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PSherm
09-20-2006, 11:08 AM
The CRB withdrew the proposal to the BOD to reclass the Neons from E Prod to F Prod. So much for getting new cars into the production classes. Another case of the LBC good-old-boy network protecting their turf? :bash_1_:

Greg Amy
09-20-2006, 11:31 AM
They did the same exact thing for my request to move the Sentra/NX2000 to FP from EP.

Funny thing, the DC2 Acura Integra LS - the same car that competes against us with very good parity in ITA - was moved this year into FP with the same specs we both asked for.

Kinda makes you go, "hmmmm....?"

PSherm
09-20-2006, 12:45 PM
Greg - at least the CRB gave the Nissan proposal to the BOD. The Neon got withdrawn, with no explanation. I'm beyond the Hmmm... stage on this one. It took the CRB 5 years to properly class the Neon in IT; is it gonna take them 5 years to get it classed properly in Production? Just like ITS, nobody in their right mind is gonna prep for EP so they can get killed, especially the expense of higher engine prep than what was proposed for FP, only to have to de-tune (IF) the car goes to FP eventually. :mad1:

A letter to the CRB is in work... :angry:

GregM
09-20-2006, 05:20 PM
My spare chassis is stripped ready to get blasted / primed and the cage installed. The project will now stop and be pushed out to the storage area.

I was ready to build the F Prod. Neon and now this. Start writing your letters. Posting on line will get us nowhere fast. If enough people write in maybe we can get a response.

I will be at the Runoff's in Topeka so if we can get enough letters in now I can bring it up in the tent meeting. If someone can write up a good request stating the facts ( Dan W or Chis C ?Please help with this ) we can all copy it and send it in. I would reference the ITS to ITA move that took so long it killed Mopar support of the car / parts they developed for IT Neon's.

Dissappointed but not surprised. I could not find where this was mentioned in Fastrack , could you please post it ?

Do they really think anyone would attempt to build an EP Neon ?

PSherm
09-20-2006, 06:44 PM
Greg - it's on page 35, middle of the page. I wrote a letter to the CRB asking for an explanation; we'll see if I get a response. I'm not very hopeful...

I'm glad I haven't done any real work yet, since I'm running my Neon at the Runoffs. Maybe it's last hurrah?

Look me up when you're at HPT. I'll be in the tent meetings as well.

Rabbit07
09-20-2006, 07:09 PM
Do you guys really want to run Prod anyway?

They did the same thing to the Mustang 79-93. It ended up in EP because it's engine is 2.3l. It is a pig in ITB and they want it to run against Miatas?

Let me know how I can help. I personally will still continue to develop the car for ITA. The car gets faster everytime I take it out!

GregM
09-20-2006, 09:20 PM
Paul I'll be in the black #74 Pontiac T2 Firebird for the Runoff's. Look me up as well. We need to be in the Prod meeting.

I will continue to develope the Neon for ITA and I hope others will as well so we can get these cars up front quickly with some more developement. It was great to have Chris racing his neon out at Lime Rock with my two cars running. I hope to have them both up to Chris's level of prep. shortly. The lack of the IT crate motor has slowed me down but I have two motors currently being built to spec. Also being worked on is a set of Penske's as the Mopar units aren't available.

I would like to start to build the Prod. car as my T2 ride will be outclassed shortly with the arrival of the Lotus and some other great changes the CRB has in store for T2. I do believe the Neon in FP will fit the class and be competitive. If they leave it in EP it is just outclassed as the rules sit currently. To leave the car out to pasture like this when there are just so many Neon's out there parked as old SSC cars is insane. No wonder Nasa is growing quickly.

Where are the old Neon SSC drivers and cars hiding ? We need to get more people involved. Just the other day I was driving in a wealthy neighborhood ( $2,000,000 + ) and there in the driveway outside the garage sat a pristine Neon Challenge car in full decal's like the day it first raced !!! How many more are out there hiding just waiting ???????????????????

PSherm
09-20-2006, 10:22 PM
Where are the old Neon SSC drivers and cars hiding ? [/b]

They're all running in Nasa's Spec Neon series! I think I have seen 3 Neons running in ITA in the Midiv this year...

At least with prepping the car for IT, I have no excuse not to install Chris' bushings in my control arms!
And I already have the Mopar coilovers, although I'm gonna need a shorter spring to fit 225's on the front. I'll just have to flip the tires after every weekend...

Knestis
09-20-2006, 10:25 PM
I heard of one that ended up being a kid's ride for school.

K

lateapex911
09-20-2006, 10:42 PM
I don't know how it works on the Prod car side of things, but don't be too quick to blame the CRB. Yes, they are the final word and the conduit that you see, but the PAC is the committee that does the legwork and makes the recommendations.

In IT, most of the calls are made by the ITAC. The CRb makes suggestions and comments, and asks questions for better understanding, and prvides background info, but most of the calls are ITAC calls.

So, look up who's on the PAC, and go have a chat if you want to understand how things really happened.

Fastfred92
09-21-2006, 08:32 AM
Where are the old Neon SSC drivers and cars hiding ? We need to get more people involved. Just the other day I was driving in a wealthy neighborhood ( $2,000,000 + ) and there in the driveway outside the garage sat a pristine Neon Challenge car in full decal's like the day it first raced !!! How many more are out there hiding just waiting ???????????????????
[/b]

My 2001 ACR SSC lease expired, I would love to know where that car is now ! :P

GregM
09-21-2006, 11:06 AM
The following items were withdrawn by the Club Racing Board
Production
Item 9. Effective 11/1/06: Reclassify the 1995-98 LP Dodge Neon (SOHC and DOHC) from EP to FP at current EP weight, with .450 inch lift on
the camshaft, and 11.0:1 compression ratio.

Does anyone know who sent in the original request to the CRB for this ?
Has anyone even built an EP motor to determine how much power it will even have ?

Here's the names of the Advisory Comittee memebers
Production
Jon Brakke, Chairman
Larry Funk
Kevin Allen
Eric Krueger
Tim Linerud
Tom Feller
Mike Cummings
Kevin Dennis
Liaisons: Culbertson & Dowie

Send in your request to reclassify the EP Neon to FP right away. To post here about it without sending a request is a waste of time. Remember this all has to be done before December unless of course your the SSB Solstice :rolleyes: Otherwise its another year of no Production Neon racing in SCCA.

Send requests to [email protected]

PSherm
09-21-2006, 01:07 PM
I don't know how it works on the Prod car side of things, but don't be too quick to blame the CRB. Yes, they are the final word and the conduit that you see, but the PAC is the committee that does the legwork and makes the recommendations.
[/b]
Jake - that may indeed be the case, but I would like an explanation from the CRB why THEY pulled the proposal. The original proposal was in the March FasTrack for member comment, and I saw no letters during the year against it. If I had an answer from the CRB, then whatever issues there are can be addressed by the PAC. :dead_horse:

That being said, I don't know why I'm in such a hurry to spend oodles of time and money going into Prod... :wacko:

lateapex911
09-21-2006, 01:16 PM
That being said, I don't know why I'm in such a hurry to spend oodles of time and money going into Prod... :wacko:
[/b]


me either! it's a political and mechanical snake pit!

(kidding....sort of...........)

GregM
09-22-2006, 07:58 AM
Does anyone have the numbers for 1995- 1999 please. Thanks

Neon’s entered in the SCCA Runoff’s
2006 2 Neon’s out of 32 entered
2005 5 Neon’s out of 38 entered
2004 13 Neon’s out of 40 entered
2003 14 Neon’s out of 40 entered
2002 12 Neon’s out of 30 entered
2001 17 Neon’s out of 38 entered
2000 12 Neon’s out of 31 entered

Also if anyone has any entry numbers for Neon Challenge races that can be quoted it would be appreciated.

Andy Bettencourt
09-22-2006, 08:38 AM
The common thread in the NX/SE-R and Neon rejection to FP seems to be the 2.0L engine size. Even the Miata in FP (1.6) starts with 116hp and has to have a LP head IIRC.

To write a good letter - find cars of similar vintage, of similar power AND of similar engine capaicty - the DC2 Integra is close as Greg pointed out but you may just be "that much" over.

The problem with Prod IMHO is that they are forcing newer cars in with limited prep becasue they don't want to create more classes and let older ones die.

GregM
09-22-2006, 11:11 AM
Andy I believe you are correct.

WE ( the members) need to get this problem solved before we have no more memership to support this club. The sky isn't falling but our membership is graying and Nasa is attracting all the younger crowd due to situations like these. This is a problem we will face in the future. Be proactive not retroactive about the future of OUR club.

How many 60's/ 50's vintage Prod. cars do you think get built a year as opposed to how many possible new mid 90's Prod. cars that could get built. The younger crowd many believe do not relate to these older cars. I myself race vintage also but you don't see my vintage historied 65 A/S Mustang racing National's in SCCA now do you ???????????

Now we are headed to Topeka 2006 for the Runoff's and if you look at the field of car's entered we have a 69 Datsun, a 72 Datsun and a 73 Datsun in E Production. Then we look to F Production where we have a 73 BMW 2002, a 68 MG Sprite, a 62 & 63 Austin Healey, a 63 MGB, a 65 Turner Millenium, a 70 Porsche 914 and a 62 Lotus Super 7 just to name a few. None of these cars ever achieved the production numbers we see in the Neon ACR let alone any Neon model that was produced yet we don't try to bring in the newer cars to the class. A car like this with high production numbers and readily available already built race cars that can be converted should be supported by the club so as to bring in newer membership that many times wasn't even born when these other cars were produced.

I would support the NX/ SER request as well.

Charlie Broring
09-22-2006, 10:57 PM
I am sorry to hear of the denial to move the Neon to F/P. I was aslo turned down in my request to move the hopeless F/P Volvo 142 that I have been racing in National's. The CRB and Prod Advisory comittee are doing a piss poor job of letting IT cars into Production with a competitive classification. I think it is a combination of lack of understanding of the cars performance potential and a lack of desire to allow IT cars into Prod. They are really hung up on not creating an "overdog" car. They over estimate the speed of the limited prep sedans. For example, the poor ITB Mustang really got screwed being classed in E/P Limited Prep.

I just today submitted a letter to the CRB that is very critical of the job they are doing in providing IT cars an oprtunity to move in Prod or GT. The letter is not specific to my car and certainly applies to your issue too. I suggest that you consider writing a similar letter. If they get enough complaints maybe they will listen. They should, it's our club as much as it thiers.

By the way I am so frustrated by the Prod. rulemakers that I am converting my F/P car to IT!

Charlie Broring

p.keane
09-25-2006, 03:48 PM
Charlie, I have only been on the CRB for less that a year and being from an IT back ground the different Prod rules make my head swim. As Jake said each class has a committee that sends the CRB recommendations. I have tried to alway support what the indavidual committees recomend, unless I thought it was outside the box. I will also let you know that I am a strong supporter of the Production committee running all of the current cars through a similar process like the IT comittee did last year. This would enable them to have a better understanding of how the different rules packages stack up. I will also be at the runoff, so feel free to look me up. Peter Keane, CRB.

mustanghammer
09-25-2006, 04:54 PM
Charlie, I have only been on the CRB for less that a year and being from an IT back ground the different Prod rules make my head swim. As Jake said each class has a committee that sends the CRB recommendations. I have tried to alway support what the indavidual committees recomend, unless I thought it was outside the box. I will also let you know that I am a strong supporter of the Production committee running all of the current cars through a similar process like the IT comittee did last year. This would enable them to have a better understanding of how the different rules packages stack up. I will also be at the runoff, so feel free to look me up. Peter Keane, CRB.
[/b]

I'll be happy to discuss this with you in person as well but it seems to me that the best place to find new Prod Cars is in the ITCS.

Here are some thoughts:

How about classing cars before anyone asks for the classification. NASA does this in spades!

If the PAC feels the need to control the performance potential of new cars how about doing this with weight. Weight is cheap to add and some what cheap to take off.

Don't worry about a car's age - some "old" cars are still VERY popular like the one I own

Don't be afraid to class the same car in multiple places - drivers can read class designations on track and it gives a car owner a chance to build as they go.

Thanks for posting here Peter!

GregM
09-25-2006, 06:15 PM
Peter,
I hope to meet you at Topeka to discuss this car . Why would the CRB withdraw the request like this without explanation ? Some insight would be helpful so maybe we can address the issue and not have to wait another whole year for a chance. We have two more Fastrack's to get it done. FP is the right choice for a Neon racer to move into National competion, so why not give a car that has a huge following a chance at the National level ?

I believe we have already seen a similar situation with the ITS move to ITA that was stalled. Once it did happen it was too late as unfortunately for Neon racer's as Dodge had removed their support of their IT parts program due to poor sales. The Club should have supported a Manufacturer that had supported Club racing for so many years. Its amazing to see the Mazda program and support grow only to watch Dodge's die off. No Neon has proven to be truly competitive in ITA although many of us are now trying. Definitely not a class killer but a good fit after more developement.

Why build an EP car when an ITA car isn't competitive ? It is limited prep. afterall and the suspension limits the cars potential.
Does anyone in SCCA really think someone will build a GT-2 DOHC Neon or a GT-3 SOHC Neon at this point when even the lower entry level classed Neon's can't prove to be competitive ?

Do we really need a club where we have Miata's ( and I like Miata's a lot ) racing ( EP, FP,GTL, GT-3, GT-2, ITS, ITA, SSM, SM, T3 and SSB )in every class ? Just to name a few.

Isn't 11 classifications a bit much for one car model ????

Why not add the FP Neon classification and put the old standby TBD at the end like they did for the Subaru T2 restrictor that never happened ? They could alway's add 100lbs anytime they want in Fastrack to keep it level .

We need newer car model's classified and need to stop worrying about older car's. We are not the " Antique Sportcar Racing Club of America " afterall. This isn't vintage racing and I do have a vintage racecar.

Peter I hope you can help. Thanks

PSherm
09-26-2006, 03:22 PM
Peter - thank you for your post, I will definitely look you up at the Runoffs. I sent an e-mail to the CRB the day I read the FasTrack. All I want at this time is an explanation as to why the proposal was pulled. There was nothing listed in FasTrack, and I've received no response from the CRB or PAC. Without anything official from either party means anything we try to put together for a new classing is spitting in the wind, and that is pissing me off. :angry:

lateapex911
09-26-2006, 05:11 PM
Hey guys, screw getting the car into Fp or Ep or any P, LOL....just get IT made National, ... ;)

Gotta admit, it would solve your problem! Who wants to do all that extra prep work to run 1 second a lap faster anyway??

Kidding........sorta.

Seriously, Peter is a good guy. He's only one of 7 or so guys on the CRB, but he's got good experience, and he's open minded.

p.keane
09-27-2006, 12:49 PM
Guys I had posted again, but do not know what happened to it. What I wanted to say is I agree there is a lot of work to be done in Production. I also think the current CRB is very forward thinking and improvements are coming. Just keep sending the letters. Oh and Jake is right, let's just get IT national status and then we can all go to Topeka. PK

PSherm
09-27-2006, 01:01 PM
Peter, I WANT to send in a letter but until I know the reason the CRB withdrew the proposal, I don't know what to ask for or what info to provide above what they already have. All I want right now is an explanation! :dead_horse:

As far as IT going National, I'd say no (for now). Do I think there should be a National class between SS and Prod; yes. But until the CRB/BOD figure out a plan to make the Runoffs work for more classes I would not rush to ask for it.

I'd REALLY like for Production cages to be legal for IT so the transition would be less costly/painful... :)

RSTPerformance
09-27-2006, 01:43 PM
I'd REALLY like for Production cages to be legal for IT so the transition would be less costly/painful... :)
[/b]


I havn't read this thread to detailed, but I did see the above quote... and I love the idea!!! :D However most would see it as unessesary... IT cages are legal for production correct?

PSherm
09-27-2006, 03:46 PM
... IT cages are legal for production correct?
[/b]

I believe that is correct, for the most part. The problem (as I see it) is that in IT trim, my (NEON) cage has to be based on the IT spec weight, which means the cage would be heavier gauge than the cage for Prod. So unless I would want to replace the cage, I would pay a weight penalty by keeping the IT cage, which increases my costs significantly. If I can start out with a Prod cage (based on Prod weight), then I could run the same cage and move seemlesly (relatively) to Production. :happy204:

Of course this is just my opinion... :rolleyes:

GregM
10-17-2006, 02:38 PM
So off to Topeka we went.

As for the move to FP from EP Here's one of the most typical statements made by SCCA...........
"Based on the Performance Potential "

" Based on the PERFORMANCE Potential the Neon is classified in EP " So when asked what they thought the potential was they apparently think the car will make under the limited prep rules over 200hp. They have no DATA to based this on whatsoever !!!!

So its a long winter and if anyone's bored and wants to waste money building a EP Neon only to verify to the CRB its not competitive and then wait years for it to be moved go for it !

I will send in another request along with my dyno sheets from two types of dyno's to the CRB along with printed out testing at my home track from my DL1 from my FULLY prepared ITA NEON after it gets the fresh motor. :024:

The Regional Classes should be reflected in the National Classifications. That is ITS moves to ITA then so should EP move to FP as the same cars are represented.

This is why the Club is graying and we are losing younger membership. Why do we need 40 year old cars racing at the National level ???? :dead_horse:

GregM
01-23-2007, 04:37 PM
February Fastrack
Production
1. Reclassify the 95-98 LP Neon to FP ( Meindl / Sherman ) We wish to monitor the cars performance in EP

So the two letters all went in in October and here we lost another season. Nobody will build a full tilt EP Neon until it gets competitive in ITA. Cars it can't beat in ITA are in FP not EP. Seem's logical.

Yet a Miata is in EP,FP,SM,SSM,T3,SSB,GT3,ITA,ITS did I miss any ?????

If I can I will run the ITA car in EP at Lime Rock for laughs. :dead_horse:

lateapex911
01-24-2007, 10:09 AM
If I can I will run the ITA car in EP at Lime Rock for laughs. :dead_horse: [/b]

You'll probably do better as ITA cars routinley run faster times than the EP regional guys....for the most part. Certainly you'll get a better trophy.

Keep in mind that there are differences between the categories that affect the classing, so while it might appear that the car should parallel another ITA car, it might not make sense once you factor in the allowable mods.

For example, lots of ITA cars are 1.6 litres, but the Neon is much larger. (20%) Something is restraining that power, and perhaps it can be changed in Prod, where it coudn't be in IT.

Of course, on the other hand, IT uses a mostly mathmatical process to create repeatable classing, while the Prod guys use on track performace and intuition.

Rabbit07
01-24-2007, 12:07 PM
For example, lots of ITA cars are 1.6 litres, but the Neon is much larger. (20%) Something is restraining that power, and perhaps it can be changed in Prod, where it coudn't be in IT.

Of course, on the other hand, IT uses a mostly mathmatical process to create repeatable classing, while the Prod guys use on track performace and intuition.
[/b]


There is nothing holding back the power. Power is the only thing it has going for it!

GregM
01-24-2007, 02:18 PM
There is nothing holding back the power. Power is the only thing it has going for it!
[/b]

BINGO !!!!!

Who said anything about regionals anyway ??? It will run in EP at the National level and get its ass kicked so the National Office can monitor :024: its outsanding performance.

Rabbit07
01-24-2007, 04:11 PM
BINGO !!!!!

Who said anything about regionals anyway ??? It will run in EP at the National level and get its ass kicked so the National Office can monitor :024: its outsanding performance.
[/b]


I plan on doing the same thing

lateapex911
01-24-2007, 04:44 PM
BINGO !!!!!

Who said anything about regionals anyway ??? It will run in EP at the National level and get its ass kicked so the National Office can monitor :024: its outsanding performance. [/b]

Well, first, on track performance is full of pitfalls when it comes to monitering performance, and....as you said, you're running an ITA car. Why should they give any weight to your results> You SHOULD be off the pace, right?

Rabbit07
01-24-2007, 07:01 PM
Well, first, on track performance is full of pitfalls when it comes to monitering performance, and....as you said, you're running an ITA car. Why should they give any weight to your results> You SHOULD be off the pace, right?
[/b]


The didference in the allowable things that you can do to the EP Neon aren't going to make up for the difference in lap times. Besides, who says that the car I will run in EP is an ITA car :unsure:

Maybe I put the cam in and up the compression ratio with a milled head? B)

The possiblities are endless (Mad scientist laugh)

lateapex911
01-25-2007, 12:26 AM
If I can I will run the ITA car in EP at Lime Rock for laughs. :dead_horse: [/b]

Um....you did?

Guess I'm confused. The Prod guys always do that to me....with three different weights for the same car, and THEN they talk about limited prep versions of that car....sheesh! .LOL.

GregM
01-25-2007, 09:00 AM
Maybe I put the cam in and up the compression ratio with a milled head? B)

The possiblities are endless (Mad scientist laugh)
[/b]

Super Bingo

Its not like I don't have a fleet of 4 Neon's lurking down the block from the track :lol: :lol: :lol:
You never know which one I'll show up in.................

The possiblities are endless (Mad scientist laugh) as well...........................

racerb
02-01-2007, 05:07 PM
Here's the names of the Advisory Comittee memebers
Production
Jon Brakke, Chairman
Larry Funk
Kevin Allen
Eric Krueger
Tim Linerud
Tom Feller
Mike Cummings
Kevin Dennis
Liaisons: Culbertson & Dowie


Ok guys, look at this list of names carefully, hearin lies your problem.
These are some of the same folks you'd be competeing against in Prod,
so guess what their thinking, well it's HECK NO to you!! It's the same old
crap I went through several years ago, when I tried to get my '89 Accord
LXi moved from ITA to ITB. Well I gave up trying, cause the Volvo boys
had too many Reps on the board, to let it pass. As long as your not playing
on their swingset, then you can use any of the playground equiptment
you want, but make one move and the bullies take over!! As you know,
the Accord finally got moved, but for me it was 5 years and 2 cars too late.
:mad1:

lateapex911
02-02-2007, 11:35 AM
Your accord may, or may not have been rejected due to "turf protectionism", but, more likely it was because back then there was no repeatable and defined process. We have it now, and it makes things much more objective. THe prod folks have no such thing that I am aware of, so results might be fine, or might not be fine, but perception will always be the issue.

Convince the Prod Ad Hoc to devise and use a real repeatable process, and I suggest you'd have more confidence in their decisions. (THe ITAC recently forward our process to them for a look..,maybe they can adapt or use the basic framework?)

Rabbit07
02-02-2007, 11:55 AM
(THe ITAC recently forward our process to them for a look..,maybe they can adapt or use the basic framework?)
[/b]


Thanks Jake.

By the way, I for one, do like the way things seem to be going with IT. Great Job! :happy204:

racerb
02-02-2007, 09:14 PM
Thanks Jake.

By the way, I for one, do like the way things seem to be going with IT. Great Job! :happy204:
[/quote]


I raced IT from 1986 to 2000, and just got frustrated with the constant "does not fit class philosophy"
comeback that always came from the Comp Board. The Accord I spoke of was to be my return, but
once again, a wall was thrown up in front of my efforts. After a short time in an Administrative
possition with an SCCA Pro series, I began to understand the reasons for my frustration, the clubs
unwillingness to adapt to modern thinking. Well long story short, I left SCCA and joined up with NASA,
and it's been the best couple years of my life. My future PT car will be as tame or as racical as I
choose, with only my budget as my restriction, not a class philosophy to hold me back. As far as new
ideas and changes making things better, it's about 21 years too late in my book.
:dead_horse:

lateapex911
02-04-2007, 02:14 PM
Thanks Jake.

By the way, I for one, do like the way things seem to be going with IT. Great Job! :happy204:



I..... As far as new
ideas and changes making things better, it's about 21 years too late in my book.
:dead_horse:
[/b]

Yea, big waste of time...we'll just revert to the 2003 rulebook, and skip all the silly time wasting con calls....