)

Yes, please bombard Michael w/ whatever questions you can think of. I am surprised you said that he had not been racing for 2006...2006 was the year i was quoting when i said he won "road racer of the year":

http://www.inr-scca.org/roadrace.php

Guess that one race was enough for voting of "rr of the year"!!! ;)

-Scot :D

shwah
07-05-2007, 04:04 PM
I only saw him up our way once that year. Well duh - I guess I forgot about the CenDiv split into GL Div and CenDiv. He is in the former, so we probably won't see him too often.

I also want to clarify what I said in my post above - I in no way think his car was illegal. I was fast and well driven. With that day's conditions, it was just so fast that some folks that were not there were amazed that a Fiero was lapping so quickly in ITB trim.

If I bump into him, I will try to steer him to this forum so you folks can build more fast Fieros. More fast cars is more better IMO.

Andy Bettencourt
07-10-2007, 12:11 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1985-Pontia...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1985-Pontiac-Fiero-SCCA-ITA-race-car_W0QQitemZ230149095448QQihZ013QQcategoryZ98064Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

88YB1
07-10-2007, 01:14 PM
Run from the garage screaming! If this guy spent 10K on this car he got shafted. Just from the photos you can see 1. passenger door bars do not intrude yet inner panel is missing. 2. Builder did not take advantage of removing the rear glass and welding cage to strut towers then install plexiglass rear window. Gets rid of a lot of weight. The panel that the rear tubes are welded to is not structural. It is thin sheet metal. 3. Stock strut towers. Rules permit slotting the mount holes to allow camber adjustment. 4. Race tires mounted on HEAVY HEAVY stock rims. 5. Does one put a boat load of money in an engine build and not paint the engine?

I'm in my third year of building and tuning, and I'm no way near 10K.

Chuck

JeffYoung
07-10-2007, 02:12 PM
Short shifter....Holley intake.....cool car, but it does make one wonder.

Ron Earp
07-10-2007, 03:37 PM
Awesome looking IT cars, build that thing Ben!

R

benspeed
07-10-2007, 03:57 PM
I am absolutely with Chuck on that car - so many obvious things not done right. Jeez - ya might clean it up a little before taking the pics.

My car is slowly coming along. Saving up my pennies for a programmable ECM - Chuck gave me the point in the right direction on the way to go. I still have about $3K to go and that $ was sucked up by my SPO "incident" at Pocono - unfunny, it was exactly $3K in damages.

These Fiero GTs are really cool. Can't wait to put an AMERICAN ITA car on the podium.

iambhooper
07-11-2007, 06:23 PM
I'm not going to totally knock the guy... cause I actually think the car looks nice for the money ($4000). The cage looks similar to the one that was in my Fiat X1/9, which was duplicated from the "how to build a fiat race car book" from the early '80's.

As for the slotted camber plates, that might be a bit tricky on the early cars... seems to me, the strut tower's were tight enough with the springs and struts in them, cant be certain. The short shifter has to go, although that is a stupid rule.

Ben, sorry I haven't been able to get in touch with any of my old Fiero Programers. You need to hury up with that project... I'm getting the itch, and would hate to thik I made a mistake in buying or building another Honda :D

hoop

Swampwing
07-25-2007, 01:58 PM
I am running an 88 Formula in the Florida region and feel like I am finally getting to the point of being able to enjoy the car. I built this car from a street car and have run it 5 weekends over the past year and a half or so. This is my first GM (after 20+- Mopars and a couple off brands) so it is like learning all over again and it has been a school of hard knocks. I am working on engine number 4 after splitting a crank in 3 pieces (wrong flywheel), breaking 2 main caps, and destroying most of the main bearings on the first 3.

This engine has been fully balanced, blueprinted, bored and other things my machinist tells me are required on all out race engines. The amazing thing is I have not lost any rod bearings so I know oil is getting through the crank. I now have enough seat time that I am finally learning the unique handling of the car and am trying to get quicker. In spite of all my issues the car has finished all the races and enduros it has entered and always drove onto the trailer except for the obvious crank break which occurred in a practice session.

I have been reading a lot on other forums regarding springs, sway bars, and general setup and have come to the conclusion that these cars seem to have more of a personal preference setup rather than a "standard" setup.

benspeed
07-30-2007, 03:02 PM
Way to go! I'm hoping to update my Fiero with some of the 88 components since the car is now on the same spec line as the 88. Looks like some debate on what can/can't be swapped though.

I'm going to wait until some of the dust settles before I start making any changes to the car that might end up being reversed if the rules change back. (Which I don't think would happen but better to be patient and wait and see.)

benspeed
10-05-2007, 02:28 PM
Hate to say it but I'm selling the Fiero - just had too much fun running big bore and I gotta put my total focus on one car. Somebody put this American mid-engine car in competition!

I look at my old posts on this project and its a downer to see it go.

Here's the ad.

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...showtopic=12993 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12993)

Cheers and good luck to all fellow Fiero drivers!