Engine mods

[Chris Wire]

Alright, the endurance (taking a long time!) project is moving slowly forward. Here's the deal.

I have a motor sitting on the ground waiting for me to pay it some attention. I need the experts to fill up my list of things to do before I attempt to pop this baby into the car. Don't be bashful!

S5 engine - fresh stock rebuild
Turbo oil pump - DONE
Three window rear bearing - DONE

Besides that I'm throwing poop at the wall and hoping it will stick. What's next while it's on the ground?

Shimmed pressure reg?
Thermo pellet?
Pull the 5/6 port sleeves and plug the holes?

I already have ISC pulley, clutch, new clutch master/slave, will have injectors balanced, ISC baffled oil pan, Aeromotive FPR, and some other stuff that escapes me right now.

Any help is greatly appreciated! Especially the trick stuff!

TIA,

[rob22]

Chris- large Garrett Turbo and about 300 pounds less weight so you would at least have a chance of keeping up with the "slowed down" and SIR'd Garcia Bimmer.

"Bosco"

[Chris Wire]

Chris- large Garrett Turbo and about 300 pounds less weight so you would at least have a chance of keeping up with the "slowed down" and SIR'd Garcia Bimmer.

"Bosco"
[/b]

Well originally I was thinking about a street port out of Miami so I could chase Irish Mike down the backstretch at Sebring, then I would add about 40 lbs of birdshot into the right rear qtr panel, and ram air through the right headlamp, but someone talked me out of it!

No one wants to share.....where's the love?!!!

:(

[Chris Wire]

Okay, okay, the fog in my head is getting thicker. I need some racer tape around my head before it explodes!

There are 2 rear oil pressure regulators listed on the Mazdaspeed site with the same identical description, but yet different part numbers:

4801-14-250
4352-14-250

"Replaces the stock secondary (rear) regulator. With the use of a high capacity oil pump, the competition regulator allows oil pressure in the system to reach 105-115 psi. It is recommended to also shim the front regulator 1/8' to ensure that it does not limit system pressure."

And then they further add:

"A less expensive alternative is to use the 3rd gen regulator, N3A1-14-230 which allows 90-100 psi."

So what's the hot ticket? If I am running a turbo oil pump, do I simply run the 3rd gen regulator, or the Mazdaspeed piece? If the Mazdaspeed is the ticket, then which one?

I'm heading to the garage for some racer's tape........which color works best on exploding heads?

[seckerich]

Okay, okay, the fog in my head is getting thicker. I need some racer tape around my head before it explodes!

There are 2 rear oil pressure regulators listed on the Mazdaspeed site with the same identical description, but yet different part numbers:

4801-14-250
4352-14-250

"Replaces the stock secondary (rear) regulator. With the use of a high capacity oil pump, the competition regulator allows oil pressure in the system to reach 105-115 psi. It is recommended to also shim the front regulator 1/8' to ensure that it does not limit system pressure."

And then they further add:

"A less expensive alternative is to use the 3rd gen regulator, N3A1-14-230 which allows 90-100 psi."

So what's the hot ticket? If I am running a turbo oil pump, do I simply run the 3rd gen regulator, or the Mazdaspeed piece? If the Mazdaspeed is the ticket, then which one?

I'm heading to the garage for some racer's tape........which color works best on exploding heads?
[/b]
If you have a stock rebuild with regular apex seals the 3rd gen regulator is fine. If you go with ceramics and plan to spin it real tight then go with the comp piece. If price is the same go with the comp unit. Mazda has the old comp catalog available in pdf form now with some tips that could help you. Pull the 6 port sleeves and toss them. PM me if you want a few more suggestions.

[Eagle7]

I sincerely hope that what we're discussing here is legal, but I can't find where the GCR lets us do it. Help me out.

[GKR_17]

I'm certainly not a Mazda expert, but since you call it a "Turbo" oil pump it almost certainly isn't legal. I wonder if the same is true of the "Three window bearing" as well. Care to explain what vehicles on your spec line came with these parts?

[Andy Bettencourt]

I'm certainly not a Mazda expert, but since you call it a "Turbo" oil pump it almost certainly isn't legal. [/b]

ITCS page 5.

h. Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, oil pickups, lines, and filters are unrestricted."

[GKR_17]

ITCS page 5.

h. Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, oil pickups, lines, and filters are unrestricted."
[/b]

I agree, a different oil pickup is legal. However, he said oil pump, so as far as I see it the question still stands.

[lateapex911]

yea, if I read this right, the issue is a spring internally that determines the pressure sent out to the engine. Changing the spring results in higher oil pressure, which is better for a racing engines longevity.

It appears that such a mod fits the (oh God, here comes that word) intent of what the rulesmakers were desirous of, but it isn't specifically allowed, at least to my eye.

If I knew my competitor had one, would I protest? Uh...no.

[GKR_17]

If you have a stock rebuild with regular apex seals the 3rd gen regulator is fine. If you go with ceramics and plan to spin it real tight then go with the comp piece. If price is the same go with the comp unit. Mazda has the old comp catalog available in pdf form now with some tips that could help you. Pull the 6 port sleeves and toss them. PM me if you want a few more suggestions.
[/b]

Well, according to Steve Eckerich, oil pressure affects the apex seals. So it is clearly not just a longevity issue.

Maybe Jake should talk to Andy about reading into the 'intent' of the rules. I've been scolded on that one before.

Grafton

[steve s]

let me try and explain this as simple as can be .
because we race mazdas and this club loves mazdas we get to change oil pumps etc.
that's the short answer.
heck they even allow us to use the lightest rotating assemblies [mix & match ] then balance them to build these killer engines.
p.s. we are even allowed to use the lightest or if we wish the higher compression rotors to make more h.p.
i can go further but you get the point race a mazda and you can do pretty much anything even if it's not allowed because nobody will protest you. :P
just kidding i hope someone out there can explain better than i did.

[seckerich]

Well, according to Steve Eckerich, oil pressure affects the apex seals. So it is clearly not just a longevity issue.

Maybe Jake should talk to Andy about reading into the 'intent' of the rules. I've been scolded on that one before.

Grafton
[/b]
I have all but quit posting any on this board because some jerk will either call you a cheater, liar, or both in the same post. Oil pressure is by the 10 psi/per 1000 rpm just like most motors. If you twist one tight you need more pressure. You care to say your BMW has stock oil pressure? Won't live long will it. The regulators on mazda"s are all the same with different pressure settings. The high pressure units were in the GTU'S and are LEGAL. PS--they also put them in the turbo cars but we don't use the turbo :dead_horse: Try to get your facts straight before you call someone a cheater. I guess Chris see's why there was silence in the beginning for his information request--it has now returned.

[dspillrat]

Dang Nab-it, Now I knows why those tail lights on that Black car get smaller in the turns, tighter cheTER SPRINGS!!!....Wait ..no I mean in the straights....wait ...oil pump springs? ... Never Mind....

David

[seckerich]

Dang Nab-it, Now I knows why those tail lights on that Black car get smaller in the turns, tighter cheTER SPRINGS!!!....Wait ..no I mean in the straights....wait ...oil pump springs? ... Never Mind....

David
[/b]
Busted!! I'm having fun hanging in the Zcar forum--you guys are a lot more fun. Springs are not the only thing wound too tight here.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I agree, a different oil pickup is legal. However, he said oil pump, so as far as I see it the question still stands. [/b]

What if the pickup and the pump are one piece?

[GKR_17]

I have all but quit posting any on this board because some jerk will either call you a cheater, liar, or both in the same post. Oil pressure is by the 10 psi/per 1000 rpm just like most motors. If you twist one tight you need more pressure. You care to say your BMW has stock oil pressure? Won't live long will it. The regulators on mazda"s are all the same with different pressure settings. The high pressure units were in the GTU'S and are LEGAL. PS--they also put them in the turbo cars but we don't use the turbo. Try to get your facts straight before you call someone a cheater. I guess Chris see's why there was silence in the beginning for his information request--it has now returned.
[/b]

Steve,

Assuming you're talking to me, please read my posts again and quote where I called anyone a cheater. I openly admit that I don't know much about the rotary engine, and asked what vehicles on the spec line came with the parts in question. The first responses I got were poor excuses. Your last statement is somewhat better, but honestly not a lot. Simply put, any parts from the 3rd gen motor (or comp piece as the other option you list) aren't legal for ITS cars unless they came in the earlier models as well. If they came in the GTU, then fine. As far as our BMW, I didn't personally do the build as I have previously, but as I understand it, the oil system is completely stock except for an added guage and higher preassure light sensor.

Andy: even if the oil pickup is integrally attached to the oil pump, the pump must reamain stock in my interpretation.

Grafton

[C. Ludwig]

The regulators on mazda"s are all the same with different pressure settings. The high pressure units were in the GTU'S and are LEGAL.
[/b]

Nope. The only thing different about the S and any other 5-lug car was the 4.30 gear and the .756 OD.

Chris, back to your original question. IMO you don't need the turbo pump. Plenty of IT engines survive on the NA pump. Lots of 12A engines survive extended high revs on their much smaller pump. If you want an all out engine plan on spending the money on new rotor housings. If you plan to spin it past 7500 look at something other than ferrous metal apex seals. Either carbon or cost-no-object ceramic. It's already been mentioned but there is some great info in the back of the Mazdaspeed catalog on clearances for seals and bearings. The RB catalog also has some great info. Travel over to www.nopistons.com and check out the Engine Building forum. There are some great tips on there as well.

[Chris Wire]

Chris, back to your original question. IMO you don't need the turbo pump. Plenty of IT engines survive on the NA pump. Lots of 12A engines survive extended high revs on their much smaller pump. If you want an all out engine plan on spending the money on new rotor housings. If you plan to spin it past 7500 look at something other than ferrous metal apex seals. Either carbon or cost-no-object ceramic. It's already been mentioned but there is some great info in the back of the Mazdaspeed catalog on clearances for seals and bearings. The RB catalog also has some great info. Travel over to www.nopistons.com and check out the Engine Building forum. There are some great tips on there as well.
[/b]

Thanks, Chris. That's good to know.

I'm glad I asked these questions while the engine is still in a box. Issues like this found later would be much harder to correct. The turbo oil pump was put in buy the builder who, admittedly, does not normally do racing engine rebuilds. I guess it is common on the street cars, I don't know.

Thanks to all who replied, I appreciate the input. I will gladly correct any irregularities prior to installation. No sense starting out on the wrong foot.



Well, according to Steve Eckerich, oil pressure affects the apex seals. So it is clearly not just a longevity issue.[/b]

Well, I think it really is. Think of it in terms of piston-to-wall clearance, or rod/main bearing clearance in a piston engine. Higher pressure in these areas aids longevity.

[GKR_17]

I didn't mean that it wouldn't improve longevity, I meant that it isn't the only thing improved. It's quite possilbe that with the extra oil pressure you could extend rev limit a little more. And aparantly you want the extra pressure when using the high dollar apex seals, which are surely used to improve power.

Grafton

[Eagle7]

Chris, I'm really sorry I sidetracked your questions with that legality issue. I didn't mean to cause such a disruption. It really was a sincere question. I can't figure out whether half the stuff that I hear commonly done is legal or not, but I'd like to know. Still wondering.

[C. Ludwig]

Well, according to Steve Eckerich, oil pressure affects the apex seals. So it is clearly not just a longevity issue.
Grafton
[/b]

I missed this one the first time. This is bunk and I'd like an explanation otherwise.

[seckerich]

I missed this one the first time. This is bunk and I'd like an explanation otherwise.
[/b]
I'm with you there, I thought I was very clear. Oil pressure=motor lives--period. Some people just hear what they want to hear. I see adjusting oil pressure as no different than adjusting valves. It is just a setting like fuel pressure. I guess every car out there runs stock fuel pressure too?

[ddewhurst]

***I guess every car out there runs stock fuel pressure too?***

No, there is a rule .b. p 5 any fuel pump may be used. & an external fuel pressure may be installed.

Steve, where is the rule that specs that any oil pump or any spring may be used.

[Eagle7]

If you plan to spin it past 7500 look at something other than ferrous metal apex seals. Either carbon or cost-no-object ceramic. [/b]
Chris, do you have any objective data or seat-of-the-pants comparison between steel and carbon? Starting/idling issues
RPM where gains begin
Max power/torque gain
Usable RPM range
Life/durability
Ability to conform to used housings
Thanks,

[seckerich]

***I guess every car out there runs stock fuel pressure too?***

No, there is a rule .b. p 5 any fuel pump may be used. & an external fuel pressure may be installed.

Steve, where is the rule that specs that any oil pump or any spring may be used.
[/b]
Nothing personal , but I have seen too many of the rules threads you get into get way out of hand. This is a tech thread for Mazda and you can use the info as you see fit. If you disagee--fine--I will agree to disagree. Just wanted to clear up my first post and the meaning. I was trying to help someone with information--feel free to pick away. Do you think there is a specific rule to allow valve adjustment?

[C. Ludwig]

Chris, do you have any objective data or seat-of-the-pants comparison between steel and carbon? Starting/idling issues
RPM where gains begin
Max power/torque gain
Usable RPM range
Life/durability
Ability to conform to used housings
Thanks,
[/b]


In my experience...

Carbon don't start as well cold. They require a shot of ether in the morning. After that they're golden for the day. The carbon seals require a bit more clearance than a stock type seal and I'm guessing that's where the cold starting becomes an issue. They also don't run quite a spring pressure as a steel seal so there again cranking compression suffers. Idle is same as anything else.

I'm not so sure you're going to see an big gain in power over stock seals within the powerband of an IT engine. The gains will be near the power peak and above. The reason I like them is because they are much easier on the rotor housings. Iron seals start to skip across the housing north of 7k. After some miles you'll actually be able to see lines running perpendicularly across the surface of the housing where the seals are skipping. This a) causes a loss of power because of blow by, and B) eventually ruins an otherwise good housing. So there is a possibility for a slight gain but it's in an area where the power has already peaked and is begining to fall off. Now if you're shifting passed the power peak (say 8500) to optimize average HP then the carbon seals will be an asset in longevity and provide a slight power bump.

Comparing a dyno chart that we have on one of our carbon sealed engines with a dyno chart supplied by a customer on a iron sealed engine we're showing about 4-6lb/ft advantage from 5k+. Though that, IMO, is within the realm of dyno calibration and any of a multitude of differences in the cars themself.

Carbon seals have spun over 10k. No issues with an IT engine. The word on the stock seals is 8500. I think that's optimistic. The Renesis spins to 9k but those seals are about half the height (half the weight...) of a Cosmo seal. There is also not an exhaust port for the Renesis seal to skip across.

There is a guy on nopistons who used to campaign a GT3 RX-7. He's reused his set of carbon seals in several engines. That said, I'm not that thrifty and would opt for new seals if I were building a new engine. The set that came out of my last IT engine when I tore it down after two years measured out at as-new height. I gave them to a friend and we put them in his j-bridge engine. The real deal plus is rotor housing life. Not only are the carbon seals easier on the surface in general they are one piece. The lack of the corner assist piece that likes to dig a groove around the circumference of the housing is a plus. Rotor housings, the real expensive part, should last longer.

Not really sure on their ability to conform with used housings. You really should up for new anyway.

[ddewhurst]

Nothing personal, but you Steve are the typical person who likes to to think he has a grip on everything but don't want to acknowledge written rules.

I ask you where is the rule that specs that any oil pump or any spring may be used (If you can't identify a rule then there must be no rule.) & you don't answer the question about the rule, you stary the thread by talking about valves. Within this thread conversation about modifications to an ITS rotary motor in comes the written rules which make the modifications legal or illegal.

***Do you think there is a specific rule to allow valve adjustment?***

Your darn correct there is a rule about adjusting valves. (Don't blame me for straying the thread.) If the rule ain't writte under .D. Authorized Modifications ya set the valves to the factory workshop manual specifications.


ps: Chris Wire, sorry for messing with your thread but this free lance stuff IMHJ needs to go.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I think there may be some confusion on the oil pump vs. oil pickup wording - especially if they are one integral piece. I will get a clarification from Topeka.

AB

[seckerich]

Nothing personal, but you Steve are the typical person who likes to to think he has a grip on everything but don't want to acknowledge written rules.

I ask you where is the rule that specs that any oil pump or any spring may be used (If you can't identify a rule then there must be no rule.) & you don't answer the question about the rule, you stary the thread by talking about valves. Within this thread conversation about modifications to an ITS rotary motor in comes the written rules which make the modifications legal or illegal.

***Do you think there is a specific rule to allow valve adjustment?***

Your darn correct there is a rule about adjusting valves. (Don't blame me for straying the thread.) If the rule ain't writte under .D. Authorized Modifications ya set the valves to the factory workshop manual specifications.
ps: Chris Wire, sorry for messing with your thread but this free lance stuff IMHJ needs to go.
[/b]
I can live with that assumption. :rolleyes: So by your interpretation I can adjust my oil pressure to 78 PSI @ 3000 rpm like my FSM says I can--right? Mine is right on the money so yes, I think I am Legal. I never said anything about different pumps being legal--just pressure.

[GKR_17]

I can live with that assumption. :rolleyes: So by your interpretation I can adjust my oil pressure to 78 PSI @ 3000 rpm like my FSM says I can--right? Mine is right on the money so yes, I think I am Legal. I never said anything about different pumps being legal--just pressure.
[/b]


A GCR is inlcuded with our licenses now...

See: 17.1.4.D.p

"All engine components not otherwise listed in these rules shall meet factory specifications for stock parts..."

There isn't much room for interpretation here. The parts must be stock, AND anything ajustable (not mentioned elsewhere in the ITCS) must meet factory specs.

[lateapex911]

Ok, just to take this to the logical conclusions. here's where we stand.

A- IF the pump is integral with the pickup, it could be changed to another under the free pickup clause, according to Andy.

B- If it is NOT integral, then the parts within must be stock to an engine on the spec line.

So, if B is the case, SHOULD the rules be ammended to include the phrase "pressure relief spring", to allow higher oil pressure more suitable for racing?

It does appear that the rulemakers felt that better oiling was an important aspect of the IT build, and wrote rules to make allowances for that.

[Chris Wire]

It does appear that the rulemakers felt that better oiling was an important aspect of the IT build, and wrote rules to make allowances for that.
[/b]

I think that the rule allowing alternate oil pickups was to accomodate the legally-used oil pans that may have a different pickup than a stock pan. I pretty much read the rule the same as Grafton and will adjust accordingly.

Sorry for blowing kerosene on a match!

[ddewhurst]

***So by your interpretation I can adjust my oil pressure to 78 PSI @ 3000 rpm like my FSM says I can--right? ***

Steve, naw ya can't adjust the oil pressure control valve because the factory workshop manual gives you no instructions to adjust the oil pressure control valve. The factory workshop manual instructs you to buy a new spring & or plunger if not within specifications.


***So, if B is the case, SHOULD the rules be ammended to include the phrase "pressure relief spring", to allow higher oil pressure more suitable for racing?

It does appear that the rulemakers felt that better oiling was an important aspect of the IT build, and wrote rules to make allowances for that.***

Jake, that would be your take on the current written rule .h. My take on the curent written rule .h. would be that the rules writters wanted to allow one to be sure there was an ample oil supply present to be picked up & to allow one to remove oil to eliminate wasting hp.

Those who are having fun please continue ;)

[Eagle7]

I think there may be some confusion on the oil pump vs. oil pickup wording - especially if they are one integral piece. I will get a clarification from Topeka.

AB
[/b]
Not sure how that's relevant here. The 13B oil pump is a separate part from the oil pickup (assuming by pickup you mean the tube and screen).

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just talking in generalities, not rotories specifically. WIll ask Jeremy his thoughts.

[Scooter]

Here's a topic for the original poster.

If you replace the oil pellet deal behind the front pulley, then do it when the engine is out and on its back. (Front of the engine pointing straight up at the sky.)

I replaced one of those things while very closely following directions while it was still in the car and it got in there incorrectly and ate my engine eventually.

If you have the engine out, put the pellet in there by dropping it straight down. That way the bearing behind it doesn't slip and you're engine will continue to oil correctly.

Use an underdrive pulley. Actually two of them, for the main pulley and for the alternator.

From what I learned from talking to folks, you don't really need a turbo oil pump. You just need to shim the regulator. Which I did and it seems to work ok. Even with the extra factory oil cooler, which lessens the oil pressure. I would REALLY recommend a second factory oil cooler, btw. I just couldn't get my car to stay at reasonable temperatures without one. I also fitted a big electric fan so that it won't overheat when I come off the track and putt around the pits.

Also you can throw out all of the emission controls, but make sure that what's left doesn't leak and is in working order. Vacuum leaks are common on these things. Make sure all of the vacuum stubs are blocked off behind the manifold, too.

Get a real oil and water temperature gauge. The factory stuff is useless for keeping your engine alive.

You probably know most of this, but I figured I would post it just in case.

[Chris Wire]

Here's a topic for the original poster.

If you replace the oil pellet deal behind the front pulley, then do it when the engine is out and on its back. (Front of the engine pointing straight up at the sky.)

I replaced one of those things while very closely following directions while it was still in the car and it got in there incorrectly and ate my engine eventually.

If you have the engine out, put the pellet in there by dropping it straight down. That way the bearing behind it doesn't slip and you're engine will continue to oil correctly.[/b]

Got it, engine's out, will act accordingly.



Use an underdrive pulley. Actually two of them, for the main pulley and for the alternator.[/b]

Got 'em already



From what I learned from talking to folks, you don't really need a turbo oil pump. You just need to shim the regulator. Which I did and it seems to work ok. Even with the extra factory oil cooler, which lessens the oil pressure. I would REALLY recommend a second factory oil cooler, btw. I just couldn't get my car to stay at reasonable temperatures without one. I also fitted a big electric fan so that it won't overheat when I come off the track and putt around the pits.[/b]

I actually have a very large Fluidyne oil-to-air cooler that will sit where the factory cooler goes. It is used by others here in SEDiv and seems to work well. The key seems to be placement in the airflow, and sealing up the nose via splitter and undertray (back to the rear edge of the front bumper, of course!)




Also you can throw out all of the emission controls, but make sure that what's left doesn't leak and is in working order. Vacuum leaks are common on these things. Make sure all of the vacuum stubs are blocked off behind the manifold, too.

Get a real oil and water temperature gauge. The factory stuff is useless for keeping your engine alive.

You probably know most of this, but I figured I would post it just in case.
[/b]

Thanks Scooter.