Progression from I.T.

[rob22]

Those looking for the next step up in speed, might consider moving to a GT-1, GTA type Road Race stock car.
Much more affordable than you might think. For example, you can purchase an ex ASA perimeter frame
stock car (easily converted to road race config.) complete with race prepped LS-1 chevy and Jerico trans for 13,000-20000 dollars. New Goodyear short track tires are about 100 bucks, suspension pieces are massed produced and relatively cheap. Other perimeter frame cars with 500-600 hp are similarly available.
These cars are easy to work on, very strong and offer 180 mph capability.

The V8 Stockcar series which runs in conjuntion with CFR SCCA and other regions offer big fields and great fun at the best tracks in the country. Look at the numbers in the GT Field of late in CFR.

For more information about running these type of beasts, check out V8 stockcar.com

"Bosco" Logsdon

[RSTPerformance]

Those looking for the next step up in speed, might consider moving to a GT-1, GTA type Road Race stock car.
Much more affordable than you might think. For example, you can purchase an ex ASA perimeter frame
stock car (easily converted to road race config.) complete with race prepped LS-1 chevy and Jerico trans for 13,000-20000 dollars. New Goodyear short track tires are about 100 bucks, suspension pieces are massed produced and relatively cheap. Other perimeter frame cars with 500-600 hp are similarly available.
These cars are easy to work on, very strong and offer 180 mph capability.

The V8 Stockcar series which runs in conjuntion with CFR SCCA and other regions offer big fields and great fun at the best tracks in the country. Look at the numbers in the GT Field of late in CFR.

For more information about running these type of beasts, check out V8 stockcar.com

"Bosco" Logsdon
[/b]


ah... ok :wacko: The AS mustang we had was mid pack and it cost us 22K one year and 21K the next to run. Granted initial costs are not a lot but I think operating costs are much higher...

[rob22]

RST- I am very familiar with A/S cars and they are actually much more expensive to race than these stockcars. They burn down stock parts never intentioned to be raced at an alarming rate. Calipers, trannys, rotors, rear ends. They are pretty fast, but very heavy. The Hoosier tires are expensive, they eat brake pads. IMHO, not a great class to race.

I get 10-25 lap short track medium compound tires from a oval track friend for 30-50 bucks and they last at least two weekends. They are only 100 bucks new!!!

I've run for a year with no motor, clutch, tranny (jerico), or rear end problem (winters Q/C).

We were able to buy a 650 hp Lozano Bros small block for less than you can buy a Huffaker Spec Miata motor.

We freshened the Jerico for 500 bucks, it is the best shifting, least troublesome tranny I have ever raced.
This early Jerico was built around 1988.

There are guys running ex late model stock car with 400 hp ($4000 new) crate motors running laps at Daytona in the 2.03 to 2.04 range.

Outstanding bang for the buck and nothing like A/S racing.

Bosco

[Knestis]

Bosco here is actually not far off. We did a comprehensive cost analysis for a guy back in the mid '80s and this was a surprisingly affordable option. If TransAm would adopt the NASCAR "touring" series rules (essentially GTA), it would be viable pro series.

K

[tom_sprecher]

I also considered an ASA or similar asphalt circle track car to be run as GT1 or SPO before I realized my experience level and my wallet would not allow it at this time. Purpose built race cars can be cheaper to run than a overstressed production based race car. Especially on brakes and trans components. Plus the shear number of inexpensive and available circle track parts and used race cars is incredible.

A buddy got out of an AS Camero (he claims) due mainly to the cost of replacing rotors.

[matt batson]

I am intrigued...at the thought of driving something so fast for so cheap....

My concerns are this...

- 13 to 20K for a car is quited a bit more then I have laying around...and this is for a car that still needs to be converted to road race.

- I wonder how heavy these cars are, how cumbersome they are to drive ( I like nimble cars)...and with the extra weight and huge hp, what my fuel costs would be for the season.

- My tires currently last about 6 weekends or more (light car, low hp)...so my tire budget would be double or more

- My front brakes have lasted for over a season, and that is the brake pads!!!!!(carbotech's)... and the discs are still like new; will probably last two or three seasons.

- I havent had any problem with any "production" parts on my car. Heck, I havent even looked at the wheel bearings and my car had over 100,000 street miles before being converted. (dont know if I should be admitting that... :unsure: )

Personally, I think...for myself anyways, that my progression will be to spec miata. The talent runs deep in that class, the cars are pretty similar (relatively speaking), and if you can do well in this class you can possibly find a pro ride.

On the other hand... :rolleyes:
If your looking to maybe get into Nascar....I would imagine this is a good area to be in. I know boris said and max papis have done pretty well with this. And, holy cow, is that where the money is...

Of course, what are the odds of making it to the big time :bash_1_:

[matt batson]

actually, have you heard of anyone in gt-1 or GTA moving up to the big time?

[Z3_GoCar]

I am intrigued...at the thought of driving something so fast for so cheap....

.....
Personally, I think...for myself anyways, that my progression will be to spec miata. The talent runs deep in that class, the cars are pretty similar (relatively speaking), and if you can do well in this class you can possibly find a pro ride.

On the other hand... :rolleyes:
If your looking to maybe get into Nascar....I would imagine this is a good area to be in. I know boris said and max papis have done pretty well with this. And, holy cow, is that where the money is...

Of course, what are the odds of making it to the big time :bash_1_:
[/b]

I know of one former Spec Miata Driver that's made the big time, Justin Hall. He's last years West Coast Pro-Series winner and placed 3rd over all at Road Antlanta. This year he's running in Grand Am, in an e-46 325. He's made the camera a few times, but no wins. He did make the Hole Shot award at Ft. Lauderdale thought. I can tell it's not been an easy transistion....

[Ken Grammer]

There are actually a number of SM guys that have made one or more apearances in Grand-AM Cup or World Challenge after running SM or the SCCA Pro Miata Cup series. I know I will leave some names out, but just off the top of my head I can think of these names:

Payton Wilson
Tom Long
Shawn Dewey
Ryan Pilla
Chip Herr
Todd Buras
Mike Halpin
Ken Dobson
Herb Sweeney
Patrick Dempsey

As I said, I know there are more but I'm working off of memory here... which leaves a LOT to be desired! :)

Now if you want a truly long list of names, start looking at the names of peopel who moved up from IT!

[lateapex911]

Eric Curaan is a guy who comes to mind. And of course, Randy Pobst started in autocrossing,,and has turned a wheel in ITB, right Peter?? LOL. EF Robinson did lots of time in SCCA, but before IT I think!.

I don't know what Randy makes a year, but IIRC, Eric is a busy guy...still has his day job..at least he did a bit a go. So while the rides are tough, the money is tougher to come by.

[matt batson]

I know there are several from spec miata...
I also know they prolly arent making a whole lot of money either...

It is difficult, highly competitive, and when all is said and done, there really isnt much money in road racing, except maybe F1

So, I was wondering if anyone has made the transition from GTA to Busch or Nascar? Any success stories there? This, unfortunately, is where all of the money is...
I'm still amazed when I hear about some guy who usually places out of the top ten, or even twenty, yet is still a millionare....

[Ken Grammer]

When I joined Syngery Racing at the end of 2004 we were running Brad Coleman in IMSA's Star MAzda series. Brad went on in 2005 to be part of "Team 16" in the Rolex series and have some inpressive showing. in 2005 he ran a local weekly round track series to get experience in stock cars. This year he's taking names in ASA (poles, wins, etc.). He's had a couple of impressive Busch runs already as well.

So while he started in open wheel cars, he's one example of a driver who is making a VERY inpressive transition from road racing to stock cars.

Not quite the question asked... but interesting non the less...

Hmmm.... maybe USERA needs a weekely round track "enduro" :)

[rob22]

I was speaking more in terms of speed when I mentioned progression from I.T.

Let's face it, in North America there is only a handful of road racers that are making more than just a living at it, and even some of them aren't making huge money.

But there are success stories, like Robby Gordon (off road to imsa to cart to nascar), Boris who started in the Corvettte Challenge series, Dorsey Schroeder (spec racers, GT-1, Trans Am, IMSA, Nascar), Tommy Kendall,( SCCA Trans Am, IMSA, a little Nascar) Wally Dallenbach (SCCA, CART, Trans Am, Nascar, TV Booth) Randy Pobst (SCCA ITC rabbit to factory Porsche driver to Audi to anything with wheels.)
Johnny Miller SCCA GT-1 to TA to Nascar on occasion.

TO MATT: My buddy Jeff Bailey has an ex ASA car already converted for sale for about 13-15K depending on the stuff that goes.

So my point is that if you want to go real fast for not too much dough it is possible to do it with one of these
stockcars. Mine weighs 2600 pounds has power steering and now that I am not trying to throw the car around and just letting the car do the work it is much simpler to drive. The acceleration with 650 hp is incredible. But you don't have to have that much power to lap these type cars fast. Mine just spins the tires a lot off the corner. Still working on forward bite. One of these cars will fly with about 450 hp.

My tire bill is way down over my ITS or EP Z Car. Believe it or not this car costs about the same to race as the others I just mentioned per weekend. (800 doll. hoosier DOT's)

Just something for you to consider.

Bosco

[BobsAuto]

All these guys you mentioned that have come out of SCCA worked hard to sell themselves to the media. The Wall family transitioned from IT to AS to local Busch North to one or two Busch Grand National. John used to tell me it was a full time job in itself to pound the pavement to sell themselves. Those who have made it big have had the $$ to promote. Promote, promote, promote. That is the key. All it takes is tiime and $, but actually, the promotion can be done with more time than money. Selling oneself is the key. Good resume and portfolio, knowing the press around your area, and getting ANY free radio and TV air time you can find. And having a good sponsor to help you with that promotion helps as well.

[rob22]

Good point Bob. Those that have succeeded have tirelessly promoted themselves or they would not have made it.

Matt, if your goal is making big money in the sport then you need to be oval track racing. Local late models, to ASA late models, To hooters, on up.

If your heart is in road racing stick with it, take bob's advice above and get as much track time as you can.
Drive anything, like Randy did and still does. (A true grassroots hero) still giving back to the little guys.

[BobsAuto]

By the way, this is Trish....I'm the computer literate of the two. And the ex-road-racer and Mom to Raymond and Stephen (Audi's in ITB).

[Dano77]

This topic was brought up last year on the norteast site. Its not about who made /makes more money at raceing. Its all about how cheap we can race. with ITA cars going for 22k, a good used roller can be bought f
or about 5 grand. motors from summit are 3200 to 4900 depending on power level.
The big problem is nobody wants to step up,its not a known product. you actually need pateince when converting the car. Lefthander chassis has no idea what to sell you when you ask"what control arm do i need for the right side"Thats not their deal. And every one sells stuff for a small block Chevy,just not my small block Chevy....
That being said,The cars are a blast to drive,run on pump gas,{not legal fuel per GCR,ask my Mom}tires are in fact 100$ & 375 horse is about all you can use at NHIS,otherwise it spins the tires.
Any body now if Benspeeds car is done & if he will be at the Sept reginal at NHIS./ cant wait to race against an other IT guy. Low car counts up here
If any one has a question just dropme a note & I'll get back to you.
Dan Sheppard
99 SPO Monte Carlo (masively improved touring)

[rob22]

SORRY TRISH- I didn't have my good eye open.

With regard to the conversion pieces, HOWE racing is more acquainted with road race conversion as they are the one that developed the GTA chassis, and the road race front clip.

My car is a purpose built Port City road race car, that then had the HOWE GTA front clip added.
The chassis was commissioned by the Spirit of Daytona team (Flis Motorsports) to run the aborted Grand Am
LR series (left-right). I bought the bare chassis from them and had Woody at BEMCO fabrication finish the car.

The car is five weekends old and we are just now getting a good handle on it. Had to change front sway bar, springs, and send the shocks back to pro shock for revalving. Much better.
In March at Moroso in a 20- car or so GT-1 and SPO field we finsihed 4th OA and first in V8 stockcar.
The first three were all true GT-1's with 16" wheels-tires and wings, downforce bodies etc.

The power is intoxicating and it is hard to get back in the ITS car.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Dano,

Ben ran at the Glen and is here at LRP this weekend.

[BobsAuto]

IMHO, it would be interesting if someone could actually get a hold of one of the front runner NEXTEL cup road racing chassis and run it in SCCA. I have often heard that teams will sell off older models at cheaper $ if one were to keep the sponsor's names on. (Granted, this is only hearsay, but when talking with some of the folks that I used to work with when I worked with NASCAR folks, that used to be the case) They would actually work with someone to develop the chassis and learn from them for the road courses. Then again, that was back when they first started running the road courses.

[rob22]

Trish, there are a bunch of them out there running with the HSCRG, historic stock car racing group, started I believe by Gene Felton (Ex Imsa star)

They raced last november at Daytona with HSR and a couple of them were only about 2 seconds of the SCCA National GT-1 winning time from May of this year. Many have full up to date nextel cup motors and are very well driven.

Gene Felton had his Ex Kevin Harvick car at Sebring last year and he was very quick. Gene must be about 70 and is still very fast.

Bosco

[matt batson]

I have to admit Rob, it sounds pretty good...'
Especially with the tire costs...

If I see any at nashville in two weeks, I will have to go over and ask some questions...

13 to 15k for a car ready to go is about what I would have to spend with a spec miata...

With the tire spin, they dont allow LSD's?

Is there a forum or website you would recommend for research into this?

[rob22]

Mine is a winters quick change with a Detroit Locker, about as good as you can get. However the massive amount of torque can melt tires.

It can be managed with the right set up and the driver using the throttle properly.

Come on over to the V8stockcar website, register and get on the forum. Take your time, learn about these cars and decide if it might be for you.

In addition to the Ex ASA cars still out there, another affordable set up would be to find a good super late model chassis roller, get you a 400 hp chevy cirlcle track race motor from GM performance parts, add a freshened road race jerico 4 speed, some road race shocks and springs and you got a pretty potent package for not too much. A lot less than a new ITR car.

It wouldn't be for everybody, some like their race cars with more finesse, some like a hammer.

[BobsAuto]

Sounds interesting for someone who enjoys the feel of the big bore cars at little cost. I often have people asking about it and had no idea where to send them until now. Thanks, now I can sound sort of intelligient instead of blonde.... :rolleyes: and grey.

[its66]

Trish, there are a bunch of them out there running with the HSCRG, historic stock car racing group, started I believe by Gene Felton (Ex Imsa star)
<deleted>
Gene Felton had his Ex Kevin Harvick car at Sebring last year and he was very quick. Gene must be about 70 and is still very fast.

Bosco
[/b]

Slightly off subject, but speaking of Gene....


The "Seniors for Survivors" Race Team will be raising money and awareness for the American Cancer Society at the Virgina International Raceway 13 hour on November 4, 2006. Seniors for Survivors are part of the American Cancer Society&#39;s Relay for Life, which encompasses a wide variety of events fundraising to support the fight against cancer.

Made up of some of the most decorated champions in the sport of auto racing, this team of Senior Drivers will raise money to support research and awareness for Breast Cancer and Lymphoma. Three time Indy 500 winner Bobby Unser will join former champions Tony Adomowicz,Gene Felton,Buzz Marcus and co-sponsor Paul Mears Jr.(Mears Motorcoach) on team Seniors for Survivors.

Anyone interested in donations or pledges, PM me for details.

[benspeed]

This is a great topic. I was really getting tired of running an ITS RX7 and regularly having mysterious and difficult to diagnos/fix problems. I looked at the other top running ITS cars and saw BMW guys dropping valves, 944 guys spending huge money on motors and in general seeing street cars converted to road racing having mechanical problems - the closer to the front, the more problems. Production cars seem to be a dying breed and Touring is very expensive and has all the OBDII electronics to worry about. GT seemed like the place to go.

I decided to research what would be a good type of car to race that would give huge exhilieration from driving and reliability. The competition also needed to be there. I found some of the ex ASA national touring cars which look just like a Nextel cup car but are only 2,600 pounds (mines 2550 without me in it) and learned about the GTA series down south. For $12K I bought a nearly brand new car - very sweet deal. I paid $3K to convert it to road racing - the shop claimed they knew what they were doing.

During the first test the car had a front left component failure and I hit the wall hard. I brought the car down to Hamke in Mooresville NC and had it professional converted to road racing with a new front clip. They also re-did the rear which has also been improperly setup by the local shop in NJ. Now I&#39;m into the car for $25K total. I was able to fix the car - the ITS car would have been a total write off and I doubt I&#39;d have walked away from that crash in the Mazda.

The car is beyond fun to drive - way more exciting than the ITS car. It handles wonderfully and has great brakes and more power than I know what to do with. Parts are super inexpensive, the complexity of diagnosing/fixing problems is very simple and the cars are purpose built race cars that are easy to work on. Heck, even I can change a clutch in this car. (Fried it at LRP this weekend). The motor is a fuel injected LS1 - no carbs to mess with. Makes somewhere between 430-500hp.

The experience driving this car is way more fun than my ITS car. It is much more of a pain to load and unload - that part stinks but now that I have a winch and have gotten used to the new load/unload process it&#39;s not so bad. I have a ton to learn on how to drive with this much power. My lines are different at LRP and the stocker doesn&#39;t like the curbs or the rumbles - gets it loose and loose is not good in this type of car. I have to be smoother, gentler on the turn in and gentley but firmly feed in the power. I tend to dive in deep under braking - this kind of car does better with a faster exit. Need to adjust my style.

I was able to run 1:01s at LRP with 6 year old tires that are rock hard. I figure with some decent tires and a few test days I should get down into the 58 range at LRP. Right off the trailer and the same old tires I ran 2:07 at Watkins Glenn without running 10/10ths. That was HUGE FUN.

The only thing missing is the competition. There are very few stock cars here in the NE but I predict this will be a big growth class with many cars available. I&#39;m in SPO as I see that as the NASCAR class and will try to run for the SPO points next year. Following that I&#39;ll beef up the motor, add bigger brakes and go GT1 racing.

Another point - there was a fatality at NHIS last year - E36 BMW I believe. That car was similarly prepared to my Mazda and this really weighed on my mind and I wanted to improve my personal safety. I like that the stocker is built like a vault and I feel that I have increased my personal safety driving this type of car. Granted it&#39;s much faster but it has outstanding safety features.

Great package and I love this car much more that my old Mazda (friggin tin can piece of #@$@#$% but fast when they run right.)

If your looking to move from IT into something even more fun - look at these ASA/GTA stock cars.

Cheers,

[rob22]

Ben, thanks for your perspective. Will you be coming down to race at Roebling, Sebring, Daytona etc. with V8 stockcar? Come join the fun!

Bosco

[benspeed]

Hey Boscoe - travelling that far south is unlikely. Just too long of a haul. Maybe the ARRC this year. Propbably VIR in March next year. Still need to figure this thing out before I run with you guys competitively. Although I was close to Brian Dobyns at the Glen and I understand he&#39;s a front runner down in SARRC country.

Hope to see more folks recognizing this is a top racing class for many reasons.

Cheers,

Ben

[Butch Kummer]

I came at this from the opposite direction. After running GT-1 with a number of Corvettes over the years, I finally "commissioned" a National-level GT-1 car from (Johnny) Miller Racing back in 2000. I went to the Runoffs that year, then ran the car on average 4-5 weekends for the next four years. Although very exhilarating, I found out quickly that while I had the budget to purchase such a vehicle (thanks to a good career choice back in 1994), the cost of actually running that car regularly enough to become proficient with it was beyond my financial means. In 2005 I worked a deal with a buddy to swap the (broken due a renter&#39;s misjudgement) GT-1 Corvette for a front-running GTA Monte Carlo. Best move I&#39;ve ever made.

GTA has been big on the Left Coast for a number of years, and ironically was created (Mitch Wright of World Challenge fame had major influence in the process) as the "next step" for guys tired of fixing ITS cars all the time. The class (which also now allows the ex-ASA cars with the LS-1 engines) has since been recognized as a SARRC class and we run at the ARRC each year as well. Following the rules (which not everyone does, but that&#39;s why we have a protest procedure) limits you to about 500 hp and 2800 pounds on 10" wide slicks. I&#39;ve run 1:33&#39;s at Road Atlanta and 2:01&#39;s at Daytona with a top end of 162 and 177 mph respectively. And because this car cost 25% of what the GT-1 car did to operate, I can essentially race twice as much on half the budget.

Do I miss the unbridled speed of the to-the-limit GT-1 Corvette? Yes. But I also learned more about racecraft in four months of driving the GTA car than I did in four years of driving the Corvette because I couldn&#39;t depend on raw horsepower (or braking or cornering) to complete the pass. And since the cars are so much more economical to operate, there are a lot more people in the same performance range to race with. In short, driving the Monte Carlo is more fun than waxing the Corvette.

Matt Baston (and anyone else that may be interested) - I will be at Nashville in two weeks with my "traditional" GTA car plus a customer&#39;s converted ASA car, so be sure and stop by for a "tour". GTA #57, black (and pink and lavender) Monte Carlo and the black #23 Budweiser car.

Butch Kummer
BK Racing

[matt batson]

yep, I&#39;m interested.
I&#39;m registered for the race, just hoping my car gets out of the shop in time.
I will definitely come over to chat and learn about the car&#39;s.

I&#39;ve been out on the v8stockcars website and forum. Been checking out the classifieds. Most on the forum seem very helpful.

[rob22]

For those interested in seeing the V8 stockcar series run, we will be at Sebring this weekend, Sept. 2 and 3, there are about 30 V8 stockcars and V8 GT-1&#39;s entered. The group will practice and qualify on saturday, with two races on Sunday.

Come out and check it out.

Bosco

[terry]

Any of the cars running in the northwest?

[anthonywill3]

Those looking for the next step up in speed, might consider moving to a GT-1, GTA type Road Race stock car.
Much more affordable than you might think. For example, you can purchase an ex ASA perimeter frame
stock car (easily converted to road race config.) complete with race prepped LS-1 chevy and Jerico trans for 13,000-20000 dollars. New Goodyear short track tires are about 100 bucks, suspension pieces are massed produced and relatively cheap. Other perimeter frame cars with 500-600 hp are similarly available.
These cars are easy to work on, very strong and offer 180 mph capability.

The V8 Stockcar series which runs in conjuntion with CFR SCCA and other regions offer big fields and great fun at the best tracks in the country. Look at the numbers in the GT Field of late in CFR.

For more information about running these type of beasts, check out V8 stockcar.com

"Bosco" Logsdon
[/b]

HAve you considered open wheel? I went from an ITS e30 BMW last year (3 whole races, so I consider myself still a "rrookie") and went into a Formula Continental this year. If you are looking for a step up in speed, there is not much else that goes faster around the track (except a Formula Atlantic). The cars are a lot more affordable than you might think, they are way more pleasurable to work on, and can you say a whole season on one set of pads/rotors? And talk about FUN to drive! The cars are amazing.I feel safer in the car (purpose built racecar, enginered to be safe), and so far my costs are about in line with what I spent per weekend in my ITS car. Dont flame me for going to the "dark side", I love my sports cars/sedans/doorslammers, but I have to tell you, I dont think I would ever go back to a full bodied car (unless I wasnt paying the bill, then I would think about it). And you are lapping quicker than those 600hp monsters out there with your little 2 litre "pinto" engine...

[rob22]

No doubt, another good option and on some tracks FC and FA cars are the quickest racers out there. But not everywhere, Sebring long, and Daytona a national GT-1 car is quicker. Beau Borders, son of long time GT-1 racer Robert Borders just went to an FM and said it was amazing to Drive. He had been running a GT2
RX7.


With regard to running in the northwest, V8 stockcar does not. However the GTA series runs out there with similar cars. ASA types chassis with 500 hp small block chevy&#39;s.


Bosco