Programmable ECU

[C. Ludwig]

What if someone could seriously undercut the price of the Motec option? Who would be interested and what should the price point be? The system in mind wouldn't have the resolution of the Motec but it would offer full programmablity for spark and fuel as well as datalogging capabilities. It would be laptop programmable with no pots or screws to turn. Basic specs would include...

10x10 fuel tuning MAP v. RPM
19x21 ignition timing leading and trailing MAP v. RPM
datalogging of stock sensors with undetermined capacity
general analog inputs for datalogging of EGT, AFR, ect.
OMP limp mode removal for S5 ECUs
user defined RPM limit

Discuss please.

[lateapex911]

interested, espec for general applications. size is critical with the "in the box" rule.

a good easy to understand app is very key as well.

[tom_sprecher]

I do not know what a Motec system goes for but if it could be done for less and still provide enough income to make it worthwhile someone would be doing it.

[C. Ludwig]

Size isn't a problem. The system I'm referring to is a modded stock board. Not a stuffed unit.

And Tom, if I had time to complete the development I could undercut Speedsource by half using a Haltech board and still make money. The Motec is overkill and overpriced, IMO, for our application.

[gran racing]

Would you be doing this just for Mazda cars or others as well? (I'd be interested if it could be done for my Honda too.)

[its66]

Chris,
I would think there would be several interested in "reasonably" priced alternative. I can't justify(afford) the price for the current Motec option. If the pricing was lass than, say, a Microtech LT10, I would probably have to submit a purchase order to my Chief Financial Officer (wife) ......

The limp mode removal would be a serious plus for us S5 guys.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Dave - There are programs available to modify an OBD0 Honda ECU. I don't have first hand experience, but they exist to my knowledge.

[C. Ludwig]

Would you be doing this just for Mazda cars or others as well? (I'd be interested if it could be done for my Honda too.)
[/b]


Hondata... You already have an amazingly well suited option.

[Eagle7]

I think there would be a good market for it if it's pretty plug-n-play. It would be a big time-saver if it runs fairly well out of the box. Your closest competition is probably a Megasquirt, but nobody is offering that in the OEM enclosure. My Megasquirt has taken a great deal of time to set up and tune well - pretty much there now.

I'm guessing $500 would stir up a lot business. $1000 might be a tough sell.



general analog inputs for datalogging of EGT, AFR, ect.
[/b]
I've struggled with this issue with my Megasquirt. Seems like there's no way to get the signals into the box during competition events. My wideband O2 sensor connects to a pigtail sticking out of a hole in an ECU cover that's only used during test days. Likewise, my datalogging requires an external device (I usually use a Palm Pilot). The Palm connection goes through that same hole.

[ITSROTARY7]

I have heard quotes of the megasquirt running about $500, but I also question the legal issue that you have to make the megasquirt work in a 2nd gen rx-7 which is you have to remove some teeth of the CAS unit to get it to work with the stock components.

If you can get a computer to work inside a stock computer box and run with all stock sensors. I would easily pay $600-$1000.

[Eagle7]

... I also question the legal issue that you have to make the megasquirt work in a 2nd gen rx-7 which is you have to remove some teeth of the CAS unit to get it to work with the stock components.
[/b]
Not true. Stock CAS, all stock sensors, stock harness, no extra connections to the ECU box.

[gran racing]

Hondata... You already have an amazingly well suited option. [/b]

Won't work with my ECU. :(

[Jeremy Billiel]

Won't work with my ECU. :(
[/b]

Dave - Look into this.... I am not sure what your ECU is, but I am pretty sure it can be chipped.

\\http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=8dd3dcd49751da623e20ec5177e5d143

You will also need to use a program called TurboEdit to modify the code.

[C. Ludwig]

To make this a little more transparent...

I've been in communication with a gentleman for about a year that does work of this nature. We are currently looking at Beta testing in about a month. The way my scheduling works that means around Thanksgiving. I have a couple cars lined up for dyno time as soon as I have a product in hand. The interface is proven and there is no doubt that this will become a viable product. It will be manufactured by a 3rd party.

Pricing has yet to be determined. Like most of you I want it to be sub $1000 but I can't make promises at this point. The other products the engineer currently has on the market are well south of that figure.

I'll post more info when it becomes available.

[lateapex911]

The "perfect product" would be:

-small
-adaptable to multiple inputs and modes
-straight forward to program
-powerful
-and cheap.

I think that if you can come close to the known players in those areas, but at a better price point with better user friendliness, you are on to something.

[Eagle7]

Not true. Stock CAS, all stock sensors, stock harness, no extra connections to the ECU box.
[/b]
I got to thinking that maybe some clarification is warranted here. The MegaSquirt is by nature a do-it-yourself project that nearly always requires some level of hardware customization to fit it to a particular vehicle. Various components on the circuit board are populated or not populated, or connected in various ways to fit the application. Sometimes additional components are required for an application. These adaptions are usually well-documented for popular applications.

In addition to the hardware issues, there are firmware configuration files that sometimes must be customized to make the firmware work for the application.

Adaptions that I recall making for the RX-7 are: Alternative heat sink mount to facilitate mounting in the ECU case
Alternative computer connection connector and mount
Customization to the circuit board and the internals of the ECU case
Custom connections from the circuit board to the ECU harness connector
Elimination of onboard MAP sensor
Thermal sensor bias resistor values
Ignition bias resistors and jumpers
Additional VR circuit for CAS sync wheel
Alternate driver for BAC valve
Noise suppression capacitors on various sensor inputs
Custom MAP configuration files
Custom thermal sensor configuration files

All hardware adaptions are inside the box.

[C. Ludwig]

Update...finally.

I received a beta unit about a month ago. We took an ITS car to a Dynojet this past week. Baseline results were 166whp peak. A/F ratio was a very consistent 12.1:1 up to 7000 rpm where it dipped a full point rich through shut down at 8400. Peak power was at 7300. We played with the fuel pressure and timing to optimize, as best we could, the stock ECU configuration. Like I've noticed on these applications, we had to run very low pressure to get anywhere close to optimal a/f ratio. To the point atomization is certainly suffering. In the end with the pressure regulator as the only control we couldn't approach optimum a/f ratios.

Plugged in the modded ECU which had a stock pogram and made an initial run that pretty much duplicated what we had with the other box. What you would expect. Being a new system I spent quite a bit of time learning the interface and I didn't get as much done as I wanted to before we called it a day. We were shooting for an a/f ratio of 13.5:1. What we did manage to do was make 2 more hp at peak, 10 more hp from 5500-7000, and as much as 16 more hp from 7500-8400. The low peak results were based on the fact that I never got the a/f trimmed right in that particular area. It's entirely possible to get the fuel properly trimmed I just didn't get it done in the allotted time. I would suspect 3-5 additional hp is available by properly trimming the fuel.

Timing adjustments are a breeze. No need to twist the CAS while shooting the pulley with a light. Once you have the CAS properly set and zeroed out you can dial in seperate adjustments for leading and trailing through the software. Want 25* advance and 2* split? Dial it up.

In the end the day was a success. The ECU and interface worked flawlessly. The gains were real and repeatable. Pricing has been set at $450 + shipping. I'm waiting on word for what the production release date will be. On that I am at the mercy of the manufacturer. The ECU is current rule legal. No need to wait on a rule change. Tuning support and programs will be available but just so I am clear this is a programmable unit that will require dyno work to provide optimum results. I'll post again when I have an idea of when they'll be production ready.

[dj10]

Update...finally.

I received a beta unit about a month ago. We took an ITS car to a Dynojet this past week. Baseline results were 166whp peak. A/F ratio was a very consistent 12.1:1 up to 7000 rpm where it dipped a full point rich through shut down at 8400. Peak power was at 7300. We played with the fuel pressure and timing to optimize, as best we could, the stock ECU configuration. Like I've noticed on these applications, we had to run very low pressure to get anywhere close to optimal a/f ratio. To the point atomization is certainly suffering. In the end with the pressure regulator as the only control we couldn't approach optimum a/f ratios.

Plugged in the modded ECU which had a stock pogram and made an initial run that pretty much duplicated what we had with the other box. What you would expect. Being a new system I spent quite a bit of time learning the interface and I didn't get as much done as I wanted to before we called it a day. We were shooting for an a/f ratio of 13.5:1. What we did manage to do was make 2 more hp at peak, 10 more hp from 5500-7000, and as much as 16 more hp from 7500-8400. The low peak results were based on the fact that I never got the a/f trimmed right in that particular area. It's entirely possible to get the fuel properly trimmed I just didn't get it done in the allotted time. I would suspect 3-5 additional hp is available by properly trimming the fuel.

Timing adjustments are a breeze. No need to twist the CAS while shooting the pulley with a light. Once you have the CAS properly set and zeroed out you can dial in seperate adjustments for leading and trailing through the software. Want 25* advance and 2* split? Dial it up.

In the end the day was a success. The ECU and interface worked flawlessly. The gains were real and repeatable. Pricing has been set at $450 + shipping. I'm waiting on word for what the production release date will be. On that I am at the mercy of the manufacturer. The ECU is current rule legal. No need to wait on a rule change. Tuning support and programs will be available but just so I am clear this is a programmable unit that will require dyno work to provide optimum results. I'll post again when I have an idea of when they'll be production ready. [/b]



Would this work on ITR BMW's? :D

[IPRESS]

How about in a OBDI Miata?

[C. Ludwig]

Sorry guys. S5 RX-7 only at this time. The Miata would be a great platform to start work on. I'll mention it.

As an update to the ECU we're working on now. There will be options to lock out the timing v. coolant map providing for full timing regardless of temp. It's a competition only feature with the associated use at your own risk disclaimer.

The rev limit will also be upped to 9000 rpm. We felt this was a reasonable number. Comments?

We're also adding fuel control to 9000 rpm. Currently the last cell covers 7800-rev limit.

[Eagle7]

Chris, first of all, sounds like a great offering at an attractive price point. :023:



What are the OMP implications? I assume that premixing is mandatory and that limp mode is eliminated.

[Andy Bettencourt]

How about in a OBDI Miata? [/b]

1 week until ours gets finalized. The beauty is that you will be able to buy it ready to go.

As for the RX-7 version, we hope to become a Ludwig customer.

[crushed]

I would be interested in this for the street car if it performed all the functions of the stock ECU (OMP, VDI, 5&6 ports).

How is it reprogrammed? Is it as easy as slapping a serial cable on the ECU and tweaking some software on a laptop?

[C. Ludwig]

The OMP function is something we're working on. Currently it's in a stock operation mode. The originally intended market is street cars but I'm pushing for a "track" mode. I'm getting what I want it's just taking time. The developer has already produced a "chip" that has the OMP feedback loop deleted. Leaves the pump operational but eliminates limp mode. This is something that should be incorporated for the "track" mode final product.

The 6PI and VDI functions are not only retained but are tuneable. You can reset those parameters at your desire. The AWS system is also user defineable. The underlying use for this in a street application is as an aux output. Since the AWS system is not that desireable you can use the output to control something else if desired. For "track" mode we're looking at using the AWS at WOT the same as the others are using the BAC valve. Introducing more air into the plenum than the throttle body can move by itself. The BAC function is NOT user programmable.

Of note for the street user is that the system will support AFM removal turning the system into a speed density type system. It also supports optional injector configurations up to 720/720. More injector than you'll need for an NA car but simple turbo swaps become possible.

The interface is strictly Palm OS. You need a Palm or something compatible. Since I had no prior Palm experience I was skeptical but it turns out to be pretty handy. Palms are available for a song on Ebay (mine was actually given to me by a friend). In addition you'll need a synch cable for your particular Palm that connects it to a standard serial port.

[wlfpkrcn]

When will they be available?

[C. Ludwig]

Sorry, we don't have a release date yet.

[wlfpkrcn]

No problem, keep us posted

[tnord]

1 week until ours gets finalized. The beauty is that you will be able to buy it ready to go.

[/b]

so........it's been a week......

:money burn:

[Andy Bettencourt]

so........it's been a week......

:money burn: [/b]

Good reminder...I found - at the wheels (in DynoJets)

8hp at the peak
8ft/lbs at the peak
As much as 11.1whp and 11.7 ft/lbs in some spots
Raised the whole curve up almost 4hp and 4ft/lbs
Extended my 'core' hp curve (as defined by me of over 130whp) from the 6000 to 6800 range to 5400 to 7200
Extended my 'core' tq curve (as defined by me of over 120ft/lbs) from the 4700 to 5300 range to 4400 to 6000

We also were strapped for time so we only really focused on nailing the A/F and ignition timing over 4500RPM.

[tnord]

HOLY CRAP!!!!

what's this magic box cost? 1.8 only for now i assume?

[BillH]

Andy, I have been talking a bit to Kelly about you new ECU. Sounds very impressive. (Just what everyone in the NEDiv needs, you to get faster. :-)) The comparison you make above was to a stock ECU? In a 1.8 with ITA built engine? Was the comparison back to back (ie, dyno runs on same day/same conditions except for the ECU)? I know dyno results are sensitive, but I was wondering if you would be willing to post any showing the comparison you describe. Just a thought.

I am going to try to get up to NHIS at some point this season. I have family in NH so it would make a nice week combining a visit with a race or two. I'll look for you if I do. If you get down to Summit for a MARRS race, look for yellow # 5 Ita Miata.

Thanks, Bill

[IPRESS]

WOW!

More info when you can give it Mr. B.

You may have a market as more SMs come back to this side of the fence.

Great job developing.

[Andy Bettencourt]

The comparison you make above was to a stock ECU? [/b]

No. It was with a 'flashed' OBD-1 ECU. Basically the same effect as pulling fuel pressure out. Baseline numbers with stock ECU were more peaky and about 5 hp/5 ft/lbs below what you see as the '2nd' baseline above.


In a 1.8 with ITA built engine?[/b]

Yes. .020 over balanced and blueprinted bottom end. Boig header and proper port match. Kelly did my latest cylinder head, did the porting, the valve job and shaved it to grab the half point compression bump.


Was the comparison back to back (ie, dyno runs on same day/same conditions except for the ECU)? I know dyno results are sensitive, but I was wondering if you would be willing to post any showing the comparison you describe. [/b]

No stock ECU runs that day but the programmable to flashed is applicable. I am confident that you would raise the HP and TQ curves up a full 10 each from the stock box.

I am going to try to get up to NHIS at some point this season. I have family in NH so it would make a nice week combining a visit with a race or two. I'll look for you if I do. If you get down to Summit for a MARRS race, look for yellow # 5 Ita Miata.[/b]

Bring your Miata and come to Lime Rock and have your family meet you there!!!!

[cmaclean]

Very impressive! Any plans for a 1.6 solution?

[BillH]

Andy, Thanks for the additional info. The fact that your comparisons are to a flashed ECU is particularly impressive! I really will try to get to Lime Rock also this year. Bill

[Andy Bettencourt]

This solution will sell for about $2500. Ain't the cheapest but ain't the most expensive. Puts the effort and solution Chris has into persective. I love my system, and there is more to do but Chris really knocked it out of the park!

[tnord]

of course i wish it was $500, but that doesn't sound like a bad deal at all for a plug and play solution.

I think of it this way, a pro motor might net you roughly 10hp over a nice crate and cost you $6000. this will get you about the same benefit for less than 1/2 the cost. sounds good to me.

[MaxEnergy]

Chis, anything in the works for us S4 owners? May be time to make the swap to a complete s5 setup but I like the simplicity of the S4.

Jamie

[C. Ludwig]

Chis, anything in the works for us S4 owners? May be time to make the swap to a complete s5 setup but I like the simplicity of the S4.

Jamie
[/b]


An S4 unit is actually in the works. How long it will be is another question.

[Scooter]

Hey Chris, any word on this guy?

I would buy it right now if I could. (For my S5)

thanks,
James

[C. Ludwig]

What I hope will be final testing is scheduled for this Thursday. If everything works out we'll have them available for order immediately. I'll update everyone Thursday evening or sometime Friday.

[C. Ludwig]

Yesterday was pretty much a bust. We had lots of problems, most of which I created for myself. We then experienced a high RPM miss with the test car that we could not sort out. That combined with an O2 sensor that wasn't cooperating means we didn't bring home much useable data. I'm working on lining up another test. Delays, delays...

[wlfpkrcn]

Chris,

Did you ever get the ECM's up and running?

[C. Ludwig]

Yes, but we are no longer selling them. The company we were working with, DTI, is selling them at www.pocketlogger.com.