Dynapck at LRP for the NARRCs

[lateapex911]

A few years back, a company brought a chassis dyno to LRP for the NARRCs, and it was pretty cool.

A bunch of us in IT have always wanted to get all the players on the same dyno, on the same day. In the past, we've seen the dyno actually eliminate friction between teams.

We think it would be great to legitimize the great efforts we've seen this year. So far, we have solid commitments from a number of guys at the very front of the field. There are lots of ways to organize this, and those are being worked out, but it's important to have a handle on the interest going in.

For those unfamiliar, the Dynapack is a chassis dyno that is really quite neat. It bolts to the hubs of the car, and eliminates the entire tire/roller interface issues, and produces accurate and consistent numbers.

Here's what we we thinking. One run, $50, 3 runs, $100 or so. Of course, this wouldn't be limited to IT guys or just the guys at the front of the pack. All would be welcome. Heck, I'll bring this years race car, AND next years car to get a baseline on it, too. The convenience factor is huge!

So....any interest???? I need to get back to the shop early the week of the 12th to move it forward.

Thanks!

[Andy Bettencourt]

Not only am I in but I think this would go a long way to really bringing some folklore out of the closet. I challenge the top 5 in every class to participate.

My ITA Miata is in 100%. Might be a good cross-post to the Northeast section on specmiata.com...

AB

[lateapex911]

Cross post away Andy! (Jim Daniels took issue with a comment I made there years ago and I'm no longer welcome there, LOL)

[RSTPerformance]

ok... never used a Dyno... so the question is:

What is the gain of having 3 pulls rather than 1 pull? Could the first pull not have accuracte results, thus the need to have 3 pulls to get a good number? or do you do 3 pulls after tinkering with a few things such as timing?

As for will we do it? depends on the value. What do I gain by having 1 pull? What do I gain by having 2 or 3 pulls?

If having 1 pull gains me nothing but being able to say I haved X amount of HP at the wheels then I have no reason to do it other than to compair my car to my brothers car and/or prove some sort of legality. I suspect that most other people won't do it in ITB so I have no interest in putting myself out thier and knowone else doing the same. However I could convince myself to do it if... I was paying for someone else that was at the top and that person paid for me, basicaly I find value in compairing myself to another one of my front running competitors. If everyone does it (at least 2 or 3 other people), then I am in, if nobody else is willing to do it then I am out.

Raymond "thinking a bit" Blethen

[Andy Bettencourt]

Raymond,

Someone has to be the first to put themselves out there. The ITA guys are into it so that we can all know what we are putting to the ground - it legitimizes wins and makes for excellent comparisons - allowing you to decide if you are being beaten by driving or motor.

These are not 'tuning' runs. Multiple runs are usually used to achieve the absolute max in hp as all fluids are warm and everything is at operating temp. Depending on when the testing was done in proximity to on-track run-groups, one run would sufficient.

Ask yourself these questions:

1. Would you pay $50 to quiet any skeptics who thought you must be cheating because you are at the front?

2. Would you pay $50 to participate in an apples to apples comparison with other drivers in your class?

3. Would you pay $50 to compare your 'budget' effort to some of the top $$$ guys in your class?

4. Would you pay $50 to learn that you made the same power as the top guys and needed to focus on your driving?

5 Would you pay $50 to learn that you were X% off power-wise to the top guys and either be happy with that or begin to step up your program?

I am sure there are many more. Just do it! I think it's important for the top guys in each class to participate.

[Greg Amy]

The gauntlet has been tossed...and I pick it up!



(I'd look pretty stoopid if I didn't, given I'm one of the instigators...)

[JohnRW]

Will there be tropies for the best dyno runs ?

Since they're 'proof' runs and not 'tuning' runs, what's to keep somebody from jacking a little timing out of their engine beforehand to drop the numbers down a bit ? I'm always really skeptical of 'proof' runs, unless carried out under squeaky clean, laboratory conditions.

Of course, I won't have a car there, so you're all free to ignore me. Just be careful driving around the paddock, and don't knock over any garbage cans.

[RSTPerformance]

Ask yourself these questions:

1. Would you pay $50 to quiet any skeptics who thought you must be cheating because you are at the front?

2. Would you pay $50 to participate in an apples to apples comparison with other drivers in your class?

3. Would you pay $50 to compare your 'budget' effort to some of the top $$$ guys in your class?

4. Would you pay $50 to learn that you made the same power as the top guys and needed to focus on your driving?

5 Would you pay $50 to learn that you were X% off power-wise to the top guys and either be happy with that or begin to step up your program?

I am sure there are many more. Just do it! I think it's important for the top guys in each class to participate.
[/b]


Andy-

Thanks for the info... and asking myself those questions I say heck yes!!! I am concerned though that others in ITB will not be interested at making the runs. Wait what am I saying??? All the ITB guys (sorry no gals here in the northeast anymore in ITB) have been stressing legality and what not this season so I am sure that the entire class will want to run on the Dyno!!! Other ITB'ers can we get some feedback? Are you in?

Raymond "I will have the $50.00 in my pocket and the car ready to go IF others are also doing it :birra: " Blethen


Jake-

Any chance someone (the dyno guy) wants to support/sponsor the IT contingents at this event?

$100 cash reward to the first place car
$50 cash reward to the second place car
$25 cash reward to the third place car

Make any car that has run at least one run on the Dyno that weekend and runs his stickers for support eligable. I would be willing to make up the vynil for them.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Will there be tropies for the best dyno runs ?

Since they're 'proof' runs and not 'tuning' runs, what's to keep somebody from jacking a little timing out of their engine beforehand to drop the numbers down a bit ? I'm always really skeptical of 'proof' runs, unless carried out under squeaky clean, laboratory conditions.

Of course, I won't have a car there, so you're all free to ignore me. Just be careful driving around the paddock, and don't knock over any garbage cans. [/b]

You and that garbage can joke - won't go away! :)

Nothing really to stop anyone from 'cheating' the test, but it isn't official and is voluntary. I would love to see if we can coordinate it for right after each qualifying - drive right to the dyno and take a run. If we get a daily charge from the guy, we can split up the cost even better - assuming people want to learn something!

You have to commit - and then ask people to join you. A 'if you do it , I will do it' approach will net a big ZERO in ITB - and the legality questions will continue.

And you can't 'win'...what incentive would I have to put my underpowered Miata on the dyno if it was a power contest? It's a nice 'proofing' and everyone should learn a lot!

[gran racing]

How valuable will the numbers be to those who do not have competitors with the same make / model? Since Ray and Greg sound like they may do it, is there much value learning that the Audi makes 130 HP at the wheels and the NX2000 makes 160 HP? Although I am very curious to see what some cars are making.

Would there be a feasable way to make it part of the post race inspection process? Or even do a few random ones post qual. then some post race? How much would it cost to get it for the day?

[dickita15]

Once upon a time far far away there was, or so the story goes, a CRX driver and a Integra driver who used to suspect the other were cheating an consequently did not like each other. They finally both went to the dyno together and compared numbers. They learned that they both had similar power to weight ratios and were both actually just good drivers with well prepped cars. They got along much better after that and enjoyed their racing much more. I guess you could say they lived happily ever after.

[lateapex911]

Dave, tell me you wouldn't just love to know what the guys in B are putting down! Dynos are great devices...Andy has made great points. IMO, all the classes should embrace the chance.

3 runs are best, as you can see consistency...things get warmer, (and friction is reduced in trans and diffs, so power goes up) or things warm up and the engine heat soaks....and power drops. Better science with multiple pulls.

For $50, I would think nearly every racer in the paddock would be curious, even if they already know....as to compare yourself against the same guys on the same day on the same dyno is huge. THe spec 944 guys from NASA are big fans.

I think we'll see the top guys from the area do it, and post some solid numbers....I don't think they have anything to hide.

As for contingency prizes, we'll have to see, but my main concern is making the numbers work so that we can pull it off at all.

Dicks story is a true story, but it cost those guys a heck of a lot more than this will.

[dazzlesa]

from what i remember the dynapak #'s are different than lets say a mustang or a dynojet. but it is a good tool for comparison.i have no problem doing it with my B civic. it would be interesting to see where its at.On the other hand there is no way you can see what the A car does.i wont do it. i refuse to find out that i can not drive and that the hp makes me look good :( . rick

[TimM ITB]

Raymond and others - count me in! As a matter of fact, I think it's a great idea to get as many in our ITB group to join in as possible. I would love to see what the other cars in our group (especially the VW MK1's, MK2's and MK3's) are pulling for numbers! The more information that is "in the light" - the better it is for everyone. We have been on the "legality" bandwagon since April, and although this is not anything more than comparing dyno numbers, it is a continued step in the right direction. Besides, we can't have the ITA guys showing us up!
Tim M

[dazzlesa]

thinking about it, i would love to see comparisons. i was surprised to get beat by greg from turn one to the bus stop at the glen. even andys mosquito had plenty of steam at lrp. if i get both cars there i will join the party.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Maybe we should make a list as to why guys WOULDN'T want to get on the dyno in front of his/her peers. Have fun with that one!

[Greg Amy]

Rick, both Andy and I will divvy up, and I'm betting we can count on JoeD and Jeff Lawton, too. Further, Anthony has expressed interest in meeting up with me for dyno comparos, so I'm sure he'd be interested in you having your A car pulled too... - GA



from what i remember the dynapak #'s are different than lets say a mustang or a dynojet.
[/b]

They do. Unless you want me to get off on my "DynoJet" rant, let me simply say that the DynaPack provides a true, accurate, repeatable measurement of wheel torque and calculates horsepower from there (as opposed to the others which measure rate of acceleration, infer horsepower from that, and reverse-engineer torque from that inference.)

When you get measured by a DynaPack, you know you're getting an accurate number. - GA

[lateapex911]

Right. As a guy on the ITAC, I would kill for all our knowledge to come from torque measuring devices. As far as i'm concerned the Dynapak it the best option by far for most of us club racers.

[RSTPerformance]

Ok with TIm and Rick in I am in. Settled :) I can also say with certainty that Stephen will also be in.

Thats 4 ITB cars!!!

Raymond Blethen ITB Audi
Stephen Blethen ITB Audi
Tim Mullen ITB MKIII
Rick benazic ITB honda civic


As for the sponsorship/contingency. I think that it would be respectful to supply some sort of contingency, even if you add in another requirement... at least 5 cars from the class need to take at leat 1 run.

Profit: 5 cars X $50 = $250 minimum
Contingency: $100 (1st) + $50(2nd) + $25(3rd) = $175 Maximum total payout

Minimum profits if the top 3 were eligable would be $75 per class.

Probable classes that will have enough cars IF thier were a contingency would be ITA, ITB, ITS, SM, SSM (or 5 classes) I don't mean to leave out ITC I am just worried that you wont all do it :P , but it would be cool to compair all the rates among all the different classes, I would be interested to see as many of the ITC cars have very similar times and I think most of it is handling, not HP.

Anyway 5 classes * $75 minimum profit = $375. If you ask me that is a bare bottom min and while I respect gaining a profit, people renting cars are not even making much more than that for a days work.

Raymond

[lateapex911]

Raymond, you have to remember, this is a lot of work for somebody, and there are expenses that will be incurred. You can't just spout off numbers as profits when you have no idea of the costs involved. If he has the unit at Lime Rock, that means he's potentially turning away clients at the shop....lost revenue, aka more costs. So this needs to be a clear upside for him. At this point we're looking at the possibilities and the potential numbers to see if there's even a chance at making it work numbers-wise.

And there are more hoops that I need to jump through....Lime Rock will be all over this if it appears to be a money making proposition....and posting awards certainly makes it look like that.


Then we need to get the Regions blessings (calls have been placed).

This isn't a slam dunk.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Quit trying to make this a profitable thing for the car owner and let the poor guy who invested $60K in the dyno make a buck or two. Pony up and learn something!!!!!

Greg, who do we have?

Andy
Greg
Jeff L.
Joe D.
BBRacing guys?
Tim?
Serra with Lorenzo's CRX?
Doug in Blaney's old horse?

[67ITB]

I have to work that weekend, but if it can get done on Friday count me in.

I hope that after building 3 :dead_horse: :bash_1_: engines this year we are over 100 hp. we finally kept it off the wall long enough to drain the "break in oil" out of this one. :bash_1_:

Looking for 108hp

Matt Bal

[Jake]

If I make less WHP than any of the guys in B will you move me? :rolleyes:

Jake "about 90hp to the wheels" Fisher

[lateapex911]

Maaaaaybeeee....;)

So can we add you to the list?

[dickita15]

If I make less WHP than any of the guys in B will you move me? :rolleyes:

Jake "about 90hp to the wheels" Fisher
[/b]
seriously Jake, hard data is tough to come by. We know there will be a couple of ITAC guys there and probably one or two CRB guys so it would be a great chance to give them a data point. if I am racing that weekend I will take a pull for just that reason.

[JLawton]

Wow, I haven't checked the site for 12 hours and I'm already late to the discussion!!
Count me in!!

To Raymond's point, I imagine there are a few ITB guys (some who don't even read this forum....No names) who are front runners and who will not do it. And those are the guys are the ones I would want to see do it!!



A couple of logistics problems............... (party pooper mode on)

What about the guys who don't read this forum and show up. My guess is that being caught off guard, many wouldn't do it.....

Time: I remember the last time they were there, there was always a line. To get that many cars through is going to be tough. When at the track, I hardly have enough time to go to the bathroom let alone standing in line for an hour or two!! (of course, if I didn't have to work on the %&*#$ car all the time, maybe it wouldn't be so bad!!)

If there are some front runners who won't do it, it will prove nothing to me. In fact, I would start to question those cars where I haven't in the past.................

(Party pooper mode off)

I think it's a great idea!!! Thanks for the leg work Jake!! :023:

[hunter164]

Ill try to talk to the rest of the BB guys today. I think we will only have 2 cars up there this weekend. We do a fair amount of dyno testing, but for the sake of comparison they may want to jump in.

[Tkczecheredflag]

Not only am I in but I think this would go a long way to really bringing some folklore out of the closet. I challenge the top 5 in every class to participate.

My ITA Miata is in 100%. Might be a good cross-post to the Northeast section on specmiata.com...

AB
[/b]
I've been away from the site for a day too. Not sure about being in the "top 5" but if the Gods smile on me at the NARRC-OFFS I'm in for a pull. Nothing to hide here - sounds like fun - loved Dicks story about T and A.

[dickita15]

loved Dicks story about T and A.
[/b]
T and A !! I thought this was a PG site. oh yea I get it now. :P

[Jeremy Billiel]

I am certainly not in the top 5 or top 15 for that matter, but if people really want to see what a stock GSR puts down I am in!

:D :D

[Rabbit05]

If I can get my Rabbit back together for the race at Lime Rock, I would be interested in doing it. I would like to see what my Rabbit would do on the dyno. Since we just put a new motor in it and then I went and put in the wall last year. :bash_1_:

But since I am on a tight budget ,I might have to fore go buying beer for the weekend.... :birra:


John VanDenburgh

VanDenburgh Motorsports
ITC Rabbit 05

[BillW]

If this is the SAME guy that was at LRP a few years back, make sure your car has a locking diff.. It won't work with open of worn clutch/viscous diff since it requires both wheels to spin at the same speed. There is no coupling between the units which attach to the drive hubs (you need to remove your wheels). It also reads a little lower than a Dynojet type chassis dyno ( I'm told) Just as a reference, my SSM a few yeas back dyno'd at 89 RWHP! I still have the same crate motor on it's sixth year, so it might be interesting to do another run this year...

Bill

[Andy Bettencourt]

To Raymond's point, I imagine there are a few ITB guys (some who don't even read this forum....No names) who are front runners and who will not do it. And those are the guys are the ones I would want to see do it!!
[/b]

I typed up a whole response and then deleted it. This is a perfect opportunity for many for many different reasons. The integrity of the NER IT classes can be made or broken at this event. I know this is a hard line but we have very few impersonal ways to 'call people out' - and this is one.

[Greg Amy]

It won't work with open of worn clutch/viscous diff since it requires both wheels to spin at the same speed.[/b]

That's incorrect, Bill. It will work fine with an open or viscous diff, I've done it. The two units (called "power absorption units") will control each wheel's speed such that they are always equal, regardless of the differential. It, in effect, becomes the limited-slip diff... You can even get a graph showing the torque split between the two wheels, if you're so inclined.

Details of the unit at: http://www.dynapack.com/dynapack.html

BTW, it's not the same company as before, it's a new guy from Canton.

[dazzlesa]

i think some things should be cleared up. to compare would be great. this would get rid of some myths and maybe fuel some new discussions. but the part of calling people out is a whole different animal.only knowledgeable engine people can decifer what the #'s mean to a specific car. even compaing 2 of the same cars does not prove that one is illegal because it makes more power. i know some people are very #'s savy but for those that may not be, this should not be used as a witch hunt. As in the past if there is a group conensus of a issue, then and only then should any actions follow. i hope i am making some sense

[BillW]

I don't recall which brand dyno was at LRP a few years back, but I specifically recall he said that he couldn't do a few cars (SM) because they had bad viscous diffs or open diffs. I remeber this because one of the cars I was interested in had a Sunbelt motor with viscous diff and they couldn't get a good pull on it..

Bill

[Andy Bettencourt]

i think some things should be cleared up. to compare would be great. this would get rid of some myths and maybe fuel some new discussions. but the part of calling people out is a whole different animal.only knowledgeable engine people can decifer what the #'s mean to a specific car. even compaing 2 of the same cars does not prove that one is illegal because it makes more power. i know some people are very #'s savy but for those that may not be, this should not be used as a witch hunt. As in the past if there is a group conensus of a issue, then and only then should any actions follow. i hope i am making some sense [/b]

You are making sense - but I think it is misguided. These numbers mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. What is does would be different to everyone. See my post #5 in this thread. It makes more sense to me that guys who are willing to show their hand who have high numbers are legal.

I could get into this from a thousand different angles on why I think guys WON'T get on the dyno in front of their peers. To each his own. Rick - to me you sound like a guy whose car makes a ton of power and you know it - but are afraid of just how much it IS making and the ruckus that may cause. If I had MSN stuff, or Blaney stuff, or Kessler stuff, I would be proud to put down the numbers and know I was legal.

This ain't no witch hunt. It's an opportunity for people to learn a few things - about cars that participate - and surmise about cars that don't.

Take Greg's car for instance. If he refused to hit the dyno when we all were, I question his legality. Right or wrong on my part - so be it - but for those who have ever heard that some people think they are cheating - this is a PERFECT way to shut them up.

Maybe I am just not afraid of my results becoming public. 133whp on a dynojet ain't gonna rustle anyones feathers - just may help them understand they need to drive better. Depends on what you are 'willing' to learn.

[Greg Amy]

I don't recall which brand dyno was at LRP a few years back...[/b]

Same dyno, the DynaPack. If that's what they said, then I'd kindly suggest they were not familiar with the operation of the device. That could possibly explain why they do not have one anymore... - GA




Take Greg's car for instance. If he refused to hit the dyno when we all were, I question his legality...[/b]

Then again, maybe I just wanted to screw with you... ;)

I don't see how knowing the HP number determines legality. Can anyone tell me what is the maximum possible horsepower/torque available from a completely-legal Nissan engine? A Honda? A Dodge? Anything? Beuhler? Ideas and processes change, and what's max-legal hp today will change tomorrow, guaranteed. I don't know of anyone that stops when they reach a magic figure and says, "that's it!"...

So, if you think it's a good idea to take this number to determine legality, I'd say you're way off base. I guarantee you there's guys out there that can get more power oout of a legal engine than others.

On the other hand, as Rick implied, if I was making a buttload of power and still losing, I'd feel like crap...maybe THAT'S why some folks won't pull...? Others may not want to spend the money, while some simply may not give two shakes. You can try and convince some folks to do it, but you can't make them, it's their choice. It's also others' choices to infer from those actions, rightly or wrongly...

[MKessler]

Are we going to let all competitors in a class view the sheets/display if agreed beforehand, or just the ITAC? I vote yes for all to see. A max whp number is one thing, a torque curve is another. Whoops, maybe I shouldn&#39;t have pointed that out. <_<

I suggest three runs as a standard for the "official" comparisons. The first run will be lower than the last.

Those of you used to Dynojet numbers, bring tissues.

Who&#39;s bringing the duck for the witch weighing?

[Ed Funk]

If we have both itc cars running that weekend, we&#39; be interested in doing both, especially if Steph starts kicking my butt with what should be an identical car. <_< If that happens, I&#39;d immediately suspect her crew chief of building a cheater. :D But, you&#39;d have to wonder why I wouldn&#39;t do the same for mine :wacko:

[RSTPerformance]

First- sorry for pushing the contingency issue, not my place I guess as like was said I am unaware of the cost to actually set this dyno thing up and operate it.

My current feelings...

I agree 100% that I WANT to go and do at least 1 pull for 2 reasons.

A) compaire the newly built-up motor that will be in Stephens car (hopefully tonight) to the 4 year old unbuilt motor in my car. it would be interesting to see what gains you can get. his motor will be perfectly broken in at that point.

B) We are generally near the front and I think that others would be interested to see our numbers and we are certainly interested to see how we stack up against everyone else. I am sure that we have a tone more HP but we also weigh a good 300lbs+ on many other cars. It should be interesting to see how the P/W ratio&#39;s stack up.

Why I wont do it:

A) If money is tight and we have to choose between taking 1 pull with each car costing $100 or taking the crew to dinner, we will take the crew to dinner, they are far more important than all of you :wacko: !!! I had earlier suggested the contingency because I am a gambler and would hope to finish in the top 3 and I might just gamble the crews dinner on our performance. :unsure:

B) If thier is a 2 hour line, I am likely not going to sit in it. I don&#39;t want to make anymore suggestions on how to make this whole thing work better, but I am going to open my mouth and suggest a sign up sheet is ready incase a line starts to form.

Hope the feedback is helpful, I encourage all that can afford it to do so at least just for the fun factor of compairing numbers.

Raymond

[Andy Bettencourt]

Greg,

I think we can all agree this won&#39;t determine anything. What is does is give others a reference point to think anything they want. And then act on that info how they choose...most likely deciding that they can improve as DRIVERS instead of thowing money at the car - or that they NEED to throw some money at the car to be competitive.

Maybe people aren&#39;t ready for this. Let&#39;s sh!t-can the idea and set up a private dyno day with you, me and Serra&#39;s stuff. Tell me where and when.

(On edit) Hard lining today all over the place - work, other forums, etc. I am ready to mix it up at NHIS. Watch out!

[lateapex911]

Guys, lets not get too caught up in grand conclusions from this. It&#39;s as much about the spirit, and the comraderie of the NE guys as it is about anything else. We&#39;re all just gentleman racers, remember?

I expect to see some cool cars make some good pulls. Trends may emerge, or perhaps, interesting exceptions might arise. (90 hp ITA MR2s, for example). Last time I did this my RX-7 (which was, at the time a top 6 car at NHIS) made 101 ft lbs of Tq and 106 hp. To me, that was useful info, especially when I compared it to the others in my class. More data points is rarely a bad thing.

Finally, lets say there&#39;s a guy......he&#39;s WAY fast on certain days, at certain tracks, blows up in grand flaming ways regularly, and he decides to "opt out" of a pull here. Does that single act mean he&#39;s not legal? No, but it&#39;s another nail in the coffin, so to speak, and he knows it.


Matts right...Dynapacks aren&#39;t mental masterbation ego machines...the numbers are real, repeatable, and not inflated.

[Knestis]

...Who&#39;s bringing the duck for the witch weighing?[/b]

That&#39;s funny as heck! So if my car sinks, it&#39;s legal - right?

I&#39;ve been watching this with some interest but not chiming in since it&#39;s not really in my bailiwick. However, there are overlapping issues at work here that haven&#39;t really been talked through...

1. Sure - it&#39;s a natural inference that, if someone won&#39;t do a public pull (that might not be a term to use in polite company), then they have something to hide.

2. However, in the dawning era of the PCA I can completely see some folks being appropriately worried that the inference taken away from this kind of test won&#39;t be used to affirm/disaffirm their individual legality but instead to influence decisions about classing and spec&#39;d weights. This could, I fear, be another couple of steps over the crest of the slippery slope toward true competition adjustments (bleah!). It goes like this...

a. We&#39;ve already started applying fudge factors to the "IT build multiplier" to determine power for the base wt/hp math, based on the manufacturer and "common knowledge" of how much different powerplants gain with IT improvements.

b. If it turns out (picking something out of thin air) that the MR2 DOES in fact demonstrate that "with a full-tilt build, I promise!" it only makes 85 whp (blame the exhaust restriction), someone might reasonably use that as evidence that it should be in B instead of A. Andy already suggested as much is possible...**

c. Lawton (since he&#39;s just this kind of bloodthirsty competitor) sees that move and the policy power of the at-track dyno demo is established! He makes the case that the Acura engine realizes greater gains than the the Tupperware SL2 (or whatever it is) and finds a sympathetic ear with an ITAC member who thinks that the fudge factor needs to be tweaked for one engine or the other.

d. We haven&#39;t crossed the line to make/model specific CA&#39;s but we have effectively arrived at the same place. Ick.

3. We&#39;ve seen in the last year plenty of requests in FasTrack that are clearly efforts to protect (or restore) the competitive position of make/model spec lines in the ITCS. That is going to be a natural reaction when drivers feel like their competitive investment is being threatened, even if they aren&#39;t being individually accused of cheating. Heck - the dynamic I describe is possible only if the assembled masses really believe that the cars being dyno tested are LEGAL.

4. All that said, i&#39;d do it in a minute for the learning value (dyno-to-dyno comparison) and for the symbolic power that Andy describes so well. I ain&#39;t afraid of questions of legality but it occurs even to me that it could raise little shitstorms among the ITB ranks if they learn that my engine is faster than they are, and "all" I have to do is be a better driver to beat them. :)

K

** On Edit - I ALREADY think that the MR2 and its cousins should be in B, based on what we already think we know.

[dazzlesa]

i am not afraid of showing what i have, and for curiousity sake i will do it so we all have something to talk about. being that the car is a past arrc winner i think most know that the car has ponies under the hood. i just think that some may not understand as you said that in the grand skeem they do not mean anything.I am not afraid of what i have,i do beleive others ,for various reasons, are.
on the flip side i do think that there is a price paid for the bulids of these cars.i think we have a right to hold on to this info. i think it should be shared with others that step up to the plate and do the same with there cars,meaning putting there own cars on the dyno. i know this will be done in a public enviroment and all is welcome to see.but i donot beleive that it should be broadcast to the whole nation. from my opinon if anthony wishes to share his info then he has every right. from my stand point i think if msn has found something that no else has then why should you tell the other integra builders about it. let them earn that info.i think that info gives msn or greg or anybody a competitive edge against other builders. the above info is an example. i have no idea where my car stands or anyone elses.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Rick - I hear you. Just becasue X car puts out X more doesn&#39;t mean the secret is out. It just means you should call Anthony and buy his stuff if you want that kind of power!

There are a million reasons to do it and a million to not. You just have to decide what reason you go with.

[dazzlesa]

yes but if i am (example) sunbelt or or someother car builder that would not make sense. i guess since i own a buisness i am thinking from that point of view.

[lateapex911]

Rick, thats cool. And you&#39;re right...your car DOES have solid power, no doubt about it. It&#39;s a first class effort to be sure. But again, you carry more weight than, say, the mosquito! And you&#39;re FWD, so it&#39;s not all about power.

Point being, that unless somebody pops the chart at some huge number like 200 hp for a 1.8 ltr engine, it&#39;s impossible to draw any sweeping conclusions.

As for MSN, and the secrets of success....merely showing another example of that successs doesn&#39;t tell anyone HOW it was done. No ECU mapping or exhaust profiles are being broadcast here, so the secrets are safe.




Kirk, as always, makes good points...but, it&#39;s not about the knowledge, it&#39;s about using the knowledge. The ITAC is smart enough to know that it&#39;s not about single pulls with unverified builds, just as it&#39;s smart enough to not believe reports of 225 hp at the wheels of German vundercars.

[Greg Amy]

This is getting beyond silly.

If we can get enough commitment to get the guy to drag his equipment to the track - and we get approval from the track so there&#39;s no conflicts - I&#39;m paying for whatever it takes, for as many times as it takes, to put it all out there for everyone to see. I&#39;ll pull in line right after coming off the track, you pick the driver to warm the seat, Matt and I will stand off to the side and gloat.

I don&#39;t care if you (collective you, I&#39;m not pointing to anyone specifically) do it, and for whatever reason you choose not to. If you think that number is valuable to you hidden, so be it. Neither your knowledge of my numbers nor my knowledge of yours is of any advantage or disadvantage; it will convince you of neither my legality nor my illegality. Knowledge changes not one teensy eentsy bit whether I win or lose, it&#39;ll just mess with your mind (or ease it).

For reference, my best DynaPack pull was a 147hp, and that was exactly as raced in the &#39;05 ARRC, where I placed 4th. We pulled it out of the enclosd trailer, dyno&#39;d it, put anti-freeze in the radiator, loaded it back in the trailer, and let it sit in there until I unloaded it for the &#39;06 season. The only engine work done to the car since the ARRC - besides oil and filter changes and anti-freeze changout - is an aluminum crank pulley and a different muffler. Hell, I think we&#39;re still running the same spark plugs as in the &#39;05 ARRC!

One Forty Seven wheel ponies, kids. That&#39;s only 7 more than stock crank.

Now, how big is yours?

[MMiskoe]

I won&#39;t be at that event, but I think its a great idea (sure sounds contradictory).

This has as much ability to make people look good by either showing that they can build good motors, or they can drive well using a turd for an engine. It also will do the same for the ITAC/CRB as the relative pwr/wt ratios might be spot on, or wildly off.

Need to keep people well aware that these numbers will only able to compare against nothing. Its all relative. Do a pull today, it will be different tomorrow. No two cars are going to have the same level of prep. There won&#39;t be that many cars that are similar. Probably can&#39;t tell people too many times that these numbers are only able to compare to the car next to them that day. You might as well print the curves w/ no scale printed on them. OTOH with nothing else to use, they will become the best set of numbers anyone has ever seen...

Any chance that a BWM would do a pull w/ & w/o the SIR??? (shit stirring) Same for a 1.8l SM car? Any chance results could get posted for those of us not able to attend?

Matt

[lateapex911]

Well, so far this is ...ummmm...interesting.

Be that as it may, at this point I&#39;d say interest is high. By my rough count, we&#39;ve got a little over 20 guys who are in.

Interestingly, except for Jeremy (thanks, Jeremy) we have no ITS guys. Hmmm? Maybe they don&#39;t check in that often?

Spread the word! Call the guys who aren&#39;t net savvy!

I think I&#39;ll cross post this on the RR/AX board as well.

[Tkczecheredflag]

All that being said the power and driver combination is key. Lord knows I am not connecting all the dots as a driver in my car. Moderate power, a good driver and great gears - now were talking.

Gearing is what interests me more. I grab 5th in the TEG and it feels like I pulled a chute at the drag strip. I remember seeing an in car video once and this car never came out of it&#39;s powerband - Ponies, Gears and Revs - WOW! Oh yeah it was a pretty good driver too.

[dazzlesa]

Sorry for sounding a little crazy yesterday. maybe i slept on the wrong side of the bed.Lets line them up and dyno them. rick

[Eric Parham]

Is this a go? I&#39;d spring for at least one run after my race, mainly for my own curiosity. Still thinking, but I&#39;ll probably only share my results with those who share their own results with me. I definitely don&#39;t want to support any classing or de facto rules changes along the lines of NASA&#39;s GTS (stationary wheel dyno divided by spec weight equals class).

If people really want such a simple divisor-based class (I don&#39;t -- too many "loopholes"), I think it should be from scratch rather than from IT. Keep in mind that the chassis dyno bundles many factors besides the basic engine specs, such as gearbox/diff/lube choices, CV prep, bearing prep, exhaust tuning, all engine tuning, etc. One thing it does not bundle up is ram air effect (and intake air temp at speed), and that really is a biggie for some.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Trust me when I say this: it would be rediculous to use this data for rule changes or anything of the sort. This is a NARRC thing. There is no way to prove any numbers obtained are legal etc. Each individual will get out of it what they want.

[16v]

I&#39;d be interested to see what an ITC &#39;rocco puts down on the dyno for sure

[StephenB]

I&#39;m just worried that my brother may be ahead of me and I may have the faster car!!

So if I am beating him I am all in! But if he is beating me I will need to be peer pressured... with $$ of course!

Stephen

Now if Tim beats me on HP I am lobbying that those A3&#39;s get weight penalties or be pushed to ITA!! :)

It would be cool to see everyone do this after qualifying then get a seal on your hood. Then adjust the grid with handicaps and have standing starts accordingly... Unrealistic and it would never work but it sounds fun!

[Wes]

I&#39;m in with the ITS RX-7 and the SSM if it&#39;s there. It&#39;s a great opportunity to see how your car&#39;s engine stacks up. Don&#39;t understand why people would be hesitant. Those with big horsepower #&#39;s should be proud of their accomplishment and sets targets for those of us who aren&#39;t there yet. My only concern would be the wait in line, hopefully we could orginize that, like right after qualifying and keeping it to one hot run??? how about the other ITS guys???

[pfcs49]

You don&#39;t even have to put your money where your mouth is-I will.
I&#39;ll pay for every entered ITB car to do one $50 pull-IF
Both Blethems, Zaslow, Reese, and Gerundo are included and complete a pull.
I get archival copies of the torque and horspower plots for all cars.
Simple enough.
Phil Hunt

[RSTPerformance]

You don&#39;t even have to put your money where your mouth is-I will.
I&#39;ll pay for every entered ITB car to do one $50 pull-IF
Both Blethems, Zaslow, Reese, and Gerundo are included and complete a pull.
I get archival copies of the torque and horspower plots for all cars.
Simple enough.
Phil Hunt
[/b]

It would be nice to compaire that list to you(Did you build a car yet?), Travis Warshey VW Rabit, Scott Carlson Volvo 142, Nat Wentworth Volvo 142, Paul Currens Volvo 142, Tim Mullens VW MKIII, Tom Kelly&#39;s (Richie Hunter) VW MKIII, Jim McMahn Opel GT, Richard Gleason VW Rabbit/Golf, and Rick benazic
Honda Civic. All also front running cars that I think may be racing.

Raymond

[gran racing]

You don&#39;t even have to put your money where your mouth is-I will.
I&#39;ll pay for every entered ITB car to do one $50 pull [/b]

Wow! That&#39;s pretty freakn&#39; cool. Every ITB car? That could get a bit expensive.


I get archival copies of the torque and horspower plots for all cars.[/b]

For a driver who has a legit engine, is there any valid reason one might not want copies of their dyno runs floating around? I can&#39;t imagine another competitor could use it to their advantage, but could be wrong.

[Eric Parham]

For a driver who has a legit engine, is there any valid reason one might not want copies of their dyno runs floating around? I can&#39;t imagine another competitor could use it to their advantage, but could be wrong.
[/b]

If it won&#39;t be used for competition adjustments (and that remains an "if" in my mind), then I agree that there&#39;s no reason that folks with completely different engines (e.g., Honda vs. VW) could learn anything helpful to shortcut their development programs. They might learn your achilles heal, but you&#39;d have a chance to learn theirs too (as long as the sharing of results is mutual).

However, for folks with the same or very similar engines but with a different development effort, it will require some deduction but their is much to be learned from a similar engine with a slightly different torque curve, for example. My thoughts are that, although it will be fun to compare my VW results with Ed Funk&#39;s ex-Klvana Honda or Fred White&#39;s, I don&#39;t expect to really learn anything from it. On the other hand, if Brian Megliola steps up with his well-tuned ITC VW engine, I might just learn something useful that could be applied to my own program (not that I&#39;m implying that there&#39;s anything more to eek out of mine after 18 years of development with much professional input, but you just never know for sure).

Personally (and for admittedly selfish reasons), what I&#39;d really love to see is a well-tuned 1.8L 16V VW engine do the pull so I could form my own rough idea of whether a 16V Scirocco might stand any chance of being competitive in ITA next year (or in ITB, for that matter).

[lateapex911]

OK, update time.

I think that the concept of this was great, and if the details could have been nailed, it would have been successful.....but.......

There are a few issues that have conspired to cause me to suggest that perhaps this is something for next spring-

1- Lime Rock needs to be on board with it, and I never heard back from them pro or con. I think a face to face discussion might be in order. I&#39;ll see if that can&#39;t happen, but for now, the response has to be thought of as a "no"

2- The supplier has no way to get the unit to the track, and it is very heavy, and needs to be kept out of the weather. That means renting a truck and all the attendent hassles. (think time and money) Perhaps when we have more time to line up the details, and perhaps enlist interested volunteers, this issue can be resolved.

3- least important, but as I was the guy doing some of the legwork, and I have a wedding that I&#39;m attending that day, I was going to be in a bit of conflict timewise.


So, I&#39;ll take the info I&#39;ve gotten here, contact the vendor and come up with a loose financial plan so we can look at doing this next spring.

I&#39;ll restart this thread, or another and get peoples interest and commitments then. once we know the season schedule, we can decide the event.

Sorry! it would have been fun!

[gran racing]

Well gee Jake, if it&#39;s happening next Spring then I guess I&#39;ll have to participate too with my new killer car. :P

[RSTPerformance]

I think it will be hard to get all the top players in one place at one time... the NARRC runoffs ushually is the only race that does this. maybe you can get it lined up for the 2007 NARRC Runoffs.

Thanks for the try!!! and skip the wedding :birra:

Raymond