ITA and Small Bore Group, Change Needed for 2007

[Dave Patten]

Right now I believe there is a problem with combining ITA and Small Bore cars at NER events. The core issue is the “standard” of contact that each group of competitors feels is acceptable. It greatly conflicts. I as a GTL competitor in a predominantly ITA field feel I need to express what is acceptable and expected.

GTL and Production cars generally have no bumpers and light weight fiberglass bodywork that can be damaged with very minor contact. We race with all cars knowing that and we try to respect each other’s vehicles by not making willful contact with each other.

IMO, the majority of ITA drivers feel that front to rear contact is perfectly acceptable and in some cases warranted. Contact of this nature between IT cars with federally mandated 5 MPH bumpers usually results in nothing worse than scuffed paint. For my car this past weekend that type of contact resulted in a cracked fiberglass taillight panel, a trunk lid that no longer fits properly and bent body support framework on the rear of the car. This is why Small Bore competitors try to race with as little contact as possible.

Before the 2006 season started, it was announced that Small Bore (GTL & Production) would be combined with ITA. I attended the NER CRB meeting that this was discussed at and I objected, based on the differing level of accepted contact between the groups. I even requested that my class, GTL, be combined with Big Bore. My case didn’t carry enough weight to sway the decision, so we have raced together for 2006.

In my opinion, under the current differing driving philosophies this isn’t working.

From my perspective, as a driver of a more fragile car, changes need to be made for 2007 and I offer the following as solutions in my order of preference.

1. Separate Small Bore from ITA and move it back in with SRF where it has raced in the past.
2. Convince the ITA competitors that contact with a Small Bore car, irregardless of how minor will result in damage and adopt a Zero contact policy between ITA and Small Bore cars that both sides will agree to.

I came from ITC racing before I built my GT car. I was one of the drivers involved in the infamous Bruce Kapstan, Chief Steward, F-ing Ashtray speech given after a qualifying session where about every car had metal to metal contact. The following race had ZERO metal to metal contact. I know it can be done we ALL just need to work at it.

[lateapex911]

The "majority"??

I can't agree with that....I don't know that the majority of IT (A) drivers feels that the front to rear contact you describe is either "perfectly acceptable or warranted".

I CAN think of one person, who has posted videos in which he has done some "bump drafting"...but in each case, he's been on a straight, and in each case the car he's bumped is another bumpered car. But.....to state that even he feels that such contact is ok with anything other than an IT car is completel conjecture. So I can't agree with that statement.

Since you bring this subject up as the result of a specific incident, and refer to that incident, it's hard to sperate that incident from the concept.

And, that involves other issues. Even in the same class, those issues arise. Sadly, I have been in situations due to spins or justr basic boneheadedness, where I am being lapped, and the protocol in that situation is different than it is in a position battle. I think that most people getting lapped make an extra effort to steer clear, point by, or otherwise remove themselves of the race, and for two reasons.

1- Sportsmanship....I don't want to play a role in the outcome of a race, especially when it will cost me nothing to do so.
2- (and this is more pertinent, I suppose), is that when the leaders come through, they are at the ragged edge....nothing is left on the table...every nanosecond counts, and it's more likely that, when on the edge, any little bobble, on my part or theirs, will result in heartache.

So for me, while I know I have a "right" to the track, I try to get the heck outa the way..to me it's just smarter odds.

Your other post states that your contact was intentional. But was the initial contact intentional??? Your implications are that it was intentional. (".....IMO, the majority of ITA drivers feel that front to rear contact is perfectly acceptable and in some cases warranted. ....... For my car this past weekend that type of contact resulted in.....") But...what were the conditions that conspired to create it?

Close quaters during a lapping?
Was your car running well? any stumbles? (your statements indicate the contact was front of other car to rear of yours)
Was there a bobble on either parties part?

What I'm getting at here is that I don't know if I can agree with the case that the run group is inherently dangerous, when we have one incident thats being referrred to, and we don't have all the facts.

Sometimes things aren't what they appear...I've been guilty of tagging someone from behind myself, but in each case there were other influences, such as being the domino and getting it from behind myself, or the leading car stumbling on corner exit. Things happen in tight quarters, but I can't agree that the root cause of this was philosophical or intentional, without hearing more about the actual situation, and I also haven't heard of other similar events that indicate it's a trend.

Now....would Prod or GTL or ITA racers prefer to be in separate groups?? I suspect so..

[JLawton]

Dave,
I guess since you didn't get the response you were looking for in your other post, you decided to start this one.......... Not sure why you are looking to stir things up. Which is what's going to happen when, as a GT competitor you trash IT drivers on an IT site!!! :rolleyes: Nothing productive is going to come out of it.


Believe me, we did not like running with the Prod and GT cars either. There were several incidents over the season, including the one yeterday, that could have determined the outcome of the championship!!!!

And a rule to inforce no contact between GT cars and IT cars??? Last I know there wasn't supposed to be any contact, ever. And that's kind of an ironic statement considering the "incident" yesterday.

Dave, I'm with you 100% for splitting up the groups! Considering the car counts between the two classes, ITA is big enough for their own.....


- Edit -

Yes, there was too much over agressive driving in yesterday's ITA races. I don't think there was a driver there that wouldn't agree......... It also comes from the fact that there were 26 (?) ITA cars out there.

[mgyip]

While I fully understand Dave's position, I cannot agree that ITA drivers find an overwhelming desire to hit other cars with any more frequency that any other class. Like Jake, I have been known to have nose-to-tail contact in the past, some of it accidental and some of it incidental but my intent isn't to uphold the SCCA mantra of Spoiled Children Crashing Automobiles. My intent behind the wheel is to have some fun, prove to myself that I don't suck as a driver and to keep both myself and my fellow competitors safe by not making any wildly stupid manouevers.

The Washington DC Region has run SSB/SSC cars with Small Bore for the past few years. After the initial whining about "Those cars have bumpers and WILL hit our fragile Production cars" and "Those cars are on slicks and will out corner us but hold us up in the straights", they play well together. Most of the contact in that group comes from Production car to Production car.

Ideally every group would race by themselves but we know that isn't practical. Furthermore, I don't know that Small Bore would enjoy racing with Big Bore . Just b/c the cars are all Production doesn't mean that it'll be enjoyable to point the faster cars by, race with your class for half a lap and then point the faster cars by again. Not that the DC Region is the be-all, end-all but Big Bore and Small Bore are separated to maintain safety and to allow both groups to have a full-length (or thereabouts) race.

[ulfelder]

I believe Dave has a good point, and I'm a bit surprised at the hostility directed his way. There is an alternative to banging somebody with your bumper: LIFT.

You will not like it.

It will slow you down.

It may cost you a position.

It may even cost you a points championship.

I have heard more than one respected NER ITA driver talk recently as if lifting to avoid tapping someone was not an alternative.

It is.

I'm not condemning everybody who's ever used the chrome horn. But when a class accepts bumper-tag as a standard practice (SM in the past couple years, ITA this year), we tend to see a rise in other, more serious incidents in that class. I don't believe that's a coincidence.

Steve U
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS

[stevel]

Keep in mind all of my opinions are from an observer's standpoint, but having crewed strictly for cars competing in ITA for the last 4 years in this region I've kept quite a keen eye. Prior to this year with all the weight changes the cars battling for first were usually the same 3, sometimes only 2 battling closely for the top spot. Just from the past I noticed a lot of contact up front in the ITA races but since there were only a couple top guys a couple seconds ahead of the rest of the pack it wasn't such an issue and maybe not much of an actual "race" ensued and the rest of the field, was, for the most part pretty incident free. The field was also pretty spread out so that helped keep incidents low. Now with more equality, and coincidentally I think more talent and better developed cars, the battle for first stretches now among 5 and sometimes to 7 or 8 cars all within a second as far as times go. And add to that this is spread among 5 different types of cars so there on-track capabilites differ depending where on the track they are. I think that is the big change. Now throw a different class that qualifies in the top 10 of this field with even more varied capabilites in car and driver and it can make it tough.

I think if this was 3 years ago, none of these issues would have come up, but with the ITA field being more competitive, car counts going up, the # of different cars competing and how much the times are falling in light of all of this, it makes for some additional "love taps" that you didn't see just a few years ago. So, I don't think it's ITA drivers just being more aggressive than any other class, but in the NER at least the battle for the top 5 spots in ITA can be any one of 7-8 guys with just as many different cars. That's gonna make for some tight racing and unfortunately topics like this coming up. So, another region may not see any of these problems at all as the landscape of cars can change quite a bit from region to region. I think ITA in the NER is probably one of the most competitive in the country, lots of really fast cars and drivers to match.

Not much of a solution for either side, but just my humble opinion as to why you're seeing this.

Hopefully it can be worked out amicably.

steve

[JLawton]

I believe Dave has a good point, and I'm a bit surprised at the hostility directed his way. There is an alternative to banging somebody with your bumper: LIFT.

You will not like it.

It will slow you down.

It may cost you a position.

It may even cost you a points championship.

I have heard more than one respected NER ITA driver talk recently as if lifting to avoid tapping someone was not an alternative.

It is.

I'm not condemning everybody who's ever used the chrome horn. But when a class accepts bumper-tag as a standard practice (SM in the past couple years, ITA this year), we tend to see a rise in other, more serious incidents in that class. I don't believe that's a coincidence.

Steve U
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS
[/b]

Steve,
In no way am I saying bumper tapping is OK. I don't hink anyone on this topic or the other have said it's OK. I wasn't even saying that ITA isn't aggressive. Remember, I was taken out at the start of a race with heavy damage, due to aggressive driving this year.

What I am saying is, I think Dave is trying to make his point about the "incident" yesterday by starting a topic about over-aggressive ITA drivers. And we all know there is much more to this story than a few bumper taps........

Steve L,
Good points!!

[lateapex911]

Steve, agreed, but I hope my post didn't come off as hostile.

My point was that there can be several reasons for contact that aren't optional to the following driver. You come off a corner aggresively, as you always do, and the car in front stumbles, or misses a shift and boom...you're in the back of him. Or going in a corner he brakes sooner than you'd expect, boom..again, a tap.

Neither are intentional.....

When Dave stated that he intentionally initiated contact, I would have to assume he did so as a pay back, but I haven't heard any evidence yet that the hit(s?) on his bumper were intentional. But it sounds as though Dave assumed they were, due to his core feeling that the IT drivers, as a rule, drive in such a manner.

So, I'm just trying to understand how and if the facts back up the conclusion.

[ulfelder]

Jeff and Jake, your points are noted and respected.

Jake, I should have been more specific. As you say, there are many possible causes for bumper-to-bumper contact. I was talking only about one driver intentionally giving another a shot. It is indeed a different matter when the front car misses a shift, etc. And we've all been in accordions on Lap 1, they are an Act of God :D .

Jeff, I can't read Dave's intentions in launching the thread. Maybe you're right.

Let me put a little forward spin on this thread. Are there any IT drivers willing to defend the intentional bumper tap? If so, when and why do you do it? What's the etiquette? Most curious.

Remember, I'm not talking about accidental contact. I'm talking about situations in which you consciously opt to nerf a guy rather than breathe the throttle.

Steve

[lateapex911]

.

Let me put a little forward spin on this thread. Are there any IT drivers willing to defend the intentional bumper tap? If so, when and why do you do it? What's the etiquette? Most curious.

Remember, I'm not talking about accidental contact. I'm talking about situations in which you consciously opt to nerf a guy rather than breathe the throttle.

Steve
[/b]

Yes....

..........When I know the guy,
..........and I know his car can handle the tap.
..........and we're not in a corner and the tap won't upset the balance of the car...
..........and the kind of tap I'm talking about is when the speed differential is low...like a mph or 2.

Never with a GT car, or a Prod car, and really, since I don't know the drivers in other groups/classes, really no other car.

And...if I know the guy ahead of me is "funny" about stuff like that, then no.

Once, in the NARRC Runoffs I was in a 3 way battle for 3rd, I think, with Ray Lee Chee and Dave Canavan....(or was it Pete Smith?) in a 240 SX. I got a good shot on the penultimate lap on the 240SX out of the esses, and was sure I was going to nose into his rear bumper. He was going straight, so I kept it flat. Of course, the 240SX torque kicked in and he motored away, and had a 15 foot advantage by the time we hit the uphill..

I raced with Jake Fisher in his MR2 once at NHIS...I had a blown apex seal, but we were having a very long and close battle. It was fun. I eased into him once, then the next lap I saw him waving at me in the same spot. But I lifted, thinking he might be ticked from the last lap. After the race he came up to me all smiling and congratulatory on my eventual pass on him, and I asked him about the waving. He said he was trying to encourage me to hit him again...but harder!

With the torque moster the 12A rotary is, it's not a decision I need to make often...;)


So, my take is a very qualified yes, under a very specific set of conditions, and at a speed differential that is well under what the cars bumper was designed for.

That said, it is pretty clear that any physical contact is forbidden in the GCR.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I will agree and disagree with Dave. While it may APPEAR that this type of contact is acceptable, it isn't as a general rule. Insert your own justification for why it may be in rare instances.

Where I do agree is that the philosophies are different. We as IT drivers do need to be sensitive to the types of cars we are running with and against. I think a little more conscientious thought from both categories could go a long way. Leaving more room that usual and making a big effort to point faster cars by could make the run groups work in harmony. I know I am guilty of not fully understanding the implications of contact that would be 100% harmless in IT - now applied to a GTL car. Not in an intentional manner mind you, in an incidental manner.

The point about the closeness of the racing and the competitiveness of the 25-30 cars now populating ITA in NER needs to be weighted as well by OTHER classes running in the group. I don't want to make it seem like the IT guys need to do all the learning here...liken this situation to a National class with 4-5 cars within a half second, all coming through lapped traffic - with a Regional Championship on the line...

I would be happy to work with Dave on support for a proposal for new groups in 2007 or a 'co-educational' meeting or program to help drivers understand each others issues.

AB

[Dave Patten]

Andy, Thank you.

Something needs to give in this group. It scares the hell out of me to ride around the track under full course yellow watching the safety crew cut the roof off a fellow competitor's car to extract him on a back board. My biggest fear is if we don't get his under control now, it will become a more common occurance.

You have my support.

[Eagle7]

That said, it is pretty clear that any physical contact is forbidden in the GCR.
[/b]
And in my neck of the woods might get you tossed from the race.

I'm starting to get the idea that some who are real sticklers for prep rules might not be quite so rigorous about following the on-track rules.

I've got some relatives that are (were) big Dale Earnhart fans. I remember him putting Terry Labonte into the wall on T4 final lap (Bristol?), and just shake my head and say if you can't pass someone without laying a bumper on them you aren't the driver you think you are.

[StephF]

I've got some relatives that are (were) big Dale Earnhart fans. I remember him putting Terry Labonte into the wall on T4 final lap (Bristol?), and just shake my head and say if you can't pass someone without laying a bumper on them you aren't the driver you think you are.
[/b]

Amen Brother!!!!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Let's remember to seperate INTENTIONAL contact for the purpose of moving up the results sheet with INCIDENTAL contact happening for unintended reasons.

NOBODY is condoning intentional contact at the expense of another driver.

[Eagle7]

NOBODY is condoning intentional contact at the expense of another driver.
[/b]
That's a pretty broad statement. How do you know?

[Andy Bettencourt]

That's a pretty broad statement. How do you know? [/b]

I was speaking in reference to this thread. I don't see it written anywhere but I could have missed it. Who said that?

[gprodracer]

People,

Having driven IT for years, and now in my 2nd year of Prod. Contact is still CONTACT. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, it is still an issue of car control, and situational awareness. I can't cast stones, as I have "bumped" someone who has hit me, and I have "bump drafted" to go faster. Running in Prod now (with all the fiberglass parts) has made me allow a little extra room for error, as the consequences can cost more (in bodywork) for both drivers than in IT. We all can learn something from what we have read here, especially with both drivers posts, after having time to re-consider what happened. What we do is dangerous by its very nature. Please let's not forget that. Championships, even on our level, are extremely hard fought, and are hard to get. Let's just not forget that we are also just racing for a trophy.
Dave and Andy, props to you both for being men, and (after reflection) learning from this experience.
Lets hope we all gained something from this.
I know I did...........
Mark

[Eagle7]

I was speaking in reference to this thread. I don't see it written anywhere but I could have missed it. Who said that?
[/b]
Not defending it - just the opposite, but suggesting that it's being done.


I have heard more than one respected NER ITA driver talk recently as if lifting to avoid tapping someone was not an alternative.

It is.
[/b]
Andy, I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I'm not suggesting anything about you, but you're not the only guy out there. I've just seen way too many cars wrecked recently because some idiot got over-aggressive. And it seems like the closer you get to the pointy end of the grid the more idiot moves you see. Last week it was the top three ITA cars in the CenDiv in one avoidable incident. And I REALLY don't like cutting quarter panels off my car for a winter project - BTDT.

[dickita15]

Just a procedural note as to groupings in NER. Last year for the first time Narrc agreed to have the same race groups at all regionals at LRP, NHIS and Poccono and these groups were based on historical car counts. ITA was up this year and I think SM and SSM were down so certainly this can be looked at again but it has to be done soon. The next Narrc meeting is early December and if it is not resolved by then the reserved numbers can not be set.

[ulfelder]

Let's remember to seperate INTENTIONAL contact for the purpose of moving up the results sheet with INCIDENTAL contact happening for unintended reasons.

NOBODY is condoning intentional contact at the expense of another driver.
[/b]

Andy, maybe I need to get even more specific. Everyone agrees that intentionally spinning out your competitor is dirty. In this thread, I am talking about intentionally hitting another driver's rear bumper on a straightaway, when there is almost zero chance of causing that car to spin. Fair enough?

I'm looking for folks to tell me when and why they do this. So far, only Jake has done so, and he explained his reasoning well.

Also, when you write INCIDENTAL contact happening for unintended reasons, it seems to me you are conflating two things. Incidental is not the same thing as accidental. I've declared that we're not talking about accidental contact. Do you believe incidental contact is OK? If so, can you explain what you mean by incidental?

I believe there are 3 reasons drivers do this.

1. Speed preservation. This is at least defensible, although it raises the question, "Preserve your speed for what? For the next corner, where you'll need to slow down for the car ahead of you again?"

2. Frustration.

3. An attempt to intimidate the driver ahead, or, if you prefer a less loaded term, to send a message: I am faster than you in the corners and I want you out of my way.

Steve

[Tkczecheredflag]

On a lighter note - Has anyone considered combining SSM, SM, and ITA, call it "Spec/IT Cowboy" and let us "thin the herd" in the wild west?????? :bash_1_:

I continue to have my share of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. No mechanical failures but plenty of body work this year. Would like to say it's been my fault but I can't. Now I have the "make it pretty by next annual tech" note in my log book. I told Scott that the body work were "badges of honor", not dents - he didn't buy it.

If we do not use some control and restraint on metal to metal, we run the risk of F&C taking a more active roll in "playing police" during the sessions. Is that what we are looking for????

[JLawton]

In this thread, I am talking about intentionally hitting another driver's rear bumper on a straightaway,

Welllllll, as we were lining up on the track behind the pace car, I did roll up and tape Hunter at about 2 mph!! It got his attention. (you should have seen his head snap up to look in the mirror. I wish I had it on video!!) It took him out of his game and I got by him on the start!! Does that count?? :lol:



On a lighter note - Has anyone considered combining SSM, SM, and ITA, call it "Spec/IT Cowboy" and let us "thin the herd" in the wild west?????? :bash_1_:

[/b]

:lol:

Tim, you certainly get the hard luck award!! Although...........I don't recall seeing anyone around you when you went off in 6!! :lol:

[7racing]

In no way am I saying bumper tapping is OK. I don't hink anyone on this topic or the other have said it's OK. I wasn't even saying that ITA isn't aggressive. Remember, I was taken out at the start of a race with heavy damage, due to aggressive driving this year.

What I am saying is, I think Dave is trying to make his point about the "incident" yesterday by starting a topic about over-aggressive ITA drivers. And we all know there is much more to this story than a few bumper taps........

[/b]

Not sure what side of the fence I am on in regards to splitting the groups, but I do see a lot of posts saying that no one thinks nose to tail contact is acceptable. It reminds me of this post from a few weeks ago: http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=8585 (http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8585)

In no way am I trying to single out the owner of the video and I'm not trying to prove anything. But in this thread we are defending IT drivers as a respectable bunch that don't necessarily like to contact each other, but in the other thread we are all gloating like schoolchildren about the first lap video (including a comment by someone saying "Great bumber drafting").

So what side are we all on?

I do not necessarily think that a "bump draft" and/or nose to tail contact is unacceptable (within IT/SS/SM type cars). It is also not something I do all the time. In SM, I got a run down the front straight at NHIS on two other SM that were side by side. I found the faster of the two (and the driver I knew) and kept my foot planted. I hit him as I didn't want to lift and slow down, and also to help push him past the other car for both of us. Just my example and there are plenty of examples from everyone with similar results. Some people will lift to avoid it, others try to keep their momentum going and don't lift.

Jeremy

[MMiskoe]

I'm looking for folks to tell me when and why they do this. So far, only Jake has done so, and he explained his reasoning well[/b]

Steve:

I figured I better answer considering I pushed you from 6 to 9 once. Why? I didn't realize we were in contact since I never felt a bump. Would I have lifted? Probably not since as others have said, at very low realtive speeds the threat of damage is very small. If I had thought it would cause problems more than a scratch on the bumper, then yes. So far, and I hope it stays this way, I don't beleive I have ever made contact w/ someone that caused them to lose position.

I've been hit in the rear before - I missed a shift and figured "yep I deserve that", another time on a long straight and after the surprise went away I thought "great, push harder so I can pass this guy".

Twice I have done it to others - once in tech line, does that count? The other time was when I thought the person was trying to let me by but we were under caution and I knew the guy pretty well considering it was my father driving.

I did hear an intersting comment in the ITS/ITB impound this weekend. A guy in a borrowed car said "man you guys really race to the edge, if there isn't room, you make room" I think he said his past experience was in sports 2000's. I didn't get to ask if he was offended or simply surprised. I would say that it was an indication of the fact that IT does seem to race closer than some other classes and that leads to more potential contact. If people are not comfortable with this, they need to speak up as Dave has done.

Matt

[Greg Amy]

It reminds me of this post from a few weeks ago...[/b]

(...as everyone listened to the chirping of the crickets...)

I've been reading this thread but intentionally staying out of it. To be honest, I think this video is most certainly worth watching and discussing; I consider it worthy of a case study of the topic at hand. Feel free to discuss and debate without any hard feelings from me. Honestly.

I have some thoughts on this video and its relation to this topic, but I wish to refrain in order to not cloud other peoples' thoughts. I'll have more to say later.

Discuss.

Do I get royalties...?

[lateapex911]

Well, Greg, since you brought it up.....;)

One of the issues here IS mindset, and mindset DOES stem from background. Imagine a guy who has some bucks, and has graduated from the PCA driver ed program. He buys a top notch IT car, and qualifies it well. Gulp...at the first turn, he's eyes are pretty wide!!

We are hearing comments from GT drivers and S2000 drivers, and both are commenting on the closeness that has led to contact. For them, it's not good.

But we've also been led to a video (which Jeremy points out we 'approved of") that shows some definate contact by Greg Amy at the Glen.

I'd submit that it's a case of background here as well. Some of you know that Greg cut his teeth in SS back in the 90s, and aggressive bump drafting was the norm...the modus operandi. Thats his background, it was expected of him then, and he carries it to this day. He's probably saying, "What are these guys talking about??"...just a little bump. ;)

I'm sure we all think our take on it is the best. Honestly, I wouldn't have done the bump on the backstraight that Greg did. I didn't know the guy, and it was stout. (heck, with my measly power I couldn't) !And yes, it's against the rules. I think even Greg might think about it more now, maybe not.

But the points here are good ones....playing nice means understanding what "Playing nice" means to the other guy.


There are flipsides to it as well. I was tagged going into 6 at NHIS by a fellow RX7, and it took some quick steering to maintain speed and get back to the apex....but it was fun. At the time I rolled my eyes and thought, "Nice move there John Doe". Later I heard the Stewards called him up and slapped his knuckles for it. hee hee...physcological advantage: me...I can now be pretty firm with closing the door on him when I'm fairly ahead, because I know he's not going to want to repeat it.

What goes around comes around.

[ulfelder]

Sheesh, Matt, I wish you hadn't apologized - I fear everyone's now viewing me as a pansy who can't take a little rubbin'. Not true, and if you don't believe me ask Ben Phillips, Mike Carr, Wes Saunders, Mark Gregory, Tim Estes, Dave Maynard, or any of the other drivers I've raced close and hard over the past several seasons. I've left a little green paint on all those guys - but I've never rammed any of them in the bumper on purpose, even when I had a run on them.

My position is clear (and so I'll shut up now): I think bumper-tag as defined (intentional, a conscious choice to hit rather than lift) has no place in Club Racing. I've invited others to explain their views, and several guys have done so. And many of their arguments I find reasonable, if not entirely persuasive.

Steve

[Tkczecheredflag]

Tim, you certainly get the hard luck award!! Although...........I don't recall seeing anyone around you when you went off in 6!! :lol:
[/b]

Jeff - No, please let ME pass the salt. :D

[Jake]

I think we need a poll or something about bumpdrafting. Here's my take: I would have NO problem with anyone doing it to me. I often have wanted to do it to preserve momentum - but have NEVER done it because I couldn't be sure that the bumpee would be ok with it.

[Knestis]

It's my culture, too but I'm WAY more OK with nose-to-tail snubbing than with side-to-side rubbing. The latter makes our cars uglier which I think is an issue.

The first car I ever bumped bumpers with was driven by a guy whose line was so gawdawful, I was catching him accelerating off of the apex with a lower-power car. I pushed him out of the corner a few times before he got all twitchy and threw it away turning in evern EARLIER.

My second hitting session was with the same guy in the next race we ran. I went to the dude who owned the car and asked if they were having problems with the engine or gearbox or something, since I was getting into him in a very unexpected place. He smiled but Driver X was always PO'd about it. He went on to do Grand Am, among other things...

That was about it for "Racing Career I."

Since I got back into it 3 seasons ago, I have absolutely noticed that there's more "let's get physical" out there. I've been hit in the back bumper hard enough to damage the cover twice - both times by BMWs, once under FCY, and the other before the checker. The second one speared me with his 6" tow hook. Riiight - no explanation necessary there, Dumbasses.

I've been pushed out of corners myself but only by faster cars that I somehow ended up in front of in qualifying or start messiness. No harm, no foul and I got a better run as a result, methinks.

I had a wild-eyed loonie clout me in the backside UNDER BRAKING - that's a cheap shot in my book - several times, before he clobered a stationary SRF and sent the poor guy to the hospital. I recorded that one for posterity and the stewards, when they asked me to help encourage him to go play somewhere else. A Special Case.

I boinked the CRX that I was racing at VIR this year, when I finally FOUND his damn rear bumper. Boy, those cars are short. Problem was, all it did was give him some of my energy so he could get away from me on the run up through the Esses. Lesson learned there.

I pushed Giles up the straight out of Oak Tree once last season, just because I could. He didn't kick my ass, even though he could.

Bowie clouted the new Golf in the back bumper 2 laps from the end of the CMP ECR this spring, just because HE could. I'd just lifted to upshift so the hit was a little harder than I expected but still, no problemo.

Finally, I poked my RF into the LR of a badly-driven Miata in the tiny chute into the Carousel at the Summit 12, right at the end of the night. I was PO'd at the whole species, took it out on one lost guy, and admitted publicly that I felt bad about it afterward.

That's it - one case study in bumpage. What's to be learned? That correctness is influenced by context.

** If someone hits me because they aren't completely in control, they are a dumbass.

** If someone hits me in a place where it's likely to cause ME to not be in control, they are just an ass.

** If someone hits me in the bumper, with little enough closing speed that there's no damage, AND at a place on the track that doesn't upset the car, then I'm OK with it. I might even benefit, if the timing is right.

** All of the same rules apply if I am the hitter.

K

[Eagle7]

** If someone hits me in the bumper, with little enough closing speed that there's no damage, AND at a place on the track that doesn't upset the car, then I'm OK with it. I might even benefit, if the timing is right.

** All of the same rules apply if I am the hitter.
[/b]
OK, here's what I don't get. As a self-proclaimed rules nerd, why are the on-track rules less important to you than the car prep rules? You wouldn't do it unless you thought it was a competitive advantage. So now I've got to do it just to keep up? So the whole grid starts bump drafting wherever they can, and we end up with more torn-up cars.

[gran racing]

I’ve been giving the whole “bumping” some thought over the past several months. I know in the GCR it states no contact is allowed, but what is really acceptable? (This is coming from a guy whose wife got pulled over in Oregon a couple of weeks ago, was told he wasn’t going to give us a ticket, and I ask the officer “so what is the tolerance for speeding around here?” My wife didn’t seem to like that question.) I’m a bit torn about the whole thing.

Thinking back to one of my first races…I just finished all of the hard work on my car and it had a fresh paint job. I see a quicker car coming up from behind me, stay on the line and point him by to the right. Nope, instead he decides to give me a pretty big bump on the rear which was totally avoidable and in actuality cost him some time. I have to say that really pissed me off, especially from the mindset of a novice. Maybe the driver was just trying to intimidate me? At that point in my career, it worked. Now? Absolutely not. I guess road rage carries over to the track, not that I’m saying it’s right. Basically, I’ll race you as you race me.

Going down to GA for the ARRC last year, I began to wonder a bit more about bump drafting. Funny enough, a show aired that went into depth about the effects of bump drafting and showed the advantages both drivers can gain. It also discussed the dangers of bump drafting. It was NASCAR based, but that really didn’t matter much. I then started thinking about that long straight at Road Atlanta and if guys in front of me are doing it, I almost “need” to in order to keep up. I decided not to take part in the bump drafting exercise.

As many others have said, I’d give a friend a little bump out on the track only on a straight and nothing too hard. This thread has me thinking more about this though. My friend and I are cool with this and just having fun. If we’re bump drafting, we’re even working together to reduce our lap times. (That was an excellent point about this being used as an illegal advantage.) What we, myself included, need to remember is what is going on outside our little friendly bubble. Others are watching, be it fellow racers, stewards, fans, and prospective racers. People close to things realize that Dave might be bumping Jake, but they’re actually good friends. Really, it’s no big deal, right?

Greg, since you’re cool with this being discussed, I’ll admit you’re video et al has me doing some thinking. There were a few times I personally wouldn’t have done the bumping. Especially after hearing all the positive talk about the lap, I couldn’t help but wonder if I’m not being aggressive enough. I don’t think this is the case, but does have me wondering a bit.

[benspeed]

One of the best things about IT racing is that it's about as competetitive racing you can get at the amatuer level. That's why I chose ITS when I started six seasons ago. I've had many bumps over the years (I could put a long list of names - heck, Greg Amy and I swapped paint in ITS about three years ago at NHIS. Not sure how many times I tapped Steve U but I did have green paint on my car a few times) I can say that I have never bumped anybody to gain advantage, but I have bumped some folks to let them know I was there and I will admit that was lacking in judgement. They KNOW you're there and don't need to be told. Work harder to get around them clean.

The best bump drafting was with Jeff Harding at Pocono this year. He and I were in a very tight battle for third and he gave me bumps down the back straight three laps in a row and gave me a HUGE bump draft on the front straight that pushed my car up over 145 - maybe 150 mph. I made sure I adjusted my brake point after that one. (The starter made major black flag pointing motions at both of us after that and we stopped.) Nice thing was by working together we were running down the 2nd place car noticeably.

The difference here was that I waived to Jeff to bump me (I think he thought I was providing a not so friendly gesture at first, but then came up and gave a solid boost for both our speed.) Never did I feel unsafe as we were both on the straights and we both know and respect our driving and know each others cars. However, if either of us lost control and were hurt - that would make either of us feel like major assholes. After thinking about that race (and the bastard beat me at the line for third!) I figured I'd not do the bump drafting again. We are not pro racing and the risks are high when making contact over 100 mph.

I don't think anybody in ITS would consider me a "gentle driver". I think in my second year they named me Banzai Ben for bombing in on guys at turn three at NHIS - I wasn't too sure I liked that moniker so I started giving some room and guess what? It never hurt my finishing position. I just drove a little smarter (not all might agree :rolleyes:) and picked where/how to pass more carefully.

I also think as a leader of a race you must give respect to the lap cars. They must do the same but ya know? These guys are driving as hard as you and might not see you, have as much experience and might be locked in a major battle for 15th. Cut some slack to these guys! Protect your line and pick the right spot to pass - don't chrome horn the guy out of the way - that just sucks. I thought the person who made the comment about Earnhardt Sr. (my favorite Nascar star still) was dead on. You are not a quality driver putting the bumper to somebody for the position - you're just greedy for the spot. Anybody see JR hammer Edwards out of the way a couple weeks ago? Low brow stuff and the fans booed his ass good.

We piss away way to much $$ to be beating our cars up the way we do. Heck - one of the reasons I went SPO is so I can drive a tank for safety B)

[Butch Kummer]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but be advised that the first car to take the checker in the Spec Miata race at Nashville a couple of weeks ago was disqualified for (repeatedly) bump-drafting. Granted you can see the entire track from the control tower at Nashville so EVERYONE was witness to his actions and the stewards didn't need to deliberate very long. The GCR says no contact and SEDIV has been pretty adamant about enforcing that this year.

Not saying you can't bump-draft if you want to, but many/most of those same stewards will be working the ARRC.

Butch Kummer
ARRC Chairman

[lateapex911]

I seem to remember that call being made in ARRCs gone by, in ITB, I think.

[zchris]

Well I will also take a crack at this topic. I run both GT2 and Spec Miata. In SM there is clearly a large number of guys driving way over there head and hitting several cars per event. When you have usable bumpers you are less likely to take care to develop good close proximity driving skills. Not true in any of the GT classes where bumpers are for apperance only. This is a battle we have in GT nationals with the AS class that are run with us. Lets see, a 3200lb lead sled against my 2000lb Fiberglass replica. Only an idiot would class these together. Not all that different than the situation that exists with ITA and GTL. Again large wieght disparity and steel bumpers vs Fiberglass. Again only an idiot or someone that has no clue about race cars would put these classes together. And to anyone about to jump on me for saying this, my 10 year old could figure this out. What would do more than anything would be to require all IT cars to run without the steel or Aluminum reinforcement bars. I gaurantee the IT drivers would learn how to stop hitting each other quickly. This will never happen as the IT guys will never stop using each other as berms to get through the corners on another stupid late braking manuever. The IT races are almost always the most entertaining to watch for those really dumb moves that destroy cars. Alot of you guys think its cool and boy does that guy have guts for that risky move. This is just a game we adults play. No one is paying us for this game we play. When Charlie makes a stupid move and causes a 5 car chain reaction, he is only causing financial hardship for others. I mean its great entertainment for me, but I think there are to many guys each weekend that have to go home and explain to there wives why they can only put 50 bucks into juniors college fund this month. Well I'll get off my soapbox now.
Chris Howard

[mlytle]

i am in the "no tolerance" camp. metal to metal ain't cool, no matter what end or side of the car it is. this is not pro racing. there should be ZERO intentional contact between cars.

i'll extend this to a comment that there should be no "threats of contact" either. by that i mean intimidating your way into a position by taking advantage of someone else's contact avoidance move. i'll refer to "the video". in repeated cases, the driver makes little jinking moves left or right...and keeps doing it until the cars around him move over enough to give him a hole. only way that hole is created is from the other drivers moving over a little to avoid getting hit on the side. good driving didn't get the driver ahead, threats of side to side contact against others and slamming into bumpers did. poor sportsmanship, not acceptable.

[biovic]

Aside from unintentional bumps from cars in front braking too hard, mis-shifting, or missing acceleration at the apex, I've done it a couple times and had it happen to me a few times (generally in slower corners), I say NO bumping on purpose (and we should TRY hard NOT to bump), and NO bump drafting. I've never bump drafted, and I can't remember anyone ever doing that to me. On straights I always stay a few inches from the rear bumper of the car ahead, even if i know I can go faster (but know I don't have enough to make a pass). Accelerating through corners, especially Turn 3 at NHIS, I know it's hard sometimes for us to lift. I typically get better runs than say Brandon Bogart ;-) (but never hit him, always lift a little). Yes, it's very frustrating, but in my view, no metal contact also involves the plastic bumpers.


Victor
back in 07 with another ITA Integra

and yes, my back is feeling very god, thanks. :)

[Knestis]

OK, here's what I don't get. As a self-proclaimed rules nerd, why are the on-track rules less important to you than the car prep rules? ...
[/b]

See? You should have come to my NERD retirement party. All the cool people were there, and we had one of those bouncy castles - and a pony ride. :)

K

[Eagle7]

See? You should have come to my NERD retirement party. All the cool people were there, and we had one of those bouncy castles - and a pony ride. :)

K
[/b]
Yeah, I was thinking about your retirement party when I wrote it, but IIRC you were also describing your pre-retirement perspective.

I don't remember getting the invite for the party, so I guess I'm just not cool. Darn, I like ponies, too. But you guys did keep me up most of the night with all the racket you were making. :P

[Chipper1]

In 6 years in ITA I have never bumped either on purpose or by mistake. I think incidental bumping is often avoidable if the individual is willing to give up the competitive advantage gained from maintaining zero margin for error.

I've been bumped a few times and each time in discussions with the bump-er there was no harm intended. But I think to the uninitiated the message it sends is "get out of my way" and that the faster car shouldn't even be bothered to make an effort to pass.

What troubles me the most is the difference between what the GCR says and the reality of IT/SM/SS racing. Like other areas of compliance, the CRB needs to either crack down on the behavior or change the rules.

BTW when Greg hit me at WGI the first time was largely because I hit my rev limiter coming out of 1 and when going into the bus stop there was an accordion effect up front caused by the number of ITB and fast wet qualifiers going abnormally slow.

Chip VanSlyke
94 ITA Integra, slightly bent

[Andy Bettencourt]

What troubles me the most is the difference between what the GCR says and the reality of IT/SM/SS racing. Like other areas of compliance, the CRB needs to either crack down on the behavior or change the rules. [/b]

Like illegal cars, this is where we have to police ourselves. Dave did by protesting me for rough driving and I was reprimanded. Seems like the system worked per the GCR in that respect, no? This is Club Racing and we will probably never have the Sanctioning body hand down penalties in a proactive fashion like SWC or GAC - and that is the way it should be because we don't have the advantage of multiple camera angles to place appropriate blame.

[RKramden]

Here is a view from "outside" on the reputations drivers have.



Like illegal cars, this is where we have to police ourselves. Dave did by protesting me for rough driving and I was reprimanded. Seems like the system worked per the GCR in that respect, no? This is Club Racing and we will probably never have the Sanctioning body hand down penalties in a proactive fashion like SWC or GAC - and that is the way it should be because we don't have the advantage of multiple camera angles to place appropriate blame.
[/b]

Sometimes historical perspective is a wonderful thing.

15 years ago, the Rabbit (ne Golf) Cup drivers had a reputation for viewing racing as a contact sport. It was deserved. A rule of a $500 no fault per contact fine put a very fast end to that. (And back then, that was 2 sets of tires!)

For a number of years, the Spec Racers in the Northeast had that reputation as well. Racing for them was a contact sport. The prod guys who ran with SR bitched back them, too. It still is today to some extent, but much less than when it was Sports Renault.

Today, the IT guys (and gals) must all own body shops. Or so it seems based on the amount of bent up cars. One of the things that tech did this last weekend was to write up everyone in impound for the "no body damage / neat and clean" rule because the IT cars had started to look like a demo derby class. The chief steward felt it nessesary to comment about the amount of metal to metal in the mandatory drivers meeting for the IT cars.

(And, SM/SSM is quickly gaining the same reputation, BTW.)

So, what does one do?

Well, (IIRC) without a rule change, the Chief Steward could fine each party involved in any Metal to Metal $100 per hit. "Unsportsmanlike conduct, here is your fine, protest my action if you don't agree."

Also, maybe the PCA/BMW, etc. 13/13 rule has a place in cleaning up the contact.


Opinion:

I don't go to races to watch people crash. I rather see a contact free but very close race. Formula Vee at the Runoffs has just that reputation. Half a dozen good drivers in the front pack swaping positions multiple times on every lap.

On a much higher level, it may be that more and more of the drivers in IT/SM lack the respect for each other that there has traditionally been in SCCA racing. Certainly not true for everyone, but there sure seems like less than there used to be. (Of course, those who read and post here are NOT the ones I refer to. :P )

With that change in attitude, the "old time racers" like Dave and Andy are not going to see it get cleaned up by driver action.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's not a coincidence that all the classes with a part or present reputation for contact have rediculously close racing. It's not uncommon for 2 or 3 IT classes to be 'the best race of the weekend'. SRF drivers have LEARNED how to race at 10/10th's for a 20 lap race, on each others bumpers without a ton of contact.

The issue here is that the IT fields are bigger than ever (ITA has been the largest class all year), the competition is VERY close at the front and, unlike any of the other very large classes - we encounter lapped traffic inside the first 4-5 laps. SRF's run within 5 seconds of each other from front to rear while the IT classes can have as much as a 10 second spread.

The point? IT drivers have to evolve. The historical reference above shows that drivers have to evolve, plain and simple. When the racing gets tight, the cars are equal and the track is full, we enter another learning curve for the drivers.

And let's not put this 100% on the faster guys. A point-by when you are getting lapped or having trouble makes it safer for everyone. If we all understand each others intentions, we can proactively avoid contact.

[dazzlesa]

i beleive that the less contact the better.has anyone watched the runoffs? talk about lack of respect in virtually every class. i think the lappers have to be aware of the faster cars coming up on them. i can not count how many times i was not sure witch way a car was going to go as i entered a corner.

[mowog]

SCCA must run different classes together, so maybe part of the issue is how do we get everyone to co-exist in a safe and sane way? I've raced Prod and GT cars for over 20 years, and I've seen some rather bizare groupings. Some actually worked out well! Why? Because drivers RESPECTED eachother, and took the time and effort to understand and work with the differences in the classes. Is it sane and safe for small bore to run with big bore? NO, as a small bore drive I'm much prefer to run with IT, SM, SRF, or just about anyone else. But then I race a car with a minimum weight of 1460# and the height of a step stool. I do feel a bit intimidated when I'm eye level with another car's lug nuts. However I have run with them, especially on practice days, and it can work IF there's mutual respect. The Prod/GT drivers are asking for respect from the IT drivers, and can't take physical contact without costly damage. Do the Prod/GT drivers give enough respect to the close racing in the IT ranks too? My rule: if you don't have anyone in front of you that you can catch, and no one is behind you, GET THE HELL OUT OF SOMEONE ELSE'S RACE. If you, and everyone around you are truely racing for positions, then learn where each has and advantage and disadvantage, and work together. In other words, let the car that corners faster go by into the turn. And the slower car needs to learn the best place to let the faster car thru out of a turn onto the straight, then draft. Everyone will go faster, everyone will have fun, and no damage needs to be done to anyone's car. OK, lecture over.

[RKramden]

i beleive that the less contact the better.has anyone watched the runoffs? talk about lack of respect in virtually every class.[/b]

And for the last 20+ years, one of the best races at the Runoffs has been Formula Vee, with what might be argued as some of the closest racing year after year (hey, each and every car has just about the same HP), the most position changes in the top 6 cars, and the least contact.

NASCAR Modifieds: Not much contact, either, but gobs of horsepower. Quicker then the Cup cars, unless they have restrictor plates. (Like at NHIS) Any New England types want to head to Stafford to watch them at the end of the month?

Close racing, anywhere in the pack, should not require contact. Formula cars have a much higher penalty for contact, so drivers avoid it. BMW, PCA, et al have a much higher penalty (13/13), so those drivers avoid it as well. Pro races have get a fine ($$$) to discourage them.

One of the differences I see between the "Old Club" and the "New Club" is that the Old way was people brought their own cars to the track. There were almost no rentals, except in SS. (and SS had a lot more contact as well.) Cars that the driver would spend lots of time and effort on getting it ready to race. Production and GT are still like this, as is Formula car racing. When I was watching Skip Barber races, it seems they had more contact than SCCA racing, but the field is nothing but rentals.

ITA, SM, and SRF have changing levels where drivers simply rent a ride. Show up and drive, and they don't have to change the tires or put in the gas. It's not their car, they are not going to be pounding sheet metal flat (or patching fiberglass), so maybe they are willing to make moves that are risky, or with a much lower chance of being completed without contact. And maybe toss in some lack of patience as well. They paid their bucks, they want to show up, race, and go home. And that is it. Most of the drivers, fast and slow, still own their own cars, and it seems that those are the ones who, in general, have the least contact. Of course, sometimes you are simply in the wrong place and get collected, like Grant McStay was a few years ago.

I think that the contact will continue until the system has something in place that makes it painful (via some sort of penalty), but I don't think that a simple fine will do it, and they are inherently unfair. It might help, but it isn't the only answer.

As a related note, it also seems that, in general, the drivers who work on their own cars volunteer to help the club in other ways more often. Helping at Tech, Flagging when they have the chance, going to board meetings, or even being Comp Board Chair. Brian Mushnick deserves a big thank you from all the drivers in every class for what he has done for the club in the last three years. I think it is the hardest job there is in the region, and he has been very good at it.

[lateapex911]

Interesting points about working on your own car and helping out more....are there statistics on that or is it just an observation? (Not doubting it, actuallly, I agreee with it now that you've brought it up...just curious)

I'll second the Mushnick kudos. Lots of us try to give back, either via the region, or via National service, but Brians job is a big undertaking. I'd like to add that he's had some good assistance from his great wife Kristine, and when he first got stared, his unofficial "assistant", who probably prefers anomoninity. (sp?)

Overall, NER is a pretty well run machine, and it's a pleasure to race with them.

[almracing]

It has been interesting reading the posts about bump drafting, tapping, and not lifting as reasons for metal to metal contact. The problem is that it is hard to determine which contact will cause damage or an accident.

I am growing weary with putting my car back into "race presentable" shape every couple of years after a major incident. It's one thing to be putting my car back together because of a mistake I made (off road excursion, tire wall, etc), but it is frustrating to put my car back together because of someone else's mistake or misjudgement. (see Memorial Day Crash topic)

Renting was also an interesting topic that was brought up, although I think it is the opposite in terms of carelessness. Since my car has not been available this season I opted to rent a ride for a couple of weekends. But I was much more cautious during those races because it was not my option to repair the car. I was going to pay full shop rates to have dents fixed. For that reason, I drove with my fingers crossed for much of the time.

Self policing and official actions will help deter metal to metal contact. I think people would think twice if they knew that they could be just watching from the infield due to official penalties.

[RKramden]

Dave did by protesting me for rough driving and I was reprimanded.[/b]
It is my understanding that you were not unique in that regard.

[Greg Amy]

You know this street goes both ways, right?

Before selecting the link below, let me give you some background. Race situation, competitor is RIGHT ON YOUR ASS just waiting for a mistake. You're coming up on slow traffic. A year and a half ago, you came on someone else, same way. You went left; they went left. You collided, they were hip-checked into the tire wall on the right. Mucho unhappiness ensued (and still does today).

What would you have done?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm5dDQ3YspQ

Point-bys and mirror usage is a good thing...

[lateapex911]

But wait, there's more....

Post the other link, Greg!

In the first vid, yeah, that Triumph is a common sight. If it's the same one I'm thinking of, he is fairly good about getting out of the way...and he has to often. In this case, he needed to be more vigilant seeing the closing speed.It's a good thing that there was room on the inside, and the ruts weren't too deep.

In the second vid, well, LOL......what needs to be said?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Jake,

The yellow car is an Alfa. First time we have raced with him this year. As far as 'room', there was none. Greg put 4 off on the inside.

[lateapex911]

Ooops...my mistake. Sorry to the Triumph guy!

It looked like 4 off...lucky there was room...no Armco, and no holes..as in other spots at NHIS.

[Knestis]

...What would you have done? ...
[/b]

Exactly the same thing you did, Greg - only more slowly, probably.

I got put in exactly that same situation last year, ironically by an Alfa but within ITB. He bobbled badly turning up the hill out of the Esses on VIR North. I caught him like crazy at the right toward the top of the hill and was left with just a few options - jump on the brakes, shortcut the apex, or to the LONG way 'round. There were other cars right on my rear bumper and the answer seemed obvious. It only took a nanosecond to decide that I wasn't going to NOT take advantage of his error, instead of getting jumped by those cars behind me.

K

[alfa]

I hope you don't mind one of the subjects of your videos having a voice....I'm the driver of the yellow Alfa.

1. Greg, I saw you there behind me going into the bowl. I debated giving you a point-by on entry but didn't because you were too far back.

2. Greg, You were absolutely going to get a point-by on my left, which was where your first swerve took you...after we passed the rumble strips and I felt it was safe to get out of your way.

3. I am very familiar with racing with much faster cars, I race with Corvettes, Mustangs, Shelbys, etc. pretty much every race, and am very willing, in fact eager to give point-bys to everyone who shows up on my bumper - including Betttencourt, Hunter, and a number of other cars in that very race. However, you need to respect the fact that regardless of the fact that you are leading your race - you do not own the track and I have no intention of doing something that I feel is unsafe to let you by. Nissan and Miata doors and fenders may be a dime a dozen, but 50-year-old Italian steel in good shape is tough to find. If you make the decision to go by without a signal, that means that I don't think it's a safe place and we haven't communicated...so you go at risk. In fact, this weekend, I had a Mustang pass me on the right in the Bus stop at the Glen, without a signal. I held my line and he went by. His decision that it was safe, not mine. He made it safely because I held my line and he felt it was going to be OK.

4. It seems like a simple thing....if you get a point-by take it. If you don't, expect the car you are overtaking to hold their line and you must go by, at your risk, off line. In this case, that would have meant passing me on my left (on the racing surface)....Or, I guess, the agricultural route that you took.

5. My qualification position was in the teens for that race, right in the middle of a bunch of ITA cars. On the grid, I noticed that many of the non-ITA cars had voluntarily given up their grid positions and elected to start at the back of the field due to forecasted carnage in turn one. As I thought about it, I decided to do the same and let the grid clear before I joined the field. In this race, it turns out that I didn't need to move back in the field - but statistically, I think it was the right decision. When a significant number of people are doing this, is there a problem?

The person who posted about maturity is right on...some classes learn to race fast and close without running into each other...I hope you guys do. And I hope when I run production races in the future, we aren't in the same group. I will certainly look at the supps before I register.

[Ed Funk]

I'm in total agreement with Alfa. After viewing the video clip provided by Greg, you made your own choice and got to do some "farming". It's hammered into new drivers, and maybe should be reminded to old drivers, "take your normal line, so the overtaking driver knows what you're doing". I've been at both ends of that deal!! I have chosen to go agricultural to maintain momentum, my choice, not his fault! Also, I expect the other guy to give me room in the corner, regardless if I'm passee or passor, IF we enter the corner together, Alfa entered the corner ahead, it was"his" corner. I would have witnessed for Alfa if there had been an incident and/or a protest.

Of course my opinion is of little consequence because I don't race in ITA, and therefore I suck!! 18 years, approximately 160 sprint races, 4 24 hr racees, 2 12 hour races, a few wins here and there and damn few times when I caused contact probably don't count for much in the opinion category.

:cavallo: Anyway opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and most of them stink!! :happy204:

[Greg Amy]

I hope you don't mind one of the subjects of your videos having a voice....I'm the driver of the yellow Alfa.[/b]

I/we absolutely do NOT mind; it's the only way to learn. I am glad you are here and reading, and I hope I've given the impression that I do not believe I'm beyond reproach.

The T6 through T9 series is a very complex place to work traffic, for both the passer and passee. The normal line is jinking left, right, then left again, very much like a series of esses (with a blind crest thrown in for kicks). If a passer is not on the ball then pointing someone by "here" could lead to disaster "there" if they hesitate; this puts the passee in a tough situation. To make matters worse in our case, as noted I got burned passing on the left there before, which no doubt complicated my decision process.

From the time we crested the hill braking into T6 I calculated we were going to catch you under the treehouse; from the apex of the corner out I was looking to confirmation that that 1) you saw us, and 2) you had a preferred side for us to pass. In your open car your hand signals can be seen from a LONG way away with very little chance of being confused for rollcage tubes and the like, and I was hoping you would use that.

Unfortunately, I got no signal from you so I had to make a future prediction of your actions based on experience with everyone else I've raced ("Is he going to drive the line? Is he going to move left?") Since there was light to the right of you the very moment I had to commit, that choice was "go right". Fortunately, I make a point of walking all race tracks, and one of the things I look for is escape routes. I had planned for this exact contingency; I knew what I could do and this was exactly what I did.

Other than not indicating you knew we were there and which direction you preferred we pass you did exactly what you should have done, which was drive the line. I *really* wish more people would do that. If everyone did that, then everyone becomes predictable, and passers can act accordingly. The problem is that 50% of the folks will drive the line and the other two-thirds try and move out of the way. I had a 50/50 chance of making the right choice. I only hope I didn't scare the beejesus out of you like I did Andy!


...you need to respect the fact that regardless of the fact that you are leading your race - you do not own the track and I have no intention of doing something that I feel is unsafe to let you by.[/b]

Absolutely. You shouldn't. On the other hand, neither do you "own the track" and you should not feel like you have the right to keep us from passing, should we feel it's safe to do so. Our closing speeds were so high that a little notification goes a long way. If you had pointed left going through or out of the apex of T6 then I would have timed it to allow you to move right (using you as a pick to keep Andy behind me) then motored on. But this is competition: there was no way I was going to brake down to your speed and wait for you to get out of the way. Sorry if this raises the hackles of you and others, but this is competition, not HPDE.

Don't give me the "$5 wooden plaque" speech. Don't care. I do not condone or support intentional contact, but if the very idea of possible body damage gives you (collective "you") the vapors I suggest you get out of W2W competition (or get a Saturn).


Nissan and Miata doors and fenders may be a dime a dozen, but 50-year-old Italian steel in good shape is tough to find.[/b]

Au contraire: NX fenders are unobtainable. However, I don't make driving decisions based on equipment. I would have driven the same if I was in a Ferrari Enzo, it just would have made a different sound.


If you make the decision to go by without a signal, that means that I don't think it's a safe place and we haven't communicated...so you go at risk.[/b]

Au contraire, part deaux: *ALL* passes are done "at your risk" and a point-by does not eliminate that. Further, no one else is required to - or will - be held to your analysis of the situation. This is not an HPDE-type event where a point-by is required for a pass; you as the passee do not 'control the situation'. Passing attempts *will* happen whether you feel they are safe or not, you have no say over them. However, point-bys in competition are one of the tools that you have at your disposal (others include "body language" and driving lines) to minimize the potential of the conflicts. If you believe that a lack of a point-by would - or should - have stopped that pass, then hindsight illustrates that to be folly. If someone is rolling up on you like they were beamed down by the Starship Enterprise then it is absolutely their responsibility to make a safe pass, but is your responsibility to recognize the situation and minimize the conflict potential.

Notifying me a couple of seconds - one second - in advance of our meeting at the same time-space would have done that.


When a significant number of people (join the back of the field), is there a problem?[/b]

I don't see how. In fact, this past weekend at Mid-Ohio NASA made a point of gridding all cars within their class, based on the lap time of the fastest member of the class (e.g. in our case, all FP cars would grid up front, then all ITA cars, then all GP cars, etc). Don't know what I think of that, yet. - GA

[alfa]

I don't think I ever said (or wrote) that you shouldn't pass me anywhere you choose. That's what racing is all about. All I'm saying is don't post video and say "Point-bys and mirror usage is a good thing...", as if I was oblivious to your "right" to that particular part of the track. You can't assume to know what the other driver is thinking unless there is some communication and in this case, there hadn't been. You thought I didn't see you and you were wrong. You thought I wasn't going to give you a point-by and you were wrong.

If I give you a point-by, I am saying that I will take measures to make sure your pass is safe. If I don't give a point-by, you can assume I will not do so. I was prepared to keep well right going under the treehouse, and let both you and Andy pass on my left going into the lefthander - and even into the corner if need be.

I think you missed the part of my post where I mentioned that someone passed me on the right in the bus stop at the Glen this weekend. By "in the bus stop", I mean he was behind me at the 2nd curb and in front of me by the time I went over the 4th curb. I'm fine with that. He had like 600 HP and I have around 120. It was a safe pass, even though I didn't think it would have been when he started going by. However, when I talked to him after the race, his comment was to thank me for keeping my line and leaving the decision to him. The similarities are significant...he knew he would get a point-by in the next turn, he just didn't want to wait because he was leading his race and had a 911 chasing him. I doubt he would have complained if it turned out he had to hop the 4th curbing because he didn't get the pass finished early enough because I know him and he would have realized that it was his decision that caused the eventual outcome.

I don't think I stated that I had any belief that any sort of finger gesture illustrated any sort of control over you - in my mind you as the overtaking driver have 2 choices....make your pass wherever and whenever you choose, and if you make a bad choice - live with the consequences, whatever they may be; or wait for some sort of acknowlegement that I am willing to stay clear of a certain side of the track and let you have it, wherever my ordinary line may be. That's just courtesy. Racing and courtesy do not have to be mutually exclusive, no matter the level of competition.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Mike - can I call you Mike? :)

I think you guys are both on the same page. The bottom line for Greg is that he didn't KNOW you saw him and intended to point him by, even though you did. Hence the importance of the point by.

You wanted to give a point by, he wanted one, you stayed predicable and it all worked out. I was just happy to get to go by on the left!

I was the one who mentioned 'maturity'...we as IT drivers do need to mature as racing gets closer and faster. 3 cars in ITA were significantly under the chicane/chicane track record on Sunday morning...learning a little and getting better at what we do is always an option for everyone, doesn't matter how long you have been doing this.

[alfa]

sure...didn't mean to hide under any sort of anonymity. I forgot that I registered under "alfa" rather than my name. In case anyone is wondering, my name is Mike Lawton.

[Andy Bettencourt]

sure...didn't mean to hide under any sort of anonymity. I forgot that I registered under "alfa" rather than my name. In case anyone is wondering, my name is Mike Lawton. [/b]

Nobody thought that. I think you should change your screen name to "Retna-burning yellow Alfa"... :)



http://www.the16v.com/SCCA/06/nh4/images/DSC_3593.jpg

[16v]

now now, don't go throwing stones at yellow car drivers Mr Bright Orange Wheels B)

[alfa]

"I think you should change your screen name to "Retna-burning yellow Alfa"... "

I used to forget where I parked my car in the paddock. No more! You should try it.

Statistically, yellow cars have less accidents, too. At least that's what my aunt told me when I was looking for my first street car a few(?) years ago. She even claimed that they get an insurance break.

We have a yellow Mini too, but I prefer the Alfa color. It's actually the Ferrari "Giallo Modena" paint code. Everyone who has an Alfa wishes they had a Ferrari. The paint was all I could afford.

[Andy Bettencourt]

now now, don't go throwing stones at yellow car drivers Mr Bright Orange Wheels B) [/b]

Show me proof!

[16v]

Show me proof!
[/b]

http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/images/newsphotos/00nhisturn9.jpg

[RSTPerformance]

I don't get internet access often but I happened to read through this post this evening. I think that one thing that is very difficult is to be able to predict the line of the drivers that are driving at a much different pace than you are. For example in this video if I was Greg than I would have done the exact same thing he did and I actually would have been frustrated with Mike and feeling as though he felt like he owned the track and everyone else had to wait for him. I would have felt like he had no clue I was clsing in on him. If I was closing at that speed on him I would not have expected any point by at any point for the following reasons:

A: The point buy should have come at the exit of 6 before the tree in 7 because of the closing rate of speed. A point by 2 seconds before you are going to pass is NOT sufficient. If at all possible you should do it in the turn or before the turn so the overtaking driver can plan their exit line and speed out of the turn. If your in the heat of battle you certainly don't want to lift on an uphill straightaway to wait to see if your going to get a point by.

B: the Yellow Alfa left TONS of room to the Right of him at the exit of 6 and heading towards 7. TOTALLY OFF gregs normal racing line (And My line) As the overtaking car I would think that he was moving over to give me room since I really do think that that is not the fast line and more of a get out of the way line. The line the alfa took was totally unpredictable in my mind as his exit and entrance to 7 was off line leaving the racing line on his right wide open.

C: Greg was completly caught up to him directly behind him and going much fast and still no point by. A point by like you said should be where it is safe... ANY PART of the track is safe to pass on if you are both comunicating to each other. I have been around NHIS (the entire track) side by side with no contact. The point by should have come as he approached. Don't expect him to lift and wait a few seconds for you to decide that the end of the straight is a safer place to pass. Tell him in advance that your going to leave the left line open.


If you had intended the point by to be on the left and had givin him that point by AS HE APPROACHED you not when or even after he actually caught you I think he would have waited until he had room and goen to the left. If you had pointed him to the left coming out of six I personally think he would not have gone through the grass on the right and instead he would have waited for room on the left. THAT would have been a safe point by.

I think that this is the biggest misconception as backmarkers are lapped. A point by should be given as EARLY as possible and then once that point by is given you can't change your mind. So what if it is 3 turns later. Give them the plan you have so they can make there plan as the overtaker. I can't stress this enough a GOOD POINT BY is given AS the overtaking car approaches not after they catch up and wait for the point by.

I had the chance to meet you Mike and I love your car it is awesome. So please don't take offense to my comments I am just analyzing it from a different point of view. I want you to learn why and how I would have decided to do the same thing greg did. We all have our own expirences and we all have different rational for our decisions which brings up another point on why we have contact... my analization here may be completly different from someone elses... the lack of experience with eachother is a huge part of the contact in IT. afterall how many new people did you race with this year?

Just a different perspective on the video,
Stephen

One other note... Greg in my mind tried to comunicate with you by staying at least 1/2 to 3/4 car width over to your right as he followed you up the hill. In my mind that means he expects you to let him through on that side. To expect a car all they way on your right to move all the way to the left AFTER they caught you would have been interesting going ino 9!

Stephen

[RSTPerformance]

I have stayed out of this discussion for many reasons, however I will say FROM A DRIVERS standpoint I couldn't agree with Stephen and Greg more, however from my training as an SIT I will say that I have learned a lot, and many things that ALL of us do are not exactly "per GCR" and many of us have been penalized. Lets all remember to have healthy discussions with each other before/after practice/qualifying sessions as we get to know each other I think we can play well together. Certainly always feel free to file a protest, but don't be suprised if many of these issues will raise eyebrows for both drivers. I think that in every video I have sceen of friends, as an SIT, as well as mine show that multiple people could have learned something or avoided an incident.

Mark- love the car, and you seem very nice as well, I as with Stephen DO NOT have any issues with what you did. I just agree from a drivers perspective that you also could have been a bit more proactive!!! If you pointed left at the exit of turn 6 I am sure Greg would have gone left (I know I would have), and thus he probably would have been on your left (or going toward your left) at the crest of the hill, but the pass probably wouldn't have been untill the enterance of turn 9. At anyrate while I do think you could have helped a bit more you are also right and if Gregs move had caused an incident and a protest was filed he may have left the media room an unhappy person (From my SIT experience).

I have and will again be a backmarker, be it car problems, or running with faster cars, so I know what it is like to be lapped at a very high rate of speed. I have also been in the heat of a battle (for first in class) when leaders of another class come through also in the heat of a battle, and as Stephen mentioned thier is not anyplace on any track where you can not race side by side.

On the other side of the fence I have also witnessed my dad pushed of the track from faster GT1 cars who feel that they own the track... can you say Paul Newman or Amy Ruel... probably 2 of the worst offenders of "owning a track." So it happens in all the race groupes, not just IT.

ok I am talking to much, but I have to get it all out!!! If you look at Gregs video from Cheap Date this past weekend when him and Richie had contact you can see that Greg gave a point by way in advance long before the braking zone and/or the turn. He then left plenty of room. things didn't work out, but we wont get into that. The important part is that he made a distinct point by well in advance.

The most important lesson that isn't taught or stressed enough IMO is the timing of a point by. Point bys need to be in advance further than one might think. I feel that if you have someone you think will pass at the exit of a turn you should point them bye before the braking zone, look for the dive bomb, then again at the exit of the turn do the point again to ensure that they saw the point by and be sure to hold space for them even if that means you go a bit off line (a good example would be the exit of turn 6/apex of turn 7 at NHIS). If the person still doesn't pass then I do think it is safe to start over and possibly point them by on the right. if that makes sence.

good luck to all;

Raymond "I should have stayed out of this!!!" Blethen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Why are we talking about point-bys? The GCR says nothing about them. I was recently told by someone that he was "under no obligation to give me a point-by".

While I agree it's the gentlemanly and safe thing to do for all racers, some drivers could give a crap about them...so let's stop talking about them like we should be expecting them. As soon as we expect something that doesn't come, bad things happen.

[RSTPerformance]

Why are we talking about point-bys? The GCR says nothing about them. I was recently told by someone that he was "under no obligation to give me a point-by".

While I agree it's the gentlemanly and safe thing to do for all racers, some drivers could give a crap about them...so let's stop talking about them like we should be expecting them. As soon as we expect something that doesn't come, bad things happen.
[/b]


ANDY you need to reread my post ASAP. Then post a comment.


My post is all about the fact THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE EXPECTED A POINT BY in this situation. Then to be helpfull to Mike I explained why and what I think the difference it between a good point by and a bad point by. No matter if your getting a point by or not you need to be able to communicate with the other drivers around you by predicting what they are going to do. Experience with eachother helps this, point bys help this, and even the gesture of Greg staying off to the right is a form of comunication and prediction that he is going to try and pass on the right.

I do think it is relevent to this topic and to the 2 groups running together since this video clip is form the same race.

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Stephen,

I read all the posts. My point is that if the GCR says nothing about them, and some drivers don't use them, why include them in our discussion - for ANY reason?

...and I didn't mention any names in my post for a reason...and there is a big difference between bashing and bumping. Please don't use that term about me in our incident. This is a learning experience for all.

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

"As a driver" everything isn't always about the GCR, sometimes its just simple communication and understandings among fellow drivers that makes things fun...

Raymond



Stephen,

I read all the posts. My point is that if the GCR says nothing about them, and some drivers don't use them, why include them in our discussion - for ANY reason?

...and I didn't mention any names in my post for a reason...and there is a big difference between bashing and bumping. Please don't use that term about me in our incident. This is a learning experience for all.
[/b]


2nd part is fixed.

as for your first part in not talking about point bys....
WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THEM. this discussion is on why prod and IT should be seperated or left alone to share the track... In this video we see 2 completly different view points of an overtaking situation. This was a situation when contact could have happened. The prod driver was going to give a point by and the IT driver wasn't expecting one. If different people have different opinions or signals to help eachother RACE TOGETHER on the track then we should discuss them so we can all RACE TOGETHER and understand eachother.
I have to go to work but when I get back I will read your reply and I will try to understand what this thread is actually about since it msut not be about sharing the track and racing as a group without contact.

Stephen

[Andy Bettencourt]

I take it all back. I need to become more intimate with my GCR. Point-by's ARE required.

<span style="color:#231f20"><div align="left">9.1.3. Hand Signals</div>
</span>competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion.</div>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>

Also understand I am being slightly arguementative here to bring out all 2 million viewpoints.

[RSTPerformance]

Andy-

Good catch, thanks for posting...

Raymond

[Greg Amy]

...(even) if the GCR says nothing about (point-bys), and some drivers don&#39;t use them, why include them in our discussion - for ANY reason?[/b]


...point-bys in competition are one of the tools that you have at your disposal (others include "body language" and driving lines) to minimize the potential of the conflicts.[/b]

[alfa]

"The driver is required to follow the pavement or marked course during a competition, and shall not gain an advantage from an off-course excursion."

Yeah...and for anyone who has been at the Glen recently, how many passes are made on (or even to the left of) the white berm coming out of turn one???

I watched a little of the Spec Miata race and you would have thought that the track ran outside the white berm, not inside it.