Horrible Brakes

[backformore]

As we dive into the winter rebuild of the Scirocco, one of the issues to address is the terrible brakes.

The pedal had LOTS of travel and no feel. Not very confidence inspiring.

I've looked at some general posts in the Tech section, but wanted any VW specific insight I could get. Any suggestions on where to start looking?

Someone mentioned that the rear shoes might need adjusting. I believe these are self adjusting. The parking brake has been removed. Would this make a difference? If they need manual adjusting, how?

Thanks in advance for the help. I'm trying to gather all the data that I can before we start buying parts and reassembling.

[JLawton]

On an ITB/ITC VW, you don't need no stinkin' brakes!!

The only reason Rabbits and Scirocco's have rear wheels is to hold the gas tank off the road!! So you really don't need back brakes!!


All kidding aside,

Every season I would replace calipers, rotors and all the drum parts, whether they look like they needed it or not. They're cheap enough so it should be part of the regular PMs. Self adjusting rears?? Wouldn't bank on it! I would always check and adjust them myself.

I assume you checked the obvious: Leaks, pads, binding calipers. On my VW, I would replace the front pads when they got just below 1/2 way. Didn't like the way the pedal felt after that. How old is the master cylinder? My guess is it's that..........

Also, look at your brake bleeding technique.

But there are guys here that have been racing VW's longer than I've been alive (how old are you Bill Miller?? :P ) Hopefully they will pipe in!!

[67ITB]

I used to complain about the brakes every time I get in/out of the car, and finally I just gave up. But some of the things I have done

On the rear I use a "hook tool" or cotter pin remover and manually adjust the self adjusting wedges. I give it a good pull down before most sessions. I had cut the backing plates to make access easier. This gives the pedal a little bit better feel. The car actually stops well, it just does not feel as good as I would like. But the brakes stay strong throughout the race. So I have stopped complaining and just come to accept it as a fact of life when you have drum brakes.

And this is in a Scirocco.

Good luck
Matt Bal

[backformore]

Thanks Matt. That's the kind of help I'm looking for. I wish the brakes were just bad. I'm hoping that going through the whole system, new parts where reqd and some hints like yours will make the brakes decent enough to be comfortable.

[Bill Miller]

The only time I ever had brake problems in my old ITB Rabbit GTI was when I switched to some POS Mintex pads and just happened to also be running a set of teardrop wheels. The pads sucked (so naturally I had to work them harder), and teardrops are known for being heavy and not allowing much air through.

The things I would do, in order, if the brakes felt spongey: (this assumes you're already using braided steel lines)

Check for any leaks/wetness around the wheel cylinders and calipers
Make sure the rear brakes were adjusted properly
Make sure the system was bled properly
Change calipers and wheel cylinders (one at a time)
Change the master cylinder

You can make the stock brake setup work well in one of these cars, you just have to make sure all the parts are good.

And I'm not that much older than Lawton!

[backformore]

Thanks Bill. The brakes were not just spongy, the pedal had LOTS of travel. I think adjusting the rears will fix that and then I'll see how they feel. Of course I'll check for leaks and bad parts too. As for bleeding, I assume the procedure is the same as for any other car.

I think what Lawton meant Bill, is that you are clearly wise beyond your years :D

[vwdiablo]

11" slotted corrado fronts + 9" corrado rears + 23mm Audi master cylinder + steel braided all around =Nose wheelies

I know I know, not legal...where YOU race.

A stock system in good working order should work great, due to the age of our vehicles however you pretty much need to hit the whole thing from pedal to pads. Flush the whole system out with new fluid, replace everything including lines. Old rubber is weak and you will lose braking power there as it flexes and expands. I'm not sure whats legal but steel braided lines were the biggest difference on every VW I have owned.

[Bill Miller]

Thanks Bill. The brakes were not just spongy, the pedal had LOTS of travel. I think adjusting the rears will fix that and then I'll see how they feel. Of course I'll check for leaks and bad parts too. As for bleeding, I assume the procedure is the same as for any other car.

I think what Lawton meant Bill, is that you are clearly wise beyond your years :D
[/b]


One of the other things that I've heard of causing long pedal travel is warped rotors that tend to push the pistons back in on the calipers, thereby making them travel farther when you push on the pedal. Sounds like you're on the right track w/ checking the rears. :023:

[Spinnetti]

Alluded to, but not stated specifically:

The parking brake is what makes "self adjusting" rears "self adjusting".

All the ideas posted are good ones, but rear adjustment alone could account for what you are describing (and nothing worse than long pedal travel for confidence!)

Its likely you just have long travel to take up the rear adjustment if everything else seems to work ok.

[backformore]

Thanks Spinnetti. I think that the adjustment may be the crux of the problem. So, the VW brakes were "self-adjusted" by actuation of the parking brake? If so, that would appear to be the problem (no P brake) so I will have to adjust manually.

[loopracing]

You said you removed the parking brake cable. Did you lock down the lever that attaches to the brake shoe, that wil affect your adjustment of the shoes.

[Eric Parham]

I still have my parking brake cables (a vestige of my old tilt trailer). I've never had excessive travel except the time when the MC started to go bad. Replaced the booster at the same time since it was hissing at me (i.e., vacuum leak).

[backformore]

Dick,

I did not remove the parking brake cable. I bought the car with it removed. If it was up to me I'd still have it. I've always felt the convenience it afforded more than offset the performance gains.

So, I'll have to look a little harder to see what was done when the previous owner removed the p-brake.

I may also look at what would be required to reinstall it, assuming I can find parts.

Rory

[BobsAuto]

When we first got into IT (back in the infancy days) and we were running the Capri 2600, it too had horrid brakes. Bleeding them was a chore as well because bubbles form in the calipers as you bleed out the air and they are horrid to get out of the system. A trick we used was to use a 1 oz. hammer and lightly tap the caliper in several spots to loosen the bubbles. (This is similar to what nurses do when giving you a shot...you will notice they flick the syringe with their finger...that's to loosen any air bubbles.) It works wonders. You have to do it with all the calipers when bleeding. We found that this worked really well. Good luck.