October Fastrack is up

[Greg Amy]

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/06-10-fastrack.pdf

Discuss.

[Knestis]

MEMBER ADVISORIES

1. Those members who choose to use a head and neck restraint are strongly urged to purchase an SFI certified unit. Those devices that have alternate attachment points to the driver restraint system are noncompliant with current rules.

K

[Greg Amy]

C. Based on member input, a Regional Class meeting or exceeding the participation requirements outlined in paragraph 17.1.11.A. for one (1) year may be considered for inclusion in the National Championship racing program, except Improved Touring.

[its66]

Maybe several regions could work together to develop a series of production based classes that closely shadow Improved Touring cars--wink wink nudge nudge. Maybe extend the "Radial Sedan" class from the left coast? This is assuming that competitors wanted in to the whole National thing. I really don't, but that is a debate for another thread.

[zracre]

Nice ITR is a go!

Nice rules for SM! no more 1k clutches!

I hope FWD adders help the GSR/all FWD in ITS get a diet

[RacerBill]

Anybody have an insight into the 'proposed reorganization of the GCR' that was developed by JoAnne Jensen and presented to the Board by Jeremy?

Also, what is the 'less requent medical exam criteria for competition licenses....'

[924Guy]

MEMBER ADVISORIES

1. Those members who choose to use a head and neck restraint are strongly urged to purchase an SFI certified unit. Those devices that have alternate attachment points to the driver restraint system are noncompliant with current rules.

K
[/b]

I can think of one and only one HNR that would be affected by this "advisory"... :rolleyes:

Any concern about an appearance of impartiality on the part of the CRB seems to be waning...

[Jeremy Billiel]

I hope FWD adders help the GSR/all FWD in ITS get a diet
[/b]

I do too, but my request, Andy's and Zsolt's were in there and all we got was a "Thank you for your letter."

[dj10]

Nice ITR is a go!

[/b]



Nice ITR is a go! :happy204:

Nice job for all of you that worked so hard for this!

[Greg Amy]

Not IT-related, but:

The following items were withdrawn by the Club Racing Board: Item 9. Effective 11/1/06: Reclassify the 1995-98 LP Dodge Neon (SOHC and DOHC) from EP to FP at current EP weight, with .450 inch lift on
the camshaft, and 11.0:1 compression ratio.

NOT RECOMMENDED: EP - Reclassify the LP 1990-94 Nissan NX2000/Sentra SE-R and 200SX/SE-R to FP (Amy). The cars are classified correctly." (I had requested it moved to FP with the same compression-ratio and camshafts limitations that others in the class are getting, same as the Neon above).

Yet, the Acura Integra LS, the very same car that runs in ITA with us very competitively, was classified in FP this year with - wait for it - .450" camshaft lift and 11.0:1 compression. There are numerous other ITA-classed vehicles (mostly Hondas) that have also been reclassed to FP from EP at the same limitations.

Sigh. With the NX and the Neon it's 2002 all over again...

[Knestis]

You wade into the Amazon of Production, you deal with the critters you're going to find there...

K

[lateapex911]

That's exactly what i was thinking when I read gregs letter in Fastrack.....brave...very brave.

[PSherm]

You wade into the Amazon of Production, you deal with the critters you're going to find there...

K
[/b]
Nicely put. Always an adventure when dealing with the CRB... :wacko:

Looks like I'll be building the ITA Neon this winter instead of the FP Neon...

[dickita15]

I found it interesting that the BOD also rejected the SFI requirement for roll bar padding.

[mustanghammer]

C. Based on member input, a Regional Class meeting or exceeding the participation requirements outlined in paragraph 17.1.11.A. for one (1) year may be considered for inclusion in the National Championship racing program, except Improved Touring.
[/b]

:mad1:

I like being a part of one of the largest club racing catagories and then being told I don't count. I like it so much that I never want to see IT results in SportsCar.

[erlrich]

:mad1:

I like being a part of one of the largest club racing catagories and then being told I don't count. I like it so much that I never want to see IT results in SportsCar.

[/b] Well, if there was ever any doubt at least now we know EXACTLY where we stand with the boys in Topeka. Not that there was ever any doubt.

I think the DC region needs to add a new regional-only class. We could call the class TI (Touring/Improved).

[Bill Miller]

Well, if there was ever any doubt at least now we know EXACTLY where we stand with the boys in Topeka. Not that there was ever any doubt.

I think the DC region needs to add a new regional-only class. We could call the class TI (Touring/Improved).
[/b]

You're right, there never was any doubt. Looks great to an outsider too. They talk about ITR being a home from some ex- Touring 2 and Touring 3 cars. You get to 'improve' your car by losing your ability to run for a National Championship. What are they afraid of? Why not make every class eligible, and let the drivers speak w/ their entries?

Did anybody notice that they lowered the participation standards? Went from 3.5 CPR (cars per race) from the top 5 Divisions to 2.5 CPR for all Divisions. Do these people have any idea how foolish policies like that make them look? You don't need to average 3 cars per race, across the country, yet you get to run for a National Championship? Granted, you have to be one of the top 24 classes, and it's pretty much a given that once a class doesn't make the Runoffs, that it will be next to impossible to get back there.

I only got to skim through FasTrack yesterday, I need to read it through a couple of times to see what other weasly (sp?) language they've come up with.

[mustanghammer]

You're right, there never was any doubt. Looks great to an outsider too. They talk about ITR being a home from some ex- Touring 2 and Touring 3 cars. You get to 'improve' your car by losing your ability to run for a National Championship. What are they afraid of? Why not make every class eligible, and let the drivers speak w/ their entries?

[/b]


They are afraid of what happened in Spec Miata. They know that another set of classes that offers close competition at a reasonable operating cost will kill off some of the over-priced elite classes the club is now pushing.

These people are out of touch.

[x-ring]

Well, my thoughts on this are mixed. At first blush it seems we are getting the short end of the stick by being forever banned from national racing, and I do admit that it does look appealing from the outside.

As I think about it though, I think I support the 'forever regional' clause. Have you ever been to the runoffs? The cost of making your way to the front now is getting out of hand. If IT were in the hunt for one of the 'top 24' what do you think would happen to the cost of IT racing?

I'm afraid of what happened to SM too. Three years ago you could run up front in a $10K car. Now a 'crate' engine from one of the big names is half that, and one of their 'better' engines is quite a bit more. All this in a class with eight pages of rules, the first of which is IIDSTYCTYC.

Besides, as I age, I'm past worrying about the 'we're better than you and don't you forget it' BS. :birra:

[Andy Bettencourt]

That's funny, I haven't seen any 'Make IT a National Class" letters hit the CRB.

Trust me when I say this: In some pockets of the country, nothing would change, but in a whole bunch, it would require everyone to step up to this at a minimum:

Pro motor

Better bits and pieces

Tons of test days

New tires every 6-8 heat cycles

The bottom line is that the more attractive the class becomes, the more people - and the more money - come with it. Some of the cars I see winning in some parts of the country could NEVER win in others. Most people play to the strength of their competition in any sport. Haveing said that, I am all for IT going National but there are PLENTY of people who have seen what it has done to the 'average' SM guy and are against it.

[tnord]

They are afraid of what happened in Spec Miata. They know that another set of classes that offers close competition at a reasonable operating cost will kill off some of the over-priced elite classes the club is now pushing.

These people are out of touch.
[/b]


scott i raced with you in IT this year, and from what i've seen of MiDiv IT racing, we want no part of going to a national class.

i'm a converted SM guy that when I got into it 3+years ago, it was WAY before the $7k pro motors became common, and all the other pro-level prep. from the cars i've seen and raced with in our area, to be competitive on the national level, every single ITA car (except for boettinger in the CRX) would need about $5k of development minimum.

now, i voted for SM to become a national class in hopes that the big dollar guys would stay away from regional racing, but that doesn't seem to have happened. maybe it will in the next couple years....we'll see.

i am strongly in favor of IT remaining regional only. if you want to be nationally recognized for your accomplishments in IT, go to the ARRC.

[x-ring]

Some of the cars I see winning in some parts of the country could NEVER win in others. [/b]

Have you been checking the RMDiv results again? :D

On a seperate subject Andy, could you PM me your email address? I have a couple of SM questions I'd like to ask you before October, and Topeka has removed the email links from the 'committies' pages - everything goes to the CRB for distribution now.

[tderonne]

Not taking sides, but when I hear about $1K or $2K clutches in Spec Miata being crazy, I just can't help but remembering they are perfectly legal in IT.

Careful what you ask for.

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

The cost escalation thing is really a red herring. How much does it cost the guys that have stayed Regional w/ SM, vs. what it's costs the folks that are running Nationals this year? Look at the amount of money that the folks running Prod cars at Regionals are spending vs. what the folks running Nationals are spending. Another class to look at is AS. Compare the costs of running an AS car in a Regional program vs. a National program. You just have to look at the way some of the classified ads are written in SportsCar. "Good Regional Car" "Top National Car". You tell me which one will cost more.

Sure, if you want to be at the top of the IT heap, it's going to require some serious coin. That's true today, w/ IT being Regional. Will it cost more to be at the top of the heap if IT goes National? More than likely, but it's hard to say. I think that what you would see, if IT went National, is that it would actually be less expensive for the folks that decided to go w/ Regional programs vs. National programs. Some have said that the big $$ folks would continue to run Regionals, and would push the lower budget people that much farther down the grid. I have yet to see anything that supports this, while you've got a couple of good examples to the contrary (see my earlier comments about Regional Prod cars).

People use the cost escalation theory as a way of saying that IT shouldn't go National, and they point to how SM costs have gotten out of hand, as supporting evidence. Yes, SM costs have gotten out of hand, but running at the pointy end of the field isn't supposed to be cheap.

Ask yourself, how many people do you think would show up at a Regional w/ a $50k ($75k?) ITS or ITR car, if they had the option of running Nationals w/ it and going to the Runoffs (and don't think they wouldn't generate enough entries to get a spot)? Sure, you see guys show up w/ the occasional big $$ car at Regionals, but those are mostly in the really fast classes like GT1, ITE, ASR, and SPO.

[Greg Amy]

Deja vu...like, 20 years' worth.

[mustanghammer]

scott i raced with you in IT this year, and from what i've seen of MiDiv IT racing, we want no part of going to a national class.

i'm a converted SM guy that when I got into it 3+years ago, it was WAY before the $7k pro motors became common, and all the other pro-level prep. from the cars i've seen and raced with in our area, to be competitive on the national level, every single ITA car (except for boettinger in the CRX) would need about $5k of development minimum.

now, i voted for SM to become a national class in hopes that the big dollar guys would stay away from regional racing, but that doesn't seem to have happened. maybe it will in the next couple years....we'll see.

i am strongly in favor of IT remaining regional only. if you want to be nationally recognized for your accomplishments in IT, go to the ARRC.
[/b]

Well the reason why I want National Class status is because I too race in MidDiv IT and frankly our program sucks. The fact that we couldn't put more than 14 cars on grid for the HPT National in June was disappointing and it cost IT a chance to be a part of the September race. Don't be surprised if regional races are few and far between at HPT next year. National Racing has gotten more popular at all of the tracks in our division and I fear that we Regional only racers will pay the price because we will have fewer opportunities to play.

I have no illusions concerning what this would cost or my relative ability to compete or even qualify but I want my shot. I entered 13 consecutive Solo II National Championships in a car that cost more to operate than my IT car does. I never did worth a damn but I had fun, I was given a chance to participate and I didn't feel excluded.

I would love to run the ARRC. Unfortunately my company blacks out vacation during November - it is our "busy season" and I too deeply involved.

I haven't written a letter but I have spoken to my area director several times. In my opinion he has NO good arguments against National Status for IT. This issue will be one of the deciding factors concerning who I support in the next director's election.

[lateapex911]

I have, over the years, discussed this with various guys in positions of power within the club, and these common points keep coming up:

- Cars are too old
- Car prep sketchy, condition sometimes ratty.
- perception of excessive cheating
- impossible to scrutineer due to lack of accurate shop manuals etc.


Now....add one more item-

- We can't get rid of what we have now.

So, you can see that while all those items belong to existing National classes, the guys in charge are loath to make sweeping changes. Are the arguments disengenious?? Yes, and not ALL of the guys in charge feel that they hold water, but at least 51% do.

I do think that there was some dicussion about it recently, and I am sure that IT going National had it's proponents, but not enough.

So, if there are to be new Regional classes, make sure that those items are addressed for the best chance of success.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I don't think it's correct to compare Regional grids vs. National grids. SM and IT would be born from Regonal racing. The culture is different. I only know of one SM guy this year who went National racing and did no Regionals. Everyone else is doing a full Reg schdule with 3-4 Nats thrown in.

No offense intended but prep level for "Regional" Prod cars is pretty low. Why is it 95% of these cars are slower than ITA? The culture is that a top Prod guy goes to 2-3 Nationals, gets his invite and that is all the money he needs to outlay. It seems most Regional guys race for the fun of it and the National guys race because they 'have to' to get to the big dance. SM and IT culture is the opposite.

If guys in some of the wicked National classes had the option of building a top car for less money (IT) and less operating costs but could still go to the dance, I am betting IT would boom.

Again, if IT went National, NOTHING would change at the pointy end of ITA in NER...NOTHING. But in some Regions, people would flock to it and some guys would go from 5th to 15th on grid. Even with no NEW players in SM, guys who didn't prep for National caliber competition have slipped down the grid sheet and are sour because things ain't what they used to be.

Hey, I am for it - but it will hurt IT in most areas...so I am very leary of the idea.

[tnord]

If guys in some of the wicked National classes had the option of building a top car for less money (IT) and less operating costs but could still go to the dance, I am betting IT would boom.

[/b]

this is dead on, and you should pay particular attention to this scott, because it is just what you say you want. it's the same reson so many people are now in SM.

if IT went national, you can count on #'s increasing, and the class becoming more competitive. more competitive = higher levels of prep = big$. now you say that you want it to go national because you would have more opportunities to race at HPT. now, i don't really believe that to be true, but is that really a reason to change the structure of the class for the whole country? we have a unique situation around here having the runoffs.

I also believe that combined national/regional weekends at HPT are dead. this has been expected since the announcement of HPT being the new runoffs site. i don't think the 14 entries that weekend had anything to do with the program sucking, it had to do with there not being 2 regional races available that weekend. it was the same thing at MAM last week, we only had 8 ITA entries because there was only 1 race that weekend. but all the guys chasing points for the Mid-Am were there. we've had over 10 at every other race i've been to, and up to 17 i think.

[planet6racing]

Phew! Project Litrecola can move forward!!!

As far as the H&N thing, the above quoted text is a recommendation to the BOD and not approved by the BOD. My letter will be going in to challenge the "it's not currently legal" comment.

Oh, and can we not bog this thread down with yet another "If IT went national, the economy of Turdurkistan would collapse" discussions? That is clearly one thing that has been beaten to death.

[JoshS]

That's funny, I haven't seen any 'Make IT a National Class" letters hit the CRB.
[/b]I wrote another one yesterday. Have the rest of you?



The bottom line is that the more attractive the class becomes, the more people - and the more money - come with it. Some of the cars I see winning in some parts of the country could NEVER win in others. Most people play to the strength of their competition in any sport. Haveing said that, I am all for IT going National but there are PLENTY of people who have seen what it has done to the 'average' SM guy and are against it.[/b]
Has it really though? I think there isn't much crossover between national races and regional races, except for maybe at National/Regional combined race weekends. It costs a lot of time and money to travel around the division for points, and most National drivers I know (myself included) don't even go to regional weekend races. Look at the turnout of the SS/T classes at regionals. At least here on the west coast, they are non-existent classes. Yet T2, for example, is huge at every west coast National. While I agree that the fastest spec miatas might be getting even faster now that they are running for a National Championship, I dont' think you'll find too many of those drivers (or cars) at regional weekends anymore. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, but I don't see National status eroding the entry-level nature of regional racing.

[JeffYoung]

I like racing in my "outlaw" non-national regional IT class. I think IT racing is the best and cheapest (SM included now) racing there is. I think National status, or the potential for it, would change that. If I ever won an ARRC, and rest assured that is extremely unlikley, I would be satisfied that I had beaten some of the top prepped and best driven road race cars in the country. I would be just as satisfied as if I had dragged an MGA to Topeka to get a medal for beating Spridgets.

IT's healthy, it just needs new cars. The new cars are here. Let's not screw it up by injecting all the bs that goes iwth being a national class.

[ddewhurst]

***Oh, and can we not bog this thread down with yet another "If IT went national, the economy of Turdurkistan would collapse" discussions? That is clearly one thing that has been beaten to death.***

Bill, the friken H&N restraint has also been beaten through the earth. What was the value of all the memos & umpteen pages on this site? As long as the CRB/BoD continue using weasel words (I like that word K.) we who need to understand the rules will continue to not understand the writte rules.

If anyone who has all the answers to Production cars being classed thinks they have a clue please enlighten me on the following respone in Fastrack after Scott requested National classing for a non-ported 1st gen RX-7 in G Production. "Creating another level of prep is inconsistent with class philosophy." If the CRB/Bod uses an answer like that the class philosophy should be a documented item. Limited prep/Restricted prep or what ever it was called back in 1996 when it stared was to REDUCE the cost of preping & maintaing a Production race car. The 1st gen RX-7 was the platform car with street porting. & if the car don't have a ported motor it don't fit the class philosophy. Again, weasel words....................

Ahhhhhh :119: , I fell off my soap box.

David

ps: I know the level of spending at the sharp end of any stick. No I would not race at the sharp end of the stick in G Production.

[mustanghammer]

I also believe that combined national/regional weekends at HPT are dead. this has been expected since the announcement of HPT being the new runoffs site. i don't think the 14 entries that weekend had anything to do with the program sucking, it had to do with there not being 2 regional races available that weekend. it was the same thing at MAM last week, we only had 8 ITA entries because there was only 1 race that weekend. but all the guys chasing points for the Mid-Am were there. we've had over 10 at every other race i've been to, and up to 17 i think.
[/b]

The problem Todd is that I doubt we can afford to put on a double a t HPT. Before the one we had in July there were more drivers entered in the Friday Test day than there were for the whole race weekend. What happens if the same becomes true at other tracks? Or we have to do away with R/N weekends all together because we have too many Nationally eligible classes to fit in an IT race group?

Anyone with a National Class eligible car seems to be running national races in MidDiv. So that means a race organizer has to rely on Regional only classes to fill out a double regional weekend. That is hard to do in MidDiv.

There are two issues here. One is unique to MidDiv now that we have the Runoffs and the other is philosophical in that we have a racing classification that is excluded from participating in a club sposnored activity. Let talk about it over beers at Wheeler's party on Saturday.

[tnord]

i don't think i'll be able to make wheeler's this weekend, as i'm moving into my first house. he's close to where i live now, so i might be able to come by for a bit.

but in case i don't make it....

we very well might not be able to put on a double at HPT in the future. my understanding is that as of right now our fee for renting HPT is on a per-car basis, but given the huge numbers we'll see in the future for national events, that's likely to change. If/when we go to a flat rate, it's likely to be damn high (as Ray seems to be doing his best to gouge us for everything from garage rental to power hookups), and we might not be able to afford to put on events unless we have 100+ entries. i think a double weekend can support that number, but only under the right circumstances. We can't have the thing the first weekend in august when nobody wants to be outside, and we probably shouldn't have any other regional events there during the year to maximize our entries for that one weekend. or use the solo pad at the same time for extra $ as was done this year.

National/Regional weekends i'm pretty sure will remain the same everywhere but HPT. we just need to get that new track up and running in KC and it'll be all good.

i really don't have a problem excluding IT from national only events, as the club has to do what it has to do to make money. we can't include everyone all the time, and people will always be disappointed no matter what you do, so you act in the best interest of the group as a whole and sleep well at night.

[mustanghammer]

i don't think i'll be able to make wheeler's this weekend, as i'm moving into my first house. he's close to where i live now, so i might be able to come by for a bit.


[/b]

:birra:

Congrats on the new home!

[charrbq]

If you've ever got a question about cost escalation from regional to national, ask someone who's driven both or been in a class that's gone from one to another. I've raced FA, FF, and DP regionally and nationally...a long time ago. The $ step from one to the other was awesome! In those days a good FA engine cost $4K and, outside of a few dealer/factory efforts, you could build a competitive Datsun roadster in your garage. That's a concept I like with IT. If it goes National, then there's a good chance you can kiss that option, the new home, the kid's college fund, the IRA, and the 401K goodbye. I said good chance, so don't start quoting costs. I can tell you that the farther I've gotten into the go fast of IT, the more it's surprised me at how much I can spend, but it's so much less than a national class as to not even appear on the radar.

Ask the guy who used to race showroom stock before it became national and the price sky rocketed. Or the guy who raced American Sedan in a regional before it became a national class. Wasn't it only a couple of years ago that I saw an add for Spec Miata that had the car built as a front runner for way under $10K? You can still build one for that, but your chances of running up front are only aided by the first turn incident or the tech shed tear down (a scrutineer's joke).

As it is, the powers that be don't want IT in national racing. They use the excuse of the cars being to old to keep up with, yet they allow cars from the '50's to run production. I'm sorry, but most of the specs for those cars have been made up over the years. There's more documentation for the specs on a '68 Datsun 510 than most production cars. Probably the best bet for running ITR in national racing is to eliminate the letters "IT". Just call it "R". If you really want a chance, allow only one make of car to race, but it has to be a current model, and you have to convince a manufacturer to push it and pay for the cocktail parties.

The GCR gives us an opening for taking our cars from IT/Regional to National. It's called production. It's there, and it's even encouraged so as to support their aging classes in jepardy of elimination. But be prepared to shell out the bucks for that invitation to the Runoffs.

[lateapex911]

The GCR gives us an opening for taking our cars from IT/Regional to National. It's called production. It's there, and it's even encouraged so as to support their aging classes in jepardy of elimination. But be prepared to shell out the bucks for that invitation to the Runoffs.
[/b]

No, that's not an opening...it's an entirely different car. And an entirely different political environment.

I'd like to think that the ITAC works hard to draw logical and consistant lines, and one key philosophy is keeping the build as reasonable as possible.

Production builds are not that, and they are a moving target. Plus, as has been pointed out many times, even when something appears so obviously logical and smart, it can get turned down for obscure reasons. Whether those reasons are turf protectionism, or deep set philosphical reasons i've never understood is nearly irrelevant...it means that the landscape is constantly moving in unpredictable ways...and that can cost you a ton of time and money.

Maybe I'm missing the mark on this, but it's my perception.

[DavidM]

Some interesting info in there.

Item 18 on page 35 is the rejection of the proposed H&N restraint rule. Yay! Probably just a battle won and not the war, though.

Item 5 on page 24 seems to indicate that annual tech inspections will now be on a 12 month rolling basis instead of calender year.

Item 11 and 12 on page 24 appears to remove the reagent D test for fuel. While item 13 removes the "no black pos" (whatever that is) for the reagent A test for IT.

David

[charrbq]

No, that's not an opening...it's an entirely different car. And an entirely different political environment.


That's my point. If you want to go national, they encourage you to take your IT car and make it a production car. It can even be a legal IT car and run under the safety rules production. But if you want to run at the top, the car completely changes...and so do the rules and expense. You're dead on about the moving target. A short sentence in the GCR can cost you thousands in production modifications.
[/b]

[Andy Bettencourt]

As it is, the powers that be don't want IT in national racing. They use the excuse of the cars being to old to keep up with, yet they allow cars from the '50's to run production.
[/b]

I think the issue is that in IT, you have to run stock cranks and stock cams and stock TB's etc. For those 50 year old cars, the 'specs' aren't really needed because those items are part of the rules so it isn't hard to police...in IT it would be.

For me, there is no National category that suits me. I want the IT ruleset. I like the IT ruleset. Enough mods to be fun and an engineering challenge, yet not freaking crazy. Realize that if you don't want to run a Miata, you have to jump from a wallowing street car in SS or T all the way to Prod. There is no happy medium. The IT ruleset IS that happy medium for me.

[tnord]

the "happy medium" for people right now is SM.

[Bill Miller]

I don't think it's correct to compare Regional grids vs. National grids. SM and IT would be born from Regonal racing. The culture is different. I only know of one SM guy this year who went National racing and did no Regionals. Everyone else is doing a full Reg schdule with 3-4 Nats thrown in.

No offense intended but prep level for "Regional" Prod cars is pretty low. Why is it 95% of these cars are slower than ITA? The culture is that a top Prod guy goes to 2-3 Nationals, gets his invite and that is all the money he needs to outlay. It seems most Regional guys race for the fun of it and the National guys race because they 'have to' to get to the big dance. SM and IT culture is the opposite.

If guys in some of the wicked National classes had the option of building a top car for less money (IT) and less operating costs but could still go to the dance, I am betting IT would boom.

Again, if IT went National, NOTHING would change at the pointy end of ITA in NER...NOTHING. But in some Regions, people would flock to it and some guys would go from 5th to 15th on grid. Even with no NEW players in SM, guys who didn't prep for National caliber competition have slipped down the grid sheet and are sour because things ain't what they used to be.

Hey, I am for it - but it will hurt IT in most areas...so I am very leary of the idea.
[/b]

Andy,

What would change at Regionals if IT went National? I don't follow the logic if how making IT National would increase the fields at a Regional.

Maybe the windwo that I look through is the exception, rather than the rule, but most of the MARRS races at Summit Point draw more Prod cars than probably half the Nationals around the country. The racing is good, and people don't feel compelled to spend their kid's college fund to be competitive. To run at the pointy end of the IT field, takes some major $$$ What's a Serra Acura go for? How much did it cost to build Nick's car?

I see the fact that people can run Regionals, in National-eligible classes, and have good races and lots of fun, w/o spending what it would take to be competitive at the National level. I have yet to see any compelling arguement that says that IT wouldn't go the same way.

Will it take a $25k ITA car to be on the podium at the Runoffs? More than likely. But it probably already takes that to be on the podium at the ARRC.

[BMW RACER]

I'm with Bill on this one. It seems that most of the people who are whining about IT becoming a national class want IT to remain regional so that they can remain competitive with substandard equipment!!

The only difference I see is the cost of traveling to tracks outside of your region. IT is IT is IT. The cost of preparing a 1st class regional car should be the same as a 1st class national car, the rules are the same.

I say, bring it on, I'd love an excuse to travel to other regions. Having said that if IT went national you won't see me at the runoffs. I dont want to spend ten days to run one race!

[tnord]

IT is IT is IT. The cost of preparing a 1st class regional car should be the same as a 1st class national car, the rules are the same.[/b]

sorry, but it's not.

so this is what deja-vu feels like?

[RacerBill]

sorry, but it's not.

so this is what deja-vu feels like?
[/b]

Travis: I agree. i can remember when FV fields were divided naturally into three sub classes : the $5000 engines, the $2500 engines and the build it yourself engines.

I can remember guys who built 30 minute engines and 15 minute engines (National vs Regional)

BTW, this was back in the 60's!!!!

[Knestis]

Once again, we're not getting the full "causal" picture, here. It costs no more to build the very best, very fastest 1998 Whatever to run Nationals than it does to build the same car for Regionals. What changes is the definition of "fastest."

In 1986, I won an ITC regional championship with a stock 1.4 Alliance with OTS Konis, soft springs, and aftermarket bars. I was arguably the "fastest" ITC car in the Northwest, or at least the most consistently fast of the four or five C cars out there at that time. Put that into a different context, with more competition, and what changes is NOT the cost of preparing a car to any given level. What changes is the MOTIVATION to prepare to a level higher, at greater expense, than the racers you want to beat.

I hate to be indelicate but often times, when people complain that costs are going up, they are really complaining that the cost has gone up of maintaining whatever level of competitiveness fits their individual goals. The problem is that, when the guys/gals up front get more serious, spend more money, and gain time at the margin, the effect trickles down through the field...

Racer Rick used to be able to keep the front three pretty much in sight. When someone broke, he could end up on the podium. He had achieved his equilibrium, balancing budget and competitive goals. Rick was happy. He was spending $X per year on his racing, while the Three Fast Dudes were spending $1.2X on theirs. When five new racers came into his class because it was (gaining popularity due to whatever influence - prize money, status, contingenc dough, babe magnetism) and decided to outspend the three drivers who consistently beat Rick, he got relegated to duking it out for 8th. Worse, the previous Three Fast Dudes, long used to being able to fight for the podium for $1.2X had to step up and spend $1.8X to stay in the hunt. They got faster Rick is even more miserable.

There are a lot of variations of Rick.

There's Participant Paul, who just wants to be out there and is happy to circulate around off the pace. He's resigned to always being a backmarker, is terribly constrained by money, and doesn't really effect the dynamics of competition.

There's Super Star Steph, who's the next female Indy phenom, whose dad is willing to spend whatever it takes to be sure that she's in front. She helps establish what it takes to stay at the bleeding edge.

There's Victor Visa, who's willing to max out his cards to stay in the lead pack, but won't be there next year when the bills come due. He contributes to the cost-of-competition bloat up front, until he blows out - and gets replaced by Mastercard Mike, who does the same thing.

National Nate cares about NOTHING besides getting to the big show. He'll spend only as much as necessary to "qualify" to go to the RubOffs, and picked his class because the participation numbers are so low, he pretty much can't NOT earn the chance to spend his whole budget on one race.

Whatever Willie only cares nothing about points and only wants to race at one track close to his house, so having a National-eligible car lets him into the big Double there, giving him more tracktime wihtout traveling.

Everyone's got their reasons for playing and their budgetary thresholds of pain. When a class gets MORE POPULAR, supply and demand for the commodity of speed change. It has nothing to do directly with what its called or what the rules are.

K

[BMW RACER]

K.

I like it. That's funny and true.

You're O.K. for an ex Renault racer!

[gran racing]

No offense intended but prep level for "Regional" Prod cars is pretty low. Why is it 95% of these cars are slower than ITA?[/b]

Funny you said that. Back when I was in ITA and had no shot of being up front, Jake F. and I often half-joked about turning out cars into Prod. cars. Meaning not add any go fast stuff except maybe switch to slicks. We would have won a few regional races. Then again, there were very few Prod cars to beat.


K, I agreed with ya till here...


When a class gets MORE POPULAR, supply and demand for the commodity of speed change. It has nothing to do directly with what its called or what the rules are. [/b]

It's not just more popular - it's more popular with people who are willing to spend more money on their racing budgets. You could have many, many Participant Paul's out there and it won't impact the economy or the racing class. And yes, changing the IT class (or rules if you want to call it) does impact things, weither seen as good or bad. It may not impact if there will be the Serra's of IT, but how many. And who will come in to make that budget appear small?

Yup, there certainly is a trickle down effect in money spent. It sure would be a shame to drive Paul and Nate out of racing. I’m not sure why the class in which SCCA has defined as the entry level class should have $50K ITA, ITB, and ITC cars as the norm.

[zracre]

I must agree with K...I won the 2005 SARRC with a stock motor anf final drive...06 rolls around and it is everything I got to keep up with MVS with a built motor and FD/LSD...i do need to develop my suspension more due to more power. SM at the regional level circa 2004/2005 was nice, but as soon as the nats came there were 60+ cars out there with $$$ spent on them. More cars/higher visibility=faster groups...I dont think thats a bad thing but I really dont think the club could handle that many cars at a national...and everything that comes with that many cars in a high pressure event. Can you imagine the cheating and protests for IT cars like SM??? Yikes. IT is great for getting people to the sport and I believe that was part of the plan for it. Why change a good thing into something that would just cause more headaches and drama? I just think the SCCA should promote more IT races as big events around the country like the ARRC separate from national and have a year end invitational somewhere like Mid O or Road America with the points leaders for each division. I'm sure the participation would be there...

[tnord]

evan i think you'd end up with the same result as making the class national if SCCA promoted a big invitation only event for IT. it probably wouldn't be to the extent of the national classes because the event wouldn't be televised.....but people would still step up their spending.

with that said, i'd love to participate in something like that. i'd get smoked, but it'd be fun.

[PSherm]

There's Participant Paul, who just wants to be out there and is happy to circulate around off the pace. He's resigned to always being a backmarker, is terribly constrained by money, and doesn't really effect the dynamics of competition.

K
[/b]
Hey now, just because I drive a Neon doesn't mean you should pick on me... :lol:

[RacerBowie]

I must agree with K...I won the 2005 SARRC with a stock motor anf final drive...06 rolls around and it is everything I got to keep up with MVS with a built motor and FD/LSD...i do need to develop my suspension more due to more power. [/b]

Evan, with all due respect, you also benefitted from hitting a down year for ITA SARRC. You Obviously drove your ass off to win it with an underprepared car, but the top guys just weren't there that year.

In '01 and '02 when I won, John Wilding was running his Integra with a built engine, and we had some good battles. That was a top 3 ARRC car. My car had a fresh Sunbelt, 4.88 plus LSD, custom Konis, fresh hoosiers every 6 cycles, etc. It was about a top 5 ARRC car too. MVS won in '03 or '04, and you know his car was maxed out just as much as his 1.8 is this year.

This has shown itself this year. As you said, you have had to up your game to compete. You have done a great job of it, and will probably be in the top 5 at the ARRC for your efforts.

[zracre]

that same under prepared car qualified/finished 7th last year...hopefully better this year with a full on car B) as long as Greg's cute little small red egg doesnt have too much new top secret rocket science in it!

[Greg Amy]

Kirk, every time I hear from you it confirms your hero status...


...why the class in which SCCA has defined as the entry level class should have $50K ITA, ITB, and ITC cars as the norm.[/b]

Because that's the way the rules - pretty much designed 20 years ago - are written. Just 'cause no one has fully prepped a car until now doesn't change the fact that it could have been done back then.

Nothing's changed technically, just the attitudes, motivations, and mindsets of the participants. Nobody's HAD (or WANTED) to do it to be up front 'til now. - GA

[Charlie Broring]

Kirk, every time I hear from you it confirms your hero status...
Because that's the way the rules - pretty much designed 20 years ago - are written. Just 'cause no one has fully prepped a car until now doesn't change the fact that it could have been done back then.

Nothing's changed technically, just the attitudes, motivations, and mindsets of the participants. Nobody's HAD (or WANTED) to do it to be up front 'til now. - GA
[/b]
The origional Volvo's from Hell were the first fully preped IT cars. They were built by Prod. racers like Bob Griffith. Bob Chriss, and Phill Hunt to nearly production car standards. I hear they were not very welcome when they showed up. If you notice the Volvo's are not really dominent anymore. Everything else cought up with them.

Charlie

[JamesB]

If you notice the Volvo's are not really dominent anymore. Everything else cought up with them.

Charlie
[/b]

True, though im still trying to catch you and a few other volvos

[Bill Miller]

sorry, but it's not.

so this is what deja-vu feels like?
[/b]


You just don't get it Travis. IT has only one place to play. That means that they spend whatever it takes to run at the pointy end of the field. Look at ITA and ITS up and down the East coast. There are some big-dollar cars at almost every event.

Do you think Chet would spend more on his E36 if IT were National? Maybe, but he probably wouldn't have to, as the car is already built to the max. Same goes for a lot of cars.

What's tripping you up here, is that the National classes that are happy to run Regionals don't have to prep to the max, because the guys that do, aren't running Regionals.

A max build is a max build, regardless of where you run it. Kirk pretty much hit the nail on the head (again). :023:

[tnord]

there is a world outside of the east coast bill.

i completely agree with kirk as well, how can we both agree with the same person, yet be in disagreement with each other?

making a decision for IT based on what you experience is rather selfish (though understandable). as andy alluded to earlier, many of you guys won't have to change a thing if IT went national, because you're already prepped to the limit.

here in midiv, 99% of us would have to drop at minimum 5k on the car just to maintain our current finishing positions. what about cendiv? rocky mountain? etc etc.....what are their divisions like? i don't know. all i'm saying is a decision for ALL OF IT shouldn't be made based upon what happens in 1/3 of the country.

[Knestis]

...It's not just more popular - it's more popular with people who are willing to spend more money on their racing budgets. You could have many, many Participant Paul's out there and it won't impact the economy or the racing class.[/b]
I don't know how you could do it - since "racing" is by definition competitive, and it tends to attract competitive people - but I suppose it IS hypothetically possible that you could convince some large group of people to spend some smaller portion of what might be put into any given class or type of car. That's actually the way that 'claimer' classes work - everyone agrees to assign an artificially low value to a car or engine, to put a lid on spending. Problem is, that doesn't seem to jive with the culture of road racers, wherein cubic dollars have always purchased an advantage.


And yes, changing the IT class (or rules if you want to call it) does impact things, weither seen as good or bad. It may not impact if there will be the Serra's of IT, but how many. And who will come in to make that budget appear small?[/b]
Depending on what you mean by 'changing,' the answer I think is 'absolutely maybe.' Any change is going to either impose costs (if a change must be made to stay legal) or encourage additional spending - if it opens new ground for competitive spending. If I purchase a $20K secret to put in my ECU black box and the rules next year require that I run stock hardware, I have to pay to stay legal. If the rules are liberalized to allow standalone systems and I currently have nothing, it's not a requirement of the regulations that I spend.

If I'm competitive with a reflashed chip in a stock ECU (as is the case now with a lot of fast IT cars, right??), I'm frankly unlikely to take advantage of the new allowance. If it costs LESS than the current Black Box option but gains me a relative competitive advantage, I MIGHT step up. However, once the people in my place on the competition food chain pony up, I have a choice to make - buy the new speed or lose my place.

It's a gross generalization but yes - more liberal rules with additional allowances DO raise the ceiling potentially but (for the thousanth time) the only real constraint on spending is how much money the most enthusiastic spender is willing to part with.


... It sure would be a shame to drive Paul and Nate out of racing. I’m not sure why the class in which SCCA has defined as the entry level class should have $50K ITA, ITB, and ITC cars as the norm.[/b]
It's not possible to drive Paul and Nate out of racing. It IS possible for the culture and participants to make it tougher - or impossible, even - for them to achieve their competitive goals at their past levels of expenditure, at which point they may opt out. That there are $50K IT cars out there is NOT the result of changes in the rules: It is strictly because that's what someone decided it would take to meet his or her goals - competitive, ego, appearance, or whatever. And another someone decided to chase that someone, and the race was on.

K

[Knestis]

...here in midiv, 99% of us would have to drop at minimum 5k on the car just to maintain our current finishing positions. what about cendiv? rocky mountain? etc etc.....what are their divisions like? i don't know. all i'm saying is a decision for ALL OF IT shouldn't be made based upon what happens in 1/3 of the country. [/b]
I'm sorry - I'm just not tracking on this.

Are you suggesting that if, simply because ITA went National, you and the guys you race with would spend $5000 more than you are now each year? (Presuming that you all just continued to race Regionals.)

I don't get it. Or maybe I don't buy it.

If your thesis is that ITA would attract big spenders in KCR who want to run Nationals with an IT ruleset, who would then run Regionals and make it harder for you to compete - THAT I might accept. It's simply an effect of moving you all into a relatively larger pond, where you become relatively smaller fish. However, it's equally plausible that the very forces that make your current position possible would NOT change...

ITA in NER is competitive and expensive largely because it has a lot of entries. It seems likely that it takes less $$ to be competitive in KCR because there just aren't so many people competing. Taking ITA National would not automagically make ITA more popular in your region, IF what is holding down current participation numbers is low participation ACROSS THE CLASSES AS A WHOLE. I seriously doubt that IT going National is enough to suddenly shift a bunch of people off their couches and into Nomex jammies with SCCA patches on them. And without that additional competitive pressure, there's little inducement for additional spending.

Or maybe I don't understand your point...?

K

[dickita15]

Whatever Willie only cares nothing about points and only wants to race at one track close to his house, so having a National-eligible car lets him into the big Double there, giving him more tracktime wihtout traveling.

K
[/b]

Well I suppose Willy could decide to drive an IT car and that would make ITA more popular. I was surprised when I stopped in at Texas World Speedway a couple of years ago how few IT cars there were. Then I found out that there schedule was a lot of nationals and national regional weekends. If you races IT you had half the races available.

[Knestis]

Being something of a Willy myself (shut up, ya bums), while he might add an entry to ITA, I don't know that he'd be likely to push the spending envelope, whatever class I was in. Oops - HE was in.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

here in midiv, 99% of us would have to drop at minimum 5k on the car just to maintain our current finishing positions. what about cendiv? rocky mountain? etc etc.....what are their divisions like? i don't know. all i'm saying is a decision for ALL OF IT shouldn't be made based upon what happens in 1/3 of the country. [/b]

You would only have to spend more if one of your competitors did - and you felt the need to take the equipment out of the equation and keep up.

I think a point to be made is that keeping IT Regional only is a decision based on what is what would be good for the majority (the 2/3rds) you may represent.

I don't mind it - and actually want it - because I know NOTHING in my program would change and I would love to go and get my ass kicked in Topeka by some of my .com friends. The best think for the category may just be to keep it simple - unless the local 'economy' of your regional competitivenss dictates otherwise.

[Greg Amy]

...I would love to go and get my ass kicked in Topeka by some of my .com friends.[/b]
What's wrong: getting your ass kicked locally by your REAL friends isn't enough???


:lol:

(Har-de-har! Sorry, couldn't pass it up; he knows I'm kidding...)

[tnord]

I'm sorry - I'm just not tracking on this.

Are you suggesting that if, simply because ITA went National, you and the guys you race with would spend $5000 more than you are now each year? (Presuming that you all just continued to race Regionals.)

I don't get it. Or maybe I don't buy it.

If your thesis is that ITA would attract big spenders in KCR who want to run Nationals with an IT ruleset, who would then run Regionals and make it harder for you to compete - THAT I might accept. It's simply an effect of moving you all into a relatively larger pond, where you become relatively smaller fish. However, it's equally plausible that the very forces that make your current position possible would NOT change...

ITA in NER is competitive and expensive largely because it has a lot of entries. It seems likely that it takes less $$ to be competitive in KCR because there just aren't so many people competing. Taking ITA National would not automagically make ITA more popular in your region, IF what is holding down current participation numbers is low participation ACROSS THE CLASSES AS A WHOLE. I seriously doubt that IT going National is enough to suddenly shift a bunch of people off their couches and into Nomex jammies with SCCA patches on them. And without that additional competitive pressure, there's little inducement for additional spending.

Or maybe I don't understand your point...?

K
[/b]

actually, i think taking ITA national would automagically make ITA more popular.

right now there's pretty much only 1 car in ITA with a "pro" motor, which is a CRX from OPM. if IT went national, it would attract a good number of the SM guys and their prep levels. i also think it might attract some prod guys, as they now have to spend less in build costs and maintenance for the car in order to make it to the big dance. this effectively increases the level of competition in the group, and creates an environment which forces us to try and keep up with one another. since pretty much nobody has a pro motor, there's your instant 5k extra expense.

we also have a unique situation in that we have combined national/regional weekends, so quite a good number of people who race in the national on sunday also race the regional on saturday.

[Andy Bettencourt]

What's wrong: getting your ass kicked locally by your REAL friends isn't enough???


:lol:

(Har-de-har! Sorry, couldn't pass it up; he knows I'm kidding...) [/b]

Come to LRP and prove that! :birra:

[IPRESS]

When Shannon and DDG started SM I asked if we would race at Mid Ohio (the Runoffs) and Shannon explained that SM would be a Regional Class. I asked why not a National Class and his response was " This is being setup to be the cheapest user friendly class in club racing. Going national would defeat that purpose."

Being there through the whole process from just about day one, I have to say he knew what he was talking about. I have found that racers will spend whatever they can to have as fast a car as they can. There are exceptions, but not many. I decided to come over to IT because I don't have the time to run a ton of races. I also felt SM has sort of gone from a entry type class to "needing to have the inside knowledge" of prep to have a decent (not top of the grid) car. IT has development which is fun, at least I think more fun then the type development that is in SS/SM classes. SM is a great class and a great success story for club racing. It has brought a ton of people who probably would have never done any wheel to wheel racing into the sport. (There can be some bad points to that too.) I am sure that I will still run an SM race or two in a friends car each year. I was a huge supporter of SM having the chance to go national. I raised holy hell to make sure SM was not shut out like IT. (I mainly wanted SM to get the same track time as National classes had in our DIV.) Lots of things that experienced racers warned about on going from Regional to National have taken place. Not all of them are bad things, they just make the class different. It IS a Price of Poker thing. I have found out after being involved with the Region Board and more years of racing under my belt, that Regional racing is a little more laid back, a little more like the old days of racing, a little friendlier. That seems to fit my program so here I am. If you want to push for National status I would help, as I hate the "you can never be a national class" part of the class rules. So for that alone I would support at least a chance to be national. On the otherside...... Be careful what you wish for.

[Greg Amy]

Come to LRP and prove that! :birra:
[/b]

DOH!!

[mustanghammer]

actually, i think taking ITA national would automagically make ITA more popular.

right now there's pretty much only 1 car in ITA with a "pro" motor, which is a CRX from OPM. if IT went national, it would attract a good number of the SM guys and their prep levels. i also think it might attract some prod guys, as they now have to spend less in build costs and maintenance for the car in order to make it to the big dance. this effectively increases the level of competition in the group, and creates an environment which forces us to try and keep up with one another. since pretty much nobody has a pro motor, there's your instant 5k extra expense.

we also have a unique situation in that we have combined national/regional weekends, so quite a good number of people who race in the national on sunday also race the regional on saturday.
[/b]


I have a "pro" motor built by Prather Racing and James Stevens has a Tuxedo Park "pro" motor. Pro built motors are not at all uncommon in Midiv IT racing and most of the cars have professionally built cages and suspensions too. My car is more home spun than most but thats because its previous and current owners have fabrications skills. Home-built is just as good as Pro built.

As far as SM is concerned it is still a National class that you can buy into for 10-12K (there were two decent cars for sale at HPT in August) and it is a car that has a low operating cost. I would be satisfied with an ITA car that is Nationals eligible that operated in the same financial sphere. Production cars, even cheap ones like an EP RX7 don't.

Now would racing my ITA car in National races cost more? Yes. The races are longer so I would burn more gas and wear out tires faster. Maintenance cycles would have to shorten and my travel budget would have to expand. I willingly accept the pain....bring it on.

[bldn10]

CAUTION: PERSONAL EDITORIAL COMMENT - MAY BE TOO UNPOPULAR FOR SOME READERS

As will be in full evidence in a few weeks in Topeka, there are a lot of drivers in the SCCA who will spend big bucks for an SCCA National Championship. If IT goes National, I agree w/ others' belief that IT will attract a good number of National SM, prod, AS, and other drivers. Those guys, along w/ those of similar depth of pocket already in IT, will spend whatever it takes to win an IT National Championship. The front-running IT cars nationwide will be National-level prepped cars and they will annihilate local/Regional competitors who dare run w/ them. The latter will be relegated to 2nd class Regional, or ClubIT status, and winning the Division or ARRC (assuming the ARRC would survive) will never have the same meaning again. As it is now, everyone runs w/ the top cars and Division championships and good ARRC finishes do have meaning because, although there are front-runners and back-markers, everyone runs in 1st class. This certainly does not mean that Regional IT racing wouldn't be fun or will die out, but I do think it will take the gloss off of it. Personally, I prefer being a mid-packer the way it is now to a back-marker in National or even a front-runner in 2-tier Regional.

IT is Regional-only because it was intended that way to try to keep costs down. The fact that some people spend huge amounts in IT is not a valid argument that the class philosophy is a failure so we should just chuck it- it is a valid argument that we (and Topeka) have failed the class philosophy w/ rules creep, resulting in more expense to remain competitive. IT cars do not need to be made to go faster and faster every year - we are not competing w/ prod or anyone else. Average speeds across the board will naturally go up over time due to modernization of the "fleet," and we do not need to constantly open up the rules in sake of speed. The whole class stucture of SCCA is premised on providing a class step-up for anyone who wants to go faster. You guys who want to spend more $, go faster, and go to The Runoffs - why don't you just go EP or T3? That is the natural order of things. I want IT to stay the Regional-only, "entry-level" class in SCCA. Sure, I would love to go to The Runoffs and I think National-level IT would be a real hoot, but that is just not the way it is, and I can simply move "up" if I want that bad enough.

The only scenario in which I would support National IT is if it attracted lots of drivers from outside SCCA [NASA, BMWCCA, PCA, track-days] - so many that Regional racing would continue to have significance w/ decent fields and prep levels. Otherwise, even if National IT might actually grow the class, simply shuffling the same drivers around in existing classes is of no benefit to the Club as a whole.

[lateapex911]

CAUTION: PERSONAL EDITORIAL COMMENT - MAY BE TOO UNPOPULAR FOR SOME READERS

..... Those guys, along w/ those of similar depth of pocket already in IT, will spend whatever it takes to win an IT National Championship. ....[/b]

I doubt that they will spend whatever it takes....thats an absolute, and we all know that if you want to (or will) spend that kind of cash, you'll just go Grand Am or Speed World Challenge and at least get some TV exposure, LOL.

The front-running IT cars nationwide will be National-level prepped cars and they will annihilate local/Regional competitors who dare run w/ them. [/b]

Hmmm look around...that's the case already. In certain parts of the cuntry, at least.


..........- it is a valid argument that we (and Topeka) have failed the class philosophy w/ rules creep, resulting in more expense to remain competitive. [/b]

Really?? Cite some examples of needless rules creep that have resulted in forcing prep levels and expense to go up...in the last, oh...say 5-10 years.

To me, the single most significant reason that IT sees the popularity it does is the ruleset and prep level. Many people like the level of prep...not too much, not too little, just right.


........and we do not need to constantly open up the rules in sake of speed. [/b]

Again, "constantly"???... help me out with some concrete examples.


The whole class stucture of SCCA is premised on providing a class step-up for anyone who wants to go faster. You guys who want to spend more $, go faster, and go to The Runoffs - why don't you just go EP or T3? [/b]

TONS of reasons! (and nobody's talking about 'going faster'...just beign part of the bigger scene.)
Reasons such as, for EP: Much higher prep level requiring more work, more parts, more engineering, and the attendant expenses. And the political snakepit that has resulted in infighting, turf protectionism, unequal rules decisions, and so on. Who wants to spend a fortune, then be relegated to the back because someone else /got a weight break? IT, by comparision (over the long course) is MUCH more stable, and utilizes a process that is, to be honest, an example to the rest of the categories.
As for T3, the answer is two fold. One, EXPENSE! Buy a brand new car, spend big money prepping all the little things, then risk throwing it all away in one mistake. More expensive to repiar after an incident, and so on. Basically, SS and T classes are 'depreciation" classes. Then there's the total lack of competition, which could be related to the first point. Look, T exists for the manufacturers...we all know that.


The only scenario in which I would support National IT is if it attracted lots of drivers from outside SCCA [NASA, BMWCCA, PCA, track-days] - so many that Regional racing would continue to have significance w/ decent fields and prep levels. Otherwise, even if National IT might actually grow the class, simply shuffling the same drivers around in existing classes is of no benefit to the Club as a whole.
[/b]

I think if you have what is essentially the most popular prep level category in the club (except SM) and it's not National, you are't going to attract as many 'outsiders' as you would if it were National.

[dj10]

I doubt that they will spend whatever it takes....thats an absolute, and we all know that if you want to (or will) spend that kind of cash, you'll just go Grand Am or Speed World Challenge and at least get some TV exposure, LOL.

Really?? Cite some examples of needless rules creep that have resulted in forcing prep levels and expense to go up...in the last, oh...say 5-10 years.
[/b]



I've seen all kind of BIG cash spent on regionals.....just go to ARRC and look around.



Speaking of forcing expenses to go up! How about the ECU rule? It could cost 1500.00 to put a EMS in most any car, but they way the rule reads it cost about 10K to put a EMS in some IT cars! This is the reality of IT.

[lateapex911]

I've been to te ARRCs.....I know whats there, and it's not Real Time or Georgia Bay Motorsports money. I cite them as Eric Curren, former ITB guy drives on both teams...

I knew the ECU rule would be the first item cited.

I hate it too. But it is a classic poster child that shows how technology changes over the years can force rules changes.

Initially, in the IT stone age, ECUs didn't exist. Then they appeared, and cars were classed based on no ECU mods. Of course, it was quickly apparent that essentially stock ECUs was unenforceable, so they decided to allow chips, which led to the "in the box" rule. Whicjh of course resulted in competition inequalities, as the cars were classed with stock ECUs. Ugg...in a category that allowed NO post classification adjustments, THAT was big trouble. We have just now gotten ourselves out of the thicket.

Of course technology marches on, and we're now looking at a case where the rule results in extra expense. Sadly the march of time is the real culrpit here.

But...lets ask the question, should the rule be opened further?? Thats creep, right???
There are legions of threads here listing the positives and negatives of such an idea, and it is anything but a straight and easy to follow path.

Still, the masses are either happy with the status quo, or aren't inspired enough to come up with a solution...because as far as I can remember, the ITAC hasn't gotten a single letter/proposal about the matter in over a year.

[dj10]

I knew the ECU rule would be the first item cited.

I hate it too. But it is a classic poster child that shows how technology changes over the years can force rules changes.

Still, the masses are either happy with the status quo, or aren't inspired enough to come up with a solution...because as far as I can remember, the ITAC hasn't gotten a single letter/proposal about the matter in over a year. [/b]



Jake, it's simple to me. Allow aftermarket EMS in replace of Factory ECU's and don't allow extra sensors except O2's. You've just opened up additional hp without costing someone an arm and a leg. You can get EMS's for 800. to 4k.

[Z3_GoCar]

......

Of course technology marches on, and we're now looking at a case where the rule results in extra expense. Sadly the march of time is the real culrpit here.

But...lets ask the question, should the rule be opened further?? Thats creep, right???
There are legions of threads here listing the positives and negatives of such an idea, and it is anything but a straight and easy to follow path.

Still, the masses are either happy with the status quo, or aren't inspired enough to come up with a solution...because as far as I can remember, the ITAC hasn't gotten a single letter/proposal about the matter in over a year.
[/b]

Hey Jake,

I'd write the letter. I may be the poster child for allowing aftermarket standalone EMS systems. I realize that I'd need to change from the current MAP sensor based system to a MAF sensor, but it'd probably be a couple of hours of dyno time, but to be IT legal the other way would easily be 5-10k that Dan's talking about. I'd guess that someone could pick up my TECII system real cheap as it's considered antiquated late '90s technology. Sorry for any pot stirring with my ECM thread.

James

[lateapex911]

James....pot stirring is good.

The great thing about this forum is that the discussions are ussually productive. Information is key.

The ECU thing is a real tricky issue, but I do think it's getting to a point that it needs a good looking at.

One thing that this ITAC is aware of is the need to be proactive, but in a reasonable and conservative manner, if that makes any sense, LOL.

Years ago when I was beating the PCA drum, one of the main reasons I saw the need for them was to right the past wrongs of rules changes like the ECU rule. At the time, there were no great options, and the ad hoc probably chose what it felt was the lesser of evils.

We're in a different place now.

[gprodracer]

Jake and all,

I'll first state that I would personally hate to see IT go National, for many of the reasons that Bill and others have stated, plus a few of my own. However, my own views are not necessarily what is good for the class. My question would be..what would take its place as the "entry level" class? What class can you get in to as inexpensively as IT, and still pretty much always have someone to race with? I'm a bit of an old IT purist, so I am afraid that going National will do to IT exactly what you say is going on in Production right now (although it is not nearly as bad as some proclaim now). I'm afraid that IT becoming National will run off more people, and allow fewer people to get started, rather than grow it as some may predict. I hate it, but I have to use Spec Miata as a classic example. Look how far away from the original premise of that class it has gone. I understand that people will always outspend others, but IT, even at its highest spending level now, is still the best "bang for your buck" class in SCCA. I chose to go to Prod because it allows me more freedom to do my own development, and do National races. It is the next level of progression for me, but I still love IT racing, enduros etc.

What will replace this level of competition on a budget that the average person can fulfil their dream of "going racing", and getting to drive on world famous racetracks? I would love to see the concept of this "gentlemans sport" continue.

Sorry if this was long winded, but I know that all of us want the best for our club. We all need to come to an agreement as to how we can accomplish it.

Thanks for listening.

Mark

[dj10]

James....pot stirring is good.

The great thing about this forum is that the discussions are ussually productive. Information is key.

The ECU thing is a real tricky issue, but I do think it's getting to a point that it needs a good looking at.

One thing that this ITAC is aware of is the need to be proactive, but in a reasonable and conservative manner, if that makes any sense, LOL.

We're in a different place now. [/b]



Jake, I really agree with your statements here. This is 2006 and with time there are changes. Lets make them positive and for the greater good. I'd like to see a committee formed (or ITAC) to study and make solid recommendations for the ECU/ EMS rule. It's time to allow the many to benefit from a EMS rather than a few.

[JoshS]

What will replace this level of competition on a budget that the average person can fulfil their dream of "going racing", and getting to drive on world famous racetracks? I would love to see the concept of this "gentlemans sport" continue.
[/b]I know this is a never-ending discussion, but I just simply don't get it. No one is talking about changing the rules in order to make the class eligible to run at National races.

Two things would happen:
1) The class is available at National races. So people who want to compete at National races and at the Runoffs might start driving IT cars. They very well might out-spend a lot of current people in IT.

2) A fraction of those people mentioned above might choose to also drive their car at Regional races. Their higher budget and possibly higher talent might take away some of the podium positions from people who are there now.

Now, I personally believe that #2 will be a very minor effect, as at least out here on the west coast, there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of crossover between regional and national drivers. Some National drivers don't even run the regional race at a regional/national weekend.

But even if I'm wrong about that, I don't think that this #2 effect would actually cause the problem that the question above poses. IT could STILL allow the average person to (your words): "fulfill their dream of going racing, and getting to drive on world famous racetracks."

[Fi3555]

The blessing of SCCA Nat. status doesn't mean jack ! Just look at the ARRC . The level of competitiveness is equal to the runoffs;fine driving and well prepared cars !! There are cars at both races running at the front and some running 3 to 5 secs. off the mark. How accomplished your driving is and how much time and money you spend on R&D is the real outcome. Sure money can make one faster but it rarely buys skill. But life's not fair so we all need to drive well and hope to win the lottery !!
Good luck at the ARRC and/or next season !

Tim
#97 ITB Golf
#11 GP Golf 2007

[mattbatson]

I agree with Bill and others. IT shouldnt go national...

IT is the whole reason I got into racing in the first place. If there was no IT, I would still be watching from the sidelines. Nice and cheap.
I like the class because it isnt as "serious" as the national classes. It seems that if racers know they will get good T.V. coverage at the runoffs with a top ten finish, they will go very, very deep into their wallets. The prestige of being in SportsCar magazine and possibly on T.V. is what causes people to spend over 50 thousand on a race car.

IT is where it is at for the entry level racer, such as myself...
More of a low stress kind of racing. No one is fighting tooth and nail for a regional class, or spending their childrens college fund.

I know that in the future I will move up to production or SM. I also know that this is when I will have to start spending the money. And everything will get more serious and stressfull.

Maybe in a year or two :rolleyes:

[Knestis]

Sorry, Mark but I think that your anticipated outcomes derive from faulty assumptions. It will still cost exactly the same to buy a $4000 ITC Scirocco as it currently costs to buy a $4000 Scirocco - about $4000.

It is POSSIBLE that increased interest in IT cars, were the class to go national, would increase the resale value in the market but that kind of force would "float all boats," giving the guy that now has to pay $5000 for that same car the chance to sell it for more, too.

Anyone who was drinking the $5000 Spec Miata KoolAid was ignoring the reality that as soon as it got popular, the spending wars would be on. That's what happens.

In inverse of that is, when a class is NOT so popular, it becomes less expensive to be competitive, and I have a sneaking suspicion that this is what folks are using as their benchmark, when they worry out loud about "costs going up in IT." I frankly hear that mostly from people who race IT cars in places where there just aren't very many - where they can run competitively without having to pony up for expensive parts. Back during the restrictor wars, we heard from a guy who was running an ITS BMW 325 in the Northwest, who described a car that was about 60% done. He can get away with that, and be competitive in the SCCA wasteland that is NW Region, but that doesn't represent reality in a lot of places.

Now, the question - posed earlier - about which geographic reality matters more when making a decision for the whole National program IS a good one, about which reasonable people can differ.

K

[gprodracer]

Kirk,

You are obviously more well versed in the climate of competitive IT cars in todays environment. Again, my personal opinion about the direction of where IT is heading is only my opinion about securing the growth of the class, not what may ultimately be the best path. Your example of the $4000 Scirocco actually proves part of my point...that the extra $1000 in initial cost to get started may be the inhibitor for many people to get started in racing. Buy a car for $4000, and spend the other $1000 for drivers suit, helmet, and school entry fees. Am I making sense here?

As for the Spec Miata "Kool Aid", compare the original one page rule set with the current pages of rules they have now. Again, I am admittedly a sort of purist, with the (here's that word again) original "intent" of the formation of the class. Lots of cash and lobbying for more "liberal" interpretations of the original rules,plus the rush to make the class National have driven the costs of building a mid pack car up thru the roof.

I just fear that IT going National will produce the same effect, and it will cause more harm than good. If it does go National, then I hope I am completely wrong, and IT grows stronger. My question about what class will take over as the "entry level" class that the average Joe can begin in has not been answered though.

I'm open to all ideas, so let me know.

Mark

[JoshS]

My question about what class will take over as the "entry level" class that the average Joe can begin in has not been answered though.
[/b]
IT will still be the entry level category (more than one class, of course.) As I asked in response to your previous post (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9043&st=60#), why wouldn't it be?

Is it that you're expecting this average joe newbie to be able to win in his first race? That's unrealistic, National status or not.

[mattbatson]

I have an idea..

Our new entry level class will be what IT used to be...same car's as in IT now...but no ECU's, no open final drives, no coil overs, no engine modifications (like port matching, .5 compression bump, etc.).

Then national IT could be like a "pre-production" class :P

The new class could be called "improved showroom stock".
Basically, you throw some shocks and springs and brake pads at your car and get out on the racetrack!!

I would sell my IT car in a second to join that class!

[gprodracer]

Josh,

What I have tried to get across to everyone is that if IT were to go National, the average cost of ANY class of IT car will increase as the level of spending to compete at the front goes up. That "might" make the difference in whether the average newbie can now afford to come race with us. From my own standpoint, had it cost $1000 more to attend my 1st drivers school, it would have delayed me for a year.

That is my point.... that the $$$ wars will escalate very quickly, and I'm afraid that it might keep more people out than draw people in.

Of course, I may be completely full of crap.

Keep fighting for what you feel is in the best interest of IT.


Good Luck,

Mark

[JoshS]

What I have tried to get across to everyone is that if IT were to go National, the average cost of ANY class of IT car will increase as the level of spending to compete at the front goes up. That "might" make the difference in whether the average newbie can now afford to come race with us. From my own standpoint, had it cost $1000 more to attend my 1st drivers school, it would have delayed me for a year.
[/b]
I guess I'm just dense tonight. I don't get it. Why won't the same $4K Scirocco still work at that first school, or for that matter, in the first couple of seasons of racing? Why does the allowance for people to drive IT cars at National races make the cost go up?

I understand that the cost might go up to win (but as I said earlier, I don't think the difference at regional races will change much), but I just can't fathom why the cost would go up to go to a school or just to compete at your average regional race weekend. The rules wouldn't be changing, and the same cars would still be legal.

What am I missing?

[Bill Miller]

I feel pretty confident in saying that the winning ITS car at the ARRC this year will cost more than the winning FP car at the Runoffs this year, but the FP car is faster.

Bill (Denton),

Having IT get National status is not going to increase the cost of getting into the game. I've said it several times, you've got plenty of folks running National-eligible classes, at Regionals, having a blast, as well as good racing, for less than it would cost them to run Nationals. You don't have National guys comming in and 'poaching' at the Regionals. That goes for Prod cars, AS cars, SS cars, Touring cars, SRFs, etc., etc. Those are several examples that contradict the claim by you and others that the folks that run Nationals in IT will come back and push the Regional guys farther down the grid. And please, ITS is hardly what I'd call an 'entry level' class, unless you want to run in the lower half of the field. And what do you think is going to happen w/ ITR next year? $50k+ cars will be all over the place.

You also say that you'd rather run as a mid-pack car in the current system, than at the back of the pack at Nationals, or at the front of what you refer to as '2nd tier' Regional races. Don't you see that as the least bit condescending and insulting to the people that currently choose to run Regional races w/ National-eligible cars?

I think what a lot of people are really afraid of, and 'afraid' may not be the right word. But anyway, here's the way I see it. People like the idea of big IT fields at Regionals, and are afraid those fields will dwindle if IT goes National.

Look at AS. It started as a Regional class, and got the numbers and went National. How many guys that run Nationals in AS do you see show up at Regionals? Did costs go up for the guys that run at the pointy end of the National fields? Yep, but top National-level AS cars are still cheaper than top ITS cars, and are about what top ITA cars cost. Yet AS is faster than both of those classes. I just looked at some of the results of the MARRS races from Summit Point this year, they get about as many AS cars as they do ITS cars.

Kirk pretty much hit the nail on the head, and others have echoed it. It won't cost more for a top-level IT car (if IT went National), than it does today, in areas where there is a high level of competition. Look at the NARRC, MARRS, and SARRC series. The top of the ITS and ITA grids are all pretty much max-boogie cars w/ serious development efforts and some very skilled drivers. It's other areas, where there isn't that much competition, where guys are running at the front w/ less than full-tilt efforts.

[Z3_GoCar]

I guess I'm just dense tonight. I don't get it. Why won't the same $4K Scirocco still work at that first school, or for that matter, in the first couple of seasons of racing? Why does the allowance for people to drive IT cars at National races make the cost go up?

I understand that the cost might go up to win (but as I said earlier, I don't think the difference at regional races will change much), but I just can't fathom why the cost would go up to go to a school or just to compete at your average regional race weekend. The rules wouldn't be changing, and the same cars would still be legal.

What am I missing?
[/b]

Josh,

It's the same reason that our 40k track house sold for 650k, when the market's inflated in one end it draws up the cost in all sectors. The $4K Scirocco is based on a used race car, but if the guy's at the front are getting $40k for their full prep and multiple podium Scirocco, do you really think the guy selling the just adaquate Scirocco would just settle for $4k? HE!! NO he'd be a fool to ask less than $10k - $15k. Hey besides the finder banging in SM, I looked at purchasing a consistant top 10 finishing SM. It was a sister car to Justin Hall's who got $35k for the one he won the West Coast series with. But for close to the same money as the sister car I got my Z3 instead. Sure it's got the 2.8liter motor, but ITR's around the corner and after a season of ITE I'll be ready for a change. My point is that because Hall got 35k for his car, the sister car was worth more too, and that trickle down stopped me from purchasing a SM to convert into an ITA Miata. Trickle down affects all race cars even the ones that just meet the letter of the safety law to get out on the track.

My fear is, and this may seem ironic to some, that a switch to National status will lead to a faster rules creep. At the heart of IT is the stock motor, transmission, brakes, and suspension. Most of these aspects are fiddled with in Production and GT. IT's appeal is in the allowance of minor bolt-on's that don't really make the cars that much faster, but increase the race car like nature of our racers. I'd been interested in IT since the late '80s when I'd first heard about it. So I feel like this has been a long time in the making.

James

[lateapex911]

I'm confused when I read that IT becoming national would eliminate the "Entry level" category. Why?? It can't be financial. I can go buy $5000 prod cars all day long. But I won't...the ruleset, and the stability turn me off.

But I COULD, if I didn't care about my level of competiveness, go buy a Prod car as my "entry level" efffort.

But people don't typically choose Prod as an entry. Why? Because the prep level is beyond many.

So.............if we don't change the IT ruleset and prep level, WHY would it cease to be entry level???? Answer...it won't. Now, if it's more popular, of course it will be harder to be the fastest guy, so a newbie, or an expert, will have more trouble winning. That's just pure statistics.

What I'm reading is that some resistance is being offered, as Kirk points out, on a geographic basis. And of course, I suppose it sucks to be doing well, as the BMW guy in the NW was doing with a partial build, then being relegated to the back when more serious efforts show up, forcing you to get more serious. On the other hand.......you could look at it another way...some guys in other parts of the country are running the same effort, but have never even sniffed a trophy. Glass half full? or half empty? Seems to me it's dependent on where you are.

What if..............we made ITR, ITS, and ITA National, and left ITB and ITC Regional only?

[lateapex911]

Josh,


My fear is, and this may seem ironic to some, that a switch to National status will lead to a faster rules creep.

James
[/b]

But why?? Sure, there might need to be some rules wording that needs to be tightened up, but why creep?

I follow your concept on the trickle down, but it's also dependent on build costs, and the cheap entrycars you mention are cheap builds. Certain car costs will go up, but it will still be possible to buy a car off the street cheap, throw a cage in it and go racing.

[Bill Miller]

I'm confused when I read that IT becoming national would eliminate the "Entry level" category. Why?? It can't be financial. I can go buy $5000 prod cars all day long. But I won't...the ruleset, and the stability turn me off.

But I COULD, if I didn't care about my level of competiveness, go buy a Prod car as my "entry level" efffort.

But people don't typically choose Prod as an entry. Why? Because the prep level is beyond many.

So.............if we don't change the IT ruleset and prep level, WHY would it cease to be entry level???? Answer...it won't. Now, if it's more popular, of course it will be harder to be the fastest guy, so a newbie, or an expert, will have more trouble winning. That's just pure statistics.

What I'm reading is that some resistance is being offered, as Kirk points out, on a geographic basis. And of course, I suppose it sucks to be doing well, as the BMW guy in the NW was doing with a partial build, then being relegated to the back when more serious efforts show up, forcing you to get more serious. On the other hand.......you could look at it another way...some guys in other parts of the country are running the same effort, but have never even sniffed a trophy. Glass half full? or half empty? Seems to me it's dependent on where you are.


[/b]

You pretty much hit it Jake. I bought my HP Rabbit for <$5k, and looking at it, I would call it an entry-level car. Sure, it had some nice stuff on it (lexan windows, fiberglass hood, Wilwood brakes, etc.), but it&#39;s a pretty basic car. Did it cost more to build than I paid for it? Sure, but show me a used race car that doesn&#39;t, regardless of class. I didn&#39;t think it was going to be a top National car when I bought it. I bought it because I wanted to race w/ my friends that had Prod cars, and ran the MARRS series. And looking at it objectively, it wouldn&#39;t cost me any more to run than my old ITB Rabbit GTI would. In some ways, it may be more economical, because I can do things like use better hubs that don&#39;t need to be replaced every 4-6 weekends. And an 11:1 VW motor w/ an IT-prep head, and a limited cam lift is not some 16:1 hand grenade British tractor motor. I&#39;ll probably save money on tires too, because instead of $600 - $700 for a new set of Hoosier R6&#39;s, I can get take-off slicks from the National guys for $100 - $200 a set, and they&#39;ll last just as long. It&#39;s all about what and where you want to run, as well as what your overall program is. I could care less if I ever go to the Runoffs, but it&#39;s nice to have the option of running a National or two that&#39;s close to me.


What if..............we made ITR, ITS, and ITA National, and left ITB and ITC Regional only?[/b]

Please explain your logic behind this one. Is it because there are primarily new cars in ITR/S/A? Is it because they seem to be better subscribed (and probably are)? What?


As far as the rules creep thing, that&#39;s another red herring. What kind of rules creep has SS gone through in the last 5-10 years? You can&#39;t point to Prod and say that will happen to IT, if it goes National. Could it? Sure, but I think we have some pretty sharp people on the ITAC, and given their track record, I don&#39;t see it happening (unless it gets pushed down from the top).

[tnord]

this is so frustrating. i&#39;ve been through this before.

a $4000 shitbox is still a $4000 shitbox no doubt. but to maintain your current finishing position in nationals that you had in regionals, everyone below probably about 5th will end up spending more. and even you guys at the front will end up spending more to keep your cars fully prepped at all times because there is so much more at stake. and oh yeah, national entry fee&#39;s and liscensing are more expensive too.


actually.....whatever.......i&#39;ve fought these types of battles before, and it&#39;s just not worth the effort. seeya on the grid next year......maybe.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I have said this before, going National wouldn&#39;t change my budget one dollar. I use my tires for 8 heat cycles and my car is maxed out. I attend 6-8 test days a year in an effort to tweak suspension and driver. Where I end up on the results sheet is the best I can do that day, 1st or last.

I think the proponents of National classification want a real Championship event. Plain and simple. The thought process on my side is that the ruleset is the ruleset. The parameters are set. If you are &#39;lucky&#39; enough to be in a Region where you you don&#39;t have to prep to 100% to be at the front, you are exactly that, LUCKY. There is nothing stopping anyone from driving up in a Bimmerworld E36 or a Flatout Miata or an ISC RX-7 and running in your class. What do you do then? Find another &#39;easy&#39; class - or step your game up?

Will the AVERAGE prep level of IT cars go up across the country? I think so, but you are already constrained by those prep standards now, you have just been LUCKY.

The IT ruleset is awesome. It has it&#39;s issues, but it is better than SS and WAY better (for me) than Prod. Bring your A game. Oh ya, a class like:
but no ECU&#39;s, no open final drives, no coil overs, no engine modifications (like port matching, .5 compression bump, etc.).[/b] is effectively Touring.

As has been said, you will still be able to buy a cheap IT car to get into it. If you are happy with racing in the middle, the more power to you. If you are upset that you put a 75% effort in and can&#39;t win, I suggest the only thing that will satisfy you is a government job. In anything we do, we must see what it COULD take to be the best at it, and prepare accordingly. The groundwork is in place.

[lateapex911]

this is so frustrating. i&#39;ve been through this before.

a $4000 shitbox is still a $4000 shitbox no doubt. but to maintain your current finishing position in nationals that you had in regionals, everyone below probably about 5th will end up spending more. and even you guys at the front will end up spending more to keep your cars fully prepped at all times because there is so much more at stake. and oh yeah, national entry fee&#39;s and liscensing are more expensive too.
actually.....whatever.......i&#39;ve fought these types of battles before, and it&#39;s just not worth the effort. seeya on the grid next year......maybe.
[/b]



Ahh...Travis, now I&#39;m getting it. I italicized the key part.

I used to run my RX-7 and be OK ...in a 20 car ITA field at Lime Rock, I&#39;d be top 6. Then the game started stepping up. Everyone saw Blaney kick butt in his CRX, and Serra kick Blaneys butt, (OK, not kick, and not all the time) in his Integras, and the next thing you know, I was running faster times, but qualifying 12th, behind under prepped CRXs and Integras.

To me, that was a failure in the classification process, and I tried to do something about it.

But conversly, even though the classification issues are largely fixed, I bet I&#39;m still 12th, LOL. Why?? Because other cars have now beeen given a chance, and they have stepped up their game. We have an NX2000, Integras, Miatas, CRXs, and on any given day, the win could go to one of a number of cars. And it&#39;s thick right behind them too.

But thats cool...my times are better, but I&#39;m gridded worse. I was lucky before that there wasn&#39;t the depth of fast cars, and I was able to sneak some good runs in. But I&#39;ve never gotten a trophy for 6th, nor 12th, and the racing is great with many of the same guys I raced for 12th with. Still fun. Just the number has changed.

And thats not such a bad thing, unless I need to feed my ego....but 6th won&#39;t do that.

[lateapex911]

Please explain your logic behind this one. Is it because there are primarily new cars in ITR/S/A? Is it because they seem to be better subscribed (and probably are)? What?

[/b]


Well Bill, I was really just thinking out loud. Seems to me that the newer cars are mostly in R, S and A. The top brass has issues with is having old cars at the Runoffs, which is why (one of the reasons, as I understand it) the rejection of the IT National idea came from up top. B and C do have older cars, and subscription is starting to fade a bit, esp in C. I think in the areas of the country that IT itself is doing well, B does well too.

But B and C, more than the rest, are great entry level classes, due to the fact that you can buy built solid cars all day long for 4 or 5K, and actually go and grab a trophy or two with those cars. And they are cheap to run, smaller cheaper tires, and the light weight on the consumable parts like brakes helps and so on.

So it seems like we&#39;d be tilting at windmills to get C and B at the Runoffs anyway, so maybe, I thought, an idea that would satisfy both camps would be to emphasize each class for it&#39;s strengths.

We have discussed it before, I&#39;m not the originator. If it&#39;s a good idea, I&#39;ll name the guy who wrote it down first, LOL.

[mattbatson]

Mr Gulick, I think you and some others on here are missing the point that many are trying to make...

Once IT goes national it immediately becomes a class for the "win at all costs, money is no object, built to the hilt" crowd...

This will happen because of the "promise" of being on T.V. and in SportsCar.

You underestimate the ego of your average human being (and I&#39;m not simply talking about racers here).

I honestly think you will have many racers moving into this class as a "cheaper" alternative to going to the "big show". People will start to spend money like it is going out of style.

What this means is that it will be harder for those of us on smaller budgets to be somewhat competitive. Now, I dont mean winning races...I&#39;m talking about being midpack or higher. "Somewhat" competitive...

I know that once the class goes national I will have to step up with more money...or development...whatever you want to call it :rolleyes: to be even a midpacker...

You guy&#39;s talk about buying a 5000 dollar production car...Now, this is a car that is in a class that allows expensive engine work and suspension modifications...right?
Then how in the h$ll do you explain the fact that the absolute cheapest SM car you can buy is around twice that cost?

And to buy a competitive one you need to spend over 20K? This is for a class with a pretty much stock motor and very little suspension mods!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, me and several others on here know the reason for this B)

Once this class goes national it becomes a "serious" class, where there is more to winning than a plastic trophy...there is pride and ego now much more involved in the equation.

I say, keep it cheap, keep it simple, and keep it fun and casual

By the way, I agree with keeping B and C regional...but that is kind of selfish on my part since I&#39;m in B :rolleyes:

[tnord]

If you are &#39;lucky&#39; enough to be in a Region where you you don&#39;t have to prep to 100% to be at the front, you are exactly that, LUCKY. There is nothing stopping anyone from driving up in a Bimmerworld E36 or a Flatout Miata or an ISC RX-7 and running in your class. What do you do then? Find another &#39;easy&#39; class - or step your game up?

Will the AVERAGE prep level of IT cars go up across the country? I think so, but you are already constrained by those prep standards now, you have just been LUCKY.
[/b]

all i&#39;m saying is make a decision based on what&#39;s good for the club and IT across the entire country for the majority of drivers. NOT what&#39;s good for the east coast people who are frustrated because they&#39;re spending runoffs level money without the runoffs level recognition (which is what I think this is really about).

if you really want to go to the runoffs, go SM. it&#39;s close enough to the IT ruleset (ECU mods and all :wacko: ), you&#39;ll be spending pretty much the same you are in IT, and you get more recognition than any other class in the country.

[JoshS]

I honestly think you will have many racers moving into this class as a "cheaper" alternative to going to the "big show". People will start to spend money like it is going out of style.

What this means is that it will be harder for those of us on smaller budgets to be somewhat competitive. Now, I dont mean winning races...I&#39;m talking about being midpack or higher. "Somewhat" competitive...

I know that once the class goes national I will have to step up with more money...or development...whatever you want to call it :rolleyes: to be even a midpacker...
[/b]
But running Regional races doesn&#39;t get you to the big show. People trying to get to the big show, generally speaking, don&#39;t bring their big-bucks efforts to the place where you are just trying to be somewhat competitive.

I guess I can accept the argument that the price of a used race car for these classes might go up, just because the class will be more popular and so there are more potential buyers. But the price of a new build won&#39;t change one whit.

[gprodracer]

But that&#39;s the point!

The people at the top end of the grid will not be affected because the have, or are willing to spend what it takes. God bless them, but this isn&#39;t about them. It&#39;s about the average joe club racer who will get priced out of regional competition. See James letter from above for examples. These $4000 or $5000 Prod or IT cars are todays prices. When the National "spending wars" start, those prices will escalate accordingly.
Again, for those who seek National recognition, your avenue is Production. While I see the "moving target" argument has some validity, it is not as bad as some would have you believe. Most of those people are digruntled racers who believe that it&#39;s the system, and it couldn&#39;t possibly be that someone built something better or faster, or God forbid, someone just flat outdrove them.

Thank you Matt, and James for posting better examples of what I was trying to point out.

Mark

[Andy Bettencourt]

all i&#39;m saying is make a decision based on what&#39;s good for the club and IT across the entire country for the majority of drivers. NOT what&#39;s good for the east coast people who are frustrated because they&#39;re spending runoffs level money without the runoffs level recognition (which is what I think this is really about).
[/b]

I will agree with some of what you are saying. SOME. I want to build a program and go to the runoffs. I LIKE the IT rules. More than SS/T/SM and way less than Prod. It allows ome creativity without being sneaky and a little engineering to boot. I think it rocks.

The converse of what you are saying Trav, which is just as true IMHO, is that the people who aren&#39;t preparing to the max - because they don&#39;t have to - want to protect their sandbox. The fact is simple, someone drives into your Region in a top dollar car that is well driven - and you get sand kicked in your face. You either have to move to another sandbox or you have to start working out.

I think we understand the issues. I support the idea Jake wrote - make SOME of IT National, allow those of us who like the ruleset to go to the show - and keep some of the other classes Regional so that there is a &#39;inexpensive&#39; place to race.

[Knestis]

If we shifted to a plan that just sent the highest-participation classes to the RubOffs, it would de facto create the solution Andy suggests - maybe. Even ITC might have enough more cars nationwide than some of the current National-eligible classes to bump them off the dance card.

The point made a couple of pages ago about National status - and attention - increasing the possibility of creep is a pretty good one. You won&#39;t get ANYONE more purist than ol&#39; Kirk in terms of where IT came from and what it should be, and I&#39;ll throw myself in front of the creep bus any time it becomes necessary. However, conflating issues of creep and the competitive pressures on budgets due to class popularity only serves to muddy the water, I&#39;m afraid.

I can STILL build a $5000 Spec Miata, run schools and regionals, get my license, burn up some full-tread RA-1s, and put more miles on the original engine and tired parts. NOTHING that popularity and/or creep has done to the class keeps me out out of the party. Ditto ITB or ITC, or any number of Production classes for that matter. I suppose that it&#39;s true that SM, as a national market influence, may have increased the value of pooped-out Miati and wrecking yard parts - I&#39;ll grant you that.

K

[tnord]

The converse of what you are saying Trav, which is just as true IMHO, is that the people who aren&#39;t preparing to the max - because they don&#39;t have to - want to protect their sandbox. The fact is simple, someone drives into your Region in a top dollar car that is well driven - and you get sand kicked in your face. You either have to move to another sandbox or you have to start working out.

I think we understand the issues. I support the idea Jake wrote - make SOME of IT National, allow those of us who like the ruleset to go to the show - and keep some of the other classes Regional so that there is a &#39;inexpensive&#39; place to race.
[/b]

i agree that for the most part, we&#39;re all arguing with our own self-interests in mind. there are top-dollar cars in this region (including a brand spaking new all-out OPM CRX), but luckily, some of us are still able to overcome that particular car with driving. we are quite vulnerable though.

i know i&#39;ve said it 10x already, and you&#39;ve already acknowledged the issue, but i can&#39;t stress it enough. don&#39;t bend over everywhere west of Pennsylvania so that the Atlantic Coast can give us the high-hard one.

ps - kirk you&#39;ll be DFL with that $5000 SM anywhere in the country, regional or national. don&#39;t you agree that there&#39;s a lot more incentive to a new driver to try out the sport if he has a chance of finishing "not last" with that $5000 car?

[Knestis]

...and THAT is - again - the crux of the issue, thank you very much. You are talking about having a chance to WIN, not a chance to PARTICIPATE, without building a car to the max allowed by the rules. A national rule set has no obligation to try to keep the lid on spending on a class because it simply is not possible to do so.

If you think Spec Claimer Miata will fly, then it could work. Make it a requirement that any entrant is obligated to sell his car at the end of any race weekend for $10,000 and folks will be loathe to spend $11,000 building one. Yeah - like the SCCA culture will accept THAT...

K

[tnord]

you can participate in just about any class in SCCA for $5000, so the point that the cost of entry doesn&#39;t change when a class goes national is rather irrelevant imo.

[JoshS]

ps - kirk you&#39;ll be DFL with that $5000 SM anywhere in the country, regional or national. don&#39;t you agree that there&#39;s a lot more incentive to a new driver to try out the sport if he has a chance of finishing "not last" with that $5000 car?
[/b]
You seem to think that no one outside of the northeast wants IT classes at National races, but I&#39;m in CA and I support it 100%.

And also out here in San Francisco Region regional races we get 60+ Spec Miatas each race weekend. There are PLENTY of $5K cars running, your basic high-miles street cars with cages. Sure, they aren&#39;t running at the front, but no matter your SM budget, out here, there&#39;s someone to race against.

At the National races, there are absolutely no $5K cars running. Which makes my point. Low-budget regional racers can continue to race and have fun, at regional races, and they don&#39;t need to try to match the spending levels of the front-running national programs in order to do it.

[ddewhurst]

K, I don&#39;t believe you would be DFL with your $5,000 Miata because I don&#39;t believe YOU can build a Spec Miata for $5,000.

Donor car $2,000

Hard roof $1,000

Bolt in cage $1,000

Shall I continue ?

You finish the cost list ;)

David

[Andy Bettencourt]

You can&#39;t build a SM for less than $8-9K. Maybe I will start a poll to further this discussion...

[mattbatson]

It is funny reading thru here, from post to post...some arent paying attention to what the other&#39;s are saying...

One poster say&#39;s you&#39;ll finish DFL with a 5K car, then someone post&#39;s that we all want to win with a 5K car...
It&#39;s is interesting reading.... :P

Yeah, for the most part, you&#39;ll finish DFL with a 5K SM (or production car for that matter), but not necessarily with an ITB car....
In fact, there was Bildon&#39;s ITB VW for sale in the classifieds for around 7K, and this is a pointy end of the field car...for way, way less then 10K.

Your not going to keep many newbies interested in racing if they go a year or two finishing DFL all because IT has become super serious. Now they have to put another 7 or 10K into their car just to finish mid-pack (driving skill aside). This will discourage a lot of new young racers

I have to think there are a lot of people out there like me who got into this on a dime...and plan to run this way for a couple of years...then spend more money (if it comes :wacko: ) and get more serious as I get faster and better....For alot of people, this may mean moving up to production or SM.

Oh well, this is becoming a :dead_horse: and I think there are just going to be differing opinions no matter what.
I imagine the SCCA will do what they want in the end.
Maybe by then I will have the money to get serious anyways and will not care if it affects the class B)

[gprodracer]

Now we are getting somewhere!

Both sides of the fence are now peering on the other side to see that both have valid opinions. I agree with Kirk about the traditional IT rules, and what the origins of the IT class were. I agree with Andy that IT rules "rock". I agree with Travis that one coast shouldn&#39;t make the decision for the whole country.

We all have some common ground here. We all want to see IT grow and prosper. We all have different opinions as to how to make that happen, but that&#39;s cool, it&#39;s all good. That is what is so great about these boards, is the exchange of ideas, and information. Didn&#39;t ITR come about from discussions here?

My concern for IT comes from the exclusion of the average Joe (relative term) budgeted racer that is just starting out. I was that guy, and we have to give him a chance to get going. I also understand the larger budgeted teams, as I was one of those for several years, and could afford (and had the time) to go racing all over the Southeast 2-3 times a month, 11 months out of the year. After a huge financial setback, and having to back off racing for a few years, I am back with a limited budget Production car program. My heart will always be with IT, as this was the class that was affordable enough to allow me to get started in wheel to wheel racing.

I just don&#39;t want to see it go down the same path as other classes, where the average guy can&#39;t even afford the minimum investment to give it a shot. Like Travis pointed out, I&#39;m not talking about a winning car, just one that doesn&#39;t finish last every time. From there they can figure out where they can go in their class with what budget, and what amount of effort they are willing to put in to accomplish their personal goals.

Does that make sense to anyone?

Discuss please.

Thanks,

Mark

[mattbatson]

So far as the arguements on cost to build goes...
I dont think you will find a single one of the race car&#39;s in the classifieds that sells for what they have in it.

whether it is an IT, production, or SM...you can always buy a built one for a fraction of what it actually cost the guy to build it...

The point is, once the class becomes national, you will not see many sub 7K IT cars for sale anymore...The price will go up, just like it did in SM.
Trust me on this.

I dont even know why I"m typing this, I&#39;m sure we all know this right?
Competitive SM=25K
Competitive ITB or ITA=10K

Now, this would make sense if the SM class rules allowed more extensive modifications then IT...but I dont think that is the case, right :rolleyes:

[Andy Bettencourt]

S

I dont even know why I"m typing this, I&#39;m sure we all know this right?
Competitive SM=25K
Competitive ITB or ITA=10K

Now, this would make sense if the SM class rules allowed more extensive modifications then IT...but I dont think that is the case, right :rolleyes: [/b]

It depends what area of the country you are from. A $10K ITA car in the NE is as good as a $10K SM. That is why I think the opinions are so varied on this - because the perspectives are equally varied.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We all have some common ground here. We all want to see IT grow and prosper. We all have different opinions as to how to make that happen, but that&#39;s cool, it&#39;s all good. That is what is so great about these boards, is the exchange of ideas, and information. Didn&#39;t ITR come about from discussions here?

Mark [/b]

Mark,

I think you mention something here that should be mentioned again. We all want IT to grow and prosper. EXCELLENT comment. But I submit the following:

IF IT grows and prospers, the cost of competition will go up. We saw that happen in SM over it&#39;s lifecycle from inception to National status - albiet in an accelerated timeframe. What is the RESULT of the growth in popularity of IT? I think we are seeing it in ITA right now. There are 8-10 cars people can site that they think could have a chance at a checkered should the prep and driving be up to it...it is drawing record fields in a lot of Regions - and every time one of these cars is added to the grid, it usually isn&#39;t a shoe-string effort. So what is that result of popularity?

Secondly, and more importantly, we must ask ourselves IF going National will actually allow our category to grow. It would seem that some would come, and some would go. Would it be a net positive? Would be just be cannabalizing from other categories to bolster this one? National status for IT may not bring new members to the club - THAT is what we are looking for.

Take a look at NASA. I have said that both groups can and will exist simultainiously, there is PLENTY of money being thrown around over there. The recent National Championships will bring more interest - and more money - to NASA...eliminating some of the run-whatcha-brung attraction it has/had.

Excellent question though. Even though *I* would like to see IT go National, is it really a net win for the Club? That is the question we need to answer before I would cast my official vote.

[Knestis]

You can&#39;t build a SM for less than $8-9K. Maybe I will start a poll to further this discussion...[/b]
Sorry - If I&#39;d thought this was about how much it cost to ACTUALLY build a SM, I would have used accurate figures. It&#39;s not - it was an illustrative point made with a little hyperbole, and I&#39;m pretty sure Travis recognized that when he responded, too.



We all want to see IT grow and prosper. [/b]
I don&#39;t believe this is the case. Sorry. The mechanism that drives up cost is popularity, which fuels competition - both on the track and at the cash register. Most of the arguments here that costs have gone up and are "hurting someone" are predicated on the desire to maintain relative competitive advantage without spending more dough. It&#39;s cloaked in language that makes it sound less self serving but there are plenty of people racing in plenty of SCCA classes who would prefer to be third of six cars in class rather than 15th of 30 (EDIT - spending the same money).

* * *

Now, let me clarify something. I don&#39;t have strong feelings one way or another about whether IT should be a National class or not - because I don&#39;t think it would change what I do. My priorities, budget, and other considerations are met doing my current thing, so I have no desire to "go to the big show." This, even while in the abstract, it is bothersome to me that some of the most popular classes in the Club aren&#39;t recognized with the stature that National recognition arguably brings.

K

[Greg Amy]

You can&#39;t build a SM for less than $8-9K. Maybe I will start a poll to further this discussion...
[/b]
The SSM I built last year is a fine example. I paid $3500 for a 1.8L with hardtop; by the time I done I had ~$10,500 in the car (I spent good money with Kessler on a cage specifically to allow me to fit into the car.) And, that didn&#39;t include wheels and tires... - GregA

On edit:My feelings about IT vis-a-vis National are mixed. We are fortunate in that we have the skillsets and motivation to build a car for just about any category we choose. We chose IT because we like the ruleset. I&#39;ve done "The National Thing" so I got that off my back, but at this point in time I&#39;d like to see IT go National because I already have a Nationally-competitive car. If I were slogging about with a car not completely prepped to the rules - and not competitive - I&#39;d probably lean towards staying Regional simply so I could maintain "parity" within my current group without spending money.

So my thoughts on the matter are not so nearly about "what&#39;s good for the class" as much as it is "what&#39;s good for me": make it National and I can flip that little rocket for some serious coin... ;)

[gprodracer]

Well Kirk, don&#39;t be sorry if you don&#39;t want IT to grow and prosper. That is why we all hve differing opinions on the "National" topic. I first entered racing in IT BECAUSE it was not a national class. I knew that I didn&#39;t have the skills, nor the budget to compete (not win, just compete) in any national class at that point. I couldn&#39;t afford race gas, I couldn&#39;t afford slicks, hell, I couldn&#39;t afford a fuel cell at first. I ran on worn out regular BFG street tires, and graduated up to Spec Racer (Renault) Bridgestone take offs. I cna remember taking 1.25 seconds off my lap times, with SR tires! Wow, I&#39;m finally running on real "race" tires!

Andy, those are the people who I&#39;m referring to who will make IT grow, and that is the type of entry level class that IT created originally. In my early years, all I wanted to do was finish "not last". Lets keep the ARRC as the "National Championship" of IT. From the perspective of many of the IT community I know, a win there has just as much prestige as a win in Topeka running in a class with 8 cars.

IMHO, we have to have a true "entry level" class to keep our membership growing. IT has always been that class. If the majority want it to go National, so be it, but please then form another regional only class that adheres to the original set of IT rules, and allows inexpensive cars to have a chance to compete.

Comments or suggestions?

Mark

[Fi3555]

I agree, popularity of a class does bring on competition and with it more attention to driving skill and car prep i.e. $$$. But competition is a GOOD thing. Don&#39;t you really want to know how good you are at driving and car prep ?? No or little competition would be like playing Chess with students at the special-ed school!
Sure, you will beat them most everytime but just how good are you ! Look at the driving in SM, awesome tallent at the front and there are many also-rans in the race, having a good time all-the-way.
I say that IT national racing wouldn&#39;t be a bad thing, only another avenue for competitors to send their skills to a higher level. There would still be regionals for the new and the not as competitive folks.


Tim
#97 ITB Golf

[Knestis]

Well Kirk, don&#39;t be sorry if you don&#39;t want IT to grow and prosper. ...[/b]
I hope you know that isn&#39;t what I said, and are just playing word games. If that&#39;s what you really THINK I said, go back and read it again. I ran my first IT race in 20 years ago this past spring, and you are going to have to look long and hard to find someone who&#39;s a more vocal advocate for the category. Please don&#39;t be insulting.

K

[gprodracer]

Kirk,

As the "master of the word games" I thought you&#39;d appreciate the out of context quote. My bad, my apologies, there was absolutely no insult intended. I fully know your position, and appreciate all you&#39;ve done for the class. We have very similar views on many of the topics posted here. You have 3 years of IT racing on me, but I&#39;m still pretty much "old school" when it comes to rules that change the basic philosophy of the class.

Again, I just don&#39;t think that the spending war that will occur if IT goes National will help grow the class, in fact, it just might keep people out due to the "trickle down" cost escalation.

And, as stated before, I might just be full of crap.

Mark

[CaptainWho]

No or little competition would be like playing Chess with students at the special-ed school!
[/b]

As the last rank member of that class, I kinda resent that, Tim. :P

Actually, though, I really am one of those guys. I do this for the fun I have on the track. Our cars aren&#39;t prepped to the nines ... it&#39;ll be a long time before the car is what&#39;s holding me back. I also don&#39;t have the "fire in my belly" to win or be disappointed. Winning would be great. It might happen some day after I&#39;ve got more seat time and more skill and feel with the car. But I&#39;m mainly going out there to have fun and become a better driver, on track and off. Running mid-pack is great for me, whether it&#39;s 4th of 8 or 24th of 48. So I&#39;m the guy you folks in $5k SMs will be running with back there in the mass of cars. I&#39;ll be in the $5k RX-7. :D

[lateapex911]

Wow...you go to a bachelors party, and this thread breaks out three more pages!

I read the comments, and apprecaite the viewpoints, but I have to point out, (and it MAY have been pointed out pages ago, but nobody acknowledges it), that:

1- IF IT were to go National, guys who are currently racing $5000 IT cars and happy to finish 10th of 20 in a regional race, will still be racing the same car and likely finishing in the same (rough) position...give or take a couple spots. Our two tiered system results in the big spenders everyone is worried about spending their money at National events. And more casual racers running regional events.
Proof: I was given a ride in a ratty Spec Racer in exchange for some work I had done, and ran a National. I don&#39;t want to even admit how I did, but it was NOT at the pointy end of the stick. I went 7 seconds a lap faster than the guy who drove it before me, and he had a better finishing position...at a Regional event. My lap time at a Regioanl would have inverted my finish...instead of being 5th from last in a 30 car field, I would have been 5th. Heck with current spec tires, I might have been in the hunt...but NOT at a National.


If you want to win cheap, go buy a Prod car and run regionals. Heck, even my IT spec RX-7 would run in the top 2 easlily as certain Regionals.....in the Prod class. Even if IT Regionals pick up a couple fast cars now and then, who really cares?? Is coming in 15th of 22 that much different than coming 13th of 20???

I don&#39;t buy the sky is falling angle that Regional IT racing will become the land of dual stacking 18 wheel transport rigs and ALMS budgets.

[tnord]

two questions.....

1) which is a "healthier" situation for IT? a 15 car regional field, or a 9 car national field and an 8 car regional?

2) how is IT NOT like SM?

[gprodracer]

Jake,

Would you please refrain from the denigrating Prod comments. Just because Prod isn&#39;t well subcribed up there does not mean that&#39;s the way it is everywhere. $5000 might get you a starter roller down here, but you can&#39;t even be regionally competeitive down here without a $5000 (minimum) motor.

I&#39;m not sure where the mythical $5000 Prod car rumor started, and I&#39;m sure there are some regions out there that have poorly attended races, but those are by no means a reflection of Prod (or any other classes for that matter). Its all in the ebb and flow of popularity, and costs.

But yes, there are concerns that going National will (as it has happened again, and again) drive the costs up for the little guys. I agree that it will not affect Andys, or Gregs, or Kip VanSteenbergs, but will it be healthy for the growth and prosperity of the class as a whole? Thats been my question all along. The foundation of IT from the beginning was for it to be regional only, and the entry level class for racers. If there is a class that can serve that function, then fine..go National, and I&#39;ll be rooting for all of you. I just don&#39;t see where that class is right now.

Thanks,

Mark

[JoshS]

1) which is a "healthier" situation for IT? a 15 car regional field, or a 9 car national field and an 8 car regional?
[/b]
Wrong question. The right question is, "Which is a healthier situation for the club?"

I think that the production-based National classes are kind of messed up right now. There&#39;s SS/T, but then an ENORMOUS hop to P, and let&#39;s face it, only the slowest cars in SS even have a P class that they could fit into, and then there&#39;s GT, which is arguably not even production-car based.

Where are all of the street cars?

See, 30 years ago, street cars sucked. To race a car, you really needed something with tremendous engineering in it.

Nowadays, lots of street cars make pretty darned good race cars with limited modifications. However, there&#39;s no place to race most of them in National club racing. It&#39;s messed up. IT could help that in a serious way.

[lateapex911]

I agree, and thats the main point as I see it.

IT would be better for the club as a whole than nearly any Production based category going. Well, SM is drawing big numbers, but I agree that the other production based categories have some spotty classes.

I also think we embarass ourselves with some of the races on the Runoffs telecsats...and to me that&#39;s one of SCCAs two major marketing tools. A great ITA and ITS race would sure help that.

The second major tool is, to me, the pro racing Speed World Challenge. If you watch that, and get jonesing to get an Acura or BMW and go race like that.....IT is the natural landing zone for you. Good luck finding it though, LOL.

[lateapex911]

Jake,

Would you please refrain from the denigrating Prod comments. Just because Prod isn&#39;t well subcribed up there does not mean that&#39;s the way it is everywhere. $5000 might get you a starter roller down here, but you can&#39;t even be regionally competeitive down here without a $5000 (minimum) motor.


Thanks,

Mark
[/b]

Mark, sorry, not trying to denegrade Prod per se&#39;, but using it as an example.

My comments are based on the times I see regional prod drivers running, compared to IT times, and my reading of various results that show that certain prod classes post very small numbers at regionals.

And my comments on $5000 prod cars were based on watching ebay auctions on some well known and pretty well built prod cars that didn&#39;t sell for numbers right around there, as well as friends who tried selling their prod cars, and got zero offers, even when it was obvious that the cars contents were worth 2 or 3 times the ask, In the end, I watched one get parted out.

Maybe $5k is just a loose number I tossed out, but it&#39;s not far from the reality, which was that if you want to do well, and want a cheap buy in, you can score points for little up front costs in a prod car.

We are all worrying about IT losing the entry level attraction as a National class, but I was pointing to the prod situation as an example of how it could be considered an entry level category, if only for the ease of entry due to cost, and the ease of decent finishes.

(I know of just such a guy doing that now. he&#39;s having a ball running an old Z car, and he&#39;s off the pace of course, but grabbing trophies. His world is far from IT, where he&#39;d finish mid to lower mid pack in his car in an ITA race around here.)

And we all know that prod cars cost big bucks to run at the front, so how is the IT situation going to be different?? Well, yes, popularity will drive things up a bit, but it will still be possible to run regionally, run reasonably, and find great racing in the mid pack world.

[tnord]

Wrong question. The right question is, "Which is a healthier situation for the club?"

[/b]

well, yes....of course. i&#39;m pretty sure i&#39;ve stated this multiple times, but thank you for emphatically correcting me.


i may have just been sold on ITR/ITS going national for purposes of putting on a great show on TV at the runoffs. but i&#39;m not quite bought in yet as i just don&#39;t think you would really get that many people who see the runoffs on TV and say, "hey, i want to go try that.

[dj10]

and get jonesing to get an Acura or BMW and go race like that [/b]



Hey hey hey.....Jake, watch it. :D

dj

[gprodracer]

Jake,

I&#39;m seeing things from your point of view a little clearer now, but the Prod category down here (as well as other big Divisions across the country) has seen a resurgence in participation numbers. That is why I said that what you see up there isn&#39;t necessarily what is taking place nationwide.

On that note, we used to have 14-20 car ITC fields all the time here in Central Florida Region, as well as most SEDIV regional events. ITC cars were fairly plentiful, and one could by a decent starter car for $3500 or so (mid to late 90&#39;s). Most of us decided to move to Prod, taking our cars with us, and now the ITC fields have a good turnout when there are 8 cars. The $3500 (or even $5000) complete race ready cars are just not as easy to come by anymore. Yes, there is E-bay, but a lot of the first time, just starting out people, aren&#39;t willing, or don&#39;t have the time off, or the cash to travel several states away to go get a car. These are the new members I am talking about attracting and keeping.

Down here there is no "ease of entry due to cost", nor is there any "ease of decent finishes". Maybe I&#39;m just fortunate enough to live in a division that has some of the deepest, and fiercest levels of competition. (BEFORE I UPSET PEOPLE, THAT WAS A GENERAL COMMENT, AND WAS NOT AIMED AT ANY DIVISION! WE ALL KNOW THAT THERE IS FIERCE COMPETITION IN MANY CLASSES AT THE REGIONAL AND NATIONAL LEVEL!)

My point continues to be that if IT goes National, the cost of a "starter car" in any class, will go up to the point that it may price out the average joe novice from getting in. I agree that there are currently a number of top notch ITA and ITS teams that are spending Production level budgets right now, and have their programs in step with SOME of the top Prod car teams. But I contend that IT going National will not affect them, so consequently, this really isn&#39;t about them, and I&#39;ve been trying to put my ideas out there in a way that makes sense to both sides. I just wish there was an easy answer, and I haven&#39;t seen it yet.

Comments?

Mark

[Bill Miller]

The total speculation that people are spewing here as fact is simply amazing.

Mark (Larson), just please stop. IT going National will not have any impact on the cost of a &#39;starter car&#39;, and will certainly not make it go up, or keep Joe Racer from getting in the game. My old ITB Rabbit GTI, that I sold for $3500, would still be worth $3500, regardless of IT being National or Regaional. That&#39;s evidenced by the fact that I essentially &#39;traded&#39; it for an HP car (I bought the HP Rabbit for about what I sold the ITB GTI for).

I think what you, and several others are really saying, is that the cost of running up front will go up. In areas where you don&#39;t need a max-boogie effort to run up front, that&#39;s probably going to be true. Andy and others have already covered this. I&#39;d really like to see the results of Andy&#39;s poll cross-referenced w/ what kind of car the people run, where the run it, and what their results look like for the past few years.

I forget who said it, but how do you figure that it will cost your more $$ to maintain your status quo at a Regional, if IT goes National? The reality of the situation is, you&#39;re more likely to move up the grid than down, as the folks that want to run against the highest level of competition will move from Regionals to Nationals. Those people are more than likely already at the pointy end of the grid. Take them away, and all else being equal, you&#39;ll move up the grid. So, if you&#39;re content w/ finishing where you are on the grid, you&#39;ll actually be able to spend LESS money, since you won&#39;t have to push as hard, and you can let those couple of cars that are behind you get by.

And as far as participation numbers go Mark, take the June Sprints out of the equation, and you&#39;re going to be hard pressed to find very many National races w/ 10 car fields in the Prod classes. I think I will call Topeka, and see if I can get participation numbers for EP-HP at all the Nationals this year, along w/ ITS-C participation at all the Regionals. Probably not a bad bet to say that even ITC will average more cars per race than the top Prod class (probably EP) will.

And I think the decline in ITB and ITC fields is due more to the lack of newer cars to build than the drivers taking their cars to Prod. By the same token, I think that&#39;s one of the reasons that ITA and ITS have grown so much in popularity (even though the entry cost is generally higher than ITB/C), is because you&#39;ve got more current cars eligible to run. The New Beetle notwithstanding (anybody seen one on the track yet??), what&#39;s the last &#39;new&#39; ITC car that was classified (not something that was moved down from ITB)? A quick review of the &#39;06 ITCS shows only 6 cars (besides the New Beetle) listed in ITC that were mfg&#39;d after 1990. And of those, you&#39;ve got things like Dodge Colts and Hundai Excels! Most of the top ITC cars these days (Datsuns and VWs) are ~30 years old!

[JoshS]

And as far as participation numbers go Mark, take the June Sprints out of the equation, and you&#39;re going to be hard pressed to find very many National races w/ 10 car fields in the Prod classes. I think I will call Topeka, and see if I can get participation numbers for EP-HP at all the Nationals this year, along w/ ITS-C participation at all the Regionals. Probably not a bad bet to say that even ITC will average more cars per race than the top Prod class (probably EP) will.
[/b]
Can&#39;t help you with the IT numbers, but here&#39;s everything (http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/2006ClassPartallFinal-06.pdf) you need to know about participation in 2006 at National races.

For those that don&#39;t want to look at the link, EP averaged 6.2 entries/race, FP 5.3, GP 3.7, and HP 3.3.

By division, the largest number that can be found for Production shows that EP averaged 8.1 entries/race in MWDIV.

So since the highest average for a production class anywhere was 8.1, there were probably not too many individual races with over 10 entries in any Prod class.

[Bill Miller]

Can&#39;t help you with the IT numbers, but here&#39;s everything (http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/2006ClassPartallFinal-06.pdf) you need to know about participation in 2006 at National races.

For those that don&#39;t want to look at the link, EP averaged 6.2 entries/race, FP 5.3, GP 3.7, and HP 3.3.

By division, the largest number that can be found for Production shows that EP averaged 8.1 entries/race in MWDIV.

So since the highest average for a production class anywhere was 8.1, there were probably not too many individual races with over 10 entries in any Prod class.
[/b]

Thanks Josh.

A quick look at the MARRS results for &#39;06 (granted, probably one of the higher ITC fields), shows an over 11 cars per race average.

[tnord]

yes bill, that is the exception. here in midiv, you&#39;re lucky to get more than 2 ITB cars, and more than 1 ITC. ITS isn&#39;t really much better with usually 3 cars or so. ITA is the only decent participating field with probably a 9 or 10 car average.

[Bill Miller]

a $4000 shitbox is still a $4000 shitbox no doubt. but to maintain your current finishing position in nationals that you had in regionals, everyone below probably about 5th will end up spending more.[/b]

Well there you go Travis, of course it&#39;s going to cost you more to maintain your status quo in Nationals. That holds true for the guys w/ National-eligible cars that run Regionals. I know for a fact that I would have to spend more on my HP Rabbit if I wanted to run up front at Nationals. There&#39;s no big surprise there.

The issue we&#39;ve been discussing is would it cost you more to maintain your positions at Regionals if IT went National? Don&#39;t see how it could. And as I said in an earlier post, you might actually move up as the top guys go to Nationals.


I know that once the class goes national I will have to step up with more money...or development...whatever you want to call it to be even a midpacker...
[/b]

Only if you want to run Nationals Matt, only if you want to run Nationals. Nothing says that you have to. I really don&#39;t see why this is such a hard concept for people to grasp. Look at all the other National-eligible classes. Do the folks that run those cars in Regionals have to spend more money because other guys w/ the same car(s) run Nationals? One doesn&#39;t really have any impact on the other.

If IT becomes eligible for Nationals, it will probably cost less (and maintain your position on the grid) to run Regionals than it does today, as the max-boogie guys will be off racing Nationals. Or, spend what you&#39;re spending now, and move up the grid. You don&#39;t see the max-boogie cars running Regionals now, why would you expect IT to be different than that? Today, there&#39;s no other place for them to play, so they have to run Regionals.


<tangent mode>

K, I don&#39;t believe you would be DFL with your $5,000 Miata because I don&#39;t believe YOU can build a Spec Miata for $5,000.

Donor car $2,000

Hard roof $1,000

Bolt in cage $1,000

Shall I continue ?

You finish the cost list

David[/b]

I&#39;m not so sure about that David. Last year, I could have bought a complete, running 1.6 car w/ a hardtop for $1000. After your $1000 bolt-in cage, I&#39;d still have $3k left to put into the car. I&#39;m pretty sure I could have gotten the car on the track for <$5k. Would it run at the pointy end of the field? No, but it would be a fun car to drive, and w/ all the SMs out there, I&#39;m pretty sure I would have had somebody (probably a few) to race with. When you&#39;ve got fields of more than say 20 cars, you better bring your A game w/ a serious effort if you want to be on the podium.

</tangent mode>


Yeah, for the most part, you&#39;ll finish DFL with a 5K SM (or production car for that matter), but not necessarily with an ITB car....
In fact, there was Bildon&#39;s ITB VW for sale in the classifieds for around 7K, and this is a pointy end of the field car...for way, way less then 10K.

Your not going to keep many newbies interested in racing if they go a year or two finishing DFL all because IT has become super serious. Now they have to put another 7 or 10K into their car just to finish mid-pack (driving skill aside). This will discourage a lot of new young racers
[/b]

Matt,

Bildon&#39;s car for $7k is a pretty good bargin. Why don&#39;t you ask Bill what it cost to build that car?

And most newbies aren&#39;t going to start off racing Nationals, that arguement doesn&#39;t hold water. Or, look at somebody starting out today in ITS or ITA. If you&#39;re a newbie starting in ITA anywhere on the East coast, you&#39;re probably going to get your head handed to you for quite a while, unless you spend major $$$ and have some serious talent. ITA fields at a MARRS race run about 20 cars. The pointy end of that field are some pretty serious folks. I think it&#39;s even moreso for the folks running the NARRC series. Just look at folks like Amy, Serra, Bettencourt, etc. if you don&#39;t think so. Those cars are all probably pushing $20k.


The point is, once the class becomes national, you will not see many sub 7K IT cars for sale anymore...The price will go up, just like it did in SM.
Trust me on this.

I dont even know why I"m typing this, I&#39;m sure we all know this right?
Competitive SM=25K
Competitive ITB or ITA=10K

Now, this would make sense if the SM class rules allowed more extensive modifications then IT...but I dont think that is the case, right[/b]

I&#39;m not sure what you base this speculation on. You can buy plenty of <$7k Prod cars today. Just like you can buy $30k+ Prod cars today. SM is not really a good analogy. One of the reasons that costs have gone through the roof is because it&#39;s a spec class. You have to actually spend more money to get around some of the rules. Not unlike the old IT shock rule. Buy a set of Penskes and spend more money to have the threads turned off of them.

And your $10k ITA car may be competitive where you are, but it sure isn&#39;t a full-tilt build, and won&#39;t be competitive against cars that are. Again, you spout your speculation like it&#39;s fact, when there&#39;s plenty of evidence to the contrary. And I think it was Andy that pointed it out, with increased popularity comes increased expense to run at the front. A $10k ITB car is more than likely able to be on the podium, in the right hands. But look at the field sizes of ITB compared to ITA. And then, look at how many new cars have been classed in ITB (new cars, not ones that have been moved down from ITA). The problem is, there aren&#39;t that many available new cars to put into ITB (and even moreso ITC). The overall performance envelope of new cars that are being produced goes up just about every year. How many new cars are produced that make 100-120 hp? The pool to draw new ITB and ITC cars from is a lot smaller than the pool to draw ITA and ITS (and now ITR) cars from. More choices + newer cars = greater popularity. The guy that starts today w/ a $5k ITA or ITS car is going to spend the whole race looking in his mirrors anyway.

[bldn10]

IT was meant to be Regional-only and I think it should stay that way.

However, perhaps there is a different way to get where many want to go. When the talk of ITR first started I assumed (and hoped) this was the direction it was headed, but it did not turn out that way. Maybe it&#39;s not too late. Take the IT ruleset in general, ITR-type (and maybe newer ITS) cars only, allow wings, any size wheel, any ride height, and maybe some "aero" body panels. I.e. European touring car,Grand-Am,Speed WC. Call it SuperTouring or Touring X and intend it for National status ASAP. It would be the fastest growing class in SCCA immediately and perhaps the most popular w/i a few years.

[gran racing]

You can&#39;t build a SM for less than $8-9K. Maybe I will start a poll to further this discussion...[/b]

Sorry Andy, but that’s not true. You CAN build a SM for less than $8K. Will it be towards the pointy end? No. But with a decent driver, it can be mid-pack. There’s no need to start a poll if people think it is possible or not. People have done it and it’s simply a fact, not an opinion. Remember, not everyone builds a car to your standards and sees the same “this part needs to be replaced” the way you might.


Once IT goes national it immediately becomes a class for the "win at all costs, money is no object, built to the hilt" crowd... This will happen because of the "promise" of being on T.V. and in SportsCar.[/b]

I definitely do think more money will be brought into IT if this happens. Going along with that, there would be more opportunity for sponsorship. Personally I’d rather keep it at a lower cost and not worry about sponsors other than a “nice if it happens, but not dependant upon it.”


…don&#39;t you agree that there&#39;s a lot more incentive to a new driver to try out the sport if he has a chance of finishing "not last" with that $5000 car?
Travis [/b]

I absolutely agree. Heck, for when I was getting into IT, a $5K car was a crazy amount of money.


Mark (Larson), just please stop. IT going National will not have any impact on the cost of a &#39;starter car&#39;, and will certainly not make it go up, or keep Joe Racer from getting in the game. My old ITB Rabbit GTI, that I sold for $3500, would still be worth $3500, regardless of IT being National or Regaional. That&#39;s evidenced by the fact that I essentially &#39;traded&#39; it for an HP car (I bought the HP Rabbit for about what I sold the ITB GTI for).
Bill Miller[/b]

How is that evidenced by you recently trading it? IT isn’t national now, therefore that proves nothing. :D You are right, a “low budget car that is legal” won’t change too much but a low budget car that can run mid-pack might.

There’s been much discussion about how IT going national won’t change the barriers to entry into the class since the rules are not changing, therefore nothing would change for someone to enter the sport. While that may be technically true, there’s more to it. Back when I was doing HPDEs with my end goal being IT racing, I often looked at the times I was doing versus the mid-pack guys in the class I’d be racing with. Many others do / have looked at this information for comparison purposes too. In the beginning, I was doing 1:11s & 1:12s at Lime Rock. Yeah, my times were off the pace but others in mid-pack were doing 1:09s & 1:08s so it wasn’t too bad. After thinking about it more, with some additional seat time, a race suspension, good tires, maybe I wouldn’t be way behind everyone else? Let’s now say that IT goes national and the trickle down effect does happen (which I believe it would), people running mid-pace are instead doing 1:06s. As that prospective member of SCCA, my mindset would have been different especially when looking at how much money it would have taken to get the car to a point where it’s capable of those times (and myself too). At that point I would have looked more seriously into other alternatives including other SCCA classes, racing with NASA or other clubs instead. In reality for me, I decided to run with EMRA (a smaller club in the N.E.) because I was attracted to the fact that people new to the sport could run and be competitive on a modest budget. SCCA is not the only option for people to race with.

There’s also been discussion of how changing IT to a national class would increase the participation numbers for the category. I do agree with this, but where would these people come from? Would we simply be taking people away from other SCCA classes or would it bring in new membership? And if it is new membership, would it attract people who would not otherwise be racing with SCCA in another class? I envision that many of these new IT racers would just be a redistribution of members among other racing categories within SCCA.

I’ve had the pleasure of speaking with many prospective club racers. There’s been many questions about what it takes to get into the sport, related costs, safety concerns, and how fast they need to be to not be a constant back-marker. Not once has anyone even mentioned caring if there’s a national championship or not. If IT were to become a national class, it would be done for the sake of us existing IT racers and not for those prospective racers. As many of you who are supporting IT going national say, you choose the car (I mean class) you race. :P

[tnord]

Well there you go Travis, of course it&#39;s going to cost you more to maintain your status quo in Nationals. That holds true for the guys w/ National-eligible cars that run Regionals. I know for a fact that I would have to spend more on my HP Rabbit if I wanted to run up front at Nationals. There&#39;s no big surprise there.

The issue we&#39;ve been discussing is would it cost you more to maintain your positions at Regionals if IT went National? Don&#39;t see how it could. And as I said in an earlier post, you might actually move up as the top guys go to Nationals.[/b]

not true everywhere. we have regional/national weekends in MiDiv, and pretty much all the SM guys running nationals on sunday run the regional on saturday as well. i think 4 of the top 5 regional pts finishers are going to the runoffs in SM. if IT went national, i don&#39;t see how it&#39;d be any different here. so you would be competing against national caliber drivers and cars even when you stick to regionals, thus to maintain your position in regionals that you had before you must up your budget.

i don&#39;t know if that&#39;s the way it is everywhere, or anywhere else.....but that&#39;s why i keep encouraging everyone to step outside of their little sandbox and make a decision that&#39;s best for IT/club across the whole country, not just the atlantic coast. if MiDiv is the only division that would be adversely affected by going national, then by all means, go national. we&#39;ll just have to react accordingly in our own best interests.

[dickita15]

Travis, conversely you can not expect the entire club to make policy based on the divisions with low car counts. The regional national thing is the norm in Middiv and Sw Div probably because there are not enough racer to support a straight up National. In Nediv, CenDiv, SeDv this is not the case and I do not think it is so on the west coast either, but it has been a while since I have been to a race out there.

When a friend of mine moved to Texas a few years back we noted that SW DIV had less members, racetracks, and events that two of the regions in Ne Div and we have 19 regions.

[tnord]

Travis, conversely you can not expect the entire club to make policy based on the divisions with low car counts. The regional national thing is the norm in Middiv and Sw Div probably because there are not enough racer to support a straight up National. In Nediv, CenDiv, SeDv this is not the case and I do not think it is so on the west coast either, but it has been a while since I have been to a race out there.

When a friend of mine moved to Texas a few years back we noted that SW DIV had less members, racetracks, and events that two of the regions in Ne Div and we have 19 regions.
[/b]

you&#39;re right, which is exactly why i stated "if MiDiv is the only division that would be adversely affected by going national, then by all means, go national. we&#39;ll just have to react accordingly in our own best interests." above.

[JoshS]

Travis, conversely you can not expect the entire club to make policy based on the divisions with low car counts. The regional national thing is the norm in Middiv and Sw Div probably because there are not enough racer to support a straight up National. In Nediv, CenDiv, SeDv this is not the case and I do not think it is so on the west coast either, but it has been a while since I have been to a race out there.
[/b]

Here in NPDiv, this year we had 7 National races. 4 of those were at 2 double national weekends, the other 3 were at regional/national weekends.

In the California SPDiv races, I ran two National races this year, one of which was a regional/national and the other was a single national. I skipped an SPDiv double national at Buttonwillow. There were other SPDiv nationals in Arizona but I&#39;m not sure of the makeup of those. I think at least one of them was a double national.

So, there are definitely a decent number of single national and double nationals on the west coast. There are also a handful of regional/nationals.

[Bill Miller]

not true everywhere. we have regional/national weekends in MiDiv, and pretty much all the SM guys running nationals on sunday run the regional on saturday as well. i think 4 of the top 5 regional pts finishers are going to the runoffs in SM. if IT went national, i don&#39;t see how it&#39;d be any different here. so you would be competing against national caliber drivers and cars even when you stick to regionals, thus to maintain your position in regionals that you had before you must up your budget.

i don&#39;t know if that&#39;s the way it is everywhere, or anywhere else.....but that&#39;s why i keep encouraging everyone to step outside of their little sandbox and make a decision that&#39;s best for IT/club across the whole country, not just the atlantic coast. if MiDiv is the only division that would be adversely affected by going national, then by all means, go national. we&#39;ll just have to react accordingly in our own best interests.
[/b]


And how many of the other National-eligible cars run the Regional? And pointing to SM is not really valid. It&#39;s a spec class, and there is a whole host of issues around that, as to why the costs have escalated so much. Couple that w/ the fact that the cars are pretty much bullet proof, and you&#39;ve got an opportunity for more seat time. Or, another way to look at it, is that the National guys are already there, and it gives them a test day to work on development of the car and the driver.



I decided to run with EMRA (a smaller club in the N.E.) because I was attracted to the fact that people new to the sport could run and be competitive on a modest budget. SCCA is not the only option for people to race with. [/b]

Dave,

I started racing w/ EMRA as well. Great group of people, lots of fun, not a whole lot of travel, but you&#39;ve just reinforced what I, Andy, Jake, and a couple of others have been saying. People like being competitive w/ less than full-tilt cars. You&#39;re right, SCCA is not the only option, but I think it&#39;s safe to say that it does provide the highest level of competition.

[tnord]

And how many of the other National-eligible cars run the Regional?
[/b]

not sure, i don&#39;t really pay attention. i&#39;ll grant you it&#39;s a lower % than the x-over from SM.



And pointing to SM is not really valid. It&#39;s a spec class, and there is a whole host of issues around that, as to why the costs have escalated so much.
[/b]

i&#39;m not talking about costs, merely saying that if IT goes national you&#39;ll have plenty of national guys running regional races because of the format in MiDiv.



Couple that w/ the fact that the cars are pretty much bullet proof, and you&#39;ve got an opportunity for more seat time. Or, another way to look at it, is that the National guys are already there, and it gives them a test day to work on development of the car and the driver.
[/b]

which i think is the same in IT. i don&#39;t see IT engines as hand grenades like the GT stuff. i don&#39; t think there&#39;s really enough allowance in the IT rules to create such a situation (which is the way it should be). the IT guys are already there, the cars should be fractionally less reliable than the SM&#39;s, and it gives IT drivers the same chance to test and develop as it does the SM guys.

[Bill Miller]

We&#39;ll have to agree to disagree on this one Travis.

If you don&#39;t see much x-over from the other National classes, why would you expect IT to increase? How much x-over do you see from the SS and T cars? That&#39;s as valid a comparrison as the SM x-over (if not moreso)

[tnord]

xover from T1? not much.
xover from T2/T3? i don&#39;t pay attention much, but i think most of them run both national/regional.
xover from SS? i don&#39;t think we really have any in this division.

why is a comparison to SS/T more relative than a comparison to SM? the ruleset is closer to SM than it is to SS or T. spec miata isn&#39;t even close to a spec series btw....

[Bill Miller]

xover from T1? not much.
xover from T2/T3? i don&#39;t pay attention much, but i think most of them run both national/regional.
xover from SS? i don&#39;t think we really have any in this division.

why is a comparison to SS/T more relative than a comparison to SM? the ruleset is closer to SM than it is to SS or T. spec miata isn&#39;t even close to a spec series btw....
[/b]


Then I guess they need to change the name. :P

[gran racing]

People like being competitive w/ less than full-tilt cars. [/b]

Yeah, I typed that too quickly or at least didn&#39;t type what I was trying to say. I will agree that people do like being competitive in less than full-tilt cars. Then again, what is a full tilt car? It&#39;s all relative and based upon perceptions. What I think of full tilt is different than a top IT builder, which is different than what a Champ Car or F1 team would even consider remotely a full tilt car. I&#39;d like the perception of a full tilt car not to be mucho bucks, at least in C, B & A.

Basically what I was trying to get at in that post was not that a new person should not expect to be competive when new, but when they gain some experience and get their cars prepped decently it would be nice if they are not waaaaay behind everyone else still. Essentially if the Serra preped cars are the norm in IT, it sure makes it much more intimidating to get into IT racing. Although the rules would allow much less of a preped car, I would have run in a different series.

[Bill Miller]

Yeah, I typed that too quickly or at least didn&#39;t type what I was trying to say. I will agree that people do like being competitive in less than full-tilt cars. Then again, what is a full tilt car? It&#39;s all relative and based upon perceptions. What I think of full tilt is different than a top IT builder, which is different than what a Champ Car or F1 team would even consider remotely a full tilt car. I&#39;d like the perception of a full tilt car not to be mucho bucks, at least in C, B & A.

Basically what I was trying to get at in that post was not that a new person should not expect to be competive when new, but when they gain some experience and get their cars prepped decently it would be nice if they are not waaaaay behind everyone else still. Essentially if the Serra preped cars are the norm in IT, it sure makes it much more intimidating to get into IT racing. Although the rules would allow much less of a preped car, I would have run in a different series.
[/b]

Dave,

What a full-tilt car is, is not relative. It&#39;s a car that&#39;s built and developed to take maximum advantage of the rules. There are probably more $$$ in dyno time and testing, than there are in hard parts. And it doesn&#39;t matter what a full-tilt car is to a Champ Car or F1 team, we&#39;re talking about IT here. And you used to race in ITA in the NE, Serra prepped cars pretty much are the norm, at the front of the grid. While Anthony didn&#39;t build Greg&#39;s or Andy&#39;s cars, don&#39;t think that their prep level is any less.

And there&#39;s nothing really hidden or magic about it. It&#39;s all pretty much out there for everybody to see. You need to develop the car, and the driver, if you want to be competitive. Some cars will never be competitive, no matter how much $$$ you throw at them, regardless of who&#39;s behind the wheel. If you want to run up front, what it takes is out there for everyone to see. It&#39;s up to each individual to determine how committed they are to getting there.

I love racing because it&#39;s exciting and I have a good time w/ my friends. Winning is great, but I&#39;d rather finish mid-pack, and have a close race w/ somebody the whole time, than go out and win by a lap.

When I first got into racing my ITB Rabbit GTI, Dave Ebersole (ITB 2002) and I used to have some fantastic races. We were both mid-pack cars, but we had a blast racing w/ each other. To me, that&#39;s what it&#39;s about.

[gran racing]

Serra prepped cars pretty much are the norm, at the front of the grid.[/b]

And yes, there are several other top notch built cars out there, its not just a spec serra class. (My engine is actually at Matt Kessler&#39;s shop now - the guy who takes care of Greg&#39;s baby.)

At the front, problem. The fear is these cars will also be the ones running (with a good driver) towards the back of the pack and become the norm if the class is made national.

[lateapex911]

I&#39;m not sure I buy that. I keep pointing to Prod as a comparision, because Prod is like IT (production based) but so UNlike IT.

I think if IT were National, you&#39;d see less of Serra and Greg et al at Regionals, because they&#39;d be going National.

But it is the prep level and the ruleset that makes IT the place so many want to be. Lots of people look at Prod and say, "No thanks...a ton of work, and I&#39;ll be mid pack against THOSE guys with their billet cranks! Sheesh! I&#39;ll go be mid pack in IT! There are more racers, less dicking with the car, less $ to because of the less dicking with the car, and more fun beacuse of that"

Because of the two tiered system, guys like that can still race regionals, and honestly, I bet they might have better finishing positions!

(The downside to me is personal...I&#39;d have to go to more races to see all my friends)

To me, being national has a few major advantages:

Because of the two tiered system, those who want to go big, can, and those who want to stay casual can as well.
The club NEEDS IT in the main picture....IT will attract more newbies than 90% of the rest of the categories. We need to market the club better, and IT is a great way to do it.
I think member retention would be better. The next step from IT is Prod, but so many are loath to take that plunge into the snakepit of rules instability and turfprotectionism, that they start to look elsewhere...like NASA.

[tnord]

i asked this question a while back in this thread or another, i don&#39;t remember, but i didn&#39;t get any responses and i think it&#39;s worth asking again.

what is best for the health of IT? national or regional? is one regional class with 15 participants or one national with 10 entrants and one regional with 7 entrants better for the class?

what is best for the health of the club as a whole? mainly, which scenario will draw in NET ADD drivers?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Sorry Andy, but that&#39;s not true. You CAN build a SM for less than $8K. Will it be towards the pointy end? No. But with a decent driver, it can be mid-pack. There&#39;s no need to start a poll if people think it is possible or not. People have done it and it&#39;s simply a fact, not an opinion. Remember, not everyone builds a car to your standards and sees the same "this part needs to be replaced" the way you might.

[/b]

Dave wrote the above but with respect to Bill, there is no running 1.6 with a hardtop worth a pile of crap for sale in the past few years for $1K. In going through the numbers, you would have to make a TON of unsafe (or unwise) assumptions about your donor car (especially at $2500 with a hardtop) in order to come in under $8K. Things like ball joints, clutch, pressure plate etc would have to go unchanged. NOT a wise move in a racecar. Remember, in SM, you have to buy most of the parts up front just to be legal. In IT, you can at least do a slow build and still be legal. Competitive is another topic.

[Speed Raycer]

And how many of the other National-eligible cars run the Regional? [/b]

[T&S Chief hat on] I can&#39;t speak for the other tracks in MiDiv, but at Gateway, we see quite a few National guys running the regional days. Most of the National guys that do run on Saturday are MiDiv guys, not so much the out of Division guys which I always thought was odd, but maybe we&#39;re the oddballs ;)
[/T&S]

[Greg Amy]

...a caveat to Scott&#39;s post, since I&#39;m an old SoWDiv/MidDiv guy: a lot (all?) of the National race weekends were (are?) Regional/National combined, where the Regional was (is?) run on Saturday and the National on Sunday. If you were planning on doing the Natl, there was very littel reason not to enter the Regl.

Up here in NeDiv, National and Regional weekends are discrete; that is, never the twain shall meet. For a National-centric guy to run Regionals requires digging out the checkbook and equipment for a whole &#39;nother weekend.

Greg, 1990 MidDiv SSA champ...

[JoshS]

...a caveat to Scott&#39;s post, since I&#39;m an old SoWDiv/MidDiv guy: a lot (all?) of the National race weekends were (are?) Regional/National combined, where the Regional was (is?) run on Saturday and the National on Sunday. If you were planning on doing the Natl, there was very littel reason not to enter the Regl.
[/b]

Here in NorPac, at our occasional regional/national weekends, the national is usually Saturday and the regional Sunday. I didn&#39;t run a single regional race ... made more sense to pack up and go home after the national, rather than sticking around another day. Occasionally people I know would ENTER the regional just to get additional track time during those regional practice and qualifying sessions, as those would sometimes occur before the national race. But very few stuck around for the regional race itself.

But even if the regional were before the national, I probably wouldn&#39;t have run them, just for fear of damaging the car before the race that really mattered.

[tnord]

still run the same way greg. only exception being nationals at topeka are all by themself because you can&#39;t make the logistics work by adding regional only classes in addition to the 200+ national entries.

i think nationals are run on sunday to make it easier on people traveling long distances for the race. a lot/some of people use the regional on suday as a "test day." they&#39;ll start from the back, run 1/2 the race to make sure everything works, then pull in.

[Bill Miller]

Dave wrote the above but with respect to Bill, there is no running 1.6 with a hardtop worth a pile of crap for sale in the past few years for $1K. In going through the numbers, you would have to make a TON of unsafe (or unwise) assumptions about your donor car (especially at $2500 with a hardtop) in order to come in under $8K. Things like ball joints, clutch, pressure plate etc would have to go unchanged. NOT a wise move in a racecar. Remember, in SM, you have to buy most of the parts up front just to be legal. In IT, you can at least do a slow build and still be legal. Competitive is another topic.
[/b]


Andy,

What I cited was an anecdotal case. I could have purchase a complete, running 1.6 car w/ a hardtop for $1200. It&#39;s my understanding that that&#39;s what hardtops are going for these days. So, I should have bought the car and flipped it for $2500. ;) The point I was making, is that it&#39;s possible to build a car for not a huge pile of $$. Won&#39;t be a front-runner, but it will get you out there.