GCR RUle # 9.1.4 feedback wanted...

[RSTPerformance]

From a couple other posts...

9.1.4. Off-Course Excursions
"The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion."

A few of the tracks I race at have "normal lines" that you could argue go outside the "marked course." I, like everyone else at the front, do follow the fast line which may or may not be the argued paved portion of the track outside the marked course.

What marks the course? A white Line, curbs, dragons teath, rumble strips, the edge of the pavement, the supplemental regulations, ...?

My examples:
Lime Rock - Uphill & West bend
NHIS - Turn 3 (Apex) & Turn 11
Watkins Glen - Turn 1
Road Atlanta - Turn 5 (? bottom of "S's")

Food for thought, feel free to add additional tracks/turns to the list of "off course" advantages that we all take lap after lap.

Raymond

[JimLill]

They (re)stated at WGI this past FunOne weekend that excursions around the T1 rumble strips are not legal if used to gain an advantage.

[planet6racing]

But, if you take 5 at Road Atlanta right, you end up on the "other track" and, while you may not be passing someone there, you should have carried more speed which will give you an advantage when you do go to pass someone...

hmm... Interesting question. :eclipsee_steering:

[Knestis]

The only time I've ever been black-flagged (Rose Cup Regionals practice session at Portland, ages ago) was because I was driving over the curbs rather than around them. In some cases (old T7) my OUTSIDE tires were on the curb and my INSIDE tires were a car width inside of it.

While it probably goes without saying that there are some corners where the curb, ruts, holes, puddles, etc. make this a bad practice, I thought I was a victim of a Nanny Steward at the time, who patiently told me that he was just looking out for my interests - that it was "unsafe" to leap over curbs in a softly sprung, 55-hp Franco-American commuter car.

I (perhaps foolish in my youth) suggested that, "I thought when I paid my entry fee, I rented the WHOLE track." He wasn't particularly amused. I backed off a little and never heard about it again but the lesson I learned is that there aren't any hard and fast answers to this kind of question - like those "too fast for conditions" citations that highway troopers can give in some states.

K

[dickita15]

Over many years I have seen stewards try to enforce a “white line rule”. The always get tired of it and give up after a weekend or two. It is interesting as I think back on it I do no think any of the stewards taking on this cause ever having raced.

[CaptainWho]

At Road Atlanta, between T3 and T5, strict enforcement of a "white line" rule would add a couple of seconds a lap to IT times. :D

At Road Atlanta, between T3 and T5, strict enforcement of a "white line" rule would add a couple of seconds a lap to IT times. :D

Watch James Weaver in the #16 Dyson go through T3 at Road Atlanta some time. I don't know how good the camera work at the Petit or AGP is, but I've worked that corner during IMSA prototype practice and watched the man give driving lessons to every other swinging dick out there. Sometimes he hit those curbs harder in that prototype than a lot of the IT cars I see. OTOH, most of the time, he just "smoothed" his way through. I don't know which is faster for him ... we don't have iCard out at the corners.

But even he uses all of the pavement at track out at T5 ... more than a car width past the rumble strips and the white line.

I'd love to see him and Duncan Daynton go hammer and tongs at Road Atlanta some time in "identical" cars.

[BillH]

At Summit Point there is black asphalt about one car width wide outside the red and white painted curbing at track out of turn 10. The asphalt has small ditches in it at right angles to the direction cars are going. The turn is very fast and leads onto the long straight. It has been the scene of many incidents where drivers went off to the outside trying to get the last bit of speed. The asphalt was put there a few years ago, as I understand it, to "save" cars whose drivers overcook turn 10 and slide past the curbing at trackout. The idea was that the ditches would discourage routine use. But you have to use the black stuff, ditches notwithstanding, unless you want to be really slow on the most important corner on the track. Virtually everyone does, except formula cars and others without sufficient ground clearance to handle the bumps created by the ditches. I have never heard it suggested that using this stuff was illegal, but maybe the cited rule could be read to make it so. That would make for a huge enfrocement hassle. Has anyone else had any experience with the application of this rule to Summit turn 10?

[JamesB]

The extra surface with gatorsteeth was installed in 2001 and even that year it was hit time after time in the national and regional races. Anytime you give more space to a turn drivers will use it. in this case I believe it was needed. Now my car tracks out just to the edge of that, but a few times I have cooked the turns that ride is a lot nicer then some of the rides I have seen IT cars take when they go beyond that.

I still have the picture in my mind at the 12 hour when a miata cooked it and just past that area in track out cought 2-3 feet of air to luckilly land true and continue down the side of the track and reenter safely.

[zracre]

If we were not allowed to use all the paved area on track out at RA...oh 90% of the people would have many seconds added...I think thats where it says paved area. Daytona has the same thing in the horseshoe...track out takes you to a small access road.

[charrbq]

Sorta depends on the SOM's and the track. I've seen a case where a FWD car was putting the outside wheels on the apex of the curb and bouncing over the grass. It kicked up dirt and grass on the track which caused traction problems with other cars. The stewards did nothing and not black flag was issued, but, as per the supps, the driver was sent a bill for damage to the property. I'd rather have a black flag.

I know of at least one very talented IT driver, (not the same one as above) who uses the inside of an apex for his outside wheels on almost every turn. He was threatened to be black flagged by a steward once, but another steward that knows his driving style, intervened. The black flag steward considered him to be out of control. Cooler minds prevailed.

It's tough to do T3 at Atlanta without using the curb. If a SM is near you, he'll either use it to pass you, or run you off into it. I've tried to stay withing the course at T5, but it's slow, slow, slow. I also tried a slightly wider line through it once, but the wall impeeded my speed. T7 can be taken over the berm, but the odds of it being successful are really slim.

When in doubt, check the supps. Either that, or, if there's a driver's meeting, ask the Chief what his ruling is. In place of no clear ruling, they can decided for you.

[spnkzss]

At Summit Point there is black asphalt about one car width wide outside the red and white painted curbing at track out of turn 10. The asphalt has small ditches in it at right angles to the direction cars are going. The turn is very fast and leads onto the long straight. It has been the scene of many incidents where drivers went off to the outside trying to get the last bit of speed. The asphalt was put there a few years ago, as I understand it, to "save" cars whose drivers overcook turn 10 and slide past the curbing at trackout. The idea was that the ditches would discourage routine use. But you have to use the black stuff, ditches notwithstanding, unless you want to be really slow on the most important corner on the track. Virtually everyone does, except formula cars and others without sufficient ground clearance to handle the bumps created by the ditches. I have never heard it suggested that using this stuff was illegal, but maybe the cited rule could be read to make it so. That would make for a huge enfrocement hassle. Has anyone else had any experience with the application of this rule to Summit turn 10?
[/b]

II have never heard anyone complain. If I'm not out there every lap, I'm not going through the turn fast enough. I have passed people out there, but that was because I had no place else to go. I either had to go around or through, so I choice around. I had multiple instances of this last 2 races. My car was down on power which kept me back with the slower cars, but through the corners the car handled great. Catching somone ni turn 10 at a closing rate of 10-20mph is a....... "facinating" experience.

Turn 1 at WGI just asks for the rule to be broken. If you go in deep, make the pass by apex, go off onto the pavement outside the curb on track out, is that illegal? If so, I broke it half a dozen times in one weekend.

[Chris Wire]

Sorta depends on the SOM's and the track. I've seen a case where a FWD car was putting the outside wheels on the apex of the curb and bouncing over the grass.[/b]

2000 ARRC
Road Atlanta T10 a&b

VERY fast ITB Accord did that nearly every lap.

Ironically, I think a broken suspension put him out.

[pgipson]

At PIR (in AZ) we have 2 areas that can cut tenths off a lap if you go wide right. We also have white lines painted on the black stuff that delineate just where "track" ends on "off track" begins in those areas. The rule (and it VERY strictly enforced) is 2 wheels over is OK, 4 is not. Each time a corner workers sees a car shortcutting the course it gets called in. Do it twice in a session and you get a discussion with the steward. 3 times gets you a black flag discussion with a steward. :bash_1_:

[DaveITB1]

Racing in the Fun One at WGI last weekend, I saw that "infraction" happen first hand.

While one yellow Volvo was passing me on the pavement on the right, going down the back straight heading for the bus stop, a 2nd Volvo was passing down the grass strip on the left. I watched him put up a rooster tail of grass clippings just as I was passing the White Golf. It happens @2:30 in the video clip.

Based on the discussion, should I have gone to the stewards with this pass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OhrCWL3Xc

[Knestis]

I have a sense from the video that the Golf and Volvos were lapping you. If that's the case, it seems like there's a substantial difference between someone short-cutting the course to gain a position and someone taking to the grass to get past a slower race for position, while racing someone themselves, so as not to lose momentum.

K

[kthomas]

T3 at Road Atlanta: If your inside tires never touch the dirt and your outside tires are on the curb is it still legal? :) That's what we do...

[itracer]

Racing in the Fun One at WGI last weekend, I saw that "infraction" happen first hand.

While one yellow Volvo was passing me on the pavement on the right, going down the back straight heading for the bus stop, a 2nd Volvo was passing down the grass strip on the left. I watched him put up a rooster tail of grass clippings just as I was passing the White Golf. It happens @2:30 in the video clip.

Based on the discussion, should I have gone to the stewards with this pass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OhrCWL3Xc
[/b]

Without more evidence, I do not think that your video is enough to prove that he went four off. Video from behind or another witness and maybe you would win a protest.

[DaveITB1]

I disagree. I think "substantial difference" is a bit strong. The "course" (read pavement) was being short-cutted.

While the Red Golf and the 2 Volvos were lapping me, they were in fact gaining position over me (going 1 lap up and finishing 1 lap ahead of me). There have been many times were I have had to get on the binders and lose momentum while racing someone else, because "the door was closed" by a slower car(s) and my line was cut off.

You can see the 2 Volvos approaching in my side mirror. It's quick, but its there. They are staggered in their approach. And as for racing room, the White Golf was on the left side of the track, I was down the center, and there was at least a 1.5 car width space down the right side of the back straight. The 2nd Volvo had to come back off the grass (a more slippery surface) and stabilize the car, causing him to shoot over to the right and giving him a less than ideal angle for the right turn.

As for racing room? It was there. Would passing on the right have made the 2nd volvo have to brake harder for the right hander? I doubt no more than what he had to do passing the way he did. But both the white car and I left racing room. And don't forget, I too was racing, passing the white car.

Does this keep me up at night? Of course not. But going off pavement, whether intentional or not, increases the risk of injury to your car, other's cars, and possibly even our volunteer corner workers....

[itracer]

I have a sense from the video that the Golf and Volvos were lapping you. If that's the case, it seems like there's a substantial difference between someone short-cutting the course to gain a position and someone taking to the grass to get past a slower race for position, while racing someone themselves, so as not to lose momentum.

K
[/b]

I disagree. There is nothing in the rules that makes a lapping car any different from any other racer out there. If the pass is unsafe, it is unsafe – period. If a driver breaks the rule by going off, he/she breaks the rule. If it was to avoid an accident (i.e. if the white golf pinches him off the track because he gets spooked by the train going to his right), then I would rule differently.

[DaveITB1]

Hey Jason,

Point taken. There weren't any others behind us. As I glanced over the hood of the white Golf, 4 were definitely off, but you're right. It's only one guy making the statement.

According to My Laps, Daniel DeBell was driving the #13 Yellow Volvo, and Joel High was in the #14 White Golf. He could probably confirm if 2, 3, or 4 were off.

I didn't mean to make a big deal of this. Just wanted to show what I saw in my race with regards to Raymond's original question.

Dave

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dave,

I agree with Kirk. The rule DOES talk about gaining position. If you are in 10th - and are getting lapped - you have lost no positions. You are still in 10th.

The only person with a beef would be the guy he WAS racing with for position IMHO. He illegally used space that was no allotted to him in the rules to stay in the pack.

[DaveITB1]

Dave,

I agree with Kirk. The rule DOES talk about gaining position. If you are in 10th - and are getting lapped - you have lost no positions. You are still in 10th.

The only person with a beef would be the guy he WAS racing with for position IMHO. He illegally used space that was no allotted to him in the rules to stay in the pack.
[/b]


Hi Andy,

I was looking at it from overall finishing position in the race, not just in class. Your point is well taken.

[RSTPerformance]

Interesting discussion... I would agree with Jason that the video alone doesn't show anything to penalize anyone for. The volvo appeared to be clear and didn't hit anyone. Also while the video shows that track room might have been an issue on the left it certainly doesn't show him in the grass. I am sure with witness statements and what not you might be able to if you were actually upset, but as you mention I think you are just showing a video for discussion, and you never had intended on filing any action.

A couple comments on the pass though...

A) He has some friggen &@!!$... that is some great talent to be able to drive the car at that speed through the grass to complete a pass. Cudo's on that!!!

B) I have passed in the grass before to avoid contact and take the "easy way around." I was 100% comfortable and confident, but everytime I have done that I certainly have gone, wow thats the last time I want to do that!!! It is risky, and I do have to ask on this pass, if he did go in the grass was it avoiding an incident? was it necessary? Why not just follow the other car through? Might be something for us all to think about :)

but thanks everyone for the interesting discussions on safe shortcuts that have become the norm... interestingly, when NHIS changed the track by adding pavement it was obviose that new track records were going to be made, It was cool that many clubs that ran at NHIS had records prior to X date and records after X date. I wonder if other tracks have done this?

thanks everyone, certainly interesting comments (to me anyway)!!!

Raymond

[gprodracer]

Since I've been known to throw gas on a fire....

Would everyone be of the same opinion (its cool, he was lapping the camera car, and battling for position) if the 2nd Volvo would have lost it in front of the BMW and the Golf, taking all 3 cars out?
Sorry, but I have to disagree. An illegal pass is illegal, whether it is for 1st or 25th. IMO, that didn't take "balls", that was stupid and dangerous. I would have "discussed" that manuver with the driver of the 2nd Volvo as as politely as possible. If I didn't feel my message had gotten thru, I may have shown the video to an official, so that the driver could be monitored in the next race.

Some times you have to suck it up and brake for the slower traffic, so we all can race another day. Allowing that kind of manuver to become acceptable is how other classes have become crashfests at every event.
That type of manuver could have gone horribly wrong in many ways. We all should know better than that, especially those of us that have a "few" years under our belts.

Comment away, but consider what "could" have happened to at least 3 cars at that speed. Anyone who has been injured, or has had someone close to them hurt doing what we love might re-consider.

Mark

[RSTPerformance]

I mention that he has &@!!$ because it is dangerouse, and it would take talent to controle the car... but... my follow up questions also indicated that I agee with your statements

" I do have to ask on this pass, if he did go in the grass was it avoiding an incident? was it necessary? Why not just follow the other car through? Might be something for us all to think about :)"

I do want to say though that this pass on the video is missing something, wich many times changes the story... it is missing the other side of the story. To be honest I am a friend of Dave and respect him a lot, but I do find it very interesting and hard to believe that a car would have that much horsepower difference and handling ability (these are not Audi Quattros) to be able to just pull into the grass and make a pass like that, something else had to be going on. If nothing was going on and he just chose to pass in the grass, then I agree 100% that it is illigal, unsafe, and unessesary.

While this new discussion is not 100% in alighnment of my original post, it certainly is interesting that both really do fall under the same rules, including safety/rekless driving issues.

Raymond

[Knestis]

...and make sure that your answer is clear enough to cover all of the possible situations and degrees of "off."

** two wheels in the grass

** two wheels in the place where the grass used to be until all of the people driving over it turned it into hard packed dirt

** two wheels in loose dirt where the grass used to be

** two wheels in the loose dirt on the track, pulled out there by people doing any of the above :)

** two wheels off when I'm committed to an inside pass and the passee moves to the inside because he hasn't seen me coming, forcing me into either of the above

** two wheels off when I'm committed and the passee decides he's just going to scoot over on me in a defensive move

** two wheels in the air over the grass, when I leap over the curb

** any of the above lapping someone in my class

** any of the above passing someone who's not in my class

** any of the above lapping someone not in my class

** an off, where I understeer to the outside and come back on the track losing a position

** the same off, only not losing a position - less of a loss is "an advantage," right?

** the same off where I shortcut to the next corner, moving a second ahead of the person I'm racing with (there's a freebie for you)

K

EDIT - OOH! How about driving off track to avoid someone spinning ON the track? I've gained an advantage by not caving in the front of my car. :)

EDIT EDIT - and to be clear, let's not conflate "off course" with "dangerous." They are covered by entirely different rules and it is not sufficient evidence that any given action is one, just because it is the other. Or not, as the case may be. I've seen plenty of dangerous moves that never went anywhere near off the track, and vice-versa.

[RSTPerformance]

kirk-

I thought you quit the rules nerd stuff :018:

:birra: Raymond

[gprodracer]

Well, here we go....

Raymond, my observations were not intended as a direct slam on you, or your friend Dave, just an opinion as to what I saw on the video. We all know how easy it is to comment on a race manuver from our couch. I'm sure Dave is a good guy, but IMO, he made a bad (and dangerous) decision on how he dealt with lapped traffic. I agree that he showed amazing car control to pull that off, but I think that we can agree that he also got somewhat lucky that nothing went wrong. That is all I was trying to point out.

Kirk, I'm not sure what the message of your post was. FWD cars and RWD cars have different areas on each track where "shortcutting" in various ways will benefit lap times. Two wheels off on the inside (or outside) of the curbs will not cause you to get any penalty (at most tracks that I have run) in most instances. Four wheels off the paved surface will merit a penalty of some sort, at the tracks I've run (admittedly, mostly in the SEDIV). Whether it is passing for position, or lapping a backmarker makes no difference.

My comments were made based on the video of the BMW driver. I stand by my belief that the 2nd Volvo driver made an unsafe (and possibly illegal) pass while trying to keep up with the 1st Volvo. While it looked cool, and he came through unscathed, would we all have a different opinion if it had gone wrong, and 3 cars were totaled, and (God forbid) someone got hurt?

Mark

[tderonne]

I'm not quite sure I'm learning anything about 9.1.4.

How about this. In qualifying, can I go 1, 2, 3, or 4 wheels off to improve my laptime? Is that an advantage?

The curbs at Topeka are quite small, and the corners are quite slow. Using the curbs is probably required for the fastest lap. Are other stewards talking about this? Runoff could get interesting...

[lateapex911]

Well, here we go....


Kirk, I'm not sure what the message of your post was..........


Mark
[/b]


Mark, Mark, Mark...... I know you have to be kidding us there! I got his point on the third line. Maybe I was predisposed, though.

[Knestis]

My point - poorly made, probably - is that there are no absolutes in this area. And a move that's "illegal" isn't the same thing (necessarily) as one that is dangerous.

That's all.

K

[pgipson]

In qualifying, can I go 1, 2, 3, or 4 wheels off to improve my laptime?[/b]

What do the supps say? That is where the definition of "the track surface" foa each track should be clarified, if there is any doubt. Sort of like ground rules in baseball, right. If the ball hits to the left of this spot it's a foul, to the right it's a homer. Each track will have certain unique characteristics that should be defined in the supps, including what is "in bounds" and what is "out of bounds".

[RSTPerformance]

I don't know of anything happaning at any future races, and I am sure nothing will happen at the Runoffs. The issue from what I have witnessed is ONLY an issue at Lime Rock (uphill) and from what other said at WG (turn 1). I am wondering what is different about those turns than others that we go "off track."

Mark-

I do agree with you. but I do have to correct you, Dave doesn't drive the Volvo, he was in the car where the video came from and a Dave was in the white VW. I don't know who the driver of the second volvo is, I don't think I have ever sceen the car before... he is probably a rally driver to be able to handle the "ride." :wacko:

Raymond

[DaveITB1]

According to My Laps, Daniel DeBell was driving the #13 Yellow Volvo, and Joel High was in the #14 White Golf.


Dave
[/b]


FYI.

[bldn10]

Like many in the GCR, 9.1.4. actually contains 2 rules. The first is general and says you have to follow the "pavement or marked course;" the second is a vestige of the old days when most racing was done on old air bases - the so-called "airport rules" - and is specific to artificially marked courses. Here at Memphis we have a section that goes through an expanse of pavement and the "course" is "marked" by paint and cones. In our Supps we modify the requirement to re-enter at the point of departure because in most cases it would be counter-race. Not good.

So, if we are dealing w/ a couse or section of a course that is not an airport circuit or artificially marked, all the Rule says is that we have to follow the pavement. By "follow" I assume that means stay w/i the outer edges of the pavement. It does not expressly say anything about the no. of wheels that have to follow it but the "airport rule" section could be applied by analogy to define what "off-course" means. I.e. 4 wheels off. Otherwise, it's all 4 wheels w/i the edges of the pavement. If this sounds too restrictive let's take it to the extreme: you can drive the entire course in the grass w/ only the minutest contact by the shoulder of one or more tires w/ the pavement. Do we really think that is right? Lot less restrictive would be the interpretation that more of the car has to be w/i the edges than not. That would allow 2 wheels off but make the practice of cutting corners w/ only 2 tires [left side tires in a right turn a la T3 at Road Atlanta] grazing the pavement illegal. I'm for that.

But then you have to define what the "pavement" is. I.e. does it include curbing, dragon's teeth, etc.? IMO if the curbing is raised and outside the edge of the pavement, it is not part of the "pavement" and you are not on-course just by touching it. It is there to keep cars inside the track - not to extend the width of the track.

So that would be my rule: At least 2 wheels and 1/2 car width on/over the pavement not counting raised curbing outside the edge of the pavement. Thus, the Volvo in the video would not have violated 9.1.4. unless he was more than 1/2 out in the grass. Now, he may have violated another rule, but not 9.1.4.

[Chris Wire]

Would everyone be of the same opinion (its cool, he was lapping the camera car, and battling for position) if the 2nd Volvo would have lost it in front of the BMW and the Golf, taking all 3 cars out?
Sorry, but I have to disagree. An illegal pass is illegal, whether it is for 1st or 25th. IMO, that didn't take "balls", that was stupid and dangerous. [/b]

I had the same reaction to that video as I did watching the punk kid in his lowrider pickup pass the semi on the shoulder of the interstate at 70mph+ the other day. Neither one was very smart.

[gprodracer]

Chris... :023:

Jake..small dig at Kirk..I should have started a new paragraph after I said I didn't get his message.

Kirk...points well taken, others may have percieved a more literal interpretation of all of your examples.

To all, as Kirk said, there is no hard line answer. Local officials judgements will apply at every racetrack we go to. If in doubt, ask about it at the drivers meetings, as we all know that we will use any pavement if it might help us go faster.

Good discussion though, and thank you Dave in the BMW for providing the video. Excellent example!

Mark